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Another Oriskany Account

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  • Joyce Bucci
    This account is of an incident that happened during the Battle of Oriskany. It comes from the Widow s Pension application of Susanna Snell, who was married to
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 24, 2011
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      This account is of an incident that happened during the Battle of Oriskany. It comes from the Widow's Pension application of Susanna Snell, who was married to Peter Snell -- my 5th great grandparents. Her deposition, dated 26 December 1838, states:

      "... that she was married to Peter Snell who was a soldier of the war of the Revolution and served, she thinks, in the Company whereof Christian House was Captain in the Regt. of Col. Jacob Klock [Tryon County Militia], and believes he acted as sergeant in said Company in said war -- that her said husband served and was engaged in the Oriskany battle as he informed her in his lifetime and as she believes -- and he also told her that in said battle a large Indian came up to him while behind a tree and snatched his gun from him and asked him to what Regt. he belonged, and that he, her said husband as he informed her, seized his gun in the hands of the Indian and got it away from him and that thereupon the Indian ran with speed from him...."

      It is believed that the "large Indian" who engaged him in both a conversation and a wrestling match with his musket was not an Indian at all, but possibly someone dressed as one.

      Joyce Bucci



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • CArmstrong
      This is interesting. Here in the Tygart Valley in WV one Lt. John White was killed during the Revolution during a time of relative peace and some have
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 24, 2011
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        This is interesting. Here in the Tygart Valley in WV one Lt. John White was killed during the Revolution during a time of relative peace and some have suggested that he was killed by white deserters he was apprehending. In a 1784 action the horses of one man were stolen and another man was killed. A white man was brought up before the court and accused, blamed Indians and that was that. the “Indian” your ancestor encountered was possibly a white man who had been captured as a child and adopted, raised as an Indian. Two brothers here fought on opposite sides at the Battle of the Point. One with the virginians, the other, captured as a child, with the Indians. I wish we could know how many people “killed by Indians” on the frontier were actually killed by white criminals or Tories or in some cases maybe both. Can anyone offer other examples?

        David Armstrong
        Elkins, WV


        From: Joyce Bucci
        Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:36 PM
        To: revlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Revlist] Another Oriskany Account



        This account is of an incident that happened during the Battle of Oriskany. It comes from the Widow's Pension application of Susanna Snell, who was married to Peter Snell -- my 5th great grandparents. Her deposition, dated 26 December 1838, states:

        "... that she was married to Peter Snell who was a soldier of the war of the Revolution and served, she thinks, in the Company whereof Christian House was Captain in the Regt. of Col. Jacob Klock [Tryon County Militia], and believes he acted as sergeant in said Company in said war -- that her said husband served and was engaged in the Oriskany battle as he informed her in his lifetime and as she believes -- and he also told her that in said battle a large Indian came up to him while behind a tree and snatched his gun from him and asked him to what Regt. he belonged, and that he, her said husband as he informed her, seized his gun in the hands of the Indian and got it away from him and that thereupon the Indian ran with speed from him...."

        It is believed that the "large Indian" who engaged him in both a conversation and a wrestling match with his musket was not an Indian at all, but possibly someone dressed as one.

        Joyce Bucci



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Joyce Bucci
        David, While it is entirely possible that Peter s encounter was with a captured white man who was adopted into the nation, I understand that there are accounts
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 25, 2011
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          David,
          While it is entirely possible that Peter's encounter was with a captured white man who was adopted into the nation, I understand that there are accounts (unfortunately, I cannot quote any directly) that speak of Mohawk Valley residents who joined the Tories and fought against their neighbors who were Patriots. To avoid being recognized, they disguised themselves as Indians. I highly suspect that was the sort of "Indian" that Peter encountered because of his rather suspicious actions. For what other reason would he care what regiment Peter was with than to specifically target certain men or avoid killing others?

          Joyce

          To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
          From: nymalafiefall@...
          Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:49:04 -0400
          Subject: Re: [Revlist] Another Oriskany Account




























          This is interesting. Here in the Tygart Valley in WV one Lt. John White was killed during the Revolution during a time of relative peace and some have suggested that he was killed by white deserters he was apprehending. In a 1784 action the horses of one man were stolen and another man was killed. A white man was brought up before the court and accused, blamed Indians and that was that. the �Indian� your ancestor encountered was possibly a white man who had been captured as a child and adopted, raised as an Indian. Two brothers here fought on opposite sides at the Battle of the Point. One with the virginians, the other, captured as a child, with the Indians. I wish we could know how many people �killed by Indians� on the frontier were actually killed by white criminals or Tories or in some cases maybe both. Can anyone offer other examples?



