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Re: Continental Army cartridge supply

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  • jseymour2321
    Sure John, See Erna Risch, Supplying Washington s Army, Robert K. Wright Continental Army, and the published Pennsylvania Archives. Some years ago, Bruce
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 1, 2012
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      Sure John,

      See Erna Risch, Supplying Washington's Army, Robert K. Wright Continental Army, and the published Pennsylvania Archives. Some years ago, Bruce Bazelon wrote an article in Man at Arms (I think) on the Pennsylvania Committee of Safety musket that is in the state collection. In it he summarizes a lot of the information on the size books. If you care to contact me offline, I will be happy to discuss this in more depth.

      Best,

      Joe

      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John" <ju_rees@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Joe,
      >
      > Intrigueing information, can you direct me to the resources where I can find this material?
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > John
      >
      > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "jseymour2321" <jaseymour@> wrote:
      > >
      > > John,
      > >
      > > I've often wondered about this myself. In May 1776, the Pennsylvania Committee of Safety standardized about a half dozen cartridge sizes among the arms issued to Pennsylvania troops. Battalion adjutants were to keep size books recording the respective calibers of the weapons in their units-- cartridges were marked and issued according to the several bore sizes. At about that time, Congress authorized buck and ball as the standard load. After 1778, brigades and Army depots maintained a 20,000 cartridge reserve, at which point, this practice either continued, or the issuance of buck and ball mitigated the problem. At any rate, the presence of disparate bore sizes does not appear to have been a problem, since Pennsylvania issued cartridges to its militia troops in the autumn of 1777, and at least one Pennsylvania regiment carried an assortment of weapons in an assortment of calibers as late as 1780.
      > >
      > > I hope this helps.
      > >
      > > Respectfully,
      > >
      > > Joe Seymour
      > > Baltimore
      > >
      > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "gregsandor" <gregsandor@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > John, I don't have anything on 1778, but here are a few earlier references from the ORDERLY BOOK OF THE COMPANY OF Captain George Stubblefield FIFTH VIRGINIA REGIMENT, FROM MARCH 3, 1776, TO JULY 10, 1776, INCLUSIVE.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > SUFFOLK, May 24th, 1776.
      > > >
      > > > G. O. Parole-Harmony.
      > > >
      > > > Officer for the Day To-morrow, Capt. Anderson.
      > > >
      > > > The Qfr-Masters of the Different Regfts are Requestfd immediately to take two men from Each Compfy out of their Respective Regfts, and employ them in Making Cartridges. The Qfr-Masters will see that they are well made, and of Different Sizes. No Soldier hereafter will attempt to walk the Streets after the Tattoo Beating. The Guard at the Court House to be increased, and a Subfn.
      > > >
      > > > R. O. Officers for Guard To-morrow, Lt. Colston, Lt. Anderson
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > NORFOLK, June 12th, 1776.
      > > >
      > > > G. O. Parole-Mugford.
      > > >
      > > > Officer for the Day To-morrow, Capt. Pleasants. A Court Martial to sit To-day at Capt. Andersonfs House at 10 ofClock, for the Trial of the Drum Major, Prisoner in the Guard House.
      > > >
      > > > Capt. Gaskins, President.
      > > >
      > > > Lt. Colston, Lt. Anderson,
      > > >
      > > > Lt. Ashton, Ensign Duval.
      > > >
      > > > A. O.
      > > >
      > > > The Qfr-Master is immediately to Divide what Cartridges he has among the Different Companies, and also to Issue 1/4 lb. Powder, and Lead Equivalent thereto, to the Rifle Men; the Cartridges to be suited to the Boars of the Guns. The Commanders of Companies to see that their arms are in the Best order. The long Roll to beat at 1 ofClock, and the Companies to Parade, as there is a Report of an Enemy in the Bay. It is expected the officers and Soldiers will hold them Selves in Readiness to act in Conjunction with the Troops at Portsmouth to oppose their Landing.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > NORFOLK, June 13th, 1776.
      > > >
      > > > Parole-Hampton.
      > > >
      > > > Officer of the Day To-morrow, Capt. Anderson.
      > > >
      > > > The Commanders of Compfys are Earnestly Desirious to See that they be Drillfd Every Day, and it is too obvious that they make an indifferent Figure upon the Genfl Parade. It is hoped all the Care and Pain will be Taken in Futer to Render the Regft Respectable. The Qfr-Master is to Take as many men from Each Compfy as it may Want to Expedite the making Cartridges. The Long Roll to Beat at 4 ofClock this Evening, which will in Future be the Establishfd Time for a Genfl Parade.
      > > >
      > > > Officers for Guard To-morrow, Lt. Goggin, Lt. Towles, Lt. Bentley.
      > > >
      > > > Officer for Fatigue, Lt. Ashton
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > CAMP M. BROOK, June 13th, 1777.
      > > >
      > > > BRIGADE ORDERS.
      > > >
      > > > Major Genfl Stephens has been pleased to order that there be a Field day of his Division on Sunday at 2 ofclock in the Afternoon. The General hopes that every Officer will make a point of having his Men in the best order upon this occasion both as to their Cloaths & Arms, & that every Non Commissionfd Officer & private Soldier will consider his own Reputation as well as that of the Brigade to be concern d in his Conduct upon that day, where we shall be probably honoured with the attendance of His Excellency the Commander-in-Chief, and all the the General Officers in Camp. As there has been permission for a General Discharge of Arms yesterday and positive Orders to have them well Cleanfd, no Excuse will be admitted for those who have them in order.
      > > >
      > > > The Artillery of the Brigade are likewise to prepare every- thing for their attendance. The Commanding Officer of Each Regft will have timely Notice where to apply for blank Cartridges for their Men
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > HEAD QUARTERS Q. TOWN, June 25th, 1777.
      > > >
      > > > G. ORDERS.
      > > >
      > > > Major General for to morrow-Stephen. Brigadier General for to-morrow-Woodford. Field Officers Lt. Cob. Sayers, Major Hays. Brigade Major, Swaine.
      > > >
      > > > The Picquets to be relieved this day at 10 OfC A. M. Tomorrow at 6 0Œ C., the usual Hour. Whenever any firing or anything Else unusual in the Camp is permitted by the Major Genfl of the Day, he is immediately to report it to the Commander-in-Chief-to prevent any unnecessary inquiries into the Cause of it. The Officers are always to take the most particular care that no damage be where the Troops are encamped. The inevitable distresses of War are so great and numerous that any addition to them must be deemfd to prdceed from barbarity & wantoness alone-more especially on us, by whom that property was designfd, and ought to be protected.
      > > >
      > > > D. ORDERS.
      > > >
      > > > The Cartridges which are too Small or have too little Powder, or are damagfd to be returnfd to the Commissary of Stores, and they will be exchangfd for what will Suit their different Arms. by order of Genfl Knox.
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • jseymour2321
      Hi Bob, For initial mustering-in, the militia frequently reported with a basic load (usually one day) and the requisite provisions (usually three days) and
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 1, 2012
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        Hi Bob,

