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Re: Narrow Defile - Battle of Brandywine

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  • kevin donaghy
    Dear Mr. Davis, This is another great point. I mean, I can review the Steuben text, which comes after Brandywine in application, and again later in print of
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 1, 2012
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      Dear Mr. Davis,

      This is another great point. I mean, I can review the Steuben text, which comes after Brandywine in application, and again later in print of course. but to see a battalion wheel by company, or a company by platoon would be very important for me.

      Thank you for your post,

      Sincerely,

      kev




      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Larry Davis <rld5253@...> wrote:
      >
      > On the other hand Bob, we can demonstrate wheels, changing formations from line into column etc. so they can be more clearly understood. Even seemingly mundane things like trying to attack up a hill on wet grass in leather soled shoes can be enlightening... I was in a movie shoot once where the director kept calling for repeated takes because several people always slipped and fell during a charge scene. Taken together, there is a vast amount of knowledge about the period within the hobby because of all our individual interests.  There are practical aspects of 18th century soldier's lives that we exhibit that are educational, even if we don't always get it right, or totally recreate... (Ok guys, who wants to re-enact dysentary this weekend?)
      >  
      > Larry Davis
      >
      >
      > >________________________________
      > >From: ebolton123 <ebolton123@...>
      > >To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
      > >Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 5:33 PM
      > >Subject: [Revlist] Re: Narrow Defile - Battle of Brandywine
      > >
      > >
      > > 
      > >Kevin,
      > >Watching a true craftsman like a flintknapper, or saddlemaker, or tinsmith can be very enlightening and educational in a field of study. It's very specific. But, I don't know how much you're going to learn by watching reenactors as a group? Honestly, most of what is done is highly adapted for the 21st century comfort level, only sporadically military, and way too hygenic. I could go into a whole lot of examples of things (I am guilty too at times) that are wrong or innacurate, but would probably be kicked off the list...so I'll just leave it at that.
      > >Truely, in an era that only offers the written word ( eg. no photos, no film, etc.), reading is your best avenue of getting to know these folks and what they went through. Read first person, and primary accounts and do your best to try to visualize what they're telling us.
      > >Cheers,
      > >Bob Bolton
      > >Pa. Associators
      > >
      > >--- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "kevin donaghy" <kevinmd@> wrote:
      > >>
      > >> Dear Mr. Bolton,
      > >>
      > >> Thank you for your note., this is a discussion point, and i sincerly apologize for my candor. In a nutshell, In the coming weeks i will be looking for metal detectorists to assist with my fieldwork. One concern is always that folks are out pulling things out of the ground. The reality, in one respect is that the musket ball or shoe buckle is valuable in the find location and plotting in GIS and mapping. Artifact-wise, they are in most cases well represented in museum collections, but there are those rare finds. There are parts of the Battlefield that have been extensively detected over the decades. and we won't know what has been lost, but that is another story. The battlefield items attributed to Brandywine on Ebay cause dismay. and likely probably most are fakes, but certainly not all.
      > >>
      > >> What made it topical for me is that there are several list serves that i subscribe to, So i am on the Rev List since i am very interested in studying ethnographically the reenacting community. and hoping to learn from reenactment groups about the life of a soldier. Now this may sound a bit of a stretch, but if we study Native American flint knapping techniques by watching and doing flint knapping, then my hope is to learn about the 18th century soldier by watching. So, for instance what are the three things that wear out the most and need constant replacement, and what is the one thing you carry but never use., The idea is to build a knowledge base of use/wear analysis, etc., . At Monmouth last year, i focussed on the camp cooking and ways that this would perhaps present itself if seen in the archaeological record., So not only watching the process of construction, but the way it was backfilled when the event was over. etc.
      > >>
      > >> On other list serves there is now a debate about the amount of information academic and professional archaeologists share on those list serves since we could have treasure hunters on a list serve that were not caught in the screening process. To write about your site, maybe looking for a geo-reference point or coordinate to confirm placement on an historical map is helpful - since there are some folks who know more about certain areas than has been found published, and to come back after the weekend to find that you've had company is pretty discouraging.
      > >>
