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Re: [Revlist] gunpowder purchasing

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  • Joseph & Christine
    ... And of course, that should have read more boom _than_ black powder. Joseph Ruckman
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
      > Pyrodex is going to give you more boom black powder

      And of course, that should have read "more boom _than_ black powder."

      Joseph Ruckman
    • sean
      pyrodex does burn at a higer rate, though not as high as smokeless powder. Point of interest, most firelocks sold specifically say For Black Powder Use Only ,
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
        pyrodex does burn at a higer rate, though not as high as smokeless powder.
        Point of interest, most firelocks sold specifically say "For Black Powder
        Use Only", don't ya' think they would say Pyrodex or other BP substitute
        would be o.k.? Also the use of pyrodex will ruin the rifling in an iron
        barreled rifle, by causing pitting, in a flintlock, the pyrodex will damage
        the touch hole, frizzen, pan, etc. The biggest risk is the firing of live
        rounds, as mr. quinn stated it will cause a delay in firing leading to the
        dreaded hang-fire. Just to correct your statement on BP being classified as
        "explosive" by the DOT and pyrodex as "smokeless". The DOT still considers
        Pyrodex as an explosive, along with ciggarette lighters. The ATF has
        dropped BP from an "explosive" to a "propellent", which is why you can
        purchase 25+ pds. w/o a FFL (but there are other regs. to tie u up).The
        whole point of my response was that advice like that is unfair to the
        possible newcomer who uses Revlist as a source of help. Just be aware also
        that the 3 big Rev War re-enactment organizations (BAR, BB, CL) all forbid
        pyrodex.


        cheers,

        sean
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Joseph & Christine <malruck@...>
        To: <Revlist@egroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 7:14 PM
        Subject: Re: [Revlist] gunpowder purchasing


        > Sean & List,
        >
        > > ARE YOU NUTS??!!!???!!! Advice like that gets people hurt or worse.
        > > Pyrodex is meant for use in modern designed black powder weapons, not
        > > Bess's and Charley's or flintlock rifles.
        >
        > >From whence comes this? According to the Pyrodex web page, "Pyrodex is a
        > propellant designed for use in muzzleloading and black powder cartridge
        arms
        > found by a competent gunsmith to be in good shootable condition." I trust
        > our muskets fall into that category. Are you thinking of Pyrodex pellets?
        > According to Hogdon (the manufacturer of Pyrodex) "Pyrodex Pellets are
        > specifically designed for use with in-line rifles. The ignition pad is
        > placed on the end to facilitate proper ignition. A side lock would not
        place
        > the flash from the percussion cap in the correct position on the pellet to
        > insure good ignition." Read: they work very poorly, if at all, with
        > sidelock percussion arms. Don't even think about trying to use them in a
        > flintlock.
        >
        > > Matter of Fact, it shouldn't be used in any reenacting weapon.
        >
        > True, but only because it won't work with blanks - again, according to
        > Hogdon, "Pyrodex does not work well in blanks. Unlike blackpowder,
        Pyrodex
        > requires confinement to burn well. Blanks do not offer enough confinement
        to
        > make the Pyrodex work." Virtually every black powder expert I've ever
        read
        > stated that Pyrodex was unsuitable for use in a flintlock, but I can't say
        > one way or the other from personal experience, never having used the stuff
        > in one. Thos. Quinn offered the first written statement contradicting
        this
        > position since Hogdon first invented the stuff.
        >
        > I note that Hogdon is silent on its suitability for use with flintlocks.
        >
        > > If used in a musket with a live round.. your talking
        > > a BIG BOOM, like the firelock exploding and your face exploding....
        >
        > I'd be very interested in any docuementaion on this. Pyrodex is designed
        to
        > be a substitute _by volume_ (as opposed to weight) for black powder,
        > including pressure. Now yes, if you weigh the charges, an equal weight of
        > Pyrodex is going to give you more boom black powder - that's one of their
        > selling points ("More shots per pound") and it's also why they tell you to
        > use a volumetric measure. But if you do so (which I think we all do) you
        > should have no problems as far as pressure goes. True, it is considered a
        > "smokeless" powder, which we should all know is not to be used in a
        > muzzleloader. But again, back to the Hogden's Pyrodex FAQ page, "Pyrodex
        is
        > not a true, smokeless powder. Pyrodex does not contain nitrocellulose in
        any
        > quantity. Pyrodex is considered to require the same handling and
        precautions
        > while in transit as smokeless powder. The United States Department of
        > Transportation has assigned the classification of "smokeless" to Pyrodex
        > rather than the classification "Explosive" that is given to blackpowder.
        > Pyrodex is safe in any firearm designed for the use of blackpowder."
        >
        > Let the panic subside.
        >
        > Joseph Ruckman
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes book and movie reviews, a list
        of sutlers, RevList member photos, etc., at
        >
        > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
        >
        >
      • thomas j quinn
        sir, pyrodex is a volume for volume substitute for black powder, generating the same pressures as the original powder. it can be used in all muzzleloading
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
          sir,
          pyrodex is a volume for volume substitute for black powder, generating
          the same pressures as the original powder. it can be used in all
          muzzleloading firearms, and although I have found it slow to ignite , it
          is otherwisw safe and satisfactory.
          Pyrodex pellets are designed for use in in-line muzzleloaders, but again
          develop the same pressures.
          It is indeed less pc ( I use black powder), but I am unaware of any data
          indicating danger.
          And as a matter of fact I am not nuts.
        • thomas j quinn
          sean, feel free to contact me off line to discuss this T.Quinn
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
            sean,
            feel free to contact me off line to discuss this
            T.Quinn
          • Joseph & Christine
            Sean & List, ... Agreed. Neither does it burn at so high a rate as to pose a danger to ML shooters, either. ... Why should they bother? It s Hogden s
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
              Sean & List,

              > pyrodex does burn at a higer rate, though not as high as smokeless powder.

