Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [Revlist] Pet peeve: Pronounce "victuals" correctly, VERDICT?

Expand Messages
  • Woolsey, David
    So ..., Which pronounciation is VIC-torious? VIC tuals or Vittles? After all, I should like to avoid being nihilarian or inaniloquent, so if we were to
    Message 1 of 23 , Jan 8, 2013
      So ...,



      Which pronounciation is VIC-torious? VIC tuals or Vittles?



      After all, I should like to avoid being nihilarian or inaniloquent, so
      if we were to provide chitterlings or gnocchi to the men as victuals,
      how should we pronounce the word?



      YOHS



      Dave Woolsey



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Revlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Sgt42rhr
      Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 9:04 AM
      To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Revlist] Pet peeve: Pronounce "victuals" correctly, please





      Hi David, I'd be really interested to know more about 18th century
      dictionaries that are online.

      Thank you,
      John

      John M. Johnston
      "P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been
      miscarried; therefore I beg you to write and let me know." - Sir Boyle
      Roche, M.P.

      On Jan 8, 2013, at 4:38 AM, The Hairy Loon
      the.hairy.loon@... <mailto:the.hairy.loon%40virginmedia.com>
      > wrote:
      > Checking this out online with many dictionaries, I can only find one
      that
      > drops the c in pronounciation,

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Folo Watkins
      For any funny book fans out there. I shared Don s rant with friends on Facebook and noted that I was taught the pronunciation in high school. Someone else who
      Message 2 of 23 , Jan 8, 2013
        For any funny book fans out there. I shared Don's rant with friends on Facebook and noted that I was taught the pronunciation in high school. Someone else who knew the pronunciation observed that victual was probably Superman's father's brother... :)


        Cheers, Folo
        (who gets recommendations for history books and comic collections from Amazon)
      • donhagist
        I have yet to find an on-line dictionary (or any source, for that matter) where the WRITTEN pronunciation guide voices the c and the u in victuals. They all
        Message 3 of 23 , Jan 8, 2013
          I have yet to find an on-line dictionary (or any source, for that matter) where the WRITTEN pronunciation guide voices the c and the u in "victuals." They all show something like "vit-lz". If someone has found another, voicing the c and/or v, please point me to it.
          It is strange to me that the dictionary linked below gives different pronunciations in the audio clips than it shows in the written guide - the dictionary contradicts itself. It is, of course, difficult to determine the everyday pronunciation of words that are no longer in everyday use, so it is difficult to know whether this particular dictionary has either the audio or the written rendering wrong, or if alternate pronunciations are accepted.
          As for the comparison to "victory", the point is well taken but it is risky to assume that similar spellings equate to similar pronunciations. Just look at all of the "ough" words in our wonderful language.
          I offer this not to be defensive or contradictory, but to further the discussion.
          Don N. Hagist
          http://revolutionaryimprints.com
          http://redcoat76.blogspot.com

          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, The Hairy Loon wrote:
          >
          > Checking this out online with many dictionaries, I can only find one that
          > drops the c in pronounciation, in fact if you go to
          > http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/victuals there is a
          > voice giving English and American pronounciation.
          > It came from the Latin victualia, into French as vitaille, and English as
          > victuals, so you are probably using the offshoot of the French, after all,
          > they are the reason you drive on the wrong side of the road.
          > Also from the Latin comes victory, and the c is pronounced in that,
          > although harsher than in victuals.
          > David.
          > U.K.
          >
          > > On Jan 7, 2013, at 7:45 PM, "donhagist" wrote:
          > >
          > > > The word is spelled "victuals" but is pronounced "vittles."
          > >
        • Robert Aldridge
          Does the AVERAGE American pronounce anything correctly ??? “The more that you read, the more things you will know. The more that you learn, the more places
          Message 4 of 23 , Jan 8, 2013
            Does the AVERAGE American pronounce anything correctly ???


