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Haversacks: Did they have them?

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  • John
    Well, as frustrating as this conversation has been, some good information HAS come out. BUT, while British equipment returns show enough haversacks issued to
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 27, 2010
      Well, as frustrating as this conversation has been, some good information HAS come out. BUT, while British equipment returns show enough haversacks issued to complete all their soldiers (on campaign), American returns and other accounts indicate periodic shortages, so much so that it was often the norm for Continental troops NOT to have haversacks. Next time you go out, try carrying your food in your knapsack or in a camp kettle (I have, it's an interesting exercise).

      The following is excerpted from a monograph I wrote for the Sapper and Miners, titled:

      "'Six of our regt lived together …': Mess Groups, Carrying Food … (and a Little Bit of Tongue)in the Armies of the Revolution"
      (see below)

      Cheers,

      John Rees

      Carrying Food. Optimally, soldiers were issued haversacks (a coarse linen bag) to carry rations on the march. The haversack was slung it over a man's right shoulder, hanging under his left arm. One surviving British example measures 13 1/2 inches high by 16 3/4 inches wide, with a two-inch linen strap (for photographs see, http://www.najecki.com/repro/misc/Nannos/HaversackBody.html ). On at least one occasion Continental soldiers were directed to construct their own. "College Camp [ Williamsburg , Virginia ] October the 11th. 1775 ... [A] Captain of Each Company is to Apply to the Quartermaster for Linnen Cloth to make a habersack for Each Soldier one yard of Oznabrigs is Supposed to be Sufficient for the purpose of making the sack ... Each Soldier to make his own sack ... as near one General Size & patern as Possible. Thread Sufficient for the purpose must be Drawn ..." (Haversacks could be multi-purposed. In November 1757 British troops at Annapolis, Nova Scotia, went to an apple orchard and "filled bags, haversacks, baskets and even their pockets with fruit." When in Pennsylvania , soldiers of the 64th Regiment were ordered to convey a ration issue to camp: "Ashtown Camp 14th September 1777 ... The Men are to go with their Haversacks for flour to Hills Milles.")28

      Bennett Cuthbertson noted in his 1768 military treatise, "a Soldier cannot conveniently get through the Duties of a Campaign, without a Haversack of strong, coarse, grey linen (which is always issued as part of the Camp-equipage) to carry his bread and provisions on a March..." With that said, Continental soldiers were often without haversacks due to supply shortfalls. For example, an "Abstract of the Arms & Accoutrements deliverd out at Philadelphia to the Continental Troops by the Commissary Genl. of Military Stores" for the period from 1 April 1777 to the beginning of August the same year show only 3,135 haversacks issued as opposed to 13,297 knapsacks. This at a time when the army under Gen. George Washington's immediate command numbered approximately 14,000, leaving at least three quarters of the troops without haversacks.29

      Whether or not haversacks were available, soldiers transported food other ways, too. Portions of a mess squad's food were occasionally carried in a camp kettle, each man taking his turn with the burden. Connecticut soldier Joseph Martin wrote of this occurring autumn 1777, when his regiment halted in Burlington, New Jersey , "where we procured some carrion beef, for it was not better. We cooked it and ate some, and carried the remainder away with us. We had always, in the army, to carry our cooking utensils in our hands by turns, and at this time, as we were not overburthened by provisions, our mess had put ours into our kettle, it not being very heavy, as it was made of plated iron."30

      Other items were specifically intended to hold food or converted to that purpose. In May 1779, the colonel of the 1st Pennsylvania Regiment directed his officers that the "Compys will have the [new] Knapsacks delivered, that the men may appear with their Cloathing in them this afternoon. The old Knapsacks the men have in their Possession, they will keep to carry their Provisions in them." In February 1776 a "new invented Knapsack and Haversack" was advertised to Maryland. The manufacturer touted it as already "adopted by the American regulars of Pennsylvania, New Jersey & Virginia ..." The truth of that assertion is open to doubt, but the item is interesting in that it was a dual purpose knapsack intended to carry a soldier's clothing as well as food.31

      Soldiers also packed food in their primary knapsacks along with clothing and other necessaries. Orders for Jackson 's Additional Regiment, " Boston Oct 4. 1777 The Regiment to hold themselves in readiness to embark ... it is expected that every Non Commissioned Officer & Soldier, will have his Cloathing & Necessaries put up in their Knapsacks this afternoon, together with two days provisions Cook'd ..." The same month a private with General Horatio Gates' Northern Army noted, "at night we drew rations and were notified to be ready early on the next Morn' to march to Stillwater, so we boiled our Meet and had our provisions all in our Paiks ready ... early in the Morn' [we] were paraded and marched off ..." Joseph Martin wrote of returning to the Valley Forge camp in early spring of 1778, carrying "two or three days' rations in my knapsack," and in July 1779 the troops on Sullivan's Expedition were issued rations and ordered "to take [them] in their packs ..."32

