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Re: Linen Canvas Tents

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  • davewhiteus
    I wish I could remember the guys who made the tents, but they definitely said Utecht - commenting on how it was the closest match to some tent material
    Message 1 of 80 , Oct 12, 2010
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      I wish I could remember the guys who made the tents, but they definitely said Utecht - commenting on how it was the closest match to some tent material (Swedish?) from our period. Maybe the Anspach Bayreuth Reg't from Germany??? They build tents out of more period cloth, but I honestly don't remember if they used the Utrecht fabric or not.

      What happens if the inside of the tent is touched while its raining?

      I make no apologies for being skeptical. I think there are a lot of skeptics - which is why you see your tents and...?

      It boils down to if I'm going to pay as much for materials as a 'non-correct' tent fully made, then spend hours making it, I want to be SURE it will do what it needs to do.

      You guys say 'yes', but my other experience tells me 'no'.

      Dave

      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Todd Post <todd.post2@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dave,
      >
      > Two tents made from "that fabric"? Utrecht's 12 oz./square foot "Type 215" linen canvas? The only previous attempts I know of used Hemptrader's cloth which is a completely different beast.
      >
      > Be as skeptical as you want, but they work. There was a downpour Saturday evening at the 225th of the Battle of Green Spring and they did fine. Anyone could apply any sort of waterproofing they want to their tents I suppose, but it hasn't been necessary to date.
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Todd
      >
      >
      > Oct 12, 2010 03:01:37 PM, Revlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
      >
      > >Ok, I have to ask - "just as watertight" - really? I know of two tents
      > >made from that fabric a few years ago. They leaked. Keeping tents totally taut takes
      > >work - if they were bumped against on the inside, they leaked. Etc.
      > >
      > >To me there is no point in making a 'more authentic' tent if it doesn't
      > >do the ONE think I want it to do - keep me and my stuff reasonably dry.
      > >
      > >Is it too blasphemous to coat the tent with some kind of water proofing?
      > >
      > >Still skeptical...
      > >
      > >Dave White
      > >von Riedesel
      >
    • vonriedesel
      Hello All, At the request of Greg, I have uploaded page scans to the Photos Section of the group list. They are in the file Prussian Tents I ve only
      Message 80 of 80 , Mar 25, 2011
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        Hello All,
        At the request of Greg, I have uploaded page scans to the Photos Section of the group list. They are in the file "Prussian Tents" I've only included the Type A Tent, but if others are requested, I can do those as well. I converted my orginal scans to JPEG from Rich Text, so some of the detail may be lost.

        In the first one, you can see the two sets of hooks and eyes and how they close the tent. The second one is of a different tent (notice the different tent number in the peak), but is the same style as the first one and gives a closer view of the hook and eye.

        Hope these are helpful!