            “The more that you read, the more things you will know. The more that you learn, the more places you will go."R.C.A.  
            Gulag 41   


            ________________________________
            From: donhagist <dhagist@...>
            To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2013 4:50 PM
            Subject: [Revlist] Re: Pet peeve: Pronounce "victuals" correctly, please


             

            I have yet to find an on-line dictionary (or any source, for that matter) where the WRITTEN pronunciation guide voices the c and the u in "victuals." They all show something like "vit-lz". If someone has found another, voicing the c and/or v, please point me to it.
            It is strange to me that the dictionary linked below gives different pronunciations in the audio clips than it shows in the written guide - the dictionary contradicts itself. It is, of course, difficult to determine the everyday pronunciation of words that are no longer in everyday use, so it is difficult to know whether this particular dictionary has either the audio or the written rendering wrong, or if alternate pronunciations are accepted.
            As for the comparison to "victory", the point is well taken but it is risky to assume that similar spellings equate to similar pronunciations. Just look at all of the "ough" words in our wonderful language.
            I offer this not to be defensive or contradictory, but to further the discussion.
            Don N. Hagist
            http://revolutionaryimprints.com
            http://redcoat76.blogspot.com

            --- In mailto:Revlist%40yahoogroups.com, The Hairy Loon wrote:
            >
            > Checking this out online with many dictionaries, I can only find one that
            > drops the c in pronounciation, in fact if you go to
            > http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/victuals there is a
            > voice giving English and American pronounciation.
            > It came from the Latin victualia, into French as vitaille, and English as
            > victuals, so you are probably using the offshoot of the French, after all,
            > they are the reason you drive on the wrong side of the road.
            > Also from the Latin comes victory, and the c is pronounced in that,
            > although harsher than in victuals.
            > David.
            > U.K.
            >
            > > On Jan 7, 2013, at 7:45 PM, "donhagist" wrote:
            > >
            > > > The word is spelled "victuals" but is pronounced "vittles."
            > >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jackfortune
            Give that man a REE-ward!
            Message 5 of 23 , Jan 9, 2013
              Give that man a REE-ward!


              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Robert Aldridge wrote:
              >
              > Does the AVERAGE American pronounce anything correctly ???
            • roofushudson
              Per an alternative dictionary, vittles is sustained - no pun - via written, audio, as well as a list of rhyming words. Also, there are 15 site user comments
              Message 6 of 23 , Jan 9, 2013
                Per an alternative dictionary, "vittles" is sustained - no pun - via
                written, audio, as well as a list of rhyming words. Also, there are 15 site user
                comments regarding victuals, providing source citations biblical, other
                literary, and even U.S. legal/regulatory -

                _http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victuals_
                (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victuals)


                Cheers,

                Bob McDonald

                _www.RevWar75.com_ (http://www.RevWar75.com)








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • The Hairy Loon
                I went to that site _http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victuals_not a very good example, as they say that there is no such word as victuals, but when
                Message 7 of 23 , Jan 10, 2013
                  I went to that site
                  _http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victuals_not a very good
                  example, as they say that there is no such word as
                  victuals, but when you go to the vittles page, they say that the
                  alternative is victuals, there are many pages out there to support one way
                  or the other.
                  However, in the correct use of the English language, the vowel u is
                  normally soft, as in uniform or universe, this will cause the preceding
                  consonants to become soft, so that vict becomes vich, making the
                  pronouncement as vichuals, which when spoken aloud, sounds very like
                  vittles, as against my previous, joking, example, victory, where the vowel
                  o, normally harsh, leavies the previous two consonants harsh as well, so it
                  becomes vik tory, as against the o in home, or joke, where the o follows
                  one consonant, becoming soft.
                  I would have thought though, that however you pronounced a word depended on
                  whom you were portraying, we have groups that only speak French, German, or
                  even Latin when on site, a bit over the top sometimes.
                  Enough from me, someone who is becoming fed up with the modern lazy misuse
                  of the English language, with words like "prolly" and "diss", whatever that
                  means, creeping into everyday use.
                  David.
                  U.K.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Woolsey, David
                  I checked http://thesaurus.com/ and they have an audio pronounciation option, and victuals is pronounced vittle without the s ; probably should be with
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jan 10, 2013
                    I checked http://thesaurus.com/ and they have an audio pronounciation
                    option, and "victuals" is pronounced "vittle" without the "s"; probably
                    should be with the "s" though. So "sounds" like evidence, ...and pun
                    intended!



