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ZULU

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  • bvogler
    List- Anyone who wants a break from bowl games, the movie Zulu is on tonight at 8 pm on AMC. Why us Colour Sergeant, why us? Because it s us, lad, just
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 1, 2004
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      List-
      Anyone who wants a break from bowl games, the movie "Zulu" is on tonight at 8 pm on AMC.

      "Why us Colour Sergeant, why us?"
      "Because it's us, lad, just us... no one else."

      And so it goes,
      Bob V.
      Pensioner
      Guards

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mark Crosby
      Bob, Don t forget this one.... If it is a miracle, color sargent, its a short chamber Henry .45 caliber miracle. And a Bayonet, sir.....with some guts behind
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 1, 2004
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        Bob,
        Don't forget this one....
        If it is a miracle, color sargent, its a short chamber Henry .45
        caliber miracle."
        And a Bayonet, sir.....with some guts behind it."

        or

        "Independent Fire! Fire at will!"
        "That's mighty nice of 'em."

        Mark Crosby




        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bvogler" <bvogler@k...> wrote:
        > List-
        > Anyone who wants a break from bowl games, the movie "Zulu" is on
        tonight at 8 pm on AMC.
        >
        > "Why us Colour Sergeant, why us?"
        > "Because it's us, lad, just us... no one else."
        >
        > And so it goes,
        > Bob V.
        > Pensioner
        > Guards
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • JOEWHITNEY@AOL.COM
        My favorite quote wasn t in the movie. It was from Chard s report to Queen Victoria: Major Spalding told me he was going over to Helpmakaar, and would see
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 1, 2004
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          My favorite quote wasn't in the movie. It was from Chard's report to Queen
          Victoria:

          Major Spalding told me he was going over to Helpmakaar, and would see about
          getting it (Capt. Rainforth's Company) down at once. Just as I was about to
          ride away he said to me 'Which of you is senior, you or Bromhead?" I said " I
          don't know" - he went back to his tent, looked at the Army List, and coming back,
          said "I see you are senior, so you will be in charge, although of course,
          nothing will happen, and I shall be back again this evening early."


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • izzy
          ah, yes, ZULU-- back in 1986 in High School when girls my age were watching, um, whatever were the hot chick-flicks of 1986... i was watching ZULU... and Monty
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 1, 2004
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            ah, yes, ZULU-- back in 1986 in High School when girls my age were
            watching, um, whatever were the hot chick-flicks of 1986... i was
            watching ZULU... and Monty Python movies...

            a few years back at a friend's house, her dad was watching ZULU in
            the other room-- i could identify it from the Zulu chanting ("hang
            on... is that ZULU?")

            found it at Walgreen's on DVD for about $5

            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bvogler" <bvogler@k...> wrote:
            > List-
            > Anyone who wants a break from bowl games, the movie "Zulu" is on
            tonight at 8 pm on AMC.
            >
            > "Why us Colour Sergeant, why us?"
            > "Because it's us, lad, just us... no one else."
            >
            > And so it goes,
            > Bob V.
            > Pensioner
            > Guards
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • JOEWHITNEY@AOL.COM
            Speaking of Monty Python, this has nothing to do with the Revolutionary War, other than it s a subject dear to reenactors of all time periods, but Eric Idle is
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 1, 2004
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              Speaking of Monty Python, this has nothing to do with the Revolutionary
              War, other than it's a subject dear to reenactors of all time periods, but
              Eric Idle is hoping to bring to Broadway in Spring 2005 the musical
              version of the Holy Grail, tentatively titled "Spamelot".

              Of course, they could have spoofed the Revolution, but Mel Gibson beat
              them to it. So we should soon be able to see real live English Knigghets
              running around on stage. It should be quite a treat (oops, I spoke the
              word that cannot be spoken!)


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Joyce & Mike Barbieri
              ... tonight at 8 pm on AMC. ... To bring this topic back to relevance within this list, at the bicentennial of Monmouth, the organizers set up a huge screen to
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bvogler" <bvogler@k...> wrote:
                > List-
                > Anyone who wants a break from bowl games, the movie "Zulu" is on
                tonight at 8 pm on AMC.
                >
                > "Why us Colour Sergeant, why us?"
                > "Because it's us, lad, just us... no one else."