        For initial mustering-in, the militia frequently reported with a basic load (usually one day) and the requisite provisions (usually three days) and equipment, in other words, enough to get them to the depot, where they were inspected and put in a state of readiness.

        Look at the County Lieutenant Reports, as well as the reports of the field commanders and mustering officers-- you'll note that the militia was resupplied in the field with cartridges. General Arnold mentions that 100,000 cartridges were sorted, which as we all know could mean almost anything, but that's why this stuff is so much fun.

        Best,

        Joe


        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@...> wrote:
        >
        > Joe,
        > Very interested in the Autumn '77 issue to Pa Militia troops? Are these the troops called out for Brandywine/Germantown?
        > I have an order from the county Lieutenant of Lancaster for the call out of men to march for the Brandywine, and it is specific about the men reporting with at least 20 cartridges. This sounds like they are to provide their own ammunition(?).
        > Cheers,
        > Bob Bolton
        > Pa. Associators
        >
        >
        > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "jseymour2321" <jaseymour@> wrote:
        > >
        > > John,
        > >
        > > I've often wondered about this myself. In May 1776, the Pennsylvania Committee of Safety standardized about a half dozen cartridge sizes among the arms issued to Pennsylvania troops. Battalion adjutants were to keep size books recording the respective calibers of the weapons in their units-- cartridges were marked and issued according to the several bore sizes. At about that time, Congress authorized buck and ball as the standard load. After 1778, brigades and Army depots maintained a 20,000 cartridge reserve, at which point, this practice either continued, or the issuance of buck and ball mitigated the problem. At any rate, the presence of disparate bore sizes does not appear to have been a problem, since Pennsylvania issued cartridges to its militia troops in the autumn of 1777, and at least one Pennsylvania regiment carried an assortment of weapons in an assortment of calibers as late as 1780.
        > >
        > > I hope this helps.
        > >
        > > Respectfully,
        > >
        > > Joe Seymour
        > > Baltimore
        > >
        > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "gregsandor" <gregsandor@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > John, I don't have anything on 1778, but here are a few earlier references from the ORDERLY BOOK OF THE COMPANY OF Captain George Stubblefield FIFTH VIRGINIA REGIMENT, FROM MARCH 3, 1776, TO JULY 10, 1776, INCLUSIVE.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > SUFFOLK, May 24th, 1776.
        > > >
        > > > G. O. Parole-Harmony.
        > > >
        > > > Officer for the Day To-morrow, Capt. Anderson.
        > > >
        > > > The Qfr-Masters of the Different Regfts are Requestfd immediately to take two men from Each Compfy out of their Respective Regfts, and employ them in Making Cartridges. The Qfr-Masters will see that they are well made, and of Different Sizes. No Soldier hereafter will attempt to walk the Streets after the Tattoo Beating. The Guard at the Court House to be increased, and a Subfn.
        > > >
        > > > R. O. Officers for Guard To-morrow, Lt. Colston, Lt. Anderson
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > NORFOLK, June 12th, 1776.
        > > >
        > > > G. O. Parole-Mugford.
        > > >
        > > > Officer for the Day To-morrow, Capt. Pleasants. A Court Martial to sit To-day at Capt. Andersonfs House at 10 ofClock, for the Trial of the Drum Major, Prisoner in the Guard House.
        > > >
        > > > Capt. Gaskins, President.
        > > >
        > > > Lt. Colston, Lt. Anderson,
        > > >
        > > > Lt. Ashton, Ensign Duval.
        > > >
        > > > A. O.
        > > >
        > > > The Qfr-Master is immediately to Divide what Cartridges he has among the Different Companies, and also to Issue 1/4 lb. Powder, and Lead Equivalent thereto, to the Rifle Men; the Cartridges to be suited to the Boars of the Guns. The Commanders of Companies to see that their arms are in the Best order. The long Roll to beat at 1 ofClock, and the Companies to Parade, as there is a Report of an Enemy in the Bay. It is expected the officers and Soldiers will hold them Selves in Readiness to act in Conjunction with the Troops at Portsmouth to oppose their Landing.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > NORFOLK, June 13th, 1776.
        > > >
        > > > Parole-Hampton.
        > > >
        > > > Officer of the Day To-morrow, Capt. Anderson.
        > > >
        > > > The Commanders of Compfys are Earnestly Desirious to See that they be Drillfd Every Day, and it is too obvious that they make an indifferent Figure upon the Genfl Parade. It is hoped all the Care and Pain will be Taken in Futer to Render the Regft Respectable. The Qfr-Master is to Take as many men from Each Compfy as it may Want to Expedite the making Cartridges. The Long Roll to Beat at 4 ofClock this Evening, which will in Future be the Establishfd Time for a Genfl Parade.
        > > >
        > > > Officers for Guard To-morrow, Lt. Goggin, Lt. Towles, Lt. Bentley.
        > > >
        > > > Officer for Fatigue, Lt. Ashton
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > CAMP M. BROOK, June 13th, 1777.
        > > >
        > > > BRIGADE ORDERS.
        > > >
        > > > Major Genfl Stephens has been pleased to order that there be a Field day of his Division on Sunday at 2 ofclock in the Afternoon. The General hopes that every Officer will make a point of having his Men in the best order upon this occasion both as to their Cloaths & Arms, & that every Non Commissionfd Officer & private Soldier will consider his own Reputation as well as that of the Brigade to be concern d in his Conduct upon that day, where we shall be probably honoured with the attendance of His Excellency the Commander-in-Chief, and all the the General Officers in Camp. As there has been permission for a General Discharge of Arms yesterday and positive Orders to have them well Cleanfd, no Excuse will be admitted for those who have them in order.
        > > >
        > > > The Artillery of the Brigade are likewise to prepare every- thing for their attendance. The Commanding Officer of Each Regft will have timely Notice where to apply for blank Cartridges for their Men
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > HEAD QUARTERS Q. TOWN, June 25th, 1777.
        > > >
        > > > G. ORDERS.
        > > >
        > > > Major General for to morrow-Stephen. Brigadier General for to-morrow-Woodford. Field Officers Lt. Cob. Sayers, Major Hays. Brigade Major, Swaine.
        > > >
        > > > The Picquets to be relieved this day at 10 OfC A. M. Tomorrow at 6 0Œ C., the usual Hour. Whenever any firing or anything Else unusual in the Camp is permitted by the Major Genfl of the Day, he is immediately to report it to the Commander-in-Chief-to prevent any unnecessary inquiries into the Cause of it. The Officers are always to take the most particular care that no damage be where the Troops are encamped. The inevitable distresses of War are so great and numerous that any addition to them must be deemfd to prdceed from barbarity & wantoness alone-more especially on us, by whom that property was designfd, and ought to be protected.
        > > >
        > > > D. ORDERS.
        > > >
        > > > The Cartridges which are too Small or have too little Powder, or are damagfd to be returnfd to the Commissary of Stores, and they will be exchangfd for what will Suit their different Arms. by order of Genfl Knox.
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • ebolton123
        Joe, I have read such things, however I was wondering given the date, was it a call out for the Brandywine venture specifically? As we know, Armstrong s men
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 1, 2012
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          Joe,
          I have read such things, however I was wondering given the date, was it a call out for the Brandywine venture specifically? As we know, Armstrong's men fired little if anything during that engagement, so would have reached the scene of battle with their boxes topped off.
          Cheers,
          Bob Bolton
          Pa. Associators