                    YOHS



                    Dave Woolsey



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Revlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of The Hairy Loon
                    Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 9:04 AM
                    To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: Pet peeve: Pronounce "victuals" correctly,
                    please





                    I went to that site
                    _http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victuals_not a very good
                    example, as they say that there is no such word as
                    victuals, but when you go to the vittles page, they say that the
                    alternative is victuals, there are many pages out there to support one
                    way
                    or the other.
                    However, in the correct use of the English language, the vowel u is
                    normally soft, as in uniform or universe, this will cause the preceding
                    consonants to become soft, so that vict becomes vich, making the
                    pronouncement as vichuals, which when spoken aloud, sounds very like
                    vittles, as against my previous, joking, example, victory, where the
                    vowel
                    o, normally harsh, leavies the previous two consonants harsh as well, so
                    it
                    becomes vik tory, as against the o in home, or joke, where the o follows
                    one consonant, becoming soft.
                    I would have thought though, that however you pronounced a word depended
                    on
                    whom you were portraying, we have groups that only speak French, German,
                    or
                    even Latin when on site, a bit over the top sometimes.
                    Enough from me, someone who is becoming fed up with the modern lazy
                    misuse
                    of the English language, with words like "prolly" and "diss", whatever
                    that
                    means, creeping into everyday use.
                    David.
                    U.K.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • The Hairy Loon
                    Sounded like viDDles to me. Why not do as we do, ring the triangle, shout Grub up, if you re not here in two minutes, your dinner will be in the dog . David
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jan 10, 2013
                      Sounded like viDDles to me.
                      Why not do as we do, ring the triangle, shout "Grub up, if you're not here
                      in two minutes, your dinner will be in the dog".
                      David

                      On 10 January 2013 15:03, Woolsey, David <
                      David.Woolsey@...> wrote:

                      > I checked http://thesaurus.com/ and they have an audio pronounciation
                      > option, and "victuals" is pronounced "vittle" without the "s"; probably
                      > should be with the "s" though. So "sounds" like evidence, ...and pun
                      > intended!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > YOHS
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Dave Woolsey
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Revlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      > Of The Hairy Loon
                      > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 9:04 AM
                      > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: Pet peeve: Pronounce "victuals" correctly,
                      > please
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I went to that site
                      > _http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victuals_not a very good
                      > example, as they say that there is no such word as
                      > victuals, but when you go to the vittles page, they say that the
                      > alternative is victuals, there are many pages out there to support one
                      > way
                      > or the other.
                      > However, in the correct use of the English language, the vowel u is
                      > normally soft, as in uniform or universe, this will cause the preceding
                      > consonants to become soft, so that vict becomes vich, making the
                      > pronouncement as vichuals, which when spoken aloud, sounds very like
                      > vittles, as against my previous, joking, example, victory, where the
                      > vowel
                      > o, normally harsh, leavies the previous two consonants harsh as well, so
                      > it
                      > becomes vik tory, as against the o in home, or joke, where the o follows
                      > one consonant, becoming soft.
                      > I would have thought though, that however you pronounced a word depended
                      > on
                      > whom you were portraying, we have groups that only speak French, German,
                      > or
                      > even Latin when on site, a bit over the top sometimes.
                      > Enough from me, someone who is becoming fed up with the modern lazy
                      > misuse
                      > of the English language, with words like "prolly" and "diss", whatever
                      > that
                      > means, creeping into everyday use.
                      > David.
                      > U.K.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > To subscribe to Revlist, please go to the home page at
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revlist/ and click "Join This Group!"
                      >
                      > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: please send a message to
                      > Revlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > with "unsubscribe" in the subject line.Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Woolsey, David
                      Nope no S. YOHS Dave Woolsey ... From: Revlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of The Hairy Loon Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jan 10, 2013
                        Nope no S.



                        YOHS



                        Dave Woolsey



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Revlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of The Hairy Loon
                        Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 10:13 AM
                        To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: Pet peeve: Pronounce "victuals" correctly,
                        please





                        Sounded like viDDles to me.
                        Why not do as we do, ring the triangle, shout "Grub up, if you're not
                        here
                        in two minutes, your dinner will be in the dog".
                        David

                        On 10 January 2013 15:03, Woolsey, David <
                        David.Woolsey@...
                        <mailto:David.Woolsey%40montgomerycountymd.gov> > wrote:






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • jbsmith@epix.net
                        Members of the List,    There is another thing that we Americans must remember, we don t  from speak the Queen s English. We speak what is termed Standard
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jan 10, 2013
                          Members of the List,
                             There is another thing that we Americans must remember, we don't  from speak the Queen's English. We speak what is termed Standard American English.  Standard American English is that language that follows those rules found in grammar and compoition handbooks.  This is different Standard British English as our, American, rules for spelling and some grammar rules are different.  So as a result how the English pronounce victuals and how we pronounce it are going to be different.  If you have never seen the movie "Love Actually"  watch it and especially watch the part where the Brit comes to the American bar in Milwaukee.
                              Jeff Smith
                             24th CMR
                          (Speech Communications Teacher for 25 years)

