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Dining in the 18th C.

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  • Alexander Bosch
    Dear List: Whole Shelves could be filled with Books concerning the Silverware of the english 18th C., what Porcelain laid on the Table and how a mid-1760s
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 7, 2013
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      Dear List:

      Whole Shelves could be filled with Books concerning the Silverware of the english 18th C., what Porcelain laid on the Table and how a mid-1760s Wine-Glass looked like.

      However, I would like to ask, if there are an decent Books or Papers out, that deal with the non-material Side of a fine Diner in Societies upper Parts? Any books on Etiquette, Writings on how a Diner was structured and Papers regarding the Layout and use of Utensils and Foods?

      If so, I would greatly apreciate recommendations.

      Alex
    • Sgt42rhr
      Ditto Alex! Cheers, John John M. Johnston “P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried; therefore I beg you to write and let me
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 7, 2013
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        Ditto Alex!

        Cheers,
        John

        John M. Johnston
        “P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried; therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

        On Mar 7, 2013, at 6:30 PM, "Alexander Bosch" <lobster1768@...> wrote:

        > Dear List:
        >
        > Whole Shelves could be filled with Books concerning the Silverware of the english 18th C., what Porcelain laid on the Table and how a mid-1760s Wine-Glass looked like.
        >
        > However, I would like to ask, if there are an decent Books or Papers out, that deal with the non-material Side of a fine Diner in Societies upper Parts? Any books on Etiquette, Writings on how a Diner was structured and Papers regarding the Layout and use of Utensils and Foods?
        >
        > If so, I would greatly apreciate recommendations.
        >
        > Alex
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Alexander Bosch
        I somehow refuse to believe that not a single other Person has ever concerned him/herself with periode Dining. Given the number of not-so-base Civilians and
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 11, 2013
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          I somehow refuse to believe that not a single other Person has ever concerned him/herself with periode Dining.

          Given the number of not-so-base Civilians and Officers of various to high Ranks, who must eat, there must be someone who has tried to learn something about this manner...


          or am I misguided in thinking so?

          A.
        • Joseph Ruckman
          ... I suspect you may be, Alex. I ve seen the occasional interpretation of officers dining, but it s pretty rare. Further, I believe in the 18th c etiquette
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 11, 2013
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            > Given the number of not-so-base Civilians and Officers of various to high Ranks, who must eat, there must be someone who has tried to learn something about this manner...
            >
            >
            > or am I misguided in thinking so?

            I suspect you may be, Alex. I've seen the occasional interpretation of officers dining, but it's pretty rare. Further, I believe in the 18th c etiquette was more directed to how you behaved toward others than how to set a table or which fork to use, assuming you have more than one. Washington's mess kit give us a clue that he at least used only one knife, fork and spoon at any given meal, at least while in the field. However, here's a website that may help you -
            http://www.larsdatter.com/18c/etiquette.html

            Regards,

            Joseph
          • Alexander Bosch
            Well, I do not think much of how to seize a fork or with which fingers to hold the wine glass. But more in dimensions of how was the food served, what has been
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 11, 2013
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              Well, I do not think much of how to seize a fork or with which fingers to hold the wine glass. But more in dimensions of how was the food served, what has been the duties of the servants, what were the diners expected to do by themselves etc. etc.

              whilest we're at it, a general idea what servants were to do, not only during diners, would be neat to have.

              A.




              ________________________________
              From: Joseph Ruckman <josephr4570@...>
              To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:40 PM
              Subject: [Revlist] Re: Dining in the 18th C.


               
              > Given the number of not-so-base Civilians and Officers of various to high Ranks, who must eat, there must be someone who has tried to learn something about this manner...
              >
              >
              > or am I misguided in thinking so?