          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "jseymour2321" <jaseymour@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Bob,
          >
          > For initial mustering-in, the militia frequently reported with a basic load (usually one day) and the requisite provisions (usually three days) and equipment, in other words, enough to get them to the depot, where they were inspected and put in a state of readiness.
          >
          > Look at the County Lieutenant Reports, as well as the reports of the field commanders and mustering officers-- you'll note that the militia was resupplied in the field with cartridges. General Arnold mentions that 100,000 cartridges were sorted, which as we all know could mean almost anything, but that's why this stuff is so much fun.
          >
          > Best,
          >
          > Joe
          >
          >
          > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Joe,
          > > Very interested in the Autumn '77 issue to Pa Militia troops? Are these the troops called out for Brandywine/Germantown?
          > > I have an order from the county Lieutenant of Lancaster for the call out of men to march for the Brandywine, and it is specific about the men reporting with at least 20 cartridges. This sounds like they are to provide their own ammunition(?).
          > > Cheers,
          > > Bob Bolton
          > > Pa. Associators
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "jseymour2321" <jaseymour@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > John,
          > > >
          > > > I've often wondered about this myself. In May 1776, the Pennsylvania Committee of Safety standardized about a half dozen cartridge sizes among the arms issued to Pennsylvania troops. Battalion adjutants were to keep size books recording the respective calibers of the weapons in their units-- cartridges were marked and issued according to the several bore sizes. At about that time, Congress authorized buck and ball as the standard load. After 1778, brigades and Army depots maintained a 20,000 cartridge reserve, at which point, this practice either continued, or the issuance of buck and ball mitigated the problem. At any rate, the presence of disparate bore sizes does not appear to have been a problem, since Pennsylvania issued cartridges to its militia troops in the autumn of 1777, and at least one Pennsylvania regiment carried an assortment of weapons in an assortment of calibers as late as 1780.
          > > >
          > > > I hope this helps.
          > > >
          > > > Respectfully,
          > > >
          > > > Joe Seymour
          > > > Baltimore
          > > >
          > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "gregsandor" <gregsandor@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > John, I don't have anything on 1778, but here are a few earlier references from the ORDERLY BOOK OF THE COMPANY OF Captain George Stubblefield FIFTH VIRGINIA REGIMENT, FROM MARCH 3, 1776, TO JULY 10, 1776, INCLUSIVE.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > SUFFOLK, May 24th, 1776.
          > > > >
          > > > > G. O. Parole-Harmony.
          > > > >
          > > > > Officer for the Day To-morrow, Capt. Anderson.
          > > > >
          > > > > The Qfr-Masters of the Different Regfts are Requestfd immediately to take two men from Each Compfy out of their Respective Regfts, and employ them in Making Cartridges. The Qfr-Masters will see that they are well made, and of Different Sizes. No Soldier hereafter will attempt to walk the Streets after the Tattoo Beating. The Guard at the Court House to be increased, and a Subfn.
          > > > >
          > > > > R. O. Officers for Guard To-morrow, Lt. Colston, Lt. Anderson
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > NORFOLK, June 12th, 1776.
          > > > >
          > > > > G. O. Parole-Mugford.
          > > > >
          > > > > Officer for the Day To-morrow, Capt. Pleasants. A Court Martial to sit To-day at Capt. Andersonfs House at 10 ofClock, for the Trial of the Drum Major, Prisoner in the Guard House.
          > > > >
          > > > > Capt. Gaskins, President.
          > > > >
          > > > > Lt. Colston, Lt. Anderson,
          > > > >
          > > > > Lt. Ashton, Ensign Duval.
          > > > >
          > > > > A. O.
          > > > >
          > > > > The Qfr-Master is immediately to Divide what Cartridges he has among the Different Companies, and also to Issue 1/4 lb. Powder, and Lead Equivalent thereto, to the Rifle Men; the Cartridges to be suited to the Boars of the Guns. The Commanders of Companies to see that their arms are in the Best order. The long Roll to beat at 1 ofClock, and the Companies to Parade, as there is a Report of an Enemy in the Bay. It is expected the officers and Soldiers will hold them Selves in Readiness to act in Conjunction with the Troops at Portsmouth to oppose their Landing.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > NORFOLK, June 13th, 1776.
          > > > >
          > > > > Parole-Hampton.
          > > > >
          > > > > Officer of the Day To-morrow, Capt. Anderson.
          > > > >
          > > > > The Commanders of Compfys are Earnestly Desirious to See that they be Drillfd Every Day, and it is too obvious that they make an indifferent Figure upon the Genfl Parade. It is hoped all the Care and Pain will be Taken in Futer to Render the Regft Respectable. The Qfr-Master is to Take as many men from Each Compfy as it may Want to Expedite the making Cartridges. The Long Roll to Beat at 4 ofClock this Evening, which will in Future be the Establishfd Time for a Genfl Parade.
          > > > >
          > > > > Officers for Guard To-morrow, Lt. Goggin, Lt. Towles, Lt. Bentley.
          > > > >
          > > > > Officer for Fatigue, Lt. Ashton
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > CAMP M. BROOK, June 13th, 1777.
          > > > >
          > > > > BRIGADE ORDERS.
          > > > >
          > > > > Major Genfl Stephens has been pleased to order that there be a Field day of his Division on Sunday at 2 ofclock in the Afternoon. The General hopes that every Officer will make a point of having his Men in the best order upon this occasion both as to their Cloaths & Arms, & that every Non Commissionfd Officer & private Soldier will consider his own Reputation as well as that of the Brigade to be concern d in his Conduct upon that day, where we shall be probably honoured with the attendance of His Excellency the Commander-in-Chief, and all the the General Officers in Camp. As there has been permission for a General Discharge of Arms yesterday and positive Orders to have them well Cleanfd, no Excuse will be admitted for those who have them in order.
          > > > >
          > > > > The Artillery of the Brigade are likewise to prepare every- thing for their attendance. The Commanding Officer of Each Regft will have timely Notice where to apply for blank Cartridges for their Men
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > HEAD QUARTERS Q. TOWN, June 25th, 1777.
          > > > >
          > > > > G. ORDERS.
          > > > >
          > > > > Major General for to morrow-Stephen. Brigadier General for to-morrow-Woodford. Field Officers Lt. Cob. Sayers, Major Hays. Brigade Major, Swaine.
          > > > >
          > > > > The Picquets to be relieved this day at 10 OfC A. M. Tomorrow at 6 0Œ C., the usual Hour. Whenever any firing or anything Else unusual in the Camp is permitted by the Major Genfl of the Day, he is immediately to report it to the Commander-in-Chief-to prevent any unnecessary inquiries into the Cause of it. The Officers are always to take the most particular care that no damage be where the Troops are encamped. The inevitable distresses of War are so great and numerous that any addition to them must be deemfd to prdceed from barbarity & wantoness alone-more especially on us, by whom that property was designfd, and ought to be protected.
          > > > >
          > > > > D. ORDERS.
          > > > >
          > > > > The Cartridges which are too Small or have too little Powder, or are damagfd to be returnfd to the Commissary of Stores, and they will be exchangfd for what will Suit their different Arms. by order of Genfl Knox.
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • jseymour2321
          Bob, I m looking more at big picture doctrine. You have a very good point, but assuming that a soldier who was issued twenty rounds in August would still have
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 1, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Bob,