                          --- On Thu, 1/10/13, Woolsey, David <David.Woolsey@...> wrote:

                          From: Woolsey, David <David.Woolsey@...>
                          Subject: RE: [Revlist] Re: Pet peeve: Pronounce "victuals" correctly, please
                          To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Thursday, January 10, 2013, 10:03 AM
















                           









                          I checked http://thesaurus.com/ and they have an audio pronounciation

                          option, and "victuals" is pronounced "vittle" without the "s"; probably

                          should be with the "s" though. So "sounds" like evidence, ...and pun

                          intended!



                          YOHS



                          Dave Woolsey



                          -----Original Message-----

                          From: Revlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

                          Of The Hairy Loon

                          Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 9:04 AM

                          To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com

                          Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: Pet peeve: Pronounce "victuals" correctly,

                          please



                          I went to that site

                          _http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victuals_not a very good

                          example, as they say that there is no such word as

                          victuals, but when you go to the vittles page, they say that the

                          alternative is victuals, there are many pages out there to support one

                          way

                          or the other.

                          However, in the correct use of the English language, the vowel u is

                          normally soft, as in uniform or universe, this will cause the preceding

                          consonants to become soft, so that vict becomes vich, making the

                          pronouncement as vichuals, which when spoken aloud, sounds very like

                          vittles, as against my previous, joking, example, victory, where the

                          vowel

                          o, normally harsh, leavies the previous two consonants harsh as well, so

                          it

                          becomes vik tory, as against the o in home, or joke, where the o follows

                          one consonant, becoming soft.

                          I would have thought though, that however you pronounced a word depended

                          on

                          whom you were portraying, we have groups that only speak French, German,

                          or

                          even Latin when on site, a bit over the top sometimes.

                          Enough from me, someone who is becoming fed up with the modern lazy

                          misuse

                          of the English language, with words like "prolly" and "diss", whatever

                          that

                          means, creeping into everyday use.

                          David.

                          U.K.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • ebolton123
                          William, I d rather folks take the time to get their clothing properly fitted and hand sewn, and our camps cleared of all the anacronisms before we worry
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jan 10, 2013
                            William,
                            I'd rather folks take the time to get their clothing properly fitted and hand sewn, and our camps cleared of all the anacronisms before we worry about how we say "victuals,vittles, huzza, huzzay". Honestly, I don't care how "PHD" some folks get over the intricacies of 18th century life. If they look like slobs in ill fitting, off the rack garments, and are sitting on a cooler covered with a WWII Army blanket, wearing modern glasses, smoking a cigarette... who cares what they have to say?
                            Cheers,
                            Bob Bolton