              Agreed. Neither does it burn at so high a rate as to pose a danger to ML
              shooters, either.

              > Point of interest, most firelocks sold specifically say "For Black Powder
              > Use Only", don't ya' think they would say Pyrodex or other BP substitute
              > would be o.k.?

              Why should they bother? It's Hogden's problem, not theirs. Substitute BP
              makers are the ones on the hook for making good on the the claim that their
              product is a "suitable substitute" for black powder. (There are other BP
              subs on the market besides Pyrodex.) The gun manufacturers couldn't care
              less.

              > Also the use of pyrodex will ruin the rifling in an iron
              > barreled rifle, by causing pitting, in a flintlock, the pyrodex will
              > damage the touch hole, frizzen, pan, etc.

              So will black powder - both require cleaning. In the early days of Pyrodex,
              a myth evolved that one didn't need to clean with Pyrodex. Not true.

              > The biggest risk is the firing of live
              > rounds, as mr. quinn stated it will cause a delay in firing leading to the
              > dreaded hang-fire.

              Definitely a problem, which is why everything I've ever read save Mr. Quinn
              indicates that Pyrodex is unsuitable for flintlocks.

              > Just to correct your statement on BP being classified as
              > "explosive" by the DOT and pyrodex as "smokeless". The DOT still
              > considers Pyrodex as an explosive, along with ciggarette lighters. The
              > ATF has dropped BP from an "explosive" to a "propellent", which is
              > why you can purchase 25+ pds. w/o a FFL (but there are other regs.
              > to tie u up).

              It's not my statement, it's Hogdon's. Hence the quotes.

              > The whole point of my response was that advice like that is unfair to the
              > possible newcomer who uses Revlist as a source of help.

              I have no problem with that.

              > Just be aware also that the 3 big Rev War re-enactment
              > organizations (BAR, BB, CL) all forbid pyrodex.

              Since the manufacturer flatly states that it doesn't work in blanks, this is
              a good policy. I don't think it has anything to do with safety or the risk
              of blowing up one's firelock.

              Regards,

              Joseph Ruckman
            • Ralph Burke
              ... Some guns DO say that. I have 2 guns from Traditions marked : READ AND UNDERSTAND INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE USE BLACK POWDER OR PYRODEX ONLY. DO NOT USE
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 2, 2000
                <snip>
                > > Point of interest, most firelocks sold specifically say "For Black
                >Powder Use Only", don't ya' think they would say Pyrodex or other BP
                >substitute would be o.k.?

                Some guns DO say that. I have 2 guns from Traditions marked :

                READ AND UNDERSTAND INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE USE
                BLACK POWDER OR PYRODEX ONLY. DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER.


                >Why should they bother? It's Hogden's problem, not theirs. Substitute >BP
                >makers are the ones on the hook for making good on the the claim >that
                >their product is a "suitable substitute" for black powder. (There >are
                >other BP subs on the market besides Pyrodex.) The gun >manufacturers
                >couldn't care less.

                Yes. Like it says, read and understand before use.


                >
                > > Also the use of pyrodex will ruin the rifling in an iron
                > > barreled rifle, by causing pitting, in a flintlock, the pyrodex will
                > > damage the touch hole, frizzen, pan, etc.
                >
                >So will black powder - both require cleaning. In the early days of
                >Pyrodex,
                >a myth evolved that one didn't need to clean with Pyrodex. Not true.


                Very true. Although Pyro seems more corrosive, in my experience, both
                require thorough cleaning or rusting will result.

                YHS,

                RJB

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              • Bob Shanahan
                Hey Tom... No Pyrodex, as you ve read. Bob Shanahan ... of sutlers, RevList member photos, etc., at
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 2, 2000
                  Hey Tom...
                  No Pyrodex, as you've read.
                  Bob Shanahan

                  ----------
                  > From: thomas j quinn <quinn53@...>
                  > To: Revlist@egroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [Revlist] gunpowder purchasing
                  > Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 5:30 PM
                  >
                  > Pyrodex is a good substitute for black powder shooting as is clean shot.
                  > If you are just reenacting you'll find that cleaning your piece is
                  > easier. If you are live fire shooting or hunting the delay between fire
                  > in the pan and in the bore is somewhat longer and can affect accuracy,
                  > but over all the black powder substitutes are fine in most guns and give
                  > plenty of boom and smoke.
                  > your most humble servant, Thos. Quinn
                  >
                  >
                  > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes book and movie reviews, a list
                  of sutlers, RevList member photos, etc., at
                  >
                  > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                  >
                • thomas j quinn
                  I NEVER SAID I USED IT WHILE RE ENACTING, I TRIED IT IN SHOOTING.
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 3, 2000
                    I NEVER SAID I USED IT WHILE RE ENACTING, I TRIED IT IN SHOOTING.
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