                To bring this topic back to relevance within this list, at the
                bicentennial of Monmouth, the organizers set up a huge screen to show
                a movie for the participants--we had no idea what movie. About three
                notes of the opening score of "ZULU" came out of the speakers before
                the crowd let out a huge cheer. The next day, as the Crown forces
                column moved past the Americans on their way out to the field, droves
                of us began chanting "Uthulu"--or something to that effect--can't
                remember exactly but it is/was not "Zulu." Great fun!

                Mike Barbieri
                Whitcomb's Corps
              • gstk1776
                Dear List, For those wondering what ZULU has to do with our period...... Lieutenant General Sir Gonville Bromhead Born 30th September 1758, educated
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                  Dear List,

                  For those wondering what ZULU has to do with our period......

                  Lieutenant General Sir Gonville Bromhead

                  Born 30th September 1758, educated Winchester; entered Army aged 15.
                  62nd Foot:
                  Ensign - 1st June 1774; Lieutenant - 3rd March 1776 (wounded and
                  captured at Saratoga); Captain - 30 May 1786; Lieutenant Colonel -
                  26th November 1794 (half pay - 1800).
                  126th Foot, Lochaber (Cameron's) Fencible Infantry:
                  Colonel - 1st January 1801.
                  Major General 25th April 1808; Lieutenant General 4th June 1813.
                  Created Baronet - 19 February 1806; died 18 May 1822.

                  And talking of "Gibsoning" history.....

                  * The 1879 Bromhead was almost totally deaf, which was why he had
                  been left in charge at Rorke's Drift; both he and Chard remained in
                  the Army for many years (despite their constant anti-war dialogues in
                  the film).
                  * Colour Sergeant Bourne was only 24.
                  * Commissary Dalton - a former infantry sergeant-major, who had been
                  trained in the construction of field defences - designed the "mealie
                  bag redoubt".
                  * Reprobate Pvte Henry Hook was, in real life, tee-total and a
                  Methodist lay preacher, and left the Army with an exemplary record (I
                  believe his family threatened to sue the makers of the film).
                  * Only a dozen men were Welsh; most were English from the Midlands,
                  as the 24th Foot was the 2nd Warwickshire Regiment in 1879 and only
                  became the South Wales Borderers in the Cardwell Reform of 1881.
                  * It is likely that everyone was bearded (shaving was abandoned
                  throughout Chelmsford's force to conserve water).
                  * The Zulus attacking Rorke's Drift were not from Isandlwhana; they
                  were a separate group detached from the main body specifically to
                  attack Rorke's Drift; although they had about 500 firearms, most were
                  obsolete types and not taken from the dead of the 1/24th.

                  Hope that was of interest.

                  Brendan Morrissey
                • Jay Callaham
                  ... From: gstk1776 To: Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 7:18 AM Subject: [Revlist] Re: ZULU ... So, the movie
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "gstk1776" <gstk1776@...>
                    To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 7:18 AM
                    Subject: [Revlist] Re: ZULU


                    > Dear List,
                    >
                    > For those wondering what ZULU has to do with our period......
                    >
                    > Lieutenant General Sir Gonville Bromhead
                    >
                    > Born 30th September 1758,

                    So, the movie was also wrong when Bromhead said that his grandfather "knelt
                    beside Wolfe at Quebec."

                    Also, the good Surgeon Reynolds, who was so anti-"butchers" in the movie, in
                    reality, shortly after the battle collected a pair of very calloused,
                    "almost like wood," soles from the feet of a dead Zulu as a souvenir.

                    And the Boer - Adendorf - disappeared before the battle even started.

                    And, "Durnford's Horse" whose commander said "I know what my men think of
                    Zulus" - was in reality a black unit.

                    Don't get your history from movies. Enjoy them, but don't trust them.

                    Cheers!

