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Re: [Revlist] Cannons at Hubbardton

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  • PZBOB@AOL.COM
    the military road to mt independence and fort ti run thru the battle field area ,and military supply wagons have been known to break down in that area since
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 30, 2001
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      the military road to mt independence and fort ti run thru the battle field
      area ,and military supply wagons have been known to break down in that area
      since the 1760s,the troops on both sides were moving too fast for anything
      heavier than 2-3pders to keep up, my opinion would be cannons were not there
      or had any impact in the battle

      bob


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • sschuyler59@aol.com
      ... anything ... not there ... I m with Bob. I don t think artillery was there in any form. The complete text of BATTLE OF HUBBARTON by John Williams is online
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 1, 2001
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        --- In Revlist@y..., PZBOB@A... wrote:
        > the troops on both sides were moving too fast for
        anything
        > heavier than 2-3pders to keep up, my opinion would be cannons were
        not there
        > or had any impact in the battle
        >
        > bob
        >

        I'm with Bob. I don't think artillery was there in any form.

        The complete text of BATTLE OF HUBBARTON by John Williams is online
        at:

        http://www.cet.middlebury.edu/mcgill/battle/index.html

        A secondary source for sure but well referenced to primary sources.

        No artillery mentioned.

        The action is the result of a fast retreat from Ticonderoga/Mt.
        Independence and the topology of the Hampshire Grants rules out
        cannons keeping up. Can't believe anybody on either side gave any
        serious thought to dragging 12 pounders over those mountains.

        Kevin Richard-Morrow
        Second Albany County Militia
      • xxvcontrgt@aol.com
        Greetings I haven t heavily researched this topic. But, according to author John Williams in his book The Battle of Hubbardton , he concludes that there were
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 1, 2001
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          Greetings

          I haven't heavily researched this topic. But, according to author John
          Williams in his book "The Battle of Hubbardton", he concludes that there were
          no artillery at Hubbardton.

          In Appendix H "Rationale for Lack of Artillery at Hubbardton" p64 he wrote
          the following. In Lt Hadden's journal, p85 it is mentioned that Gen. Fraser
          pursued the Americans " leaving his artillery which the road was not capable
          of receiving."
          Lord Napier in his journal mentions that Gen. Fraser came upon the americans
          "without artillery which with the utmost endeavor it was impossible to get up"
          In the Journal of DuRoi the Elder, Lt and Adj. in the service of the Duke of
          Brunswick, it is recorded "...although Brig. Frasier had only half of his
          vanguard together, and no artillery whatever.....he made an attack"

          Williams also writes; There is no reason to believe that the americans were
          any more successful. The rapid march would have precluded drawing artillery
          over the narrow crude military road at the pace set. "Gen Wilkinson in his
          memoirs mentions "Our ordanance was dispatched by the lakes for
          Skenesboro......" He also mentions that the firing was confined to small
          arms." Hope this helps

          Keith
          25th Cont Rgt
        • staff@mafseminars.com
          Keith, That s more documentaton than I found. However, I have observed several cannon balls supposidly recovered from the Hubbardton Battlefield. One appears
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 1, 2001
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            Keith,

            That's more documentaton than I found. However, I have observed
            several cannon balls supposidly recovered from the Hubbardton
            Battlefield. One appears to be from a 12 pounder, one from a 1 1/2
            pounder and one from something smaller. There were no other battles
            in this area that would have accounted for the cannon balls. I agree
            that the quick retreat from Fort Ti and Mt. Independence might
            preclude the Americans from moving such cannon but I am not sure. If
            the origin of the canon balls I observed is accurate, someone had
            cannon at Hubbardton.

            Ron Glidden
          • WRH
            ... Are you sure about this? Just because both sides were required to abandon their field pieces prior to the engagement does not neccesarily mean they also
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 2, 2001
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              >If the origin of the canon balls I observed is accurate, someone had
              >cannon at Hubbardton.
              >
              >Ron Glidden

              Are you sure about this? Just because both sides were required to abandon
              their field pieces prior to the engagement does not neccesarily mean they
              also took the time to un-load all the shot for these pieces from any carts
              or wagons loaded with ordinance prior to the battle. With or without
              cannon, the powder and shot would not willingly be abandoned as the canon
              might be.

              The presence of something as large as a twelve pounder firing would not
              likely escape the notice of the chroniclers of the engagement. I think it
              quite possible that the canon balls found at the site were dumped at the
              commencement of the battle rather than shot from canon reputedly left miles
              away.

              On the other hand, the smaller shot may well have been used in the battle
              as some of the "grasshoppers" could have been packed in by horse or mule,
              and not suffered unduly from the rough road conditions. Also, if some of
              these smaller field pieces were present at the battle, they may well have
              been over-looked by chroniclers simply because their use was so
              common-place in such an engagement.

              There may be, or may have once been, clues as to the truth of this matter
              if the position, location, and condition of the projectiles were acurately
              recorded relative to the opposing forces at the time they were removed from
              the battlefield. This of course assumes that they were recovered in a
              systematic manner by archeologists rather than being un-earthed by a farmer
              as he plowed his fields. It also assumes some record has survived of the
              relative positions and movement of the troops involved.

              Bill
              William Hippensteel <hip1@...>
            • Jay Callaham
              ... From: To: Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 10:22 PM Subject: [Revlist] Re: Cannons at Hubbardton ... I
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 3, 2001
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <staff@...>
                To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 10:22 PM
                Subject: [Revlist] Re: Cannons at Hubbardton


                > Keith,
                >
                > That's more documentaton than I found. However, I have observed
                > several cannon balls supposidly recovered from the Hubbardton
                > Battlefield. One appears to be from a 12 pounder, one from a 1 1/2
                > pounder and one from something smaller. There were no other battles
                > in this area that would have accounted for the cannon balls. I agree
                > that the quick retreat from Fort Ti and Mt. Independence might
                > preclude the Americans from moving such cannon but I am not sure. If
                > the origin of the canon balls I observed is accurate, someone had
                > cannon at Hubbardton.
                >
                > Ron Glidden

                I don't know about that. There's a legend in NC about a foundry in the
                Charlotte area that cast cannon balls, 3 pounders, and sent them to the
                rebels at King's Mountain - who, of course, had no use for them. There
                certainly were no cannon there. I've seen some of the "cannon balls" that
                supposedly came from there - - with nothing but oral tradition for
                documentation. My personal opinion was that they were gate weights.

                Jay
                Cm Gds
                4th Coy, Bde of Guards
                4th Coy, Bde of Guards
              • staff@mafseminars.com
                Bill, You could be right about the presence of powder and cannon balls without cannon. I don t know enough about it to know if the British while in pursuit
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 3, 2001
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                  Bill,

                  You could be right about the presence of powder and cannon balls
                  without cannon. I don't know enough about it to know if the British
                  while in pursuit would have been hauling cannon balls without
                  cannon. However, it was mentioned to me off-list that this area also
                  served as a supply road from Crown Point (I believe to Fort #4 but am
                  not sure), and was used by both British and Americans. As such, it
                  was suggested that the cannon balls could have fallen from a cart or
                  been left there during transport, possibly as storage for transprot
                  at a later time. The only thing I am not sure about is whether a
                  cart tipping over with cannon balls or even a few falling out of a
                  cart would have been missed or neglected by those transproting them.
                  Seems like a precious commodity that someone would have laoded back
                  into the cart. Then again, having been in the military myself, I can
                  envision the guy that lost a few thinking that's a few less I have to
                  carry<g>. Who knows?

                  Ron
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