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Re: Watchoats "of the Hussar Kind" what does it mean?

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  • Todd Post
    Watchcoats and cloaks are covered in Mark Tully s The Packet III . Everyone in our time period should own this series, they re only $10 each.
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 25, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Watchcoats and cloaks are covered in Mark Tully's "The Packet III". Everyone in our time period should own this series, they're only $10 each.

      http://www.ballindalloch-press.com/packet3.html

      The Packet III, Being Yet Another Collection of Patterns, Articles and Essays Pertaining to the American Revolution by Mark Tully

      The Packet III has even more completely documented, illustrated and footnoted articles full of great information for the reenactor and 18th-century scholar. Included are military dress, watchcoats and cloaks, a pattern for forage caps, a pattern for hand knit mittens and sewn mittens, knapsacks, military markings, and more.

      48 pages, 8 1/2" � 11"
      complete bibliography
      ISBN 1-893832-10-4

      Cheers,
      Todd


      On 02/25/13, Alexander John Good wrote:

      I think you just need to get a Henry Cooke watchcoat pattern, since this is easily obtainable and documented, used by many British regiments during the AWI, and doesn't involve all sorts of pattern drafting.

      My two Pence.

      Alex Good

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Feb 25, 2013, at 10:17 AM, Alexander Bosch <lobster1768@...> wrote:

      > Hi.
      >
      > with these Armslits, the garment is hardly complicated... just do a vertical Slash to the Fabric. Remembering that Work was cheap, hastily attaching a narrow strip of Cloth, easily cut from the cloaks leftover Material, should not have been a great cost.
      >
      > And the Idea of these arm slits is, that you can keep your Arms inside a Cloak, but as soon as neccessary, just stretch out your Arm, and it is through the slits an you are free do do whatever you want.
      >
      > If the Red colour is all, that distinguished a Huzzar-Cloak from a boring, normal Cloak, then I wonder why (at least) both Cuthbertson and the 37th referred to a Huzzar Cloak, but wish for it to be blue.
      >
      > That would be like going to a Tailor, specifically ordering a pink Suit, but specifying it to be green. And argumenting on a basis that Pink suits are superior and more practical than others.
      >
      > In reading Cuthbertson, he makes it clear, that the Huzzarkind of Cloak is superior for having some Benefit over other Designs in regards o how to get your Hands free...a thing, that i doubt colour alone would achieve.
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: jackfortune jackfortune@...>
      > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 11:16 AM
      > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Watchoats "of the Hussar Kind" what does it mean?
      >
      >
      >
      > if you can get access to an Osprey title: Men-at-Arms 413 'Austrian Frontier Troops 1740-1798' you will find plentiful reference to the 'Abba-mantel'- the red cloak of the 'Pandours' or Grenzers.
      >
      > In a separate title: Warrior 81 'Hungarian Hussar 1756-1815' it is explained that Hussars in the 1750's still wore the same cloak as the
      > Grenzers. A modern image used as the cover illustration demonstrates how the edges of the large collar of the cloak could be buttoned together to form a hood.
      >
      > See: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hungarian-Hussar-1756-1815-Warrior-Hollins/dp/1841765244/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361786428&sr=8-1#reader_1841765244
      >
      > As the origin of Cuthbertson's reference to 'Hussar-cloaks', this seems more likely than your friend's proposal regarding arm openings. The necessity to withdraw the arms in order to throw back the cloak would defeat the purpose as described by Cuthbertson as well as rendering a simple practical garment unnecessarily complicated- and more expensive.