                            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
                            >
                            > There ought to be a pronunciation guide for 18th-century speech produced for re-enactors and historical impersonators.
                            >
                            > One factor would be the mixture of local accents and the prevalence of foreign-born people in America at the time. That is certainly not reproduced by re-enactors.
                            >
                            > Roman scholar W. Sidney Allen produced the Vox Latina, a pronunciation guide derived partially from wax tablets that belonged to students. Phoenetic misspellings were used to determine how the words were likely pronounced in ancient Rome. It is an impressive research project. Just as in modern France or 18th century America, there were certainly regional variations.
                            >
                            > I did a perfunctory search for "victuals" in poetry but discovedred no passages that indicate its pronunciation, as Don Hagist had used as supporting evidence for the pronuncuation of huzzah.
                            >
                            > Anecdote: the cat food "Tender Vittles" was originally "Tender Victuals" but its mispronunciation was so common they chande the name to its phoenetic form.
                            >
                            > William Myers. independant historian.
                            >
                            > PS: Phoentic spellings in pension applications provide clues: I wondered whether my ancestor Major Daniel Piatt pronounced his name with the traditional French Pee-ott, which happens to be the name of an anti-tank rocket launcher in France, or Pie-ott, or even Pee- at, but pension applications have not entirely settled the question but phoentic spellings suggest the traditional French pronunciation. (The Dutch Vliets, of his mother's side, pronounced the name Fleet.)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "jbsmith@" wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Members of the List,
                            > >    There is another thing that we Americans must remember, we don't  from speak the Queen's English. We speak what is termed Standard American English.  Standard American English is that language that follows those rules found in grammar and compoition handbooks.  This is different Standard British English as our, American, rules for spelling and some grammar rules are different.  So as a result how the English pronounce victuals and how we pronounce it are going to be different.  If you have never seen the movie "Love Actually"  watch it and especially watch the part where the Brit comes to the American bar in Milwaukee.
                            > >     Jeff Smith
                            > >    24th CMR
                            > > (Speech Communications Teacher for 25 years)
                            > >
                            > > --- On Thu, 1/10/13, Woolsey, David wrote:
                            > >
                            > > From: Woolsey, David
                            > > Subject: RE: [Revlist] Re: Pet peeve: Pronounce "victuals" correctly, please
                            > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Date: Thursday, January 10, 2013, 10:03 AM
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >  
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I checked http://thesaurus.com/ and they have an audio pronounciation
                            > >
                            > > option, and "victuals" is pronounced "vittle" without the "s"; probably
                            > >
                            > > should be with the "s" though. So "sounds" like evidence, ...and pun
                            > >
                            > > intended!
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > YOHS
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Dave Woolsey
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > >
                            > > From: Revlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            > >
                            > > Of The Hairy Loon
                            > >
                            > > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 9:04 AM
                            > >
                            > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                            > >
                            > > Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: Pet peeve: Pronounce "victuals" correctly,
                            > >
                            > > please
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I went to that site
                            > >
                            > > _http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victuals_not a very good
                            > >
                            > > example, as they say that there is no such word as
                            > >
                            > > victuals, but when you go to the vittles page, they say that the
                            > >
                            > > alternative is victuals, there are many pages out there to support one
                            > >
                            > > way
                            > >
                            > > or the other.
                            > >
                            > > However, in the correct use of the English language, the vowel u is
                            > >
                            > > normally soft, as in uniform or universe, this will cause the preceding
                            > >
                            > > consonants to become soft, so that vict becomes vich, making the
                            > >
                            > > pronouncement as vichuals, which when spoken aloud, sounds very like
                            > >
                            > > vittles, as against my previous, joking, example, victory, where the
                            > >
                            > > vowel
                            > >
                            > > o, normally harsh, leavies the previous two consonants harsh as well, so
                            > >
                            > > it
                            > >
                            > > becomes vik tory, as against the o in home, or joke, where the o follows
                            > >
                            > > one consonant, becoming soft.
                            > >
                            > > I would have thought though, that however you pronounced a word depended
                            > >
                            > > on
                            > >
                            > > whom you were portraying, we have groups that only speak French, German,
                            > >
                            > > or
                            > >
                            > > even Latin when on site, a bit over the top sometimes.
                            > >
                            > > Enough from me, someone who is becoming fed up with the modern lazy
                            > >
                            > > misuse
                            > >
                            > > of the English language, with words like "prolly" and "diss", whatever
                            > >
                            > > that
                            > >
                            > > means, creeping into everyday use.
                            > >
                            > > David.
                            > >
                            > > U.K.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                          • Jack Reimer
                            LIKE.............. Jack Reimer ________________________________ From: ebolton123 To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 10,
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jan 10, 2013
                              LIKE..............

                              Jack Reimer


                              ________________________________
                              From: ebolton123 <ebolton123@...>
                              To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:15 PM
                              Subject: [Revlist] Re: Pet peeve: Pronounce "victuals" correctly, please


                               
                              William,
                              I'd rather folks take the time to get their clothing properly fitted and hand sewn, and our camps cleared of all the anacronisms before we worry about how we say "victuals,vittles, huzza, huzzay". Honestly, I don't care how "PHD" some folks get over the intricacies of 18th century life. If they look like slobs in ill fitting, off the rack garments, and are sitting on a cooler covered with a WWII Army blanket, wearing modern glasses, smoking a cigarette... who cares what they have to say?
                              Cheers,
                              Bob Bolton