                    Jay
                    Cm Gds
                    4th Coy, Bde of Guards
                  • davisr1@lee.army.mil
                    There was one incident in the movie (whether accurate or not) that I have used frequently to illustrate to this less than desirably disciplined modern army ,
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                      There was one incident in the movie (whether accurate or not) that I have
                      used frequently to illustrate to this "less than desirably disciplined
                      modern army", that it is battlefield discipline that is so imperative to
                      winning. The scene was along the perimeter as this company of terrified
                      British soldiers are awaiting another attack by 500-godzillion Zulu's. The
                      Color Sergeant is strutting the line and remarks to one soldier "Jones
                      (whatever the soldier's name was), button your pocket!" The fear of the
                      troops was immediately diverted from the enemy to the
                      retribution/disciplinary control of the Color Sergeant, ergo: "the immediate
                      and unhesitating response to orders." The well trained and disciplined
                      soldier can and will respond to leaders orders, even under the most severe
                      of circumstances. This later played out (in the movie) when the Brits were
                      ordered to attack with their "rolling fire" formation - though totally
                      outmanned, the trained discipline gave them an overwhelming fire-power
                      advantage over their out-numbering enemy. An unbuttoned pocket may seem to
                      be an inconsequential observation, however it is not the pocket, but the
                      response to the correction -- the order -- that is imperative. We can find
                      this all over our period of the Rev War, and most other wars.

                      Bob D.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Jay Callaham [mailto:callaham@...]
                      Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 9:03 AM
                      To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: ZULU

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "gstk1776" <gstk1776@...>
                      To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 7:18 AM
                      Subject: [Revlist] Re: ZULU


                      > Dear List,
                      >
                      > For those wondering what ZULU has to do with our period......
                      >
                      > Lieutenant General Sir Gonville Bromhead
                      >
                      > Born 30th September 1758,

                      So, the movie was also wrong when Bromhead said that his grandfather "knelt
                      beside Wolfe at Quebec."

                      Also, the good Surgeon Reynolds, who was so anti-"butchers" in the movie, in
                      reality, shortly after the battle collected a pair of very calloused,
                      "almost like wood," soles from the feet of a dead Zulu as a souvenir.

                      And the Boer - Adendorf - disappeared before the battle even started.

                      And, "Durnford's Horse" whose commander said "I know what my men think of
                      Zulus" - was in reality a black unit.

                      Don't get your history from movies. Enjoy them, but don't trust them.

                      Cheers!

                      Jay
                      Cm Gds
                      4th Coy, Bde of Guards



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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John Welsh
                      Fire power determines tactics. Using old tactics with advances in firepower caused massacres in the Civil War, WWI especially. ... From:
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                        Fire power determines tactics. Using old tactics with advances in firepower
                        caused massacres in the Civil War, WWI especially.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <JOEWHITNEY@...>
                        To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:15 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: ZULU


                        > Well, let's see: linear tactics? How about British Army fighting locals
                        who
                        > want independence, and for occupation forces to get out? Everything's
                        connected
                        > somehow, you know.
                        >
                        > On the other hand, this time, the British Army didn't get it's butt kicked
                        > this time. But they did eventually lose that colony, too. Some lessons
                        have to
                        > be learned over and over again (have we learned yet?)
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList
                        member photos, FAQ, etc., at
                        >
                        > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                        >
                        > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
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                        > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • John Welsh
                        The 24th Welsh Borders was a Welsh regiment. Ich dien...I serve. Nadolig Llawen...Merry Christmas! For more on Roarke s drift and the campaign read Washing of
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                          The 24th Welsh Borders was a Welsh regiment. Ich dien...I serve. Nadolig
                          Llawen...Merry Christmas! For more on Roarke's drift and the campaign read
                          Washing of the Spears.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <JOEWHITNEY@...>
                          To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 8:41 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: ZULU