              I suspect you may be, Alex. I've seen the occasional interpretation of officers dining, but it's pretty rare. Further, I believe in the 18th c etiquette was more directed to how you behaved toward others than how to set a table or which fork to use, assuming you have more than one. Washington's mess kit give us a clue that he at least used only one knife, fork and spoon at any given meal, at least while in the field. However, here's a website that may help you -
              http://www.larsdatter.com/18c/etiquette.html

              Regards,

              Joseph




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Art Kenney
              http://books.google.com/books?id=9tJbAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=servant+butler+footman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aCs-UarROubl0gH-zYCQBA&ved=0CC8Q6wEwAA ... Art Kenney
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 11, 2013
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                http://books.google.com/books?id=9tJbAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=servant+butler+footman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aCs-UarROubl0gH-zYCQBA&ved=0CC8Q6wEwAA

                :)


                Art Kenney




                To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                From: lobster1768@...
                Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 11:57:52 -0700
                Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: Dining in the 18th C.





                Well, I do not think much of how to seize a fork or with which fingers to hold the wine glass. But more in dimensions of how was the food served, what has been the duties of the servants, what were the diners expected to do by themselves etc. etc.

                whilest we're at it, a general idea what servants were to do, not only during diners, would be neat to have.

                A.

                ________________________________
                From: Joseph Ruckman <josephr4570@...>
                To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:40 PM
                Subject: [Revlist] Re: Dining in the 18th C.



                > Given the number of not-so-base Civilians and Officers of various to high Ranks, who must eat, there must be someone who has tried to learn something about this manner...
                >
                >
                > or am I misguided in thinking so?

                I suspect you may be, Alex. I've seen the occasional interpretation of officers dining, but it's pretty rare. Further, I believe in the 18th c etiquette was more directed to how you behaved toward others than how to set a table or which fork to use, assuming you have more than one. Washington's mess kit give us a clue that he at least used only one knife, fork and spoon at any given meal, at least while in the field. However, here's a website that may help you -
                http://www.larsdatter.com/18c/etiquette.html

                Regards,

                Joseph

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • carolkocian
                Sounds like a good discussion for the foodies on Savory Fare: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SavoryFare2/ Also 18cLife: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/18cLife/
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 11, 2013
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                  Sounds like a good discussion for the foodies on Savory Fare:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SavoryFare2/

                  Also 18cLife:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/18cLife/

                  You never know what someone has been researching and ready to share if asked.

                  -Carol


                  > Well, I do not think much of how to seize a fork or with which fingers to
                  > hold the wine glass. But more in dimensions of how was the food served,
                  > what has been the duties of the servants, what were the diners expected to
                  > do by themselves etc. etc.
                  >
                  > whilest we're at it, a general idea what servants were to do, not only
                  > during diners, would be neat to have.
                  >
                  > A.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Joseph Ruckman <josephr4570@...>
                  > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:40 PM
                  > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Dining in the 18th C.
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >> Given the number of not-so-base Civilians and Officers of various to
                  >> high Ranks, who must eat, there must be someone who has tried to learn
                  >> something about this manner...
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> or am I misguided in thinking so?
                  >
                  > I suspect you may be, Alex. I've seen the occasional interpretation of
                  > officers dining, but it's pretty rare. Further, I believe in the 18th c
                  > etiquette was more directed to how you behaved toward others than how to
                  > set a table or which fork to use, assuming you have more than one.
                  > Washington's mess kit give us a clue that he at least used only one knife,
                  > fork and spoon at any given meal, at least while in the field. However,
                  > here's a website that may help you -
                  > http://www.larsdatter.com/18c/etiquette.html
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Joseph
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > To subscribe to Revlist, please go to the home page at
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/ and click "Join This Group!"
                  >
                  > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
                  > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • The Hairy Loon
                  Thank you Art for that, a very funny satirical book by Jonathan Swift, I ll enjoy reading it all the way through, a great satirist of the 1700s, try reading A
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 11, 2013
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                    Thank you Art for that, a very funny satirical book by Jonathan Swift, I'll
                    enjoy reading it all the way through, a great satirist of the 1700s, try
                    reading A Modest Proposal for more of his work.
                    David.
                    Royal Corps of Sappers And Miners (1812)

                    On 11 March 2013 19:08, Art Kenney <wakenney@...> wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > http://books.google.com/books?id=9tJbAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=servant+butler+footman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aCs-UarROubl0gH-zYCQBA&ved=0CC8Q6wEwAA
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Art Kenney
                    That was satire? For a more serious answer to the question of servants, look for the books by Trusler. Domestic Management and 1 or 2 others cover the topic
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 11, 2013
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                      That was satire?

