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Re: [Revlist] gunpowder purchasing

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  • Joseph & Christine
    Sean & List, ... From whence comes this? According to the Pyrodex web page, Pyrodex is a propellant designed for use in muzzleloading and black powder
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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      Sean & List,

      > ARE YOU NUTS??!!!???!!! Advice like that gets people hurt or worse.
      > Pyrodex is meant for use in modern designed black powder weapons, not
      > Bess's and Charley's or flintlock rifles.

      From whence comes this? According to the Pyrodex web page, "Pyrodex is a
      propellant designed for use in muzzleloading and black powder cartridge arms
      found by a competent gunsmith to be in good shootable condition." I trust
      our muskets fall into that category. Are you thinking of Pyrodex pellets?
      According to Hogdon (the manufacturer of Pyrodex) "Pyrodex Pellets are
      specifically designed for use with in-line rifles. The ignition pad is
      placed on the end to facilitate proper ignition. A side lock would not place
      the flash from the percussion cap in the correct position on the pellet to
      insure good ignition." Read: they work very poorly, if at all, with
      sidelock percussion arms. Don't even think about trying to use them in a
      flintlock.

      > Matter of Fact, it shouldn't be used in any reenacting weapon.

      True, but only because it won't work with blanks - again, according to
      Hogdon, "Pyrodex does not work well in blanks. Unlike blackpowder, Pyrodex
      requires confinement to burn well. Blanks do not offer enough confinement to
      make the Pyrodex work." Virtually every black powder expert I've ever read
      stated that Pyrodex was unsuitable for use in a flintlock, but I can't say
      one way or the other from personal experience, never having used the stuff
      in one. Thos. Quinn offered the first written statement contradicting this
      position since Hogdon first invented the stuff.

      I note that Hogdon is silent on its suitability for use with flintlocks.

      > If used in a musket with a live round.. your talking
      > a BIG BOOM, like the firelock exploding and your face exploding....

      I'd be very interested in any docuementaion on this. Pyrodex is designed to
      be a substitute _by volume_ (as opposed to weight) for black powder,
      including pressure. Now yes, if you weigh the charges, an equal weight of
      Pyrodex is going to give you more boom black powder - that's one of their
      selling points ("More shots per pound") and it's also why they tell you to
      use a volumetric measure. But if you do so (which I think we all do) you
      should have no problems as far as pressure goes. True, it is considered a
      "smokeless" powder, which we should all know is not to be used in a
      muzzleloader. But again, back to the Hogden's Pyrodex FAQ page, "Pyrodex is
      not a true, smokeless powder. Pyrodex does not contain nitrocellulose in any
      quantity. Pyrodex is considered to require the same handling and precautions
      while in transit as smokeless powder. The United States Department of
      Transportation has assigned the classification of "smokeless" to Pyrodex
      rather than the classification "Explosive" that is given to blackpowder.
      Pyrodex is safe in any firearm designed for the use of blackpowder."

      Let the panic subside.

      Joseph Ruckman
    • Joseph & Christine
      ... And of course, that should have read more boom _than_ black powder. Joseph Ruckman
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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        > Pyrodex is going to give you more boom black powder

        And of course, that should have read "more boom _than_ black powder."

        Joseph Ruckman
      • sean
        pyrodex does burn at a higer rate, though not as high as smokeless powder. Point of interest, most firelocks sold specifically say For Black Powder Use Only ,
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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          pyrodex does burn at a higer rate, though not as high as smokeless powder.
          Point of interest, most firelocks sold specifically say "For Black Powder
          Use Only", don't ya' think they would say Pyrodex or other BP substitute
          would be o.k.? Also the use of pyrodex will ruin the rifling in an iron
          barreled rifle, by causing pitting, in a flintlock, the pyrodex will damage
          the touch hole, frizzen, pan, etc. The biggest risk is the firing of live
          rounds, as mr. quinn stated it will cause a delay in firing leading to the
          dreaded hang-fire. Just to correct your statement on BP being classified as
          "explosive" by the DOT and pyrodex as "smokeless". The DOT still considers
          Pyrodex as an explosive, along with ciggarette lighters. The ATF has
          dropped BP from an "explosive" to a "propellent", which is why you can
          purchase 25+ pds. w/o a FFL (but there are other regs. to tie u up).The
          whole point of my response was that advice like that is unfair to the
          possible newcomer who uses Revlist as a source of help. Just be aware also
          that the 3 big Rev War re-enactment organizations (BAR, BB, CL) all forbid
          pyrodex.