                          > As I recall, the movie's battle scenes were also completely inaccurate in
                          > showing the Zulus stupidly charging en masse, only to be mowed down. In
                          reality,
                          > they all crawled forward through the grass, and only stood up just before
                          > assualting the defences, which makes the British victory even more
                          miraculous.
                          >
                          > The director needed to show the Zulu extras how he wanted them to act, so
                          he
                          > had them all view a John Huston western, and told them to act like the
                          indians.
                          >
                          > The emphasis on Welshmen probably sprang from the fact that Baker was born
                          in
                          > a Welsh village.
                          >
                          > Hook's descendants now have their chance to correct the wrongs done to his
                          > reputation, since his grandson runs an excellent Rourke's Drift website.
                          >
                          > The movie Zulu Dawn presented a much more accurate picture of the period
                          > tactics, including sending a boy out to install distance markers just
                          prior to a
                          > battle. This allowed the men to make good use of their adjustable range
                          sights.
                          >
                          > "...droves of us began chanting "Uthulu"--or something to that effect."
                          Could
                          > it have been "Ulundi", the Zulu "capital"?
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList
                          member photos, FAQ, etc., at
                          >
                          > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                          >
                          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
                          > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • eric_schnitzer@nps.gov
                          I don t have a Bromhead family tree, but a likely closer relation to our Gonville Bromhead of the 62d Regiment in the 1777 northern campaign was the major of
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                            I don't have a Bromhead family tree, but a likely closer relation to our
                            Gonville Bromhead of the 62d Regiment in the 1777 northern campaign was the
                            major of the Regiment, Boardman Bromhead. Well, make that major of the
                            regiment up until c. 1770/71 or so. Probably an uncle...or his father.
                            Little Gonville, age 12, entered the officer corps at that time as the
                            quarter master of the regiment (he was later commissioned at about age 15
                            as an ensign).

                            I am,
                            Your Most Humble Servant,
                            Eric Schnitzer
                            Lieutenant, 62d Regiment of Foot and ADC

                            "The rebel officers' behavior is admirable; their discipline is just as good
                            as though they belonged to real regiments and were real soldiers."

                            -Brigadier WR von Gall to The Prince of Hessen-Hanau,
                            Cambridge MA, March 1778


                            >
                            > So, the movie was also wrong when Bromhead said that his
                            > grandfather "knelt beside Wolfe at Quebec."
                            >

                            Jay and List,

                            Unless of course he was one of the guys who bought a place in
                            Benjamin West's famous painting (isn't that a crib just behind the
                            Indian next to Wolfe's feet????).

                            Another ancestor, the Rev. Edward Bromhead, was Chaplain of the 27th
                            Foot in the 1770s, but I haven't been able to find out if he went to
                            America with his regiment.

                            Regards

                            Brendan Morrissey

                            ps: I think that the cry everyone is talking about is "Usuthu!"
                            ("Kill!").
                          • John White
                            Joe The cry uttered by the Zulu warriors was USUTHU. A little internet search finds that was the name of Cetshwayo s chiefdom. Go to
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                              Joe

                              The cry uttered by the Zulu warriors was USUTHU. A little internet
                              search finds that was the name of Cetshwayo's chiefdom. Go to
                              http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Rotunda/2209/Zululand.html

                              If I recall correctly, the USUTHU info was passed on to me by a fellow
                              reenactor who spent several years with our state department working in
                              Zululand.

                              (We REALLY should get back to the 18th century), he said somewhat
                              reluctantly.


                              John White
                              Avalon Forge
                              Baltimore
                              "All Manner of Replicas for Living History"
                              http://www.avalonforge.com

                              JOEWHITNEY@... wrote:
                              > As I recall, the movie's battle scenes were also completely inaccurate in
                              > showing the Zulus stupidly charging en masse, only to be mowed down. In reality,
                              > they all crawled forward through the grass, and only stood up just before
                              > assualting the defences, which makes the British victory even more miraculous.
                              >
                              > The director needed to show the Zulu extras how he wanted them to act, so he
                              > had them all view a John Huston western, and told them to act like the indians.
                              >
                              > The emphasis on Welshmen probably sprang from the fact that Baker was born in
                              > a Welsh village.
                              >
                              > Hook's descendants now have their chance to correct the wrongs done to his
                              > reputation, since his grandson runs an excellent Rourke's Drift website.
                              >
                              > The movie Zulu Dawn presented a much more accurate picture of the period
                              > tactics, including sending a boy out to install distance markers just prior to a
                              > battle. This allowed the men to make good use of their adjustable range sights.
                              >
                              > "...droves of us began chanting "Uthulu"--or something to that effect." Could
                              > it have been "Ulundi", the Zulu "capital"?
                            • Joyce & Mike Barbieri
                              ... Henris and fire some rounds in the back forty. But $2.50 each it s a bit pricy. ... It makes me want to get out a Martini, Henry. Dry, of course, for Natal
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, GuardsOfc@n... wrote:
                                > All this talk about Zulu make me want to get out one of Martin-
                                Henris and fire some rounds in the back forty. But $2.50 each it's a
                                bit pricy.
                                >
                                > Winston S. Stone
                                > Capt. & Lt. Col.
                                > 1st Guards
                                > Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense


                                It makes me want to get out a Martini, Henry. Dry, of course, for
                                Natal Province. $2.50 isn't bad for one of those rounds.