          David Armstrong

          Elkins, WV



          From: Joyce Bucci

          Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:36 PM

          To: revlist@yahoogroups.com

          Subject: [Revlist] Another Oriskany Account



          This account is of an incident that happened during the Battle of Oriskany. It comes from the Widow's Pension application of Susanna Snell, who was married to Peter Snell -- my 5th great grandparents. Her deposition, dated 26 December 1838, states:



          "... that she was married to Peter Snell who was a soldier of the war of the Revolution and served, she thinks, in the Company whereof Christian House was Captain in the Regt. of Col. Jacob Klock [Tryon County Militia], and believes he acted as sergeant in said Company in said war -- that her said husband served and was engaged in the Oriskany battle as he informed her in his lifetime and as she believes -- and he also told her that in said battle a large Indian came up to him while behind a tree and snatched his gun from him and asked him to what Regt. he belonged, and that he, her said husband as he informed her, seized his gun in the hands of the Indian and got it away from him and that thereupon the Indian ran with speed from him...."



          It is believed that the "large Indian" who engaged him in both a conversation and a wrestling match with his musket was not an Indian at all, but possibly someone dressed as one.



          Joyce Bucci



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • CArmstrong
          I think you are right. I have been collecting info about Tories in West(ern) Virginia during the period of the Rev for several years. I have been able to
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 25, 2011
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            I think you are right. I have been collecting info about Tories in
            West(ern) Virginia during the period of the Rev for several years. I have
            been able to learn that after Virginia made being a Tory illegal after May
            of 1777 many of them left but others (apparently taking the oath) stayed. A
            hundred years ago local historians of WV used to marvel at and wonder about
            why Indians would invade the settlements, find two brothers and a neighbor
            working in the fields, then kill one brother and the neighbor and leave the
            other alone. Some of these older historians suggest (given the attitudes of
            their time) that this kind of behavior was incompetence or wanton wickedness
            on the part of the Indians. Of course nowadays we know better. Here in the
            Tygart Valley there were people who knew Indians personally, had Indian
            relatives, and the Indians I believed knew the people that they were
            attacking and would hit some and not others. They tried to kill my uncle,
            John Bush, three times. the third was successful. Some of the people
            "captured" went willingly. Others waited and lived among the settlements
            and then suddenly, when a given raid came, switched sides and attacked their
            own neighborhoods. I believe you are right and I can't add much, except
            that around here there may not have been a lot of disguising necessary as
            many of the frontiersmen and many of the Indians looked and dressed more or
            less alike. I can't speak for the Mohawk Valley during the period, however.
            I only know the upper Ohio. Great fun to speculate anyhow!

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Joyce Bucci
            Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 10:25 AM
            To: revlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [Revlist] Another Oriskany Account


            David,
            While it is entirely possible that Peter's encounter was with a captured
            white man who was adopted into the nation, I understand that there are
            accounts (unfortunately, I cannot quote any directly) that speak of Mohawk
            Valley residents who joined the Tories and fought against their neighbors
            who were Patriots. To avoid being recognized, they disguised themselves as
            Indians. I highly suspect that was the sort of "Indian" that Peter
            encountered because of his rather suspicious actions. For what other reason
            would he care what regiment Peter was with than to specifically target
            certain men or avoid killing others?

            Joyce

            To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
            From: nymalafiefall@... I
            Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:49:04 -0400
            Subject: Re: [Revlist] Another Oriskany Account




























            This is interesting. Here in the Tygart Valley in WV one Lt. John
            White was killed during the Revolution during a time of relative peace and
            some have suggested that he was killed by white deserters he was
            apprehending. In a 1784 action the horses of one man were stolen and
            another man was killed. A white man was brought up before the court and
            accused, blamed Indians and that was that. the “Indian” your ancestor
            encountered was possibly a white man who had been captured as a child and
            adopted, raised as an Indian. Two brothers here fought on opposite sides at
            the Battle of the Point. One with the virginians, the other, captured as a
            child, with the Indians. I wish we could know how many people “killed by
            Indians” on the frontier were actually killed by white criminals or Tories
            or in some cases maybe both. Can anyone offer other examples?



            David Armstrong

            Elkins, WV



            From: Joyce Bucci

            Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:36 PM

            To: revlist@yahoogroups.com

            Subject: [Revlist] Another Oriskany Account



            This account is of an incident that happened during the Battle of Oriskany.
            It comes from the Widow's Pension application of Susanna Snell, who was
            married to Peter Snell -- my 5th great grandparents. Her deposition, dated
            26 December 1838, states:



            "... that she was married to Peter Snell who was a soldier of the war of the
            Revolution and served, she thinks, in the Company whereof Christian House
            was Captain in the Regt. of Col. Jacob Klock [Tryon County Militia], and
            believes he acted as sergeant in said Company in said war -- that her said
            husband served and was engaged in the Oriskany battle as he informed her in
            his lifetime and as she believes -- and he also told her that in said battle
            a large Indian came up to him while behind a tree and snatched his gun from
            him and asked him to what Regt. he belonged, and that he, her said husband
            as he informed her, seized his gun in the hands of the Indian and got it
            away from him and that thereupon the Indian ran with speed from him...."