                      For a more serious answer to the question of servants, look for the books by Trusler. "Domestic Management" and 1 or 2 others cover the topic near our chosen period.


                      Art Kenney




                      To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                      From: the.hairy.loon@...
                      Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:31:51 +0000
                      Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: Dining in the 18th C.





                      Thank you Art for that, a very funny satirical book by Jonathan Swift, I'll
                      enjoy reading it all the way through, a great satirist of the 1700s, try
                      reading A Modest Proposal for more of his work.
                      David.
                      Royal Corps of Sappers And Miners (1812)

                      On 11 March 2013 19:08, Art Kenney <wakenney@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > http://books.google.com/books?id=9tJbAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=servant+butler+footman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aCs-UarROubl0gH-zYCQBA&ved=0CC8Q6wEwAA
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Sgt42rhr
                      Thank you Art, could you suggest the title(s)? Thank you, Sir , J~ John M. Johnston “P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 11, 2013
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                        Thank you Art, could you suggest the title(s)?

                        Thank you, Sir ,
                        J~

                        John M. Johnston
                        “P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried; therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

                        On Mar 11, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Art Kenney <wakenney@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > That was satire?
                        >
                        > For a more serious answer to the question of servants, look for the books by Trusler. "Domestic Management" and 1 or 2 others cover the topic near our chosen period.
                        >
                        >
                        > Art Kenney
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: the.hairy.loon@...
                        > Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:31:51 +0000
                        > Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: Dining in the 18th C.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thank you Art for that, a very funny satirical book by Jonathan Swift, I'll
                        > enjoy reading it all the way through, a great satirist of the 1700s, try
                        > reading A Modest Proposal for more of his work.
                        > David.
                        > Royal Corps of Sappers And Miners (1812)
                        >
                        > On 11 March 2013 19:08, Art Kenney <wakenney@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> http://books.google.com/books?id=9tJbAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=servant+butler+footman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aCs-UarROubl0gH-zYCQBA&ved=0CC8Q6wEwAA
                        >>
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > To subscribe to Revlist, please go to the home page at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/ and click "Join This Group!"
                        >
                        > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Art Kenney
                        I would suggest using google book search. Look for the author John Trusler. It s all right in our period and covers a wide breadth of topics. One interesting
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 12, 2013
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                          I would suggest using google book search. Look for the author John Trusler. It's all right in our period and covers a wide breadth of topics. One interesting one is "The London Adviser and Guide." Not too much specific details on how to be polite or a gentleman, no "thou shalt not"s or anything, but a good guide that will give you a general sense.

                          I have not found an online copy of "Domestic Management" anywhere. If anyone does, I would appreciate a link.

                          art







                          To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                          From: Sgt42RHR@...
                          Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 23:05:25 -0400
                          Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: Dining in the 18th C.





                          Thank you Art, could you suggest the title(s)?

                          Thank you, Sir ,
                          J~

                          John M. Johnston
                          �P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried; therefore I beg you to write and let me know.� - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

                          On Mar 11, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Art Kenney <wakenney@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > That was satire?
                          >
                          > For a more serious answer to the question of servants, look for the books by Trusler. "Domestic Management" and 1 or 2 others cover the topic near our chosen period.
                          >
                          >
                          > Art Kenney
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: the.hairy.loon@...
                          > Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:31:51 +0000
                          > Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: Dining in the 18th C.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Thank you Art for that, a very funny satirical book by Jonathan Swift, I'll
                          > enjoy reading it all the way through, a great satirist of the 1700s, try
                          > reading A Modest Proposal for more of his work.
                          > David.
                          > Royal Corps of Sappers And Miners (1812)
                          >
                          > On 11 March 2013 19:08, Art Kenney <wakenney@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> http://books.google.com/books?id=9tJbAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=servant+butler+footman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aCs-UarROubl0gH-zYCQBA&ved=0CC8Q6wEwAA
                          >>
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > To subscribe to Revlist, please go to the home page at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/ and click "Join This Group!"
                          >
                          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Pat Reber
                          The Trusler book is The Honours of the Table, 1791, at Google Books:
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 12, 2013
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                            The Trusler book is The Honours of the Table, 1791, at Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=CD1FAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=intitle:The+intitle:Honours+intitle:of+intitle:the+intitle:Table+inauthor:Trusler&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gi0_UauAAu2F0QHtzICwCw&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