      > >> So, in following Ralph's, keen notes, I was following his thread and knowing what he was looking for. and like i said this other list serve is having a lively debate on other aspects, such as protection of site, and the fear of introducing an unknown site to some who would go and dig for artifacts. and I respect private property and as such if someone wants to check their yard or farm for artifacts there are no protections, although this would change if certain classes of artifacts turn up. Then it becomes a matter of contacting the court - such as a grave, Native American or otherwise. In which case call me, i'll map your work, measure and phot the artifacts and you can keep them. Their value, is the knowledge of the precise locations and type, not the object themselves.
      > >>
      > >> So I apologize for not candy coating anything commenting to Ralph. It's not meant to be ad hominen, I basically wanted to get straight to the point and in retrospect should have been kinder, but i would deem my comments again as simple being direct, I don't know if he's had a chance to respond so hoping he'll reply as well.
      > >>
      > >> and, on the another note, i will need metal detector operators to volunteer in March-June and don't want to alienate the metal detecting community- they are an important part of any battlefield study. The metal detecting community will have an opportunity to participate in a large scale survey at Brandywine i would say to think of it as a catch and release type of program. All artifacts will be mapped, processed, catalogued, and inventoried. The finder of course becomes part of the final report, and picture taking and recognition certainly follows success - It's a great way to work together and hopefully form a long term Brandywine Group. My research for my degree is one stage, but i will be teaching and researching battlefield archaeology for I hope, a long long time, I am dedicated to protecting the battlefield, and am grateful to the people who have worked hard for those areas that are preserved and protected. So,that's my deal, my apologies, and
      > hoping to become introduced to the community, and to come to events and learn more about reeanacting and the material culture of the reenactor.
      > >>
      > >> Sincerely,
      > >>
      > >> kmdonaghy
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@> wrote:
      > >> >
      > >> > Kevin,
      > >> > Ouch, man! That was a bit pointy (?). Perhaps the guy just has a passion for a particular battle, or is reading on it and needs help visualizing the terrain?
      > >> > BTW, should not PHD be capitalized? We won't worry about the other mistakes being an archaeology and not an English student. ;)
      > >> > Also, with most of the main battlefield still in various private hands...if he was a "detectorists"(?), and obtained permission from the land owners...I say have at it! Sure as #@*^ if I lived on the Brandywine battlefield I'd be out with a detector.
      > >> > Cheers,
      > >> > Bob Bolton
      > >> > Pa. Associators
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "kevin donaghy" <kevinmd@> wrote:
      > >> > >
      > >> > > Dear Ralph,
      > >> > >
      > >> > > Please forgive me if i am too forward. but if i may be so bold, Why are you so intereted in specifics on the Brandywine Battlefield. I am a phd student, archaeology, and my graduate research is centered on Brandywine. I also, went to check your profile and you are either listed as private or something, i don't want to pretend to know hao Yahoo groups works. but i can't see who you are on the list serve - But my question is - Are you a metal detectorists? meaning are you motivated to go treasure hunting?
      > >> > >
      > >> > > Sinceely,
      > >> > >
      > >> > > kmdonaghy,
      > >> > > graduate student, Teaching Assistant - Temple University,
      > >> > > Adjunct Faculty - Widener University, Drexel University,
      > >> > >
      > >> > >
      > >> > >
      > >> > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ralphjh" <rh00@> wrote:
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > > From the Life of General Greene, by Charles Caldwell:
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > > Regarding Greene's hurried movement to support Sullivan:
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > > "Arriving, at length, at a narrow defile, strongly secured, on its right and left, by thick and heavy woods, he immediately halted, sent forward his cannon, ..."
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > > Exactly where is this narrow defile reported by many sources on the Battle of Brandywine? Some sources place it in or near Sandy Hollow but do not give a specific location. Is it actually "in" Sandy Hollow, or it is on the road, or somewhere else? Actual coordinates, if known, would be helpful.
      > >> > > >
      > >> > > > Ralph
      > >> > > >
      > >> > >
      > >> >
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • ebolton123
      Ralph, To be honest, I have lived near the battlefield for 20 years and I ve never heard of Skirmish Hill . Perhaps it is a double usage and some folks may
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 2, 2012
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        Ralph,
        To be honest, I have lived near the battlefield for 20 years and I've never heard of "Skirmish Hill". Perhaps it is a double usage and some folks may mean the same hill as Battle Hill.
        Cheers,
        Bob Bolton
        Pa. Associators

