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gunpowder purchasing

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  • histnact@revwar.com
    Good day liste, I have been using my musket for 11 years. I am a revwar reeenactor veteran but even veterans can make mistakes and if I made one in purchasing
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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      Good day liste,

      I have been using my musket for 11 years. I am a revwar reeenactor veteran but even veterans can make mistakes and if I made one in purchasing some I'd rather check & find out now then find out later. Today I went to buy some muzzleloading powder looking for they type that is in the 1 pound red metal cans. The store did not have them and steered me to 2 other brands in plastic containers.

      I bought 1 container (16 oz). of Hodgdon PYRODEX muzzleloading propellant, Brand P (FFFG equivalent). My musket is a Jap Brown Bess that I bought from Dixie Guns Works 11 years ago.

      Did I make a mistake by purchasing this? Would there be any problems?

      Michael D. Meals
      www.revwar.com
      histnact@...



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dave Snyder
      Hi- Pyrodex will not reliably ignite in a flintlock as it needs a hot flame, as from a percussion cap, to set it off. Flint and steel sparks won t quite do it.
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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        Hi-

        Pyrodex will not reliably ignite in a flintlock as it needs
        a hot flame, as from a percussion cap, to set it off. Flint
        and steel sparks won't quite do it. I've heard of some
        success by using 4f powder in the pan to ignite a main
        charge of pyrodex in a flintlock, but it is still has less
        reliable ignition than black powder alone, and you would
        have to go through the extra trouble of using a seperate
        priming charge source.

        See if the dealer will allow you to exchange, or find a
        friendly percussion musket owner who's willing to swap with
        you.

        Dave Snyder,
        HM 64th Regt of Foot

        On Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:55:34 -0500
        <histnact@...> wrote:
        Good day liste,

        I have been using my musket for 11 years. I am a revwar
        reeenactor veteran but even veterans can make mistakes and
        if I made one in purchasing some I'd rather check & find out
        now then find out later. Today I went to buy some
        muzzleloading powder looking for they type that is in the 1
        pound red metal cans. The store did not have them and
        steered me to 2 other brands in plastic containers.

        I bought 1 container (16 oz). of Hodgdon PYRODEX
        muzzleloading propellant, Brand P (FFFG equivalent). My
        musket is a Jap Brown Bess that I bought from Dixie Guns
        Works 11 years ago.

        Did I make a mistake by purchasing this? Would there be any
        problems?

        Michael D. Meals
        www.revwar.com
        histnact@...



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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      • Craig Miller
        ... Hi Michael, Sorry to tell you this, but I believe that you did make a mistake. If memory serves me correctly, Pyrodex needs to be compressed to work
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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          At 12:55 PM 11/1/00 -0500, you wrote:
          >Good day liste,
          >
          >I have been using my musket for 11 years. I am a revwar reeenactor veteran
          >but even veterans can make mistakes and if I made one in purchasing some
          >I'd rather check & find out now then find out later. Today I went to buy
          >some muzzleloading powder looking for they type that is in the 1 pound
          >red metal cans. The store did not have them and steered me to 2 other
          >brands in plastic containers.
          >
          >I bought 1 container (16 oz). of Hodgdon PYRODEX muzzleloading
          >propellant, Brand P (FFFG equivalent). My musket is a Jap Brown Bess
          >that I bought from Dixie Guns Works 11 years ago.
          >
          > Did I make a mistake by purchasing this? Would there be any problems?
          >
          >Michael D. Meals
          >www.revwar.com
          >histnact@...

          Hi Michael,

          Sorry to tell you this, but I believe that you did make a mistake. If
          memory serves me correctly, Pyrodex needs to be compressed to work
          properly. The prime charge can't be compressed and, unless you use your
          ramrod, the main charge down the barrel will not be compressed
          either. Most likely you will encounter numerous misfires. I'd get my $$
          back and look around for the 'red metal can' stuff. You will be happier.