          cheers,

          sean
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Joseph & Christine <malruck@...>
          To: <Revlist@egroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 7:14 PM
          Subject: Re: [Revlist] gunpowder purchasing


          > Sean & List,
          >
          > > ARE YOU NUTS??!!!???!!! Advice like that gets people hurt or worse.
          > > Pyrodex is meant for use in modern designed black powder weapons, not
          > > Bess's and Charley's or flintlock rifles.
          >
          > >From whence comes this? According to the Pyrodex web page, "Pyrodex is a
          > propellant designed for use in muzzleloading and black powder cartridge
          arms
          > found by a competent gunsmith to be in good shootable condition." I trust
          > our muskets fall into that category. Are you thinking of Pyrodex pellets?
          > According to Hogdon (the manufacturer of Pyrodex) "Pyrodex Pellets are
          > specifically designed for use with in-line rifles. The ignition pad is
          > placed on the end to facilitate proper ignition. A side lock would not
          place
          > the flash from the percussion cap in the correct position on the pellet to
          > insure good ignition." Read: they work very poorly, if at all, with
          > sidelock percussion arms. Don't even think about trying to use them in a
          > flintlock.
          >
          > > Matter of Fact, it shouldn't be used in any reenacting weapon.
          >
          > True, but only because it won't work with blanks - again, according to
          > Hogdon, "Pyrodex does not work well in blanks. Unlike blackpowder,
          Pyrodex
          > requires confinement to burn well. Blanks do not offer enough confinement
          to
          > make the Pyrodex work." Virtually every black powder expert I've ever
          read
          > stated that Pyrodex was unsuitable for use in a flintlock, but I can't say
          > one way or the other from personal experience, never having used the stuff
          > in one. Thos. Quinn offered the first written statement contradicting
          this
          > position since Hogdon first invented the stuff.
          >
          > I note that Hogdon is silent on its suitability for use with flintlocks.
          >
          > > If used in a musket with a live round.. your talking
          > > a BIG BOOM, like the firelock exploding and your face exploding....
          >
          > I'd be very interested in any docuementaion on this. Pyrodex is designed
          to
          > be a substitute _by volume_ (as opposed to weight) for black powder,
          > including pressure. Now yes, if you weigh the charges, an equal weight of
          > Pyrodex is going to give you more boom black powder - that's one of their
          > selling points ("More shots per pound") and it's also why they tell you to
          > use a volumetric measure. But if you do so (which I think we all do) you
          > should have no problems as far as pressure goes. True, it is considered a
          > "smokeless" powder, which we should all know is not to be used in a
          > muzzleloader. But again, back to the Hogden's Pyrodex FAQ page, "Pyrodex
          is
          > not a true, smokeless powder. Pyrodex does not contain nitrocellulose in
          any
          > quantity. Pyrodex is considered to require the same handling and
          precautions
          > while in transit as smokeless powder. The United States Department of
          > Transportation has assigned the classification of "smokeless" to Pyrodex
          > rather than the classification "Explosive" that is given to blackpowder.
          > Pyrodex is safe in any firearm designed for the use of blackpowder."
          >
          > Let the panic subside.
          >
          > Joseph Ruckman
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes book and movie reviews, a list
          of sutlers, RevList member photos, etc., at
          >
          > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
          >
          >
        • thomas j quinn
          sir, pyrodex is a volume for volume substitute for black powder, generating the same pressures as the original powder. it can be used in all muzzleloading
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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            sir,
            pyrodex is a volume for volume substitute for black powder, generating
            the same pressures as the original powder. it can be used in all
            muzzleloading firearms, and although I have found it slow to ignite , it
            is otherwisw safe and satisfactory.
            Pyrodex pellets are designed for use in in-line muzzleloaders, but again
            develop the same pressures.
            It is indeed less pc ( I use black powder), but I am unaware of any data
            indicating danger.
            And as a matter of fact I am not nuts.
          • thomas j quinn
            sean, feel free to contact me off line to discuss this T.Quinn
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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              sean,
              feel free to contact me off line to discuss this
              T.Quinn
            • Joseph & Christine
              Sean & List, ... Agreed. Neither does it burn at so high a rate as to pose a danger to ML shooters, either. ... Why should they bother? It s Hogden s
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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                Sean & List,

                > pyrodex does burn at a higer rate, though not as high as smokeless powder.

                Agreed. Neither does it burn at so high a rate as to pose a danger to ML
                shooters, either.

                > Point of interest, most firelocks sold specifically say "For Black Powder
                > Use Only", don't ya' think they would say Pyrodex or other BP substitute
                > would be o.k.?