                                Mike Barbieri
                                Whitcomb's Corps
                              • joewhitney1
                                I ll have to differ on that issue. Professor Paddy Griffith, a senior lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy, wrote a fascinating book called
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                  I'll have to differ on that issue. Professor Paddy Griffith, a senior
                                  lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy, wrote a
                                  fascinating book called "Battle Tactics of the Civil War" where he
                                  analyzed the casualty rates of Napoleonic battles and Civil War
                                  battles. He also looked at the typical distance between firing lines
                                  in earlier wars (like the Revolution; see, there's the tie-in!)and
                                  the Civil War. He discovered that neither the casualties nor
                                  distances were very different. For instance, at Leipzig in 1813,
                                  casualties for the three days of fighting were around 127,000.

                                  I wince every time some "historian" announces on the History
                                  Channel, or reenactor tells the public, that the rifled musket
                                  revolutionized weaponry, because now, "A man could hit a target at a
                                  thousands yards!". In reality, CW battle lines were typically 50 to
                                  100 yards apart, just like earlier wars.

                                  Now, if they'd bothered to teach target practice so the men could
                                  learn how to use their fancy range finding sites, as the Brits did in
                                  Zulu Dawn, it would have been a different matter. Instead, they
                                  emphasized volume of fire over accuracy, resulting in most rounds
                                  sailing over the enemy's heads or burrowing into the ground. However,
                                  the use of percussion caps over flintlocks was certainly an
                                  improvement in reliability and weather resistance. But the Minie ball
                                  was much slower and harder to ram after a few rounds started clogging
                                  the bore. Certainly, the bullet would travel farther, and arrive with
                                  more force, that a round ball, but that apparently didn't have a
                                  great effect on the casualty rate. Now, when repeaters started to
                                  show up late in the war, that's another matter.

                                  In WWI, it was machine guns like the Maxim that caused the massacres.
                                  Its inventor thought it would be so horrendous a weapon that it would
                                  actually prevent wars (where have we heard that before?)
                                • Ernie
                                  Hello, How does one find out about these men? I am trying to find out about Thomas Bartis. All I know from my parents is that he was in the British Army in the
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                    Hello,

                                    How does one find out about these men? I am trying to find out about Thomas Bartis. All I
                                    know from my parents is that he was in the British Army in the 1770's. Is there a way I can find
                                    out about this man without troubling anyone too much?

                                    Thank you,
                                    Ernie Bartis

                                    On 2 Jan 2004 at 19:26, gstk1776 wrote:
                                    > Another ancestor, the Rev. Edward Bromhead, was Chaplain of the 27th
                                    > Foot in the 1770s, but I haven't been able to find out if he went to
                                    > America with his regiment.
                                    >
                                    > Regards
                                    >
                                    > Brendan Morrissey
                                  • John Welsh
                                    Thanks for illuminating another shattered myth. I was in error in using it as an example, though the losses suffered in the Civil War were horrendous compared
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                      Thanks for illuminating another shattered myth. I was in error in using it
                                      as an example, though the losses suffered in the Civil War were horrendous
                                      compared to previous actions. The first "modern" war. The Napoleonic battles
                                      were horrible too, but there were more "Waterloos" fought in the Civil War
                                      than the Napoleonic wars. But weaponry does decide tactical considerations.
                                      The musket made pike phalanxes obsolete and even spelled the doom of cavalry
                                      charges, as the long bow successfully depleted the ranks of French knights
                                      at Crecy and Agincourt. During the Civil War cavalry played a relatively
                                      minor role overall and infantry regiments were not obliged to form squares
                                      against them. But tactics seems to lag behind new technological
                                      considerations as generals generally fight the last war they were in. During
                                      the "charge of the light brigade" against fixed Russian artillery batteries,
                                      the British and French staff watched in horror. The French general Canrobert
                                      remarked: "C'est magnifique. Mais ce n'est pas la guerre." (It's magnificent
                                      but it's not war.")