            I'm looking more at big picture doctrine. You have a very good point, but assuming that a soldier who was issued twenty rounds in August would still have those twenty rounds assumes that he wasn't involved in any screening, patrolling, or reconnaissance prior to September 11, actions that appeared only fleetingly in the reports to President Wharton. Spoilage from bad weather and wet conditions in fatigue details along the Delaware river, as well as wasted rounds from breakage and loss when weapons were turned in would all leave that soldier with very little ammunition on the day of battle. But as I said, I'm looking at doctrine-- soldiers weren't and aren't into battle with only enough ammunition to get them through a projected battle, but are sent with enough ammunition to sustain them through combat, as well as a reserve.

            Joe



            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@...> wrote:
            >
            > Joe,
            > I have read such things, however was wondering given the date, was it a call out for the Brandywine venture specifically? As we know, Armstrong's men fired little if anything during that engagement, so would have reached the scene of battle with their boxes topped off.
            > Cheers,
            > Bob Bolton
            > Pa. Associators
            >
            > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "jseymour2321" <jaseymour@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi Bob,
            > >
            > > For initial mustering-in, the militia frequently reported with a basic load (usually one day) and the requisite provisions (usually three days) and equipment, in other words, enough to get them to the depot, where they were inspected and put in a state of readiness.
            > >
            > > Look at the County Lieutenant Reports, as well as the reports of the field commanders and mustering officers-- you'll note that the militia was resupplied in the field with cartridges. General Arnold mentions that 100,000 cartridges were sorted, which as we all know could mean almost anything, but that's why this stuff is so much fun.
            > >
            > > Best,
            > >
            > > Joe
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Joe,
            > > > Very interested in the Autumn '77 issue to Pa Militia troops? Are these the troops called out for Brandywine/Germantown?
            > > > I have an order from the county Lieutenant of Lancaster for the call out of men to march for the Brandywine, and it is specific about the men reporting with at least 20 cartridges. This sounds like they are to provide their own ammunition(?).
            > > > Cheers,
            > > > Bob Bolton
            > > > Pa. Associators
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "jseymour2321" <jaseymour@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > John,
            > > > >
            > > > > I've often wondered about this myself. In May 1776, the Pennsylvania Committee of Safety standardized about a half dozen cartridge sizes among the arms issued to Pennsylvania troops. Battalion adjutants were to keep size books recording the respective calibers of the weapons in their units-- cartridges were marked and issued according to the several bore sizes. At about that time, Congress authorized buck and ball as the standard load. After 1778, brigades and Army depots maintained a 20,000 cartridge reserve, at which point, this practice either continued, or the issuance of buck and ball mitigated the problem. At any rate, the presence of disparate bore sizes does not appear to have been a problem, since Pennsylvania issued cartridges to its militia troops in the autumn of 1777, and at least one Pennsylvania regiment carried an assortment of weapons in an assortment of calibers as late as 1780.
            > > > >
            > > > > I hope this helps.
            > > > >
            > > > > Respectfully,
            > > > >
            > > > > Joe Seymour
            > > > > Baltimore
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "gregsandor" <gregsandor@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > John, I don't have anything on 1778, but here are a few earlier references from the ORDERLY BOOK OF THE COMPANY OF Captain George Stubblefield FIFTH VIRGINIA REGIMENT, FROM MARCH 3, 1776, TO JULY 10, 1776, INCLUSIVE.
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > SUFFOLK, May 24th, 1776.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > G. O. Parole-Harmony.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Officer for the Day To-morrow, Capt. Anderson.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The Qfr-Masters of the Different Regfts are Requestfd immediately to take two men from Each Compfy out of their Respective Regfts, and employ them in Making Cartridges. The Qfr-Masters will see that they are well made, and of Different Sizes. No Soldier hereafter will attempt to walk the Streets after the Tattoo Beating. The Guard at the Court House to be increased, and a Subfn.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > R. O. Officers for Guard To-morrow, Lt. Colston, Lt. Anderson
