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Paoli Painting (was Della Gatta and other stuff)

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  • mbrmanning2
    ... Interesting painting with a nice view of the a-frame huts. What strikes me is that the rail fences are still in place and haven t been used for firewood.
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 3 7:01 AM
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      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "raynersteve" <steverayner@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Sir;
      >
      > I'd like to thank the American Revolution Center and yourself for the /magnificent/ presentation; especially for presenting Della Gatta's "Paoli." To me, it is a piece that captures and defines in graphic detail so much of the long struggle for American Independence.
      >
      > I had no trouble accessing the time-line or the Paoli painting.
      >
      > Thank you again for your excellent presentation.
      >
      > Sincerely,
      >
      > Steve Rayner

      Interesting painting with a nice view of the a-frame huts.

      What strikes me is that the rail fences are still in place and haven't been used for firewood. Presumably the artist was not an eye witness but his patron was. I wonder if the survival of the fences is documented elsewhere or just artistic license.

      Mike Manning
    • Jack Sherry
      Mike, Is it possible that the troops were under orders to not touch the fences? How long were Wayne s forces going to be at Paoli? Perhaps they did not have
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 3 8:11 AM
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        Mike,

        Is it possible that the troops were under orders to not touch the fences? How long were Wayne's forces going to be at Paoli? Perhaps they did not have the time to pull down the fences.

        Jack Sherry
        www.visitwithBenFranklin.com






        What strikes me is that the rail fences are still in place and haven't been used for firewood. Presumably the artist was not an eye witness but his patron was. I wonder if the survival of the fences is documented elsewhere or just artistic license.

        Mike Manning







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gregory Theberge
        Whether or not the rail fences were actually there is one issue, but just why would the 40th be tearing down the fences for firewood in the heat of battle?
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 3 10:27 AM
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          Whether or not the rail fences were actually there is one issue, but just why would the 40th be tearing down the fences for firewood in the heat of battle?  This was not the scene of any type of permanent encampment (nor was is routine to rip down fences for firewood in either case). The artist was not there by the way and those are wigwams in the Paoli scene.
          There's a tremendous amount of information in those two paintings if anyone is interested.

          Greg

          What strikes me is that the rail fences are still in place and haven't been used for firewood. Presumably the artist was not an eye witness but his patron was. I wonder if the survival of the fences is documented elsewhere or just artistic license.

          Mike Manning





                                   

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        • gregsandor
          Just below dead center: is that an American volley from the woods?
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 3 10:46 AM
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            Just below dead center: is that an American volley from the woods?
          • bdodgeweaver
            ... Dear Mike: Tom McGuire s BATTLE OF PAOLI (Stackpole Books, 2000), p. 110 discusses the fences. A footnote discusses their probable construction (post and
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 3 11:28 AM
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              In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "mbrmanning2" <michael.manning@...> wrote:
              >
              >What strikes me is that the rail fences are still in place and haven't been used for firewood. Presumably the artist was not an eye witness but his patron was. I wonder if the survival of the fences is documented elsewhere or just artistic license.
              >
              > Mike Manning
              >
              Dear Mike: Tom McGuire's BATTLE OF PAOLI (Stackpole Books, 2000), p. 110 discusses the fences. A footnote discusses their probable construction (post and rail is shown in both the della gatta paintings and a period painting of the attack on Allen McLane, for Eastern Pennsylvania), and Colonel Thomas Hartley, who was present during the engagement, testifies about the fences at the battlefield. His testimony is printed in an appendix to McGuire's book, pp. 203-204.

              Tom McGuire's books are well worth the time and money - Thad Weaver, German Rt.
            • Neal Hurst
              Hello All In McGuires book, like Mr. Weaver said, he think that the fences are what allowed for the massacre to happen since they ended up being trapped. Neal
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 3 12:59 PM
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                Hello All

                In McGuires book, like Mr. Weaver said, he think that the fences are what allowed for the massacre to happen since they ended up being trapped.