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "joewhitney1" <JOEWHITNEY@...>
                                      To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:45 PM
                                      Subject: [Revlist] Re: Weaponry & Tactics


                                      > I'll have to differ on that issue. Professor Paddy Griffith, a senior
                                      > lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy, wrote a
                                      > fascinating book called "Battle Tactics of the Civil War" where he
                                      > analyzed the casualty rates of Napoleonic battles and Civil War
                                      > battles. He also looked at the typical distance between firing lines
                                      > in earlier wars (like the Revolution; see, there's the tie-in!)and
                                      > the Civil War. He discovered that neither the casualties nor
                                      > distances were very different. For instance, at Leipzig in 1813,
                                      > casualties for the three days of fighting were around 127,000.
                                      >
                                      > I wince every time some "historian" announces on the History
                                      > Channel, or reenactor tells the public, that the rifled musket
                                      > revolutionized weaponry, because now, "A man could hit a target at a
                                      > thousands yards!". In reality, CW battle lines were typically 50 to
                                      > 100 yards apart, just like earlier wars.
                                      >
                                      > Now, if they'd bothered to teach target practice so the men could
                                      > learn how to use their fancy range finding sites, as the Brits did in
                                      > Zulu Dawn, it would have been a different matter. Instead, they
                                      > emphasized volume of fire over accuracy, resulting in most rounds
                                      > sailing over the enemy's heads or burrowing into the ground. However,
                                      > the use of percussion caps over flintlocks was certainly an
                                      > improvement in reliability and weather resistance. But the Minie ball
                                      > was much slower and harder to ram after a few rounds started clogging
                                      > the bore. Certainly, the bullet would travel farther, and arrive with
                                      > more force, that a round ball, but that apparently didn't have a
                                      > great effect on the casualty rate. Now, when repeaters started to
                                      > show up late in the war, that's another matter.
                                      >
                                      > In WWI, it was machine guns like the Maxim that caused the massacres.
                                      > Its inventor thought it would be so horrendous a weapon that it would
                                      > actually prevent wars (where have we heard that before?)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList
                                      member photos, FAQ, etc., at
                                      >
                                      > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                                      >
                                      > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
                                      > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/
                                      >
                                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • hm95thfoot
                                      ... massacres. ... would ... While deadly, the machine gun was not the major killer in WW1. The big killer in WW1 was artillery fire. In the AWI, however, it
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John Welsh" <jbwelsh@c...> wrote:
                                        > Thanks for illuminating another shattered myth. {snip)

                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: "joewhitney1" <JOEWHITNEY@A...>
                                        > To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:45 PM
                                        > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Weaponry & Tactics
                                        >
                                        > > In WWI, it was machine guns like the Maxim that caused the
                                        massacres.
                                        > > Its inventor thought it would be so horrendous a weapon that it
                                        would
                                        > > actually prevent wars (where have we heard that before?)
                                        > >
                                        >

                                        While deadly, the machine gun was not the major killer in WW1. The
                                        big killer in WW1 was artillery fire. In the AWI, however, it was
                                        disease.

                                        Roger Fuller
                                      • wa3ngg@aol.com
                                        I admit to genuine ignorance on these matters, and am guilty of having accepted the conventional wisdom concerning smooth bore muskets and rifled muskets. I
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jan 3, 2004
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                                          I admit to genuine ignorance on these matters, and am guilty of having
                                          accepted the "conventional wisdom" concerning smooth bore muskets and rifled
                                          muskets. I have a couple of questions. In a message dated 1/2/2004 4:49:08 PM
                                          Eastern Standard Time, JOEWHITNEY@... writes:

                                          > I'll have to differ on that issue. Professor Paddy Griffith, a senior
                                          > lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy, wrote a
                                          > fascinating book called "Battle Tactics of the Civil War" where he
                                          > analyzed the casualty rates of Napoleonic battles and Civil War
                                          > battles. He also looked at the typical distance between firing lines
                                          > in earlier wars (like the Revolution; see, there's the tie-in!) and
                                          > the Civil War. He discovered that neither the casualties nor
                                          > distances were very different. For instance, at Leipzig in 1813,
                                          > casualties for the three days of fighting were around 127,000.