        Hochactungsvoll,
        Mark Rogers

        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "vonriedesel" <vonriedesel@...> wrote:
        >
        > Greg,
        > I have the book (a gift from my wife in 2005) so I can scan the tent photos and the accompanying illustrations. I just scanned them a few weeks ago to send to Dave White and Doug Roush so that they could begin the process of having tents made, but the Type A Tent scan cut off a bit of the picture so I'll re-scan and get them posted.
        >
        > To continue this discussion, in determining Mr. Woolsey's question as to whether natural or bleach linen was used, Bleckwenn uses the terms "Ungebleicht", or "Unbleached" to describe the linen used, and the various Ökonomie-Regelments order that "Rohe" or "Raw" linen be used. "Rohe" can also be translated as "untreated" when describing hides or fabric. So at least the various German units were using natural linen in the construction of the tents, and were using colored linen for the ridge decoration.
        >
        > Hochactungsvoll,
        > Mark Rogers
        >
        > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Theberge <gstheberge@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Mark,
        > >
        > > Any chance of getting a scan of the tent in Bleckwenn's work (Type A) that we
        > > don't have in the article. I could try Brown university if you don't have one.
        > > THANKS so much for this contribution!!!!!
        > >
        > > Greg
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: vonriedesel <vonriedesel@>
        > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 11:10:46 PM
        > > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Linen Canvas Tents
        > >
        > >
        > > In my haste to compose my previous message, I inadvertently misspelled
        > > Metalhaken, not once, but twice! I shouldn't try to type when my fingers are so
        > > swollen from my psoriatic arthritis (but I digress...)
        > >
        > >
        > > As I was re-reading Bleckwenn's work, I should have included her verbal
        > > description of the Type A Tent's hooks and eyes (p.31, last paragraph) whereby
        > > the hook is on the front flap and the eye is on the bottom (or back) flap. She
        > > also notes that there are peg/stake loops directly in the middle of the bottom
        > > of the flaps that were used in conjunction with the hooks and eyes. She also
        > > notes that the other tents, Type B probably, have the hooks and eyes reversed
        > > and that there probably was not any consistency in how they were attached to
        > > each tent.
        > >
        > > Hochactungsvoll,
        > > Mark Rogers
        > >
        > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "vonriedesel" <vonriedesel@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > To all of the authors of the much-discussed piece on tentage, I thank you all
        > > >for your work, but I do have one question. Not to sound snide or off-handed,
        > > >but did any of the authors actually read Bleckwenn's book or did you just use
        > > >the photographs and illustrations? The reason for this question has to do with
        > > >Radford's observations on the effectiveness of hooks and eyes for closures.
        > > >Bleckwenn clearly points out, through the various regulations, which she
        > > >includes in her wonderful research, that hooks and eyes were procured for
        > > >enlisted men's (Gemeinen) tentage, as well as Officers NCOs, Quarterguard,
        > > >fire-watch tentage, artificers marquees and bell of arms. (pp. 263-70) Buttons
        > > >closures are also described along with the number of buttons procured (pg.
        > > >263-70 op. cit.) This begs the question then, if procured for tentage, how were
        > > >these items used?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > In Bleckwenns' description of the Type A Tent, in the Sonstiges (Miscellaneous)
        > > >section, she describes the tent as having "2 Mettalhakken zum Verschließen des
        > > >Eingangs", or "2 metal hooks to close (or shut) the entrance", i.e., the flaps.
        > > >(p.27) The photo of the described tent (pp.370, 372) shows the hooks closing the
        > > >tent. Of the Type B tent which you referenced in your article, in the Sonstiges
        > > >section, she describes "2 Paar mettalhakken und -ösen zum Schließen des
        > > >Eingangs" or "2 pair metal hooks and eyes to close the entrance" I do not know
        > > >if the hooks and eyes are still on the tent when it was examined for the
        > > >article, but in 1975, they were there.
        > > >
        > > > I do not write this to criticize your research or to impart disparaging
        > > >comments: in fact I am happy that people are starting to look at what is
        > > >published in regards to 18th century German military items. But I'm going to
        > > >have to go with Radford on this one since not only do the regulations and
        > > >procurement orders show that hooks and eyes were used on German tentage, but
        > > >that extant tentage does show them being used. At least the extant tentage
        > > >showed them in 1975....
        > > >
        > > > I will now crawl back into my dark corner and put on my flame retardant suit.
        > > >
        > > > Hochactungsvoll,
        > > > Mark Rogers
        > > > Braunschweig Regiment von Riedesel
        > > > Leib Kompagnie
        > > >
        > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Theberge <gstheberge@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Just for the record, I think any and all discussion on the progress of tent
        > > > > improvement is a step in the right direction. We don't all necessarily agree
        > > >on
        > > >
        > > > > everything (as Radford mentions <g>, and I still gently disagree with his
        > > > > analysis of hooks and eyes), but it's a great step from the commercial crap
        > > >that
        > > >
        > > > > is out there.
        > > > >
        > > > > To be honest, tents weren't assembled on the Ford assembly line. As the
        > > >article
        > > >
        > > > > points out, there are numerous techniques which, if documented, are equally
        > > > > correct.
        > > > >
        > > > > Greg
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > ________________________________
        > > > > From: radford_polinsky <rpolinsky@>
        > > > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 8:08:49 PM
        > > > > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Linen Canvas Tents
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Dear Chip and List-
        > > > >
        > > > > > I have a question for those who have made tents without ties for the front
        > >
        > > > > > flaps. What happens when the wind blows through camp? With nothing to close
        > > >the
        > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > flaps above the ground I can't help but imagine the tent will blow down
        > > >pretty
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > > easily.
        > > > >
        > > > > Since 2002 our [machine sewn cotton canvas] Lochée pattern wedge tents have
        > > >had
        > > >
        > > > > sod flaps, hemp rope tent pin loops through hand sewn eyelets, and hooks and
        > >
        > > > > eyes to close the front flaps.
        > > > >
        > > > > http://www.33rdfoot.org/utr04patrol9.html
        > > > >
        > > > > Both Todd Post and Greg Theberge gently disagree with me on the use of hooks
        > > >and
        > > >
        > > > > eyes, but when we removed the folded canvas ties, we were left with the
        > > > > question; What do you do to close the flap? Tension on the 13th peg is OK as
        > > >far
        > > >
        > > > > as it goes, but the five foot and change front opening needs a little help
        > > > > staying closed. That's where the hooks and eyes come in. We use two pair of
        > > > > black painted iron large hooks and eyes which span about 1 1/4 inches hooked
        > >
        > > > > together. They are very similar to artifact hooks and eyes which have been
        > > > > excavated at Revolutionary War camp sites. One of Washington's Marquees used
        > >
        > > > > hooks and eyes to suspend the side walls from the canopy, so the use of hooks
        > > >
        > > > > and eyes with tents was not unknown. Granted, the one period image I have
        > > >found
        > > >
        > > > > which seems to support the use of hooks and eyes on wedge tents is too
        > > > > indistinct to be conclusive.
        > > > >
        > > > > However - they work. I can close them from inside the tent. I can close them
        > >
        > > > > from outside the tent. They are quick and simple to fasten as you dash in and
        > > >
        > > > > out of your tent a dozen times a day - much less fuss than hooking the loops
        > >
        > > > > over the 13th peg.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > As for wind and weather - we did an event out here (California) where the
        > > >winds
        > > >
        > > > > came up so severe that most of the vendor's pop ups and awnings were blown
        > > >into
        > > >
        > > > > Prado Lake. Our camp's only canvas casualty was that the finial and top cover
        > > >of
        > > >
        > > > > our Bell of Arms ended up in the lake as well. Our wedge tents rode it out
        > > >just
        > > >
        > > > > fine.
        > > > >
        > > > > Cheers!
        > > > >
        > > > > Radford Polinsky
        > > > > (Sjt. John Savage, Col's Coy HM 33rd Foot)
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
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