                Why should they bother? It's Hogden's problem, not theirs. Substitute BP
                makers are the ones on the hook for making good on the the claim that their
                product is a "suitable substitute" for black powder. (There are other BP
                subs on the market besides Pyrodex.) The gun manufacturers couldn't care
                less.

                > Also the use of pyrodex will ruin the rifling in an iron
                > barreled rifle, by causing pitting, in a flintlock, the pyrodex will
                > damage the touch hole, frizzen, pan, etc.

                So will black powder - both require cleaning. In the early days of Pyrodex,
                a myth evolved that one didn't need to clean with Pyrodex. Not true.

                > The biggest risk is the firing of live
                > rounds, as mr. quinn stated it will cause a delay in firing leading to the
                > dreaded hang-fire.

                Definitely a problem, which is why everything I've ever read save Mr. Quinn
                indicates that Pyrodex is unsuitable for flintlocks.

                > Just to correct your statement on BP being classified as
                > "explosive" by the DOT and pyrodex as "smokeless". The DOT still
                > considers Pyrodex as an explosive, along with ciggarette lighters. The
                > ATF has dropped BP from an "explosive" to a "propellent", which is
                > why you can purchase 25+ pds. w/o a FFL (but there are other regs.
                > to tie u up).

                It's not my statement, it's Hogdon's. Hence the quotes.

                > The whole point of my response was that advice like that is unfair to the
                > possible newcomer who uses Revlist as a source of help.

                I have no problem with that.

                > Just be aware also that the 3 big Rev War re-enactment
                > organizations (BAR, BB, CL) all forbid pyrodex.

                Since the manufacturer flatly states that it doesn't work in blanks, this is
                a good policy. I don't think it has anything to do with safety or the risk
                of blowing up one's firelock.

                Regards,

                Joseph Ruckman
              • Ralph Burke
                ... Some guns DO say that. I have 2 guns from Traditions marked : READ AND UNDERSTAND INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE USE BLACK POWDER OR PYRODEX ONLY. DO NOT USE
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 2, 2000
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                  <snip>
                  > > Point of interest, most firelocks sold specifically say "For Black
                  >Powder Use Only", don't ya' think they would say Pyrodex or other BP
                  >substitute would be o.k.?

                  Some guns DO say that. I have 2 guns from Traditions marked :

                  READ AND UNDERSTAND INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE USE
                  BLACK POWDER OR PYRODEX ONLY. DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER.


                  >Why should they bother? It's Hogden's problem, not theirs. Substitute >BP
                  >makers are the ones on the hook for making good on the the claim >that
                  >their product is a "suitable substitute" for black powder. (There >are
                  >other BP subs on the market besides Pyrodex.) The gun >manufacturers
                  >couldn't care less.

                  Yes. Like it says, read and understand before use.


                  >
                  > > Also the use of pyrodex will ruin the rifling in an iron
                  > > barreled rifle, by causing pitting, in a flintlock, the pyrodex will
                  > > damage the touch hole, frizzen, pan, etc.
                  >
                  >So will black powder - both require cleaning. In the early days of
                  >Pyrodex,
                  >a myth evolved that one didn't need to clean with Pyrodex. Not true.


                  Very true. Although Pyro seems more corrosive, in my experience, both
                  require thorough cleaning or rusting will result.

                  YHS,

                  RJB

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                • Bob Shanahan
                  Hey Tom... No Pyrodex, as you ve read. Bob Shanahan ... of sutlers, RevList member photos, etc., at
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 2, 2000
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                    Hey Tom...
                    No Pyrodex, as you've read.
                    Bob Shanahan

                    ----------
                    > From: thomas j quinn <quinn53@...>
                    > To: Revlist@egroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [Revlist] gunpowder purchasing
                    > Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 5:30 PM
                    >
                    > Pyrodex is a good substitute for black powder shooting as is clean shot.
                    > If you are just reenacting you'll find that cleaning your piece is
                    > easier. If you are live fire shooting or hunting the delay between fire
                    > in the pan and in the bore is somewhat longer and can affect accuracy,
                    > but over all the black powder substitutes are fine in most guns and give
                    > plenty of boom and smoke.
                    > your most humble servant, Thos. Quinn
                    >
                    >
                    > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes book and movie reviews, a list
                    of sutlers, RevList member photos, etc., at
                    >
                    > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                    >
                  • thomas j quinn
                    I NEVER SAID I USED IT WHILE RE ENACTING, I TRIED IT IN SHOOTING.
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 3, 2000
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                      I NEVER SAID I USED IT WHILE RE ENACTING, I TRIED IT IN SHOOTING.
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