          Your Most Humble and Obedient Servant,

          Craig S. Miller

          "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken
          seriously." former Vice President Hubert Humphrey

          77th Highland Regiment of Foote - F&I period - Capt. Robertson's Coy -
          Pvt. Colin MacDonald
          2nd Regiment - Albany County Militia - Schenectedy - District - Rev War
          period. - Cpl. Miller
        • thomas j quinn
          Pyrodex is a good substitute for black powder shooting as is clean shot. If you are just reenacting you ll find that cleaning your piece is easier. If you are
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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            Pyrodex is a good substitute for black powder shooting as is clean shot.
            If you are just reenacting you'll find that cleaning your piece is
            easier. If you are live fire shooting or hunting the delay between fire
            in the pan and in the bore is somewhat longer and can affect accuracy,
            but over all the black powder substitutes are fine in most guns and give
            plenty of boom and smoke.
            your most humble servant, Thos. Quinn
          • sean
            Mr. Quinn, ARE YOU NUTS??!!!???!!! Advice like that gets people hurt or worse. Pyrodex is meant for use in modern designed black powder weapons, not Bess s
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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              Mr. Quinn,


              ARE YOU NUTS??!!!???!!! Advice like that gets people hurt or worse.
              Pyrodex is meant for use in modern designed black powder weapons, not Bess's
              and Charley's or flintlock rifles. Matter of Fact, it shouldn't be used in
              any reenacting weapon. If used in a musket with a live round.. your talking
              a BIG BOOM, like the firelock exploding and your face exploding....Please,
              to any considering useing Pyrodex in your piece. Don't, anyway Black Powder
              is usually cheaper and more PC(period correct)

              cheers,

              sean
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: thomas j quinn <quinn53@...>
              To: <Revlist@egroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 5:30 PM
              Subject: Re: [Revlist] gunpowder purchasing


              > Pyrodex is a good substitute for black powder shooting as is clean shot.
              > If you are just reenacting you'll find that cleaning your piece is
              > easier. If you are live fire shooting or hunting the delay between fire
              > in the pan and in the bore is somewhat longer and can affect accuracy,
              > but over all the black powder substitutes are fine in most guns and give
              > plenty of boom and smoke.
              > your most humble servant, Thos. Quinn
              >
              >
              > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes book and movie reviews, a list
              of sutlers, RevList member photos, etc., at
              >
              > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
              >
              >
            • Joseph & Christine
              Sean & List, ... From whence comes this? According to the Pyrodex web page, Pyrodex is a propellant designed for use in muzzleloading and black powder
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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                Sean & List,

                > ARE YOU NUTS??!!!???!!! Advice like that gets people hurt or worse.
                > Pyrodex is meant for use in modern designed black powder weapons, not
                > Bess's and Charley's or flintlock rifles.

                From whence comes this? According to the Pyrodex web page, "Pyrodex is a
                propellant designed for use in muzzleloading and black powder cartridge arms
                found by a competent gunsmith to be in good shootable condition." I trust
                our muskets fall into that category. Are you thinking of Pyrodex pellets?
                According to Hogdon (the manufacturer of Pyrodex) "Pyrodex Pellets are
                specifically designed for use with in-line rifles. The ignition pad is
                placed on the end to facilitate proper ignition. A side lock would not place
                the flash from the percussion cap in the correct position on the pellet to
                insure good ignition." Read: they work very poorly, if at all, with
                sidelock percussion arms. Don't even think about trying to use them in a
                flintlock.

                > Matter of Fact, it shouldn't be used in any reenacting weapon.

                True, but only because it won't work with blanks - again, according to
                Hogdon, "Pyrodex does not work well in blanks. Unlike blackpowder, Pyrodex
                requires confinement to burn well. Blanks do not offer enough confinement to
                make the Pyrodex work." Virtually every black powder expert I've ever read
                stated that Pyrodex was unsuitable for use in a flintlock, but I can't say
                one way or the other from personal experience, never having used the stuff
                in one. Thos. Quinn offered the first written statement contradicting this
                position since Hogdon first invented the stuff.

                I note that Hogdon is silent on its suitability for use with flintlocks.

                > If used in a musket with a live round.. your talking
                > a BIG BOOM, like the firelock exploding and your face exploding....