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > NORFOLK, June 12th, 1776.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > G. O. Parole-Mugford.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Officer for the Day To-morrow, Capt. Pleasants. A Court Martial to sit To-day at Capt. Andersonfs House at 10 ofClock, for the Trial of the Drum Major, Prisoner in the Guard House.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Capt. Gaskins, President.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Lt. Colston, Lt. Anderson,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Lt. Ashton, Ensign Duval.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > A. O.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The Qfr-Master is immediately to Divide what Cartridges he has among the Different Companies, and also to Issue 1/4 lb. Powder, and Lead Equivalent thereto, to the Rifle Men; the Cartridges to be suited to the Boars of the Guns. The Commanders of Companies to see that their arms are in the Best order. The long Roll to beat at 1 ofClock, and the Companies to Parade, as there is a Report of an Enemy in the Bay. It is expected the officers and Soldiers will hold them Selves in Readiness to act in Conjunction with the Troops at Portsmouth to oppose their Landing.
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > NORFOLK, June 13th, 1776.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Parole-Hampton.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Officer of the Day To-morrow, Capt. Anderson.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The Commanders of Compfys are Earnestly Desirious to See that they be Drillfd Every Day, and it is too obvious that they make an indifferent Figure upon the Genfl Parade. It is hoped all the Care and Pain will be Taken in Futer to Render the Regft Respectable. The Qfr-Master is to Take as many men from Each Compfy as it may Want to Expedite the making Cartridges. The Long Roll to Beat at 4 ofClock this Evening, which will in Future be the Establishfd Time for a Genfl Parade.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Officers for Guard To-morrow, Lt. Goggin, Lt. Towles, Lt. Bentley.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Officer for Fatigue, Lt. Ashton
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > CAMP M. BROOK, June 13th, 1777.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > BRIGADE ORDERS.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Major Genfl Stephens has been pleased to order that there be a Field day of his Division on Sunday at 2 ofclock in the Afternoon. The General hopes that every Officer will make a point of having his Men in the best order upon this occasion both as to their Cloaths & Arms, & that every Non Commissionfd Officer & private Soldier will consider his own Reputation as well as that of the Brigade to be concern d in his Conduct upon that day, where we shall be probably honoured with the attendance of His Excellency the Commander-in-Chief, and all the the General Officers in Camp. As there has been permission for a General Discharge of Arms yesterday and positive Orders to have them well Cleanfd, no Excuse will be admitted for those who have them in order.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The Artillery of the Brigade are likewise to prepare every- thing for their attendance. The Commanding Officer of Each Regft will have timely Notice where to apply for blank Cartridges for their Men
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > HEAD QUARTERS Q. TOWN, June 25th, 1777.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > G. ORDERS.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Major General for to morrow-Stephen. Brigadier General for to-morrow-Woodford. Field Officers Lt. Cob. Sayers, Major Hays. Brigade Major, Swaine.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The Picquets to be relieved this day at 10 OfC A. M. Tomorrow at 6 0Œ C., the usual Hour. Whenever any firing or anything Else unusual in the Camp is permitted by the Major Genfl of the Day, he is immediately to report it to the Commander-in-Chief-to prevent any unnecessary inquiries into the Cause of it. The Officers are always to take the most particular care that no damage be where the Troops are encamped. The inevitable distresses of War are so great and numerous that any addition to them must be deemfd to prdceed from barbarity & wantoness alone-more especially on us, by whom that property was designfd, and ought to be protected.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > D. ORDERS.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The Cartridges which are too Small or have too little Powder, or are damagfd to be returnfd to the Commissary of Stores, and they will be exchangfd for what will Suit their different Arms. by order of Genfl Knox.
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • ebolton123
            Joe, Yes. The Militia during the opening stages at Kennett Meetinghouse and the running fall back to Chadd s Ford did expend some rounds. But, they had
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 2, 2012
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              Joe,
              Yes. The Militia during the opening stages at Kennett Meetinghouse and the running fall back to Chadd's Ford did expend some rounds. But, they had already arrived on the scene and had been waiting since daybreak when the British moved out from Kennett Square. I have read nothing that they recieved any supplies en-route to the Brandywine. I can only speak for the troops coming from the Lancaster area though.
              As to your last comment, I respectfully dissagree. Many times in the Revolution and other conflicts, troops went into battle with barely adequate ammo supplies. Bunker Hill comes immediatly to mind. The main reason the Brits took the hill(?) is the fact that the Colonials ran out of ammo. I'm interested to learn where and when any battle's duration is/was pre-determined that there has ever been "enough" ammo?
              Cheers,
              Bob Bolton
              Pa. Associators