            It is believed that the "large Indian" who engaged him in both a
            conversation and a wrestling match with his musket was not an Indian at all,
            but possibly someone dressed as one.



            Joyce Bucci



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • mario doreste
            While it is entirely possible that Peter s encounter was with a captured white man who was adopted into the nation, I understand that there are accounts
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 25, 2011
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              "While it is entirely possible that Peter's encounter was with a captured

              white man who was adopted into the nation, I understand that there are

              accounts (unfortunately, I cannot quote any directly) that speak of Mohawk

              Valley residents who joined the Tories and fought against their neighbors

              who were Patriots. To avoid being recognized, they disguised themselves as

              Indians."

              Here are a few direct quotes:



              “Brought In Likewise two of
              Brant's party, who ware Collecting Cattel at the Butternuts for Brant. Ware
              Clothed and painted Like Indians.”

              Col. Alden to General Stark, 12 Aug 1778





              ”The Examination &
              Declaration of Several Tories Bor't In this Day by ye Scout.

              1st. Ephrum Marsh Being Examln'd Confess'd that he was with Brant in the
              Distroying Springfield. That their wase 106 Indians; their party near one half
              tories, & that Brant Left him at the Butternuts & was to Join him
              again; that Brant went to Yunadilla with a Number of Cattle he took at
              Springfield, and like wise, says ***that John Shelden in Indian Dress*** was
              one of Brant party at the Distructlon of Springfield that Shelden returned with
              Brant to Yunadella and Return'd back with him to the Butternuts where Brant
              left him In Quest of Cattle.”

               

              Cherry Valley Aug't 12th
              1778.

              Testimony Of Tories Captured By Captain Ballard Taken Before
              Colonel Alden, George Clinton papers






              “Sometime
              in June last Christopher Riddick wrote to Joseph Brant requesting him to come
              over with a party and fetch him and several other families (who had sons with
              the enemy) with their Effects away, but dont know whether any answers have been
              rec'd to that Letter. Four days before the action of the 10th inst at Torloch,
              Henry Mlrch who went off to the enemy last Fall, came to Torloch and informed
              us that Joseph Brant was coming with a strong party of Indians and Tories to
              Destroy Curry Town, which party arrived on the Borders of Torloch the Day
              following, where they were furnished with provisions, and on the next day being
              Sunday, Marched from Torloch for Curry Town being joined by Lieut. Conrat
              Brown, Christian Olman, Christopher Riddich, Jacob Hanes, Jun'r, Henry Frauts,
              Michael Mirch, Jacobus Hopper, Matthias Mirch, Earnest Frets, Andres Fichter,
              Martis Bowman, Michael Fichter, George Walker, Godleap Bowman. John Summers,
              Henry Hanes, Frederick Mirch, Henry Loucks, Conrat Hopper, Christian Hanover,
              John Conradt, Jacob Coughman, Charles Hearwager, Michael Fredericks, Henry
              Hanes, Jun'r, Jacob Fraunce and myself, all Inhabitants of Torloch and
              Rynbecks;*** (we were all painted and equiped like Indians as were all the
              Tories belonging to the party). ***We were
              promised by Joseph Brandt and Barent Fry, the two Commandants of the Indians
              and Tories, Ten Dollars for every Scalp we took, and that each person who would
              join them should have fifty acres of land.”

               

              July 1781 affidavit in the George Clinton papers.

               



              “Of two departments were
              the assailing foes;

              Wild savage natives lead the first of those…



              ”With them, of parricides a bloody band,

              Assist the ravage of their parent land:

              With equal dress, and arms, and savage arts;

              But more than savage rancour in their hearts.”

               

              Poem of Tryon County Militia Surgeon, Moses Younglove
              about the Battle of Oriskany. Possibly describing BV or ID personnel’s
              appearance. 1777




              Whether to avoid being recognized or simply out of necessity (in the case of Brant's Volunteers who received no pay and were generally supplied out of Brant's own pocket), it did happen at least in the first few years of the NY Frontier part of the RevWar.

              Mario
              http://www.nyfrontierloyalist.blogspot.com/













              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • BDodgeWeaver@AOL.com
              ... Dear David: Here s an example - . . . a few days ago one of my officers arrived at this place [Sunbury, PA] from Wyaleusing who informs me that he made
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 25, 2011
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                --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, CArmstrong <nymalafiefall@...> wrote:
                >
                > . . . I wish we could know how many people killed by Indians on the frontier were actually killed by white criminals or Tories or in some cases maybe both . . . David Armstrong
                > Elkins, WV
                >
                Dear David: Here's an example - ". . . a few days ago one of my officers arrived at this place [Sunbury, PA] from Wyaleusing who informs me that he made not the least discovery of the Savages being there, which makes me believe that our Frontiers may rest secure, one man found dead near Muncy hill, but, believe him to be Killed by some Villian."