                              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
                              >
                              > There ought to be a pronunciation guide for 18th-century speech produced for re-enactors and historical impersonators.
                              >
                              > One factor would be the mixture of local accents and the prevalence of foreign-born people in America at the time. That is certainly not reproduced by re-enactors.
                              >
                              > Roman scholar W. Sidney Allen produced the Vox Latina, a pronunciation guide derived partially from wax tablets that belonged to students. Phoenetic misspellings were used to determine how the words were likely pronounced in ancient Rome. It is an impressive research project. Just as in modern France or 18th century America, there were certainly regional variations.
                              >
                              > I did a perfunctory search for "victuals" in poetry but discovedred no passages that indicate its pronunciation, as Don Hagist had used as supporting evidence for the pronuncuation of huzzah.
                              >
                              > Anecdote: the cat food "Tender Vittles" was originally "Tender Victuals" but its mispronunciation was so common they chande the name to its phoenetic form.
                              >
                              > William Myers. independant historian.
                              >
                              > PS: Phoentic spellings in pension applications provide clues: I wondered whether my ancestor Major Daniel Piatt pronounced his name with the traditional French Pee-ott, which happens to be the name of an anti-tank rocket launcher in France, or Pie-ott, or even Pee- at, but pension applications have not entirely settled the question but phoentic spellings suggest the traditional French pronunciation. (The Dutch Vliets, of his mother's side, pronounced the name Fleet.)
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "jbsmith@" wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Members of the List,
                              > >    There is another thing that we Americans must remember, we don't  from speak the Queen's English. We speak what is termed Standard American English.  Standard American English is that language that follows those rules found in grammar and compoition handbooks.  This is different Standard British English as our, American, rules for spelling and some grammar rules are different.  So as a result how the English pronounce victuals and how we pronounce it are going to be different.  If you have never seen the movie "Love Actually"  watch it and especially watch the part where the Brit comes to the American bar in Milwaukee.
                              > >     Jeff Smith
                              > >    24th CMR
                              > > (Speech Communications Teacher for 25 years)
                              > >
                              > > --- On Thu, 1/10/13, Woolsey, David wrote:
                              > >
                              > > From: Woolsey, David
                              > > Subject: RE: [Revlist] Re: Pet peeve: Pronounce "victuals" correctly, please
                              > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Date: Thursday, January 10, 2013, 10:03 AM
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >  
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > I checked http://thesaurus.com/ and they have an audio pronounciation
                              > >
                              > > option, and "victuals" is pronounced "vittle" without the "s"; probably
                              > >
                              > > should be with the "s" though. So "sounds" like evidence, ...and pun
                              > >
                              > > intended!
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > YOHS
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Dave Woolsey
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > >
                              > > From: Revlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              > >
                              > > Of The Hairy Loon
                              > >
                              > > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 9:04 AM
                              > >
                              > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > > Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: Pet peeve: Pronounce "victuals" correctly,
                              > >
                              > > please
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > I went to that site
                              > >
                              > > _http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victuals_not a very good
                              > >
                              > > example, as they say that there is no such word as
                              > >
                              > > victuals, but when you go to the vittles page, they say that the
                              > >
                              > > alternative is victuals, there are many pages out there to support one
                              > >
                              > > way
                              > >
                              > > or the other.
                              > >
                              > > However, in the correct use of the English language, the vowel u is
                              > >
                              > > normally soft, as in uniform or universe, this will cause the preceding
                              > >
                              > > consonants to become soft, so that vict becomes vich, making the
                              > >
                              > > pronouncement as vichuals, which when spoken aloud, sounds very like
                              > >
                              > > vittles, as against my previous, joking, example, victory, where the
                              > >
                              > > vowel
                              > >
                              > > o, normally harsh, leavies the previous two consonants harsh as well, so
                              > >
                              > > it
                              > >
                              > > becomes vik tory, as against the o in home, or joke, where the o follows
                              > >
                              > > one consonant, becoming soft.
                              > >
                              > > I would have thought though, that however you pronounced a word depended
                              > >
                              > > on
                              > >
                              > > whom you were portraying, we have groups that only speak French, German,
                              > >
                              > > or
                              > >
                              > > even Latin when on site, a bit over the top sometimes.
                              > >
                              > > Enough from me, someone who is becoming fed up with the modern lazy
                              > >
                              > > misuse
                              > >
                              > > of the English language, with words like "prolly" and "diss", whatever
                              > >
                              > > that
                              > >
                              > > means, creeping into everyday use.
                              > >
                              > > David.
                              > >
                              > > U.K.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • The Hairy Loon
                              I have carried on in this discussion as I feel that the hobby can get a bit anal, we are now in 2013, if any of you can tell me how a sod buster of German
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jan 10, 2013
                                I have carried on in this discussion as I feel that the hobby can get a bit
                                anal, we are now in 2013, if any of you can tell me how a sod buster of
                                German descent, in mid Arizona circa 1750 would say any word, then you are
                                much older than you look.
                                We have a group over here, The Ermin Street Guard, (Roman Legion about
                                50AD) that insist on speaking Latin, all orders, all mess drill etc etc.
                                To hear them marching along the road to the chant of Sinister, Sinister,
                                Sinister, Dexter Sinister, is a wonder to us all, especially those of us
                                still doing straw foot, hay foot, in 1812, and being issued with boots,
                                feet, for the use off.
                                Mixing periods, we used to have one member in our Tudor group that spoke
                                perfect Shakespearean English, you could not see the public for dust.
                                As Bob Bolton says, wear the correct kit, portray the living, fighting and
                                weaponry, but please do not try to be too pedantic with the speech of the
                                time.
                                No more from me on the subject.
                                David. U.K.
                                P.S. Hint.
                                Left, Left, Left, Right Left.
                                We did keep asking them for the order to break step when they approached a
                                stone bridge, but we were ignored.
                                P.P.S.
                                Still no comment about the wrong side of the road?