      >
      > Good luck with your search for examples but I suspect it will be a red herring. I have seen no examples of such a garment in the Balkan military context.
      >
      > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Bosch wrote:
      > >
      > > Thanks for your Input, Sir.
      > >
      > > I agree with you on the Cape. On the Rest of the Coat, I have been thinking:
      > >
      > >
      > > I have been talking with some People, and have a new "Idea".
      > >
      > > It almost sounds, as if C. thinks of one special Kind of Cloak, and I think i have a clue...
      > > I have recalled (darkly, though) to have seen Overgarments of 16th to 17th C. Origin, that were basically Cloaks, but had Slits or Holes for the Arms. Sometimes just primitive Slits, sometimes covered with crazy Numbers of Buttons and buttonholes, they seem to have been used like normal Cloaks. Only that, if neccessary, a Man could get his Hands/Arms free, by simply sticking them out, through these Openings. Sometimes, a strip of Cloth was sewn to these Slits, to create an Overlap that helps keeping out Rain and Wind.
      > >
      > > In conversing with a Friend, who is more mid-1700s Prussian oriented, he assured me, that he has seen something exactly like that in context with some eastern European Troops, possibly Cavalry.
      > >
      > > So now I am beginning to think, that the "Hussar" Talk is just a reference to generic eastern People and a perceived Origin of Armslits in Cloak with those People.
      > >
      > > A cloak of this Fashion would be quite simple, fitting all People regardless of Size, and dispite beeing Calf-length, would have narrow strips of Cloth Overlapping the Slits, like "small flaps" that are easily thrown back to allow freeing the Hands.
      > >
      > > Also, when the Rain really pi--es down on a Sentry, he can always get his Firelock underneat the cloak as well, to keep it dry.
      > >
      > > The Garment fashioned this Way does, in my Opinion, make perfect Sense with C.'s writings and seems practical.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I would only now want to find out, if any Cloaks with Armslits are known to exist for the 18th C. If so, I am inclined to sew up a Watchcloak just this Way.
      > >
      > >
      > > Alex
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: jackfortune
      > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 7:28 PM
      > > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Watchoats "of the Hussar Kind" what does it mean?
      > >
      > >
      > > Â
      > > Alex, it may be of interest to see how the group here
      > >
      > > http://www.33rdfoot.org/
      > >
      > > interpret the 'watch coat' in relation to description of Cuthbertson's 'Hussar-cloak'.
      > >
      > > JF
      > >
      > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Bosch wrote:
      > > >
      > >
      > > > Page 85
      > > >
      > > > "As every attention should be observed, for making Soldiers comfortable, and able to perform their Duty, without injury to their constitutions, a proper number of * Huzzar-Cloaks ought to be provided, for the use, of [...]the Centries. [...] and have a large falling cape, to cover the cead occasionally [...]"
      > > >
      > > > "* Huzzar-Cloaks are more convenient for Centinels, than any other kind, as by throwing back the short Flaps of them, their hands are quite disengaged to handle their Arms"
      > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • jackfortune
      Alex, The issue is not the colour. The red colour of the cloaks was simply a distinctive feature of the Austrian Grenzers for the previous generation who
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 25, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Alex,