                Neal



                ________________________________
                From: bdodgeweaver <BDodgeWeaver@...>
                To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sat, July 3, 2010 2:28:09 PM
                Subject: [Revlist] Re: Paoli Painting (was Della Gatta and other stuff)


                In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "mbrmanning2" <michael.manning@...> wrote:
                >
                >What strikes me is that the rail fences are still in place and haven't been used for firewood. Presumably the artist was not an eye witness but his patron was. I wonder if the survival of the fences is documented elsewhere or just artistic license.
                >
                > Mike Manning
                >
                Dear Mike: Tom McGuire's BATTLE OF PAOLI (Stackpole Books, 2000), p. 110 discusses the fences. A footnote discusses their probable construction (post and rail is shown in both the della gatta paintings and a period painting of the attack on Allen McLane, for Eastern Pennsylvania), and Colonel Thomas Hartley, who was present during the engagement, testifies about the fences at the battlefield. His testimony is printed in an appendix to McGuire's book, pp. 203-204.

                Tom McGuire's books are well worth the time and money - Thad Weaver, German Rt.







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Todd Post
                Jack, Quite possibly. From the 2d Virginia Regiment s orderly book in 1775: The Burning of Pales Fences or any other property It is absolutely forbidden.
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 3 1:26 PM
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                  Jack,

                  Quite possibly. From the 2d Virginia Regiment's orderly book in 1775: "The Burning of Pales Fences or any other property It is absolutely forbidden." However I think your other guess is plausible as well.

                  Cheers,
                  Todd

                  On Jul 3, 2010, at 11:11 AM, Jack Sherry wrote:

                  > Mike,
                  >
                  > Is it possible that the troops were under orders to not touch the fences? How long were Wayne's forces going to be at Paoli? Perhaps they did not have the time to pull down the fences.
                  >
                  > Jack Sherry
                  > www.visitwithBenFranklin.com
                  >
                  >> What strikes me is that the rail fences are still in place and haven't been used for firewood. Presumably the artist was not an eye witness but his patron was. I wonder if the survival of the fences is documented elsewhere or just artistic license.
                  >>
                  >> Mike Manning
                • Douglas
                  A fascinating painting if at all accurate. It appears to be a chaotic period near the end of the battle, but the majority of troops are operating in battle
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 3 1:55 PM
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                    A fascinating painting if at all accurate. It appears to be a chaotic period near the end of the battle, but the majority of troops are operating in "battle lines" of 4 to 7 men. The 2 man bayonet charge by the colonials in the lower center is particularly striking.

                    And they keep telling us that clubing you musket, or holding it high with the butt upward was a sign of surrender, and that the Brits were quite offended when the colonials did this and continued fighting. But the redcoat in the foreground, right of center does not appear to be surrendering to the colonials laying at his feet!

                    SherpaDoug
                  • gregsandor
                    I wonder if those were messes, as the guys were asleep at the start of the attack it seems reasonable that they d fight alongside those in their immediate
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jul 3 2:09 PM
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                      I wonder if those were messes, as the guys were asleep at the start of the attack it seems reasonable that they'd fight alongside those in their immediate area.


                      http://www.ushistory.org/paoli/

                      The Enemy last Night at twelve o'clock attacked ... Our Men just raised from Sleep, moved disorderly — Confusion followed ... The Carnage was very great ... this is a bloody Month.
                      Col. Thomas Hartley, 1st PA Regiment


                      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas" <sherpadoug@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > A fascinating painting if at all accurate. It appears to be a chaotic period near the end of the battle, but the majority of troops are operating in "battle lines" of 4 to 7 men. The 2 man bayonet charge by the colonials in the lower center is particularly striking.
                      >
                      > And they keep telling us that clubing you musket, or holding it high with the butt upward was a sign of surrender, and that the Brits were quite offended when the colonials did this and continued fighting. But the redcoat in the foreground, right of center does not appear to be surrendering to the colonials laying at his feet!
                      >
                      > SherpaDoug
                      >
                    • Todd Post
                      Anyone wanting detailed background on the painting in question should really read Steve Gilbert s An Analysis of the Xavier della Gatta Paintings of the
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jul 3 5:46 PM
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                        Anyone wanting detailed background on the painting in question should really read Steve Gilbert's "An Analysis of the Xavier della Gatta Paintings of the Battles of Paoli and Germantown, 1777" in "Military Collector and Historian", which is the quarterly journal of the Company of Military Historians. Part I was published in Volume 46, number 3 and Part II was published in Volume 47, Number 4.