                                          I'm a bit confused. 127,000 sounds significantly greater than the casualties
                                          in AWI battles. What are the comparative rates based on population at risk?

                                          >
                                          > I wince every time some "historian" announces on the History
                                          > Channel, or reenactor tells the public, that the rifled musket
                                          > revolutionized weaponry, because now, "A man could hit a target at a
                                          > thousands yards!". In reality, CW battle lines were typically 50 to
                                          > 100 yards apart, just like earlier wars.

                                          I can appreciate the 50 to 100 yards, that makes perfect sense, if only in
                                          view of the "close with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver" philosophy.
                                          Also, having participated in 1000 yard competition, I certainly agree that it is
                                          unlikely that significant numbers of combatants would have been striking man
                                          sized targets at 1,000 yards with any kind of useful consistency. But if
                                          rifled muskets were more accurate at extreme ranges, would they not also be more
                                          accurate at close range?

                                          Please don't misunderstand me. This isn't criticism, I'm truly interested in
                                          this.
                                          Tnx,
                                          Bill Deutermann


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • John Welsh
                                          There are about 400,000 French soldiers, including 100,000 unknowns, buried at the ossusary at Douaumont from the terrible battles at the Marne in WWI. A
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jan 3, 2004
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                                            There are about 400,000 French soldiers, including 100,000 unknowns, buried
                                            at the ossusary at Douaumont from the terrible battles at the Marne in WWI.
                                            A victory! A million French soldiers died during that world conflict. I
                                            suppose the majority were felled by the incessant artillery bombardments
                                            holding the line. The Germans took it too.
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "hm95thfoot" <fullerfamily@...>
                                            To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 2:56 PM
                                            Subject: [Revlist] Re: Weaponry & Tactics


                                            > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John Welsh" <jbwelsh@c...> wrote:
                                            > > Thanks for illuminating another shattered myth. {snip)
                                            >
                                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > From: "joewhitney1" <JOEWHITNEY@A...>
                                            > > To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:45 PM
                                            > > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Weaponry & Tactics
                                            > >
                                            > > > In WWI, it was machine guns like the Maxim that caused the
                                            > massacres.
                                            > > > Its inventor thought it would be so horrendous a weapon that it
                                            > would
                                            > > > actually prevent wars (where have we heard that before?)
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > While deadly, the machine gun was not the major killer in WW1. The
                                            > big killer in WW1 was artillery fire. In the AWI, however, it was
                                            > disease.
                                            >
                                            > Roger Fuller
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList
                                            member photos, FAQ, etc., at
                                            >
                                            > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                                            >
                                            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
                                            > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/
                                            >
                                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Joyce & Mike Barbieri
                                            List Folke, Another note dealing with the movie ZULU which has become something of a cult film within the hobby--and Kate says she is somewhat lenient about
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jan 22, 2004
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                                              List Folke,

                                              Another note dealing with the movie "ZULU" which has become something
                                              of a cult film within the hobby--and Kate says she is somewhat
                                              lenient about discussion of the topic.

                                              Today is the 125th anniversary of the actions at Isandhlwana and
                                              Rorke's Drift. As I write this, the former action is over and the
                                              latter is just about to begin.

                                              Mike Barbieri
                                              Whitcomb's Corps
                                            • Rev. Joel Osborne
                                              A tip of the old Biretta to the gallant lads of the 24th. Hip, hip, huzzah! Pax Christi Fr. Guido Fanning aka Rev. Joel Osborne Fanning s RGMT
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Jan 22, 2004
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                                                A tip of the old Biretta to the gallant lads of the 24th. Hip, hip, huzzah!