        The issue is not the colour. The red colour of the cloaks was simply a distinctive feature of the Austrian 'Grenzers' for the previous generation who knew of them as as the feared 'Pandours' or 'Croats.' The key element for the benefit of Cuthbertson's notional British soldier would be the thick wool and the "large falling cape" that could be buttoned up into a hood "to cover the head occasionally."

        With regard to the arm-slits, each one would require to be hemmed and additional cloth binding to resist wear and tear, so not quite so simple. Apart from the fact that there is no evidence of such a garment that I am aware of, the advantage you assign to such an arrangement seems to be the opposite of what Cuthbertson describes-

        "Huzzar-Cloaks are more convenient for Centinels, than any other kind, as by throwing back the short Flaps of them, their hands are quite disengaged to handle their Arms"

        Would a man with his hands thrust though his cloak fabric be "disengaged"; how, for instance, would he reach his cartouche box?

        The "short flaps" are admittedly confusing and seem to describe something shorter than the calf length cloak of the Grenzers but these anomalies keep us entertained on winters' nights.

        I'll leave Alex to comment on 'watch coats' Good luck with your search.

        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Bosch <lobster1768@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi.
        >
        > with these Armslits, the garment is hardly complicated... just do a vertical Slash to the Fabric. Remembering that Work was cheap, hastily attaching a narrow strip of Cloth, easily cut from the cloaks leftover Material, should not have been a great cost.
        >
        > And the Idea of these arm slits is, that you can keep your Arms inside a Cloak, but as soon as neccessary, just stretch out your Arm, and it is through the slits an you are free do do whatever you want.
        >
        >
        > If the Red colour is all, that distinguished a Huzzar-Cloak from a boring, normal Cloak, then I wonder why (at least) both Cuthbertson and the 37th referred to a Huzzar Cloak, but wish for it to be blue.
        >
        > That would be like going to a Tailor, specifically ordering a pink Suit, but specifying it to be green. And argumenting on a basis that Pink suits are superior and more practical than others.
        >
        > In reading Cuthbertson, he makes it clear, that the Huzzarkind of Cloak is superior for having some Benefit over other Designs in regards o how to get your Hands free...a thing, that i doubt colour alone would achieve.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: jackfortune <jackfortune@...>
        > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 11:16 AM
        > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Watchoats "of the Hussar Kind" what does it mean?
        >
        >
        >  
        > if you can get access to an Osprey title: Men-at-Arms 413 'Austrian Frontier Troops 1740-1798' you will find plentiful reference to the 'Abba-mantel'- the red cloak of the 'Pandours' or Grenzers.
        >
        > In a separate title: Warrior 81 'Hungarian Hussar 1756-1815' it is explained that Hussars in the 1750's still wore the same cloak as the
        > Grenzers. A modern image used as the cover illustration demonstrates how the edges of the large collar of the cloak could be buttoned together to form a hood.
        >
        > See: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hungarian-Hussar-1756-1815-Warrior-Hollins/dp/1841765244/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361786428&sr=8-1#reader_1841765244
        >
        > As the origin of Cuthbertson's reference to 'Hussar-cloaks', this seems more likely than your friend's proposal regarding arm openings. The necessity to withdraw the arms in order to throw back the cloak would defeat the purpose as described by Cuthbertson as well as rendering a simple practical garment unnecessarily complicated- and more expensive.
        >
        > Good luck with your search for examples but I suspect it will be a red herring. I have seen no examples of such a garment in the Balkan military context.
        >
        > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Bosch wrote:
        > >
        > > Thanks for your Input, Sir.
        > >
        > > I agree with you on the Cape. On the Rest of the Coat, I have been thinking:
        > >
        > >
        > > I have been talking with some People, and have a new "Idea".
        > >
        > > It almost sounds, as if C. thinks of one special Kind of Cloak, and I think i have a clue...
        > > I have recalled (darkly, though) to have seen Overgarments of 16th to 17th C. Origin, that were basically Cloaks, but had Slits or Holes for the Arms. Sometimes just primitive Slits, sometimes covered with crazy Numbers of Buttons and buttonholes, they seem to have been used like normal Cloaks. Only that, if neccessary, a Man could get his Hands/Arms free, by simply sticking them out, through these Openings. Sometimes, a strip of Cloth was sewn to these Slits, to create an Overlap that helps keeping out Rain and Wind.
        > >
        > > In conversing with a Friend, who is more mid-1700s Prussian oriented, he assured me, that he has seen something exactly like that in context with some eastern European Troops, possibly Cavalry.
        > >
        > > So now I am beginning to think, that the "Hussar" Talk is just a reference to generic eastern People and a perceived Origin of Armslits in Cloak with those People.
        > >
        > > A cloak of this Fashion would be quite simple, fitting all People regardless of Size, and dispite beeing Calf-length, would have narrow strips of Cloth Overlapping the Slits, like "small flaps" that are easily thrown back to allow freeing the Hands.
        > >
        > > Also, when the Rain really pi--es down on a Sentry, he can always get his Firelock underneat the cloak as well, to keep it dry.
        > >
        > > The Garment fashioned this Way does, in my Opinion, make perfect Sense with C.'s writings and seems practical.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I would only now want to find out, if any Cloaks with Armslits are known to exist for the 18th C. If so, I am inclined to sew up a Watchcloak just this Way.
        > >
        > >
        > > Alex
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: jackfortune
        > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 7:28 PM
        > > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Watchoats "of the Hussar Kind" what does it mean?
        > >
        > >
        > >  
        > > Alex, it may be of interest to see how the group here
        > >
        > > http://www.33rdfoot.org/
        > >
        > > interpret the 'watch coat' in relation to description of Cuthbertson's 'Hussar-cloak'.
        > >
        > > JF
        > >
        > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Bosch wrote:
        > > >
        > >
        > > > Page 85
        > > >
        > > > "As every attention should be observed, for making Soldiers comfortable, and able to perform their Duty, without injury to their constitutions, a proper number of * Huzzar-Cloaks ought to be provided, for the use, of [...]the Centries. [...] and have a large falling cape, to cover the cead occasionally [...]"
        > > >
        > > > "* Huzzar-Cloaks are more convenient for Centinels, than any other kind, as by throwing back the short Flaps of them, their hands are quite disengaged to handle their Arms"
        > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Alexander Bosch
        Hm. I think a Cloak of thin Wool would be of little use, so I would be amazed to find only Hussars intelligent enough to come up with the Idea of using thick
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 25, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Hm.