        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ralphjh" <rh00@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Bob,
        > When I was there in 2010, there were 2 cannons, one pointing toward Sandy Hollow and another at Wylie Road pointing north, in the direction of the approaching British.
        > The Wylie Road cannon is the one that I meant.
        >
        > In the north end of the "Ploughed Field" there is a hill, close to Meetinghouse Road, about 500 yards southwest of the Friends Meeting House. Is that "Skirmish Hill?"
        >
        > Ralph
        >
        > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Ralph,
        > > Yes, that is "Battle Hill". "Ploughed Field" is directly in front and sloping down and away from said hill. The Cannon is pointing in the direction of "Sandy Hollow".
        > > Cheers,
        > > Bob Bolton
        > > Pa. Associators
        > >
        > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ralphjh" <rh00@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Bob,
        > > >
        > > > Thanks for the info. In my reading on the subject of Brandywine, When giving names of locations, no author seems to actually state specifically where these places are, at least to my satisfaction. So my next question might be, "Where is Battle Hill?"
        > > >
        > > > From the context of your earlier reply to my message 134629 I assume that "Battle Hill" is the high ground immediately southeast of the intersection of Wylie & Birmingham Roads. And the "Ploughed Field" must be the the field that the cannon on Wylie Road is pointing to. And, would not the north end of that same field contain "Skirmish Hill?"
        > > >
        > > > Ralph
        > > >
        > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Ralph,
        > > > > When standing at the foot of Battle Hill, just behind the Ploughed Field there is a very narrow and deep cut. Think Antietam sunken road times 10.
        > > > > I always got the feeling this had to be that defile.
        > > > > Cheers,
        > > > > Bob Bolton
        > > > > Pa. Associators
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ralphjh" <rh00@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > From the Life of General Greene, by Charles Caldwell:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Regarding Greene's hurried movement to support Sullivan:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > "Arriving, at length, at a narrow defile, strongly secured, on its right and left, by thick and heavy woods, he immediately halted, sent forward his cannon, ..."
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Exactly where is this narrow defile reported by many sources on the Battle of Brandywine? Some sources place it in or near Sandy Hollow but do not give a specific location. Is it actually "in" Sandy Hollow, or it is on the road, or somewhere else? Actual coordinates, if known, would be helpful.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Ralph
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • ralphjh
        Bob, I have seen the term Skirmish Hill used more than once. One such source is the Straight-Ahead Driving Tour of the Brandywine Battlefield Region as
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 2, 2012
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          Bob,
          I have seen the term "Skirmish Hill" used more than once. One such source is the Straight-Ahead Driving Tour of the Brandywine Battlefield Region as described on this web site:
          http://www.ushistory.org/brandywine/drivingtour/car3.htm

          At the 1.3 mile mark, inside of the Birmingham Friends cemetery, are these words: "Take a moment to continue looking across the street and down the ridge on your right. The ridge, known as Skirmish Hill, or the Plowed Field, is where the main American line formed,..."