                I'd be very interested in any docuementaion on this. Pyrodex is designed to
                be a substitute _by volume_ (as opposed to weight) for black powder,
                including pressure. Now yes, if you weigh the charges, an equal weight of
                Pyrodex is going to give you more boom black powder - that's one of their
                selling points ("More shots per pound") and it's also why they tell you to
                use a volumetric measure. But if you do so (which I think we all do) you
                should have no problems as far as pressure goes. True, it is considered a
                "smokeless" powder, which we should all know is not to be used in a
                muzzleloader. But again, back to the Hogden's Pyrodex FAQ page, "Pyrodex is
                not a true, smokeless powder. Pyrodex does not contain nitrocellulose in any
                quantity. Pyrodex is considered to require the same handling and precautions
                while in transit as smokeless powder. The United States Department of
                Transportation has assigned the classification of "smokeless" to Pyrodex
                rather than the classification "Explosive" that is given to blackpowder.
                Pyrodex is safe in any firearm designed for the use of blackpowder."

                Let the panic subside.

                Joseph Ruckman
              • Joseph & Christine
                ... And of course, that should have read more boom _than_ black powder. Joseph Ruckman
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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                  > Pyrodex is going to give you more boom black powder

                  And of course, that should have read "more boom _than_ black powder."

                  Joseph Ruckman
                • sean
                  pyrodex does burn at a higer rate, though not as high as smokeless powder. Point of interest, most firelocks sold specifically say For Black Powder Use Only ,
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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                    pyrodex does burn at a higer rate, though not as high as smokeless powder.
                    Point of interest, most firelocks sold specifically say "For Black Powder
                    Use Only", don't ya' think they would say Pyrodex or other BP substitute
                    would be o.k.? Also the use of pyrodex will ruin the rifling in an iron
                    barreled rifle, by causing pitting, in a flintlock, the pyrodex will damage
                    the touch hole, frizzen, pan, etc. The biggest risk is the firing of live
                    rounds, as mr. quinn stated it will cause a delay in firing leading to the
                    dreaded hang-fire. Just to correct your statement on BP being classified as
                    "explosive" by the DOT and pyrodex as "smokeless". The DOT still considers
                    Pyrodex as an explosive, along with ciggarette lighters. The ATF has
                    dropped BP from an "explosive" to a "propellent", which is why you can
                    purchase 25+ pds. w/o a FFL (but there are other regs. to tie u up).The
                    whole point of my response was that advice like that is unfair to the
                    possible newcomer who uses Revlist as a source of help. Just be aware also
                    that the 3 big Rev War re-enactment organizations (BAR, BB, CL) all forbid
                    pyrodex.


                    cheers,

                    sean
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Joseph & Christine <malruck@...>
                    To: <Revlist@egroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 7:14 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Revlist] gunpowder purchasing