          I think a Cloak of thin Wool would be of little use, so I would be amazed to find only Hussars intelligent enough to come up with the Idea of using thick Cloth on Cloaks. So please allow me to be sceptical regarding the Notion of the cloth being a Speciality of the Huzzar-Cloak. Also, if the cloth were to be the decisive Factor, I'd expect Benny's Text to read more like "Huzar-Cloaks are best, as they are of heavy Cloth", and less like "Huzar Cloaks are best, because something with the Hands"

          Also, if the large Cape would signify a Huzar Cloak, I'd expect the Footnote to read more like "Huzar-Cloaks are best, as they have a large Cape", and less like "Huzar Cloaks are best, because something with the Hands".

          In Addition, if Huzar-cloaks would be normal with a wide Cape, it would be redundant to discribe the Cape itself again (with no mentioning of it being special of Huzar-Cloaks)

          I am sorry, but at this Point, I have to say that a simple Cloak of thick cloth does not ring correct with me.
          somethingis diffrent with this "Huzzar" cloak, and it has to do somehing with the Hands.


          And although we certainly sometimes just cant get to the Core of a Matter for want of more Details, this is one of the Instances were I am convinced that it is just toolazy a Way out, to shrug off the whole darn things as linguistic spasms of a mentally challenged Benny C.

          Periode Texts are challenging at times, but I do not think Cuthbertson was THAT much of a stuttering Idiot.
          For if he really were, we could interpret his mentioning of 'Using Blackball on Shoes' as meaning 'to eat Stockings made of Tin, cooked in Clouds for Breakfast if Christmas and Easter are within 3 Days of each other'. Interpreting texts becomes arbitrary, at best.






          ________________________________
          From: jackfortune <jackfortune@...>
          To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 6:51 PM
          Subject: [Revlist] Re: Watchoats "of the Hussar Kind" what does it mean?


           


          Alex,

          The issue is not the colour. The red colour of the cloaks was simply a distinctive feature of the Austrian 'Grenzers' for the previous generation who knew of them as as the feared 'Pandours' or 'Croats.' The key element for the benefit of Cuthbertson's notional British soldier would be the thick wool and the "large falling cape" that could be buttoned up into a hood "to cover the head occasionally."

          With regard to the arm-slits, each one would require to be hemmed and additional cloth binding to resist wear and tear, so not quite so simple. Apart from the fact that there is no evidence of such a garment that I am aware of, the advantage you assign to such an arrangement seems to be the opposite of what Cuthbertson describes-

          "Huzzar-Cloaks are more convenient for Centinels, than any other kind, as by throwing back the short Flaps of them, their hands are quite disengaged to handle their Arms"

          Would a man with his hands thrust though his cloak fabric be "disengaged"; how, for instance, would he reach his cartouche box?

          The "short flaps" are admittedly confusing and seem to describe something shorter than the calf length cloak of the Grenzers but these anomalies keep us entertained on winters' nights.

          I'll leave Alex to comment on 'watch coats' Good luck with your search.