          Ralph


          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@...> wrote:
          >
          > Ralph,
          > To be honest, I have lived near the battlefield for 20 years and I've never heard of "Skirmish Hill". Perhaps it is a double usage and some folks may mean the same hill as Battle Hill.
          > Cheers,
          > Bob Bolton
          > Pa. Associators
          >
          > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ralphjh" <rh00@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Bob,
          > > When I was there in 2010, there were 2 cannons, one pointing toward Sandy Hollow and another at Wylie Road pointing north, in the direction of the approaching British.
          > > The Wylie Road cannon is the one that I meant.
          > >
          > > In the north end of the "Ploughed Field" there is a hill, close to Meetinghouse Road, about 500 yards southwest of the Friends Meeting House. Is that "Skirmish Hill?"
          > >
          > > Ralph
          > >
          > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Ralph,
          > > > Yes, that is "Battle Hill". "Ploughed Field" is directly in front and sloping down and away from said hill. The Cannon is pointing in the direction of "Sandy Hollow".
          > > > Cheers,
          > > > Bob Bolton
          > > > Pa. Associators
          > > >
          > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ralphjh" <rh00@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Bob,
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks for the info. In my reading on the subject of Brandywine, When giving names of locations, no author seems to actually state specifically where these places are, at least to my satisfaction. So my next question might be, "Where is Battle Hill?"
          > > > >
          > > > > From the context of your earlier reply to my message 134629 I assume that "Battle Hill" is the high ground immediately southeast of the intersection of Wylie & Birmingham Roads. And the "Ploughed Field" must be the the field that the cannon on Wylie Road is pointing to. And, would not the north end of that same field contain "Skirmish Hill?"
          > > > >
          > > > > Ralph
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Ralph,
          > > > > > When standing at the foot of Battle Hill, just behind the Ploughed Field there is a very narrow and deep cut. Think Antietam sunken road times 10.
          > > > > > I always got the feeling this had to be that defile.
          > > > > > Cheers,
          > > > > > Bob Bolton
          > > > > > Pa. Associators
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ralphjh" <rh00@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > From the Life of General Greene, by Charles Caldwell:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Regarding Greene's hurried movement to support Sullivan:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > "Arriving, at length, at a narrow defile, strongly secured, on its right and left, by thick and heavy woods, he immediately halted, sent forward his cannon, ..."
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Exactly where is this narrow defile reported by many sources on the Battle of Brandywine? Some sources place it in or near Sandy Hollow but do not give a specific location. Is it actually "in" Sandy Hollow, or it is on the road, or somewhere else? Actual coordinates, if known, would be helpful.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Ralph
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • ebolton123
          Ralph, Yea, duh...I had a major brain fart there. I was (in my mind) thinking that the elevation known as Battle Hill was being called S kirmish Hill . I
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 3, 2012
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            Ralph,
            Yea, duh...I had a major brain fart there. I was (in my mind) thinking that the elevation known as Battle Hill was being called "S kirmish Hill". I have indeed heard of it in what your describing.

            Imagine this. Maybe this will help? And this is very general.
            Your a British soldier. You move out from Osbourne's Hill ( the kick off point of the assault). You march downhill for several hundred yards to Street Rd. at the saddle of the two elevations (Osbourne's and Birmingham).
            After getting orders, dressing ranks (dodging artillery), you commence marching another few hundred yards uphill and have it out with the Rebels.
            As the rebels fall back, you pursue (fighting)on another downgrade...Sandy Hollow is to your front and left and Ploughed field (Skirmish Hill) is on your right. Birmingham Rd. is running in front of you.
            You advance (fighting) up hill again. This is "Ploughed Field" and/or "Skirmish Hill" ( it may have the "Hill" name as it is a fairly defined slope, not a flat field as one would imagine). You meet the Rebels in a series of back and forth assaults. The Rebels fall back again down and back up the steep embankments that form that defile we discussed, and up the steep slope of " Battle Hill". You (again) pursue (again fighting) up that steep slope and again back and forth with charges and this time it's muzzle to muzzle.
            The Rebels do what? Yep, fall back again towards Dillworthtown covered by Artillery that slows the British pursuit (though they are at this point exhausted from their flank march, series of assaults and playing chase the rabbit with the Americans).
            A decent little house to house action ensues through Dillworthtown and the Americans...you guessed it...fall back to the final defense point at the road that is now Rt 202. (I hope I got that right...I'm horrible with Route numbers).
            The Americans retreat very orderly to Chester some 20 miles away. The British halt, but in honesty cannot go another step. One thing that I always thinks gets overlooked here is just what those Brits did. The ground they covered, a lot while being engaged, is just mind blowing!
            This the action, give or take, in that little corridor of the battlefield. Much more was going on in other area's.
            Cheers,
            Bob Bolton
            Pa. Associators