                Lt. Col. Ludowick Weltner, commanding officers of the German Regiment, to Governor Thomas Johnston of Maryland, November 11, 1779, ARCHIVES OF MARYLAND, vol. 43, p. 364. During the period the German Rt. was based in Sunbury, PA, with detachments at a series of forts on the West Branch of the Susquehanna.

                - Thad Weaver
                German Rt.
              • Joyce Bucci
                Excellent! Thanks! Joyce To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com From: lapetitguerre@yahoo.com Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:52:55 -0700 Subject: NY Tories in Indian Dress
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 26, 2011
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                  Excellent! Thanks!
                  Joyce

                  To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                  From: lapetitguerre@...
                  Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:52:55 -0700
                  Subject: NY Tories in Indian Dress Was: [Revlist] Oriskany Tory?




























                  "While it is entirely possible that Peter's encounter was with a captured white man who was adopted into the nation, I understand that there are accounts (unfortunately, I cannot quote any directly) that speak of Mohawk Valley residents who joined the Tories and fought against their neighbors who were Patriots. To avoid being recognized, they disguised themselves as Indians."



                  Here are a few direct quotes:



                  �Brought In Likewise two of

                  Brant's party, who ware Collecting Cattel at the Butternuts for Brant. Ware

                  Clothed and painted Like Indians.�



                  Col. Alden to General Stark, 12 Aug 1778



                  �The Examination &

                  Declaration of Several Tories Bor't In this Day by ye Scout.



                  1st. Ephrum Marsh Being Examln'd Confess'd that he was with Brant in the

                  Distroying Springfield. That their wase 106 Indians; their party near one half

                  tories, & that Brant Left him at the Butternuts & was to Join him

                  again; that Brant went to Yunadilla with a Number of Cattle he took at

                  Springfield, and like wise, says ***that John Shelden in Indian Dress*** was

                  one of Brant party at the Distructlon of Springfield that Shelden returned with

                  Brant to Yunadella and Return'd back with him to the Butternuts where Brant

                  left him In Quest of Cattle.�







                  Cherry Valley Aug't 12th

                  1778.



                  Testimony Of Tories Captured By Captain Ballard Taken Before

                  Colonel Alden, George Clinton papers



                  �Sometime

                  in June last Christopher Riddick wrote to Joseph Brant requesting him to come

                  over with a party and fetch him and several other families (who had sons with

                  the enemy) with their Effects away, but dont know whether any answers have been

                  rec'd to that Letter. Four days before the action of the 10th inst at Torloch,

                  Henry Mlrch who went off to the enemy last Fall, came to Torloch and informed

                  us that Joseph Brant was coming with a strong party of Indians and Tories to

                  Destroy Curry Town, which party arrived on the Borders of Torloch the Day

                  following, where they were furnished with provisions, and on the next day being

                  Sunday, Marched from Torloch for Curry Town being joined by Lieut. Conrat

                  Brown, Christian Olman, Christopher Riddich, Jacob Hanes, Jun'r, Henry Frauts,

                  Michael Mirch, Jacobus Hopper, Matthias Mirch, Earnest Frets, Andres Fichter,

                  Martis Bowman, Michael Fichter, George Walker, Godleap Bowman. John Summers,

                  Henry Hanes, Frederick Mirch, Henry Loucks, Conrat Hopper, Christian Hanover,

                  John Conradt, Jacob Coughman, Charles Hearwager, Michael Fredericks, Henry

                  Hanes, Jun'r, Jacob Fraunce and myself, all Inhabitants of Torloch and

                  Rynbecks;*** (we were all painted and equiped like Indians as were all the

                  Tories belonging to the party). ***We were

                  promised by Joseph Brandt and Barent Fry, the two Commandants of the Indians

                  and Tories, Ten Dollars for every Scalp we took, and that each person who would

                  join them should have fifty acres of land.�







                  July 1781 affidavit in the George Clinton papers.







                  �Of two departments were

                  the assailing foes;



                  Wild savage natives lead the first of those�



                  �With them, of parricides a bloody band,



                  Assist the ravage of their parent land:



                  With equal dress, and arms, and savage arts;



                  But more than savage rancour in their hearts.�







                  Poem of Tryon County Militia Surgeon, Moses Younglove

                  about the Battle of Oriskany. Possibly describing BV or ID personnel�s

                  appearance. 1777



                  Whether to avoid being recognized or simply out of necessity (in the case of Brant's Volunteers who received no pay and were generally supplied out of Brant's own pocket), it did happen at least in the first few years of the NY Frontier part of the RevWar.



                  Mario

                  http://www.nyfrontierloyalist.blogspot.com/



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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