          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Bosch wrote:
          >
          > Hi.
          >
          > with these Armslits, the garment is hardly complicated... just do a vertical Slash to the Fabric. Remembering that Work was cheap, hastily attaching a narrow strip of Cloth, easily cut from the cloaks leftover Material, should not have been a great cost.
          >
          > And the Idea of these arm slits is, that you can keep your Arms inside a Cloak, but as soon as neccessary, just stretch out your Arm, and it is through the slits an you are free do do whatever you want.
          >
          >
          > If the Red colour is all, that distinguished a Huzzar-Cloak from a boring, normal Cloak, then I wonder why (at least) both Cuthbertson and the 37th referred to a Huzzar Cloak, but wish for it to be blue.
          >
          > That would be like going to a Tailor, specifically ordering a pink Suit, but specifying it to be green. And argumenting on a basis that Pink suits are superior and more practical than others.
          >
          > In reading Cuthbertson, he makes it clear, that the Huzzarkind of Cloak is superior for having some Benefit over other Designs in regards o how to get your Hands free...a thing, that i doubt colour alone would achieve.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: jackfortune
          > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 11:16 AM
          > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Watchoats "of the Hussar Kind" what does it mean?
          >
          >
          >  
          > if you can get access to an Osprey title: Men-at-Arms 413 'Austrian Frontier Troops 1740-1798' you will find plentiful reference to the 'Abba-mantel'- the red cloak of the 'Pandours' or Grenzers.
          >
          > In a separate title: Warrior 81 'Hungarian Hussar 1756-1815' it is explained that Hussars in the 1750's still wore the same cloak as the
          > Grenzers. A modern image used as the cover illustration demonstrates how the edges of the large collar of the cloak could be buttoned together to form a hood.
          >
          > See: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hungarian-Hussar-1756-1815-Warrior-Hollins/dp/1841765244/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361786428&sr=8-1#reader_1841765244
          >
          > As the origin of Cuthbertson's reference to 'Hussar-cloaks', this seems more likely than your friend's proposal regarding arm openings. The necessity to withdraw the arms in order to throw back the cloak would defeat the purpose as described by Cuthbertson as well as rendering a simple practical garment unnecessarily complicated- and more expensive.
          >
          > Good luck with your search for examples but I suspect it will be a red herring. I have seen no examples of such a garment in the Balkan military context.
          >
          > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Bosch wrote:
          > >
          > > Thanks for your Input, Sir.
          > >
          > > I agree with you on the Cape. On the Rest of the Coat, I have been thinking:
          > >
          > >
          > > I have been talking with some People, and have a new "Idea".
          > >
          > > It almost sounds, as if C. thinks of one special Kind of Cloak, and I think i have a clue...
          > > I have recalled (darkly, though) to have seen Overgarments of 16th to 17th C. Origin, that were basically Cloaks, but had Slits or Holes for the Arms. Sometimes just primitive Slits, sometimes covered with crazy Numbers of Buttons and buttonholes, they seem to have been used like normal Cloaks. Only that, if neccessary, a Man could get his Hands/Arms free, by simply sticking them out, through these Openings. Sometimes, a strip of Cloth was sewn to these Slits, to create an Overlap that helps keeping out Rain and Wind.
          > >
          > > In conversing with a Friend, who is more mid-1700s Prussian oriented, he assured me, that he has seen something exactly like that in context with some eastern European Troops, possibly Cavalry.
          > >
          > > So now I am beginning to think, that the "Hussar" Talk is just a reference to generic eastern People and a perceived Origin of Armslits in Cloak with those People.
          > >
          > > A cloak of this Fashion would be quite simple, fitting all People regardless of Size, and dispite beeing Calf-length, would have narrow strips of Cloth Overlapping the Slits, like "small flaps" that are easily thrown back to allow freeing the Hands.
          > >
          > > Also, when the Rain really pi--es down on a Sentry, he can always get his Firelock underneat the cloak as well, to keep it dry.
          > >
          > > The Garment fashioned this Way does, in my Opinion, make perfect Sense with C.'s writings and seems practical.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I would only now want to find out, if any Cloaks with Armslits are known to exist for the 18th C. If so, I am inclined to sew up a Watchcloak just this Way.
          > >
          > >
          > > Alex
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ________________________________
          > > From: jackfortune
          > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 7:28 PM
          > > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Watchoats "of the Hussar Kind" what does it mean?
          > >
          > >
          > >  
          > > Alex, it may be of interest to see how the group here
          > >
          > > http://www.33rdfoot.org/
          > >
          > > interpret the 'watch coat' in relation to description of Cuthbertson's 'Hussar-cloak'.
          > >
          > > JF
          > >
          > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Bosch wrote:
          > > >
          > >
          > > > Page 85
          > > >
          > > > "As every attention should be observed, for making Soldiers comfortable, and able to perform their Duty, without injury to their constitutions, a proper number of * Huzzar-Cloaks ought to be provided, for the use, of [...]the Centries. [...] and have a large falling cape, to cover the cead occasionally [...]"
          > > >
          > > > "* Huzzar-Cloaks are more convenient for Centinels, than any other kind, as by throwing back the short Flaps of them, their hands are quite disengaged to handle their Arms"
          > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Alexander Bosch
          http://www.historicnewengland.org/collections-archives-exhibitions/collections-access/collection-object/capobject?gusn=GUSN-30103&searchterm=None For what it s
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 25, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            http://www.historicnewengland.org/collections-archives-exhibitions/collections-access/collection-object/capobject?gusn=GUSN-30103&searchterm=None