                                On 10 January 2013 22:15, ebolton123 <ebolton123@...> wrote:

                                > William,
                                > I'd rather folks take the time to get their clothing properly fitted and
                                > hand sewn, and our camps cleared of all the anacronisms before we worry
                                > about how we say "victuals,vittles, huzza, huzzay". Honestly, I don't care
                                > how "PHD" some folks get over the intricacies of 18th century life. If
                                > they look like slobs in ill fitting, off the rack garments, and are sitting
                                > on a cooler covered with a WWII Army blanket, wearing modern glasses,
                                > smoking a cigarette... who cares what they have to say?
                                > Cheers,
                                > Bob Bolton
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • mbkatzhyman
                                For those who wish to practice their 18th-century English, Cathleene Hellier, an historian with Colonial Williamsburg, wrote Eighteenth-century English as a
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jan 11, 2013
                                  For those who wish to practice their 18th-century English, Cathleene Hellier, an historian with Colonial Williamsburg, wrote "Eighteenth-century English as a second language : a workbook and series of instructional CDs", which I believe can be purchased through Colonial Williamsburg.

                                  One of Cathy's specialties is 18th-century language, and this is a project she'd been working on for many years. You might also want to read "The King's English: Eighteenth-Century Language," which was written for teachers and can be found on the CW website, here:
                                  http://www.history.org/history/teaching/enewsletter/june03/english.cfm.

                                  Hope this is useful.

                                  Martha Katz-Hyman
                                • ebolton123
                                  David, Thanks for the support. Yea, having been involved in the hobby for 30 years in many time periods, I have always found folks trying to talk the talk
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jan 14, 2013
                                    David,
                                    Thanks for the support. Yea, having been involved in the hobby for 30 years in many time periods, I have always found folks trying to "talk the talk" more comical than historically educational.
                                    Time periods from say WWII to the present, it's obviously easy to toss in an ocasional period slang word or phrase like,"hey Joe, wattaya know", or "get the skinny on the situation" to give a couple common WWII American phrases. But anything pre-WWI, or before the first recorded voice, it starts to get real tough to really know "how they talked". I personally doubt that the so called "experts" REALLY know, beyond a better than average educated guess(?).
                                    Cheers,
                                    Bob Bolton


                                    --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, The Hairy Loon wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I have carried on in this discussion as I feel that the hobby can get a bit
                                    > anal, we are now in 2013, if any of you can tell me how a sod buster of
                                    > German descent, in mid Arizona circa 1750 would say any word, then you are
                                    > much older than you look.
                                    > We have a group over here, The Ermin Street Guard, (Roman Legion about
                                    > 50AD) that insist on speaking Latin, all orders, all mess drill etc etc.
                                    > To hear them marching along the road to the chant of Sinister, Sinister,
                                    > Sinister, Dexter Sinister, is a wonder to us all, especially those of us
                                    > still doing straw foot, hay foot, in 1812, and being issued with boots,
                                    > feet, for the use off.
                                    > Mixing periods, we used to have one member in our Tudor group that spoke
                                    > perfect Shakespearean English, you could not see the public for dust.
                                    > As Bob Bolton says, wear the correct kit, portray the living, fighting and
                                    > weaponry, but please do not try to be too pedantic with the speech of the
                                    > time.
                                    > No more from me on the subject.
                                    > David. U.K.
                                    > P.S. Hint.
                                    > Left, Left, Left, Right Left.
                                    > We did keep asking them for the order to break step when they approached a
                                    > stone bridge, but we were ignored.
                                    > P.P.S.
                                    > Still no comment about the wrong side of the road?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On 10 January 2013 22:15, ebolton123 wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > William,
                                    > > I'd rather folks take the time to get their clothing properly fitted and
                                    > > hand sewn, and our camps cleared of all the anacronisms before we worry
                                    > > about how we say "victuals,vittles, huzza, huzzay". Honestly, I don't care
                                    > > how "PHD" some folks get over the intricacies of 18th century life. If
                                    > > they look like slobs in ill fitting, off the rack garments, and are sitting
                                    > > on a cooler covered with a WWII Army blanket, wearing modern glasses,
                                    > > smoking a cigarette... who cares what they have to say?
                                    > > Cheers,
                                    > > Bob Bolton
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • ebolton123
                                    William, So sorry...just having a conversation here. Thought that was what the list was for. If your bothered by the length of a given conversation...ignore
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jan 15, 2013
                                      William,
                                      So sorry...just having a conversation here. Thought that was what the list was for. If your bothered by the length of a given conversation...ignore it? Hmmm...where did I just hear that? ;)
                                      Cheers,
                                      Bob Bolton