      Using equipment unsuited for carrying food increased the troops' burden considerably, and without adequate containers to carry provisions they were easily spoiled or lost, thus wasting the extraordinary effort expended to obtain it. Unfortunately, in the Continental Army haversacks, canteens, and camp kettles had a high rate of attrition. Prior to each campaign large supplies of each were needed to complete the men adequately, but often sufficient quantities had not been received even after the army marched. This remained true until the war's end. While preparing to take the field in 1782, Quartermaster General Timothy Pickering informed General Washington that nothing more was needed "except knapsacks, canteens & camp kettles." He particularly mentioned canteens as "an article so frequently lost & broken."33

      Following a time-honored tradition soldiers were forced to improvise and suffer the inconvenience. Orders for the attack on the British at Germantown (4 October 1777) directed soldiers to "take their provision in their habersacks [sic], such as have not habersacks are to take their provision in their pockets, or in such manner as may be most convenient." Writing after the battle, Timothy Pickering, then Washington's adjutant general, noted that "Haversacks ... are exceedingly wanted for carrying the men's provisions. In the last action the men having no other way tied their provisions up in their blankets and shirts some of which were left in consequence thereof." (In a similar manner Sgt. Jeremiah Greenman, travelling to Valley Forge in 1778, "toock sum provision in a hankerchife.") When the New Jersey Brigade had a large influx of drafted men in June 1778, their commander wrote, "There is about 450 of the new Leveys come in. I do not know what we shall do for want of Haversacks, should we March, to carry their Provisions. Coll. Cox has given orders to the first and 2d Regts. to get as much cloath from his agent here as will make them [haversacks] but he says there is no more therefore the 3d and 4th [Regiments] must be served from camp."34

      Every locale saw shortages. In May 1778 a two-thousand man expedition was sent against British held St. Augustine, East Florida. From "Camp at Fort Howe on Alatamaha" River, Georgia, an American officer complained to William Moultrie, "you have been much too parsimonious in your fitting us out for this expedition ... what is more inconvenient than to have only one camp-kettle to ten, twelve or fifteen men? and in this hot climate to have one small canteen to six or eight men? we think no expense too great to procure men, but we do not think after we have got them, that we ought to go to the expense of preserving their health ... the Gen. requested me to desire you to send round in a boat ... 500 canteens, 100 camp-kettles, and 35 or 40 tents ..."35

      Units earmarked for John Sullivan's 1779 Indian Expedition experienced similar difficulties. General Edward Hand wrote in March, from Minisink on the New York/New Jersey frontier, that he "wish[ed] to know where we may be supplied with ... Camp Kettles & Canteens all which we are destitute of ..." (The units under his command were the 2nd New York Regiment, German Regiment, Spencer's Additional Regiment, Armand's Legion Infantry, and Captain Schott's Independent Company.) A series of receipts made early in 1779 show severe shortfalls in numbers of canteens and knapsacks needed by the New Jersey Brigade for the year's campaign. On 29 January, 301 knapsacks and 175 canteens were issued to the 2d New Jersey Regiment; four months later on 25 May an additional 50 knapsacks, 229 canteens, and 35 camp kettles were issued to the same unit. (Thirty five kettles would supply 210 common soldiers; during this period the overall strength of the 2d New Jersey ranged from 431 non-commissioned officers and rank and file in January, to 356 three months later.) In April, when the entire Jersey Brigade numbered 1,011 men, "86 Canteens 581 Knapsacks ... [and] five Hund. Canteen Straps" were issued to supply a deficit. Haversacks were also wanted. General orders at Wyoming, 27 July 1779, stipulated that "The Comdg. officers of regiments & corps will forthwith ... furnish their troops with knapsacks, haversacks and canteens complete." On 23 August 1779, after the troops under Sullivan had already marched great distances in difficult country, General Sullivan, at Tioga, Pennsylvania, ordered "The different Corps ... immediately to call on the Qr.Mr Genl For ... Knapsacks, haversacks, & Canteens."36 A 21 August 1779 return for Sullivan's army still shows shortages of much-needed food-related equipment, including knapsacks and haversacks (see below):37

      "A General Return of Stores in The Quarter Master General's Department with the Army under the Command of ... Major General John Sullivan on the Western Expedition Fort Sullivan, Tioga," 21 August 1779.
      Camp
      Kettles Bowls
      with Camp Iron and
      Covers Kettles Cups Dishes Canteens
      Maxwell's Brigade 184 26 80 957
      Poor's Brigade 213 19 869
      Hand's Brigade 109 555
      Proctor's Artillery 13 39 180

      Knapsacks Haversacks
      Maxwell's Brigade 1044 765
      Poor's Brigade 851 535
      Hand's Brigade 625 526
      Proctor's Artillery 100

      Unit strength August 1779:
      Present Officers N.C.O.'s and Privates
      Fit for Duty and Staff Present
      Maxwell's Brigade 1225 83 1142
      (1st, 2d, 3d New Jersey Regiments, and Spencer's Additional Regiment)
      Poor's Brigade 1049 85 964
      (1st, 2d, 3d New Hampshire Regiments, 2d New York Regiment)
      Hand's Brigade 800 66 754
      (4th and 11th Pennsylvania Regiments, German Regiment, Morgan's Rifle Corps, Schott's Rifle Corps)
      Procter's Artillery 147 16 131
      (4th Battalion, Continental Artillery)