                    > Sean & List,
                    >
                    > > ARE YOU NUTS??!!!???!!! Advice like that gets people hurt or worse.
                    > > Pyrodex is meant for use in modern designed black powder weapons, not
                    > > Bess's and Charley's or flintlock rifles.
                    >
                    > >From whence comes this? According to the Pyrodex web page, "Pyrodex is a
                    > propellant designed for use in muzzleloading and black powder cartridge
                    arms
                    > found by a competent gunsmith to be in good shootable condition." I trust
                    > our muskets fall into that category. Are you thinking of Pyrodex pellets?
                    > According to Hogdon (the manufacturer of Pyrodex) "Pyrodex Pellets are
                    > specifically designed for use with in-line rifles. The ignition pad is
                    > placed on the end to facilitate proper ignition. A side lock would not
                    place
                    > the flash from the percussion cap in the correct position on the pellet to
                    > insure good ignition." Read: they work very poorly, if at all, with
                    > sidelock percussion arms. Don't even think about trying to use them in a
                    > flintlock.
                    >
                    > > Matter of Fact, it shouldn't be used in any reenacting weapon.
                    >
                    > True, but only because it won't work with blanks - again, according to
                    > Hogdon, "Pyrodex does not work well in blanks. Unlike blackpowder,
                    Pyrodex
                    > requires confinement to burn well. Blanks do not offer enough confinement
                    to
                    > make the Pyrodex work." Virtually every black powder expert I've ever
                    read
                    > stated that Pyrodex was unsuitable for use in a flintlock, but I can't say
                    > one way or the other from personal experience, never having used the stuff
                    > in one. Thos. Quinn offered the first written statement contradicting
                    this
                    > position since Hogdon first invented the stuff.
                    >
                    > I note that Hogdon is silent on its suitability for use with flintlocks.
                    >
                    > > If used in a musket with a live round.. your talking
                    > > a BIG BOOM, like the firelock exploding and your face exploding....
                    >
                    > I'd be very interested in any docuementaion on this. Pyrodex is designed
                    to
                    > be a substitute _by volume_ (as opposed to weight) for black powder,
                    > including pressure. Now yes, if you weigh the charges, an equal weight of
                    > Pyrodex is going to give you more boom black powder - that's one of their
                    > selling points ("More shots per pound") and it's also why they tell you to
                    > use a volumetric measure. But if you do so (which I think we all do) you
                    > should have no problems as far as pressure goes. True, it is considered a
                    > "smokeless" powder, which we should all know is not to be used in a
                    > muzzleloader. But again, back to the Hogden's Pyrodex FAQ page, "Pyrodex
                    is
                    > not a true, smokeless powder. Pyrodex does not contain nitrocellulose in
                    any
                    > quantity. Pyrodex is considered to require the same handling and
                    precautions
                    > while in transit as smokeless powder. The United States Department of
                    > Transportation has assigned the classification of "smokeless" to Pyrodex
                    > rather than the classification "Explosive" that is given to blackpowder.
                    > Pyrodex is safe in any firearm designed for the use of blackpowder."
                    >
                    > Let the panic subside.
                    >
                    > Joseph Ruckman
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes book and movie reviews, a list
                    of sutlers, RevList member photos, etc., at
                    >
                    > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                    >
                    >
                  • thomas j quinn
                    sir, pyrodex is a volume for volume substitute for black powder, generating the same pressures as the original powder. it can be used in all muzzleloading
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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                      sir,
                      pyrodex is a volume for volume substitute for black powder, generating
                      the same pressures as the original powder. it can be used in all
                      muzzleloading firearms, and although I have found it slow to ignite , it
                      is otherwisw safe and satisfactory.
                      Pyrodex pellets are designed for use in in-line muzzleloaders, but again
                      develop the same pressures.
                      It is indeed less pc ( I use black powder), but I am unaware of any data
                      indicating danger.
                      And as a matter of fact I am not nuts.
                    • thomas j quinn
                      sean, feel free to contact me off line to discuss this T.Quinn
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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                        sean,
                        feel free to contact me off line to discuss this
                        T.Quinn
                      • Joseph & Christine
                        Sean & List, ... Agreed. Neither does it burn at so high a rate as to pose a danger to ML shooters, either. ... Why should they bother? It s Hogden s
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 1, 2000
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                          Sean & List,

                          > pyrodex does burn at a higer rate, though not as high as smokeless powder.

                          Agreed. Neither does it burn at so high a rate as to pose a danger to ML
                          shooters, either.

                          > Point of interest, most firelocks sold specifically say "For Black Powder
                          > Use Only", don't ya' think they would say Pyrodex or other BP substitute
                          > would be o.k.?

                          Why should they bother? It's Hogden's problem, not theirs. Substitute BP
                          makers are the ones on the hook for making good on the the claim that their
                          product is a "suitable substitute" for black powder. (There are other BP
                          subs on the market besides Pyrodex.) The gun manufacturers couldn't care
                          less.

                          > Also the use of pyrodex will ruin the rifling in an iron
                          > barreled rifle, by causing pitting, in a flintlock, the pyrodex will
                          > damage the touch hole, frizzen, pan, etc.

                          So will black powder - both require cleaning. In the early days of Pyrodex,
                          a myth evolved that one didn't need to clean with Pyrodex. Not true.

                          > The biggest risk is the firing of live
                          > rounds, as mr. quinn stated it will cause a delay in firing leading to the
                          > dreaded hang-fire.