              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "jseymour2321" <jaseymour@...> wrote:
              >
              > Bob,
              >
              > I'm looking more at big picture doctrine. You have a very good point, but assuming that a soldier who was issued twenty rounds in August would still have those twenty rounds assumes that he wasn't involved in any screening, patrolling, or reconnaissance prior to September 11, actions that appeared only fleetingly in the reports to President Wharton. Spoilage from bad weather and wet conditions in fatigue details along the Delaware river, as well as wasted rounds from breakage and loss when weapons were turned in would all leave that soldier with very little ammunition on the day of battle. But as I said, I'm looking at doctrine-- soldiers weren't and aren't into battle with only enough ammunition to get them through a projected battle, but are sent with enough ammunition to sustain them through combat, as well as a reserve.
              >
              > Joe
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Joe,
              > > I have read such things, however was wondering given the date, was it a call out for the Brandywine venture specifically? As we know, Armstrong's men fired little if anything during that engagement, so would have reached the scene of battle with their boxes topped off.
              > > Cheers,
              > > Bob Bolton
              > > Pa. Associators
              > >
              > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "jseymour2321" <jaseymour@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hi Bob,
              > > >
              > > > For initial mustering-in, the militia frequently reported with a basic load (usually one day) and the requisite provisions (usually three days) and equipment, in other words, enough to get them to the depot, where they were inspected and put in a state of readiness.
              > > >
              > > > Look at the County Lieutenant Reports, as well as the reports of the field commanders and mustering officers-- you'll note that the militia was resupplied in the field with cartridges. General Arnold mentions that 100,000 cartridges were sorted, which as we all know could mean almost anything, but that's why this stuff is so much fun.
              > > >
              > > > Best,
              > > >
              > > > Joe
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "ebolton123" <ebolton123@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Joe,
              > > > > Very interested in the Autumn '77 issue to Pa Militia troops? Are these the troops called out for Brandywine/Germantown?
              > > > > I have an order from the county Lieutenant of Lancaster for the call out of men to march for the Brandywine, and it is specific about the men reporting with at least 20 cartridges. This sounds like they are to provide their own ammunition(?).
              > > > > Cheers,
              > > > > Bob Bolton
              > > > > Pa. Associators
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "jseymour2321" <jaseymour@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > John,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I've often wondered about this myself. In May 1776, the Pennsylvania Committee of Safety standardized about a half dozen cartridge sizes among the arms issued to Pennsylvania troops. Battalion adjutants were to keep size books recording the respective calibers of the weapons in their units-- cartridges were marked and issued according to the several bore sizes. At about that time, Congress authorized buck and ball as the standard load. After 1778, brigades and Army depots maintained a 20,000 cartridge reserve, at which point, this practice either continued, or the issuance of buck and ball mitigated the problem. At any rate, the presence of disparate bore sizes does not appear to have been a problem, since Pennsylvania issued cartridges to its militia troops in the autumn of 1777, and at least one Pennsylvania regiment carried an assortment of weapons in an assortment of calibers as late as 1780.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I hope this helps.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Respectfully,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Joe Seymour
              > > > > > Baltimore
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "gregsandor" <gregsandor@> wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > John, I don't have anything on 1778, but here are a few earlier references from the ORDERLY BOOK OF THE COMPANY OF Captain George Stubblefield FIFTH VIRGINIA REGIMENT, FROM MARCH 3, 1776, TO JULY 10, 1776, INCLUSIVE.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > SUFFOLK, May 24th, 1776.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > G. O. Parole-Harmony.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Officer for the Day To-morrow, Capt. Anderson.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > The Qfr-Masters of the Different Regfts are Requestfd immediately to take two men from Each Compfy out of their Respective Regfts, and employ them in Making Cartridges. The Qfr-Masters will see that they are well made, and of Different Sizes. No Soldier hereafter will attempt to walk the Streets after the Tattoo Beating. The Guard at the Court House to be increased, and a Subfn.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > R. O. Officers for Guard To-morrow, Lt. Colston, Lt. Anderson