                        Cheers,
                        Todd Post
                        2d Virginia Regiment
                        www.secondvirginia.org

                        "The heroism and gallantry of the second Virginia regiment I cannot help particularly mentioning; they would do honour to any country in the world. It is universally believed they behaved the best of any troops in the field."
                        -- Virginia Gazette, October 17, 1777

                        facebook.com/SecondVirginia
                        twitter.com/SecondVirginia
                        youtube.com/2dVirginiaRegiment
                        flickr.com/photos/SecondVirginia
                      • ebolton123
                        Greg, Your right. I read, (and of course I can t find it now) one of Washintons orders specifically instructing the men NOT to bother fences, and the like.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jul 3 6:47 PM
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                          Greg,
                          Your right. I read, (and of course I can't find it now) one of Washintons orders specifically instructing the men NOT to bother fences, and the like. He feared ticking off the few supporters he had amongst the populace.
                          Another possible reason could be security. If I am a commander (at any rank) and my troops are in a temporary camp situation as the Americans were at Paoli, stout rail fences can act as good as Abatis. Though it helps to have an idea of your front as to not back yourself up and be hemmed in by those very fences.
                          Cheers,
                          Bob Bolton
                          Pa. Associators




                          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Theberge <gstheberge@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Whether or not the rail fences were actually there is one issue, but just why would the 40th be tearing down the fences for firewood in the heat of battle?  This was not the scene of any type of permanent encampment (nor was is routine to rip down fences for firewood in either case). The artist was not there by the way and those are wigwams in the Paoli scene.
                          > There's a tremendous amount of information in those two paintings if anyone is interested.
                          >
                          > Greg
                          >
                          > What strikes me is that the rail fences are still in place and haven't been used for firewood. Presumably the artist was not an eye witness but his patron was. I wonder if the survival of the fences is documented elsewhere or just artistic license.
                          >
                          > Mike Manning
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >                          
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
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                          >
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                        • mbrmanning2
                          I m reminded of a comment from my Grade 11 history teacher - if you read a rule, regulation or law it means somebody must have been doing something often
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jul 4 5:50 AM
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                            I'm reminded of a comment from my Grade 11 history teacher - if you read a rule, regulation or law it means somebody must have been doing something often enough that they had to make a rule against it.

                            There are a lot of incidents in history of soldiers taking the easy way out when collecting firewood, even if against orders or against their long-term best interest.

                            After the Battle of Crylser's Farm, in 1813, Crysler complained that U.S. troops had burned all his rail fences as firewood. There was a forest just 500 yards away but it's always easier to burn what's at hand. As at Paoli - they had only stopped the night.

                            The night before the Battle of Waterloo in 1815 the King's German Legion actually burned the barn doors of La Haye Sainte, making defending the farm complex a lot more difficult the next day.

                            I agree with Bob - rail fences provide a psychological boost, even if they don't actually provide much cover for troops in line.

                            The difference may very well be that the farmer professed Whiggish sentiments, at least while there were troops camping on his property.