                          Definitely a problem, which is why everything I've ever read save Mr. Quinn
                          indicates that Pyrodex is unsuitable for flintlocks.

                          > Just to correct your statement on BP being classified as
                          > "explosive" by the DOT and pyrodex as "smokeless". The DOT still
                          > considers Pyrodex as an explosive, along with ciggarette lighters. The
                          > ATF has dropped BP from an "explosive" to a "propellent", which is
                          > why you can purchase 25+ pds. w/o a FFL (but there are other regs.
                          > to tie u up).

                          It's not my statement, it's Hogdon's. Hence the quotes.

                          > The whole point of my response was that advice like that is unfair to the
                          > possible newcomer who uses Revlist as a source of help.

                          I have no problem with that.

                          > Just be aware also that the 3 big Rev War re-enactment
                          > organizations (BAR, BB, CL) all forbid pyrodex.

                          Since the manufacturer flatly states that it doesn't work in blanks, this is
                          a good policy. I don't think it has anything to do with safety or the risk
                          of blowing up one's firelock.

                          Regards,

                          Joseph Ruckman
                        • Ralph Burke
                          ... Some guns DO say that. I have 2 guns from Traditions marked : READ AND UNDERSTAND INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE USE BLACK POWDER OR PYRODEX ONLY. DO NOT USE
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 2, 2000
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                            <snip>
                            > > Point of interest, most firelocks sold specifically say "For Black
                            >Powder Use Only", don't ya' think they would say Pyrodex or other BP
                            >substitute would be o.k.?

                            Some guns DO say that. I have 2 guns from Traditions marked :

                            READ AND UNDERSTAND INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE USE
                            BLACK POWDER OR PYRODEX ONLY. DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER.


                            >Why should they bother? It's Hogden's problem, not theirs. Substitute >BP
                            >makers are the ones on the hook for making good on the the claim >that
                            >their product is a "suitable substitute" for black powder. (There >are
                            >other BP subs on the market besides Pyrodex.) The gun >manufacturers
                            >couldn't care less.

                            Yes. Like it says, read and understand before use.


                            >
                            > > Also the use of pyrodex will ruin the rifling in an iron
                            > > barreled rifle, by causing pitting, in a flintlock, the pyrodex will
                            > > damage the touch hole, frizzen, pan, etc.
                            >
                            >So will black powder - both require cleaning. In the early days of
                            >Pyrodex,
                            >a myth evolved that one didn't need to clean with Pyrodex. Not true.


                            Very true. Although Pyro seems more corrosive, in my experience, both
                            require thorough cleaning or rusting will result.

                            YHS,

                            RJB

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                          • Bob Shanahan
                            Hey Tom... No Pyrodex, as you ve read. Bob Shanahan ... of sutlers, RevList member photos, etc., at
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 2, 2000
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                              Hey Tom...
                              No Pyrodex, as you've read.
                              Bob Shanahan

                              ----------
                              > From: thomas j quinn <quinn53@...>
                              > To: Revlist@egroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [Revlist] gunpowder purchasing
                              > Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 5:30 PM
                              >
                              > Pyrodex is a good substitute for black powder shooting as is clean shot.
                              > If you are just reenacting you'll find that cleaning your piece is
                              > easier. If you are live fire shooting or hunting the delay between fire
                              > in the pan and in the bore is somewhat longer and can affect accuracy,
                              > but over all the black powder substitutes are fine in most guns and give
                              > plenty of boom and smoke.
                              > your most humble servant, Thos. Quinn
                              >
                              >
                              > Visit the RevList Homepage, which includes book and movie reviews, a list
                              of sutlers, RevList member photos, etc., at
                              >
                              > http://www.liming.org/revlist/
                              >
                            • thomas j quinn
                              I NEVER SAID I USED IT WHILE RE ENACTING, I TRIED IT IN SHOOTING.
                              Message 14 of 14 , Nov 3, 2000
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                                I NEVER SAID I USED IT WHILE RE ENACTING, I TRIED IT IN SHOOTING.
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