                                                Pax Christi
                                                Fr. Guido Fanning
                                                aka Rev. Joel Osborne
                                                Fanning's RGMT

                                                Joyce & Mike Barbieri wrote:

                                                > List Folke,
                                                >
                                                > Another note dealing with the movie "ZULU" which has become something
                                                > of a cult film within the hobby--and Kate says she is somewhat
                                                > lenient about discussion of the topic.
                                                >
                                                > Today is the 125th anniversary of the actions at Isandhlwana and
                                                > Rorke's Drift. As I write this, the former action is over and the
                                                > latter is just about to begin.
                                                >
                                                > Mike Barbieri
                                                > Whitcomb's Corps
                                                >
                                                > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes a list of sutlers, RevList member photos, FAQ, etc., at
                                                >
                                                > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                                                >
                                                > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
                                                > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/
                                                >
                                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                >
                                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              • Joyce & Mike Barbieri
                                                ... hip, huzzah! ... And a tip of the old umQhele to the gallant lads of the impi who, armed with leather shield and iron assegais, in defense of their
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jan 23, 2004
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                                                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Rev. Joel Osborne"
                                                  <joel.osborne7@v...> wrote:
                                                  > A tip of the old Biretta to the gallant lads of the 24th. Hip,
                                                  hip, huzzah!
                                                  >
                                                  > Pax Christi
                                                  > Fr. Guido Fanning
                                                  > aka Rev. Joel Osborne
                                                  > Fanning's RGMT


                                                  And a tip of the old umQhele to the gallant lads of the impi who,
                                                  armed with leather shield and iron assegais, in defense of their
                                                  homeland against the foreign invader, charged over open ground into
                                                  the volley fire and bayonets of British regulars. uSuthu! uSuthu!
                                                  uSuthu!

                                                  Mike Barbieri
                                                  Whitcomb's Corps
                                                • Joseph Ruckman
                                                  ... Very true, but perhaps we might be pushing the envelope a bit on that leniency? Now if it were Monty Python, the Patron Saint of Reenactors, that might be
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jan 23, 2004
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                                                    >and Kate says she is somewhat lenient about discussion of the topic.

                                                    Very true, but perhaps we might be pushing the envelope a bit on that
                                                    leniency?

                                                    Now if it were Monty Python, the Patron Saint of Reenactors, that
                                                    might be another matter. My lasting regret is that MP never produced
                                                    a Zulu movie. The mind boggles...

                                                    ...but I digress. Back to the 18th c...

                                                    Joseph Ruckman
                                                    Revlist Advisory Board
                                                  • Ketcham, Greg
                                                    ... Hmmm, Joseph? Don tcha remember the Meaning of Life: Part Three-Fighting with each other ? Specifically, John Cleese blithely strolling through the Zulu
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Jan 23, 2004
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                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      Hmmm, Joseph? Don'tcha remember "the Meaning of Life: Part
                                                      Three-Fighting with each other"? Specifically, John Cleese blithely
                                                      strolling through the Zulu attack, calmly shaving as heads are cleaved
                                                      from bodies, etc?

                                                      So....in their own way, they did :-)

                                                      Greg Ketcham

                                                      Now if it were Monty Python, the Patron Saint of Reenactors, that
                                                      might be another matter. My lasting regret is that MP never produced
                                                      a Zulu movie. The mind boggles...
                                                    • Dave White
                                                      ... topic. ... that ... produced ... Actually, they sorta did.....there is a GREAT scene in The Meaning of Life.... Dave White 4th Regt of Foot
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Jan 23, 2004
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                                                        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Ruckman" <malruck@a...> wrote:
                                                        > >and Kate says she is somewhat lenient about discussion of the
                                                        topic.
                                                        >
                                                        > Very true, but perhaps we might be pushing the envelope a bit on
                                                        that
                                                        > leniency?
                                                        >
                                                        > Now if it were Monty Python, the Patron Saint of Reenactors, that
                                                        > might be another matter. My lasting regret is that MP never
                                                        produced
                                                        > a Zulu movie. The mind boggles...
                                                        >
                                                        > ...but I digress. Back to the 18th c...
                                                        >
                                                        > Joseph Ruckman
                                                        > Revlist Advisory Board

                                                        Actually, they sorta did.....there is a GREAT scene in The Meaning of
                                                        Life....

                                                        Dave White
                                                        4th Regt of Foot
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