                            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Todd Post <todd.post2@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Jack,
                            >
                            > Quite possibly. From the 2d Virginia Regiment's orderly book in 1775: "The Burning of Pales Fences or any other property It is absolutely forbidden." However I think your other guess is plausible as well.
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            > Todd
                            >
                            > On Jul 3, 2010, at 11:11 AM, Jack Sherry wrote:
                            >
                            > > Mike,
                            > >
                            > > Is it possible that the troops were under orders to not touch the fences? How long were Wayne's forces going to be at Paoli? Perhaps they did not have the time to pull down the fences.
                            > >
                            > > Jack Sherry
                            > > www.visitwithBenFranklin.com
                            > >
                            > >> What strikes me is that the rail fences are still in place and haven't been used for firewood. Presumably the artist was not an eye witness but his patron was. I wonder if the survival of the fences is documented elsewhere or just artistic license.
                            > >>
                            > >> Mike Manning
                            >
                          • jackfortune
                            I would second that heartily. Would it be cheeky to ask if you have any plans to add the Paoli image s mate, the painting of Germantown (of which you show a
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jul 4 6:28 AM
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                              I would second that heartily.

                              Would it be cheeky to ask if you have any plans to add the Paoli image's mate, the painting of Germantown (of which you show a tantalising fragment on your home page)?

                              This side of the ocean we are restricted to poor quality, low res images. It would be a great boon to see the Germantown picture in as great a detail as that Paoli.

                              Just a thought..

                              JF
                            • Gregory Theberge
                              Guys, I have a ton of close ups of Della Gatta. Will add them tomorrow if I get a chance. Off to celebrate the 4th with family. Hope you have a great holiday.
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jul 4 6:31 AM
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                                Guys, I have a ton of close ups of Della Gatta. Will add them tomorrow if I get a chance. Off to celebrate the 4th with family. Hope you have a great holiday.  Greg

                                --- On Sun, 7/4/10, jackfortune <jackfortune@...> wrote:

                                From: jackfortune <jackfortune@...>
                                Subject: [Revlist] Re: Della Gatta and other stuff
                                To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sunday, July 4, 2010, 9:28 AM
















                                 











                                I would second that heartily.



                                Would it be cheeky to ask if you have any plans to add the Paoli image's mate, the painting of Germantown (of which you show a tantalising fragment on your home page)?



                                This side of the ocean we are restricted to poor quality, low res images. It would be a great boon to see the Germantown picture in as great a detail as that Paoli.



                                Just a thought..



                                JF






























                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • sean Joyce
                                None of the men were asleep at the start of the attack. The camp had been warned by the alert picket posts and the main body was formed up to move off when the
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 4 8:36 PM
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                                  None of the men were asleep at the start of the attack. The camp had been warned by
                                  the alert picket posts and the main body was formed up to move off when the Brit LI Batt
                                  charged into the encampment. Tired and confused no doubt, but not asleep. As Todd
                                  said in his post, read Gilberts papers on the paintings if you can get a copy. Good stuff!
                                  Sean
                                  22nd LI

                                  --- On Sat, 7/3/10, gregsandor <gregsandor@...> wrote:


                                  From: gregsandor <gregsandor@...>
                                  Subject: [Revlist] Re: Paoli Painting (was Della Gatta and other stuff)
                                  To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Saturday, July 3, 2010, 5:09 PM


                                   



                                  I wonder if those were messes, as the guys were asleep at the start of the attack it seems reasonable that they'd fight alongside those in their immediate area.

                                  http://www.ushistory.org/paoli/

                                  The Enemy last Night at twelve o'clock attacked ... Our Men just raised from Sleep, moved disorderly — Confusion followed ... The Carnage was very great ... this is a bloody Month.
                                  Col. Thomas Hartley, 1st PA Regiment

                                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas" <sherpadoug@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > A fascinating painting if at all accurate. It appears to be a chaotic period near the end of the battle, but the majority of troops are operating in "battle lines" of 4 to 7 men. The 2 man bayonet charge by the colonials in the lower center is particularly striking.
                                  >
                                  > And they keep telling us that clubing you musket, or holding it high with the butt upward was a sign of surrender, and that the Brits were quite offended when the colonials did this and continued fighting. But the redcoat in the foreground, right of center does not appear to be surrendering to the colonials laying at his feet!
                                  >
                                  > SherpaDoug
                                  >











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