                                      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Mr. Bolton et al.,
                                      >
                                      > Aren't yopu guys really beating a dead horse? Enough already, reenactors don't want to be bothered. Point taken.
                                      >
                                      > Enough people have expressed a sufficient interest in the vernacular to produce the aforementioned King's Speech CD, which is what "I" was looking for.
                                      >
                                      > If you don;t like it, ignore it... or as our friend Mr. Martin so eloquently expresses it:
                                      >
                                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zANvYB93u2g
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ~ William Myers, independant historian.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > David,
                                      > > Thanks for the support. Yea, having been involved in the hobby for 30 years in many time periods, I have always found folks trying to "talk the talk" more comical than historically educational.
                                      > > Time periods from say WWII to the present, it's obviously easy to toss in an ocasional period slang word or phrase like,"hey Joe, wattaya know", or "get the skinny on the situation" to give a couple common WWII American phrases. But anything pre-WWI, or before the first recorded voice, it starts to get real tough to really know "how they talked". I personally doubt that the so called "experts" REALLY know, beyond a better than average educated guess(?).
                                      > > Cheers,
                                      > > Bob Bolton
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, The Hairy Loon wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I have carried on in this discussion as I feel that the hobby can get a bit
                                      > > > anal, we are now in 2013, if any of you can tell me how a sod buster of
                                      > > > German descent, in mid Arizona circa 1750 would say any word, then you are
                                      > > > much older than you look.
                                      > > > We have a group over here, The Ermin Street Guard, (Roman Legion about
                                      > > > 50AD) that insist on speaking Latin, all orders, all mess drill etc etc.
                                      > > > To hear them marching along the road to the chant of Sinister, Sinister,
                                      > > > Sinister, Dexter Sinister, is a wonder to us all, especially those of us
                                      > > > still doing straw foot, hay foot, in 1812, and being issued with boots,
                                      > > > feet, for the use off.
                                      > > > Mixing periods, we used to have one member in our Tudor group that spoke
                                      > > > perfect Shakespearean English, you could not see the public for dust.
                                      > > > As Bob Bolton says, wear the correct kit, portray the living, fighting and
                                      > > > weaponry, but please do not try to be too pedantic with the speech of the
                                      > > > time.
                                      > > > No more from me on the subject.
                                      > > > David. U.K.
                                      > > > P.S. Hint.
                                      > > > Left, Left, Left, Right Left.
                                      > > > We did keep asking them for the order to break step when they approached a
                                      > > > stone bridge, but we were ignored.
                                      > > > P.P.S.
                                      > > > Still no comment about the wrong side of the road?
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > On 10 January 2013 22:15, ebolton123 wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > William,
                                      > > > > I'd rather folks take the time to get their clothing properly fitted and
                                      > > > > hand sewn, and our camps cleared of all the anacronisms before we worry
                                      > > > > about how we say "victuals,vittles, huzza, huzzay". Honestly, I don't care
                                      > > > > how "PHD" some folks get over the intricacies of 18th century life. If
                                      > > > > they look like slobs in ill fitting, off the rack garments, and are sitting
                                      > > > > on a cooler covered with a WWII Army blanket, wearing modern glasses,
                                      > > > > smoking a cigarette... who cares what they have to say?
                                      > > > > Cheers,
                                      > > > > Bob Bolton
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.