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > NORFOLK, June 12th, 1776.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > G. O. Parole-Mugford.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Officer for the Day To-morrow, Capt. Pleasants. A Court Martial to sit To-day at Capt. Andersonfs House at 10 ofClock, for the Trial of the Drum Major, Prisoner in the Guard House.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Capt. Gaskins, President.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Lt. Colston, Lt. Anderson,
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Lt. Ashton, Ensign Duval.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > A. O.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > The Qfr-Master is immediately to Divide what Cartridges he has among the Different Companies, and also to Issue 1/4 lb. Powder, and Lead Equivalent thereto, to the Rifle Men; the Cartridges to be suited to the Boars of the Guns. The Commanders of Companies to see that their arms are in the Best order. The long Roll to beat at 1 ofClock, and the Companies to Parade, as there is a Report of an Enemy in the Bay. It is expected the officers and Soldiers will hold them Selves in Readiness to act in Conjunction with the Troops at Portsmouth to oppose their Landing.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > NORFOLK, June 13th, 1776.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Parole-Hampton.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Officer of the Day To-morrow, Capt. Anderson.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > The Commanders of Compfys are Earnestly Desirious to See that they be Drillfd Every Day, and it is too obvious that they make an indifferent Figure upon the Genfl Parade. It is hoped all the Care and Pain will be Taken in Futer to Render the Regft Respectable. The Qfr-Master is to Take as many men from Each Compfy as it may Want to Expedite the making Cartridges. The Long Roll to Beat at 4 ofClock this Evening, which will in Future be the Establishfd Time for a Genfl Parade.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Officers for Guard To-morrow, Lt. Goggin, Lt. Towles, Lt. Bentley.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Officer for Fatigue, Lt. Ashton
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > CAMP M. BROOK, June 13th, 1777.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > BRIGADE ORDERS.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Major Genfl Stephens has been pleased to order that there be a Field day of his Division on Sunday at 2 ofclock in the Afternoon. The General hopes that every Officer will make a point of having his Men in the best order upon this occasion both as to their Cloaths & Arms, & that every Non Commissionfd Officer & private Soldier will consider his own Reputation as well as that of the Brigade to be concern d in his Conduct upon that day, where we shall be probably honoured with the attendance of His Excellency the Commander-in-Chief, and all the the General Officers in Camp. As there has been permission for a General Discharge of Arms yesterday and positive Orders to have them well Cleanfd, no Excuse will be admitted for those who have them in order.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > The Artillery of the Brigade are likewise to prepare every- thing for their attendance. The Commanding Officer of Each Regft will have timely Notice where to apply for blank Cartridges for their Men
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > HEAD QUARTERS Q. TOWN, June 25th, 1777.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > G. ORDERS.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Major General for to morrow-Stephen. Brigadier General for to-morrow-Woodford. Field Officers Lt. Cob. Sayers, Major Hays. Brigade Major, Swaine.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > The Picquets to be relieved this day at 10 OfC A. M. Tomorrow at 6 0Œ C., the usual Hour. Whenever any firing or anything Else unusual in the Camp is permitted by the Major Genfl of the Day, he is immediately to report it to the Commander-in-Chief-to prevent any unnecessary inquiries into the Cause of it. The Officers are always to take the most particular care that no damage be where the Troops are encamped. The inevitable distresses of War are so great and numerous that any addition to them must be deemfd to prdceed from barbarity & wantoness alone-more especially on us, by whom that property was designfd, and ought to be protected.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > D. ORDERS.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > The Cartridges which are too Small or have too little Powder, or are damagfd to be returnfd to the Commissary of Stores, and they will be exchangfd for what will Suit their different Arms. by order of Genfl Knox.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • jseymour2321
              Bob, Thanks so much for your insignt. I ve enjoyed this discussion. Best, Joe
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 2, 2012
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                Bob,