            For what it's worth, I think wether you wear a Cloak or a Cloak with Armholes, the Pouch is still acessible. Not quites as accessible as a Pouch worn over a Watchcoat with sleeves, but still okay.

            As per hemming the Edges of the Slits,...well, if the raw edges of the Regimental Coats did not need Hemming, why would a Cloaks thick Fabric need any elaborate Hemming?

            Regarding Simplicity: If one honestly considers a full Watchcoat as a Possibility, with all those Seams and Sleeves etc., I cant see, why a much more simple Cloak with Slits should suddenly pose an insurmountable Effort in Sewing. (Insert pre-coined Phrase of Work being cheap in those Days)

            With best Regards,

            Alex



            ________________________________
            From: jackfortune <jackfortune@...>
            To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 6:51 PM
            Subject: [Revlist] Re: Watchoats "of the Hussar Kind" what does it mean?


             


            Alex,

            The issue is not the colour. The red colour of the cloaks was simply a distinctive feature of the Austrian 'Grenzers' for the previous generation who knew of them as as the feared 'Pandours' or 'Croats.' The key element for the benefit of Cuthbertson's notional British soldier would be the thick wool and the "large falling cape" that could be buttoned up into a hood "to cover the head occasionally."

            With regard to the arm-slits, each one would require to be hemmed and additional cloth binding to resist wear and tear, so not quite so simple. Apart from the fact that there is no evidence of such a garment that I am aware of, the advantage you assign to such an arrangement seems to be the opposite of what Cuthbertson describes-

            "Huzzar-Cloaks are more convenient for Centinels, than any other kind, as by throwing back the short Flaps of them, their hands are quite disengaged to handle their Arms"

            Would a man with his hands thrust though his cloak fabric be "disengaged"; how, for instance, would he reach his cartouche box?

            The "short flaps" are admittedly confusing and seem to describe something shorter than the calf length cloak of the Grenzers but these anomalies keep us entertained on winters' nights.

            I'll leave Alex to comment on 'watch coats' Good luck with your search.