            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ralphjh" <rh00@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Bob,
            > I have seen the term "Skirmish Hill" used more than once. One such source is the Straight-Ahead Driving Tour of the Brandywine Battlefield Region as described on this web site:
            > http://www.ushistory.org/brandywine/drivingtour/car3.htm
            >
            > At the 1.3 mile mark, inside of the Birmingham Friends cemetery, are these words: "Take a moment to continue looking across the street and down the ridge on your right. The ridge, known as Skirmish Hill, or the Plowed Field, is where the main American line formed,..."
            >
            > Ralph
            >
            >
            > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Ralph,
            > > To be honest, I have lived near the battlefield for 20 years and I've never heard of "Skirmish Hill". Perhaps it is a double usage and some folks may mean the same hill as Battle Hill.
            > > Cheers,
            > > Bob Bolton
            > > Pa. Associators
            > >
            > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ralphjh" <rh00@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Bob,
            > > > When I was there in 2010, there were 2 cannons, one pointing toward Sandy Hollow and another at Wylie Road pointing north, in the direction of the approaching British.
            > > > The Wylie Road cannon is the one that I meant.
            > > >
            > > > In the north end of the "Ploughed Field" there is a hill, close to Meetinghouse Road, about 500 yards southwest of the Friends Meeting House. Is that "Skirmish Hill?"
            > > >
            > > > Ralph
            > > >
            > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Ralph,
            > > > > Yes, that is "Battle Hill". "Ploughed Field" is directly in front and sloping down and away from said hill. The Cannon is pointing in the direction of "Sandy Hollow".
            > > > > Cheers,
            > > > > Bob Bolton
            > > > > Pa. Associators
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ralphjh" <rh00@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Bob,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Thanks for the info. In my reading on the subject of Brandywine, When giving names of locations, no author seems to actually state specifically where these places are, at least to my satisfaction. So my next question might be, "Where is Battle Hill?"
            > > > > >
            > > > > > From the context of your earlier reply to my message 134629 I assume that "Battle Hill" is the high ground immediately southeast of the intersection of Wylie & Birmingham Roads. And the "Ploughed Field" must be the the field that the cannon on Wylie Road is pointing to. And, would not the north end of that same field contain "Skirmish Hill?"
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Ralph
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@> wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Ralph,
            > > > > > > When standing at the foot of Battle Hill, just behind the Ploughed Field there is a very narrow and deep cut. Think Antietam sunken road times 10.
            > > > > > > I always got the feeling this had to be that defile.
            > > > > > > Cheers,
            > > > > > > Bob Bolton
            > > > > > > Pa. Associators
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ralphjh" <rh00@> wrote:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > From the Life of General Greene, by Charles Caldwell:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Regarding Greene's hurried movement to support Sullivan:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > "Arriving, at length, at a narrow defile, strongly secured, on its right and left, by thick and heavy woods, he immediately halted, sent forward his cannon, ..."
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Exactly where is this narrow defile reported by many sources on the Battle of Brandywine? Some sources place it in or near Sandy Hollow but do not give a specific location. Is it actually "in" Sandy Hollow, or it is on the road, or somewhere else? Actual coordinates, if known, would be helpful.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Ralph
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
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