                Thanks so much for your insignt. I've enjoyed this discussion.

                Best,

                Joe
              • rlsherman@sc.rr.com
                Greetings, Just happen to be reading the rock em sock em action packed The Papers of General Nathanael Greene; Volume VII, 26 December 1780-29 March 1781 ,
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 2, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Greetings,

                  Just happen to be reading the rock 'em sock 'em action packed "The Papers of General Nathanael Greene; Volume VII, 26 December 1780-29 March 1781", Showman & Conrad Eds, (UNC Press, 1994), P. 327 "To Colonel Charles Harrison...21 February 1781. The Army lacks cartridges. Harrison is to "collect Captain Irish's party," set them up in a "Laboratory" at Prince Edward Court House, and personally oversee the making of the cartridges. He should also procure "six or seven bullet molds" of various sizes for the Army..." note: Capt. Nathaniel Irish commanded a company of artillery artificers. In his letter of 22 March, below, NG complained to Steuben that nothing had been done about the "Laboratory."

                  This was only an extract, my assumption is the complete letter covered actual sizes, possibly by numbers of ball per pound. At least this was how they were doing it for the Southern Army in 1781, hope it is of some interest.

                  Bob Sherman
                  Charleston, SC
                • jseymour2321
                  Bob (if I may call you that), I have not seen this. Above and beyond the regimental returns, this confirms that the 1776 policy was still in effect. Thank
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 3, 2012
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                    Bob (if I may call you that),

                    I have not seen this. Above and beyond the regimental returns, this confirms that the 1776 policy was still in effect. Thank you for sharing!

                    Best,

                    Joe

                    --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, <rlsherman@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Greetings,
                    >
                    > Just happen to be reading the rock 'em sock 'em action packed "The Papers of General Nathanael Greene; Volume VII, 26 December 1780-29 March 1781", Showman & Conrad Eds, (UNC Press, 1994), P. 327 "To Colonel Charles Harrison...21 February 1781. The Army lacks cartridges. Harrison is to "collect Captain Irish's party," set them up in a "Laboratory" at Prince Edward Court House, and personally oversee the making of the cartridges. He should also procure "six or seven bullet molds" of various sizes for the Army..." note: Capt. Nathaniel Irish commanded a company of artillery artificers. In his letter of 22 March, below, NG complained to Steuben that nothing had been done about the "Laboratory."
                    >
                    > This was only an extract, my assumption is the complete letter covered actual sizes, possibly by numbers of ball per pound. At least this was how they were doing it for the Southern Army in 1781, hope it is of some interest.
                    >
                    > Bob Sherman
                    > Charleston, SC
                    >
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