            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Bosch wrote:
            >
            > Hi.
            >
            > with these Armslits, the garment is hardly complicated... just do a vertical Slash to the Fabric. Remembering that Work was cheap, hastily attaching a narrow strip of Cloth, easily cut from the cloaks leftover Material, should not have been a great cost.
            >
            > And the Idea of these arm slits is, that you can keep your Arms inside a Cloak, but as soon as neccessary, just stretch out your Arm, and it is through the slits an you are free do do whatever you want.
            >
            >
            > If the Red colour is all, that distinguished a Huzzar-Cloak from a boring, normal Cloak, then I wonder why (at least) both Cuthbertson and the 37th referred to a Huzzar Cloak, but wish for it to be blue.
            >
            > That would be like going to a Tailor, specifically ordering a pink Suit, but specifying it to be green. And argumenting on a basis that Pink suits are superior and more practical than others.
            >
            > In reading Cuthbertson, he makes it clear, that the Huzzarkind of Cloak is superior for having some Benefit over other Designs in regards o how to get your Hands free...a thing, that i doubt colour alone would achieve.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: jackfortune
            > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 11:16 AM
            > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Watchoats "of the Hussar Kind" what does it mean?
            >
            >
            >  
            > if you can get access to an Osprey title: Men-at-Arms 413 'Austrian Frontier Troops 1740-1798' you will find plentiful reference to the 'Abba-mantel'- the red cloak of the 'Pandours' or Grenzers.
            >
            > In a separate title: Warrior 81 'Hungarian Hussar 1756-1815' it is explained that Hussars in the 1750's still wore the same cloak as the
            > Grenzers. A modern image used as the cover illustration demonstrates how the edges of the large collar of the cloak could be buttoned together to form a hood.
            >
            > See: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hungarian-Hussar-1756-1815-Warrior-Hollins/dp/1841765244/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361786428&sr=8-1#reader_1841765244
            >
            > As the origin of Cuthbertson's reference to 'Hussar-cloaks', this seems more likely than your friend's proposal regarding arm openings. The necessity to withdraw the arms in order to throw back the cloak would defeat the purpose as described by Cuthbertson as well as rendering a simple practical garment unnecessarily complicated- and more expensive.
            >
            > Good luck with your search for examples but I suspect it will be a red herring. I have seen no examples of such a garment in the Balkan military context.
            >
            > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Bosch wrote:
            > >
            > > Thanks for your Input, Sir.
            > >
            > > I agree with you on the Cape. On the Rest of the Coat, I have been thinking:
            > >
            > >
            > > I have been talking with some People, and have a new "Idea".
            > >
            > > It almost sounds, as if C. thinks of one special Kind of Cloak, and I think i have a clue...
            > > I have recalled (darkly, though) to have seen Overgarments of 16th to 17th C. Origin, that were basically Cloaks, but had Slits or Holes for the Arms. Sometimes just primitive Slits, sometimes covered with crazy Numbers of Buttons and buttonholes, they seem to have been used like normal Cloaks. Only that, if neccessary, a Man could get his Hands/Arms free, by simply sticking them out, through these Openings. Sometimes, a strip of Cloth was sewn to these Slits, to create an Overlap that helps keeping out Rain and Wind.
            > >
            > > In conversing with a Friend, who is more mid-1700s Prussian oriented, he assured me, that he has seen something exactly like that in context with some eastern European Troops, possibly Cavalry.
            > >
            > > So now I am beginning to think, that the "Hussar" Talk is just a reference to generic eastern People and a perceived Origin of Armslits in Cloak with those People.
            > >
            > > A cloak of this Fashion would be quite simple, fitting all People regardless of Size, and dispite beeing Calf-length, would have narrow strips of Cloth Overlapping the Slits, like "small flaps" that are easily thrown back to allow freeing the Hands.
            > >
            > > Also, when the Rain really pi--es down on a Sentry, he can always get his Firelock underneat the cloak as well, to keep it dry.
            > >
            > > The Garment fashioned this Way does, in my Opinion, make perfect Sense with C.'s writings and seems practical.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I would only now want to find out, if any Cloaks with Armslits are known to exist for the 18th C. If so, I am inclined to sew up a Watchcloak just this Way.
            > >
            > >
            > > Alex
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ________________________________
            > > From: jackfortune
            > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 7:28 PM
            > > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Watchoats "of the Hussar Kind" what does it mean?
            > >
            > >
            > >  
            > > Alex, it may be of interest to see how the group here
            > >
            > > http://www.33rdfoot.org/
            > >
            > > interpret the 'watch coat' in relation to description of Cuthbertson's 'Hussar-cloak'.
            > >
            > > JF
            > >
            > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Bosch wrote:
            > > >
            > >
            > > > Page 85
            > > >
            > > > "As every attention should be observed, for making Soldiers comfortable, and able to perform their Duty, without injury to their constitutions, a proper number of * Huzzar-Cloaks ought to be provided, for the use, of [...]the Centries. [...] and have a large falling cape, to cover the cead occasionally [...]"
            > > >
            > > > "* Huzzar-Cloaks are more convenient for Centinels, than any other kind, as by throwing back the short Flaps of them, their hands are quite disengaged to handle their Arms"
            > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
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