                            There is so much detail on every aspect of service... from placing the soup tureen, to using utensils, to how to carve at the table. I was researching a Federal table for a museum where Lafayette had eaten and came across bits of information in cookbooks, manners books, diaries and a few complete books such as Trusler and a little later, Robert Roberts' The House Servant's Directory,1827, at Feeding America: http://digital.lib.msu.edu/projects/cookbooks/html/books/book_05.cfm (there is also a very similar British author's version, just before Roberts- who was from Massachussetts)

                            Here is some information on the dining tables at camp which you might find interesting... the first part is RevWar, the second is Civil War. http://researchingfoodhistory.blogspot.com/2012/10/campaign-tables.html

                            Pat Reber



                            Patricia Bixler Reber
                            http://researchingfoodhistory.blogspot.com
                            www.hearthcook.com culinary history resources online



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Jane Pease
                            Carlyle House in Alexandia VA wii present F&I era program on A Sent from my iPhone
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 12, 2013
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                              Carlyle House in Alexandia VA wii present F&I era program on A

                              Sent from my iPhone
                            • Jane Pease
                              Apologies for my last premature reply. Actually,a great deal of research has been done. CW presented a symposium a few years ago. One of the several excellent
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 12, 2013
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                                Apologies for my last premature reply.

                                Actually,a great deal of research has been done. CW presented a symposium a few years ago. One of the several excellent speakers was Ivan Day, who has written several books on 18&19c dining and food in Europe. I highly recommend his books. Also check with the CW Foodways program which has done significant research.

                                On April 6, Carlyle House in Alexandria VA willpresent a F&I era program on the Braddock meeting with the colonial governors prior to the Braddock expedition. The program will include a formal dinner with 18c food served in the 18c manner.

                                Consider checking in with the Savory Fare 2 Yahoogroup.

                                Jane in No VA



                                Sent from my iPhone
                              • lrs_jersey
                                Alex, There are a number of good references but perhaps the best to start with would be The Festive Tradition by Louise Belden. It was published some years
                                Message 15 of 15 , Mar 15, 2013
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                                  Alex,

                                  There are a number of good references but perhaps the best to start with would be "The Festive Tradition" by Louise Belden. It was published some years back but an excellent resource. "Dining at Monticello" by Damon Lee Fowler would be another. If you look in other books with less obvious titles, you can still find a wealth of information with excerpts of accounts of dining experiences, inventories or descriptions of the food, how it was served, etc. Chastellux's "Travels in North America" is one such book as are similar accounts of travels and journeys. Which will serve you best depends on what exactly you're looking for -- upper class dining at home, in hostelries, at special banquets; dining among the British military elite; or merely normative customs of the "middling sort" in Colonial America.

                                  Larry


                                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Alexander Bosch" <lobster1768@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear List:
                                  >
                                  > Whole Shelves could be filled with Books concerning the Silverware of the english 18th C., what Porcelain laid on the Table and how a mid-1760s Wine-Glass looked like.
                                  >
                                  > However, I would like to ask, if there are an decent Books or Papers out, that deal with the non-material Side of a fine Diner in Societies upper Parts? Any books on Etiquette, Writings on how a Diner was structured and Papers regarding the Layout and use of Utensils and Foods?
                                  >
                                  > If so, I would greatly apreciate recommendations.
                                  >
                                  > Alex
                                  >
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