      In another example, in June 1778, just before the Monmouth Campaign, the 1st Pennsylvania Brigade had 840 non-commissioned officers, and rank and file, but only 505 knapsacks and 24 haversacks. Returns for other Continental Army units show severe shortages of haversacks and knapsacks as well. (See endnote for equipment returns for several brigades and a single Massachusetts company, spanning the period from 1778 to 1782.)38
    • mike
      ... John, Thanks for posting that piece. Quite interesting. Some of those returns and comments are ones I have seen and prompted my impression. Following is a
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 27, 2010
        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John" <ju_rees@...> wrote:
        >
        > Well, as frustrating as this conversation has been, some good information HAS come out. BUT, while British equipment returns show enough haversacks issued to complete all their soldiers (on campaign), American returns and other accounts indicate periodic shortages, so much so that it was often the norm for Continental troops NOT to have haversacks. Next time you go out, try carrying your food in your knapsack or in a camp kettle (I have, it's an interesting exercise).
        >

        John,

        Thanks for posting that piece. Quite interesting. Some of those returns and comments are ones I have seen and prompted my impression. Following is a quote from Burgoyne's "State of the Expedition from Canada ..." (available from Don Hagist, by the way) talking about men carrying their provisions:

        "Those who are acquainted with the capricious working of the tempers of men, will not wonder at the difficulty of prevailing upon a common soldier in any exigency to husband his provisions. In a settled camp, the young soldier has very short fare on the fourth day after delivery: but upon a march in bad weather and bad roads, when the weary foot slips back at every step, and a general curse is provoked at the weight that causes the retardment, he must be a patient veteran, and of much experience in scarcity, who is not tempted to throw the whole contents of the haversack into the mire. He feels the present incumbrance grievous--Want is a day remote.--'Let the General find a supply: it is the King's cause and the General's interest--he will never let the soldier be starved.'
        "This is common reasoning in the ranks. I state it for those who have not seen fatiguing service, and may have a judgment to form upon it."

        Each day's provisions, if a reasonable quantity, would amount to two to three pounds and a soldier often received four days at a time so, do the math--upwards of twelve pounds hanging off that narrow strap. If you get tired carrying a firelock that weighs less than that ...?

        Mike Barbieri
        Whitcomb's Corps
      • bolton1812
        John, As usual, you are a wealth of information...really cool stuff. BTW, I accidentally deleted your e-mail regaring the food question (I don t dare mention
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 27, 2010
          John,
          As usual, you are a wealth of information...really cool stuff.
          BTW, I accidentally deleted your e-mail regaring the food question (I don't dare mention the timeperiod or it may be the next nail on my cross)...but the answer is no. Strangely no mention of food at all.
          Cheers,
          Bob

          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John" <ju_rees@...> wrote:
          >
          > Well, as frustrating as this conversation has been, some good information HAS come out. BUT, while British equipment returns show enough haversacks issued to complete all their soldiers (on campaign), American returns and other accounts indicate periodic shortages, so much so that it was often the norm for Continental troops NOT to have haversacks. Next time you go out, try carrying your food in your knapsack or in a camp kettle (I have, it's an interesting exercise).
          >
          > The following is excerpted from a monograph I wrote for the Sapper and Miners, titled:
          >
          > "'Six of our regt lived together …': Mess Groups, Carrying Food … (and a Little Bit of Tongue)in the Armies of the Revolution"
          > (see below)
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > John Rees
          >
          > Carrying Food. Optimally, soldiers were issued haversacks (a coarse linen bag) to carry rations on the march. The haversack was slung it over a man's right shoulder, hanging under his left arm. One surviving British example measures 13 1/2 inches high by 16 3/4 inches wide, with a two-inch linen strap (for photographs see, http://www.najecki.com/repro/misc/Nannos/HaversackBody.html ). On at least one occasion Continental soldiers were directed to construct their own. "College Camp [ Williamsburg , Virginia ] October the 11th. 1775 ... [A] Captain of Each Company is to Apply to the Quartermaster for Linnen Cloth to make a habersack for Each Soldier one yard of Oznabrigs is Supposed to be Sufficient for the purpose of making the sack ... Each Soldier to make his own sack ... as near one General Size & patern as Possible. Thread Sufficient for the purpose must be Drawn ..." (Haversacks could be multi-purposed. In November 1757 British troops at Annapolis, Nova Scotia, went to an apple orchard and "filled bags, haversacks, baskets and even their pockets with fruit." When in Pennsylvania , soldiers of the 64th Regiment were ordered to convey a ration issue to camp: "Ashtown Camp 14th September 1777 ... The Men are to go with their Haversacks for flour to Hills Milles.")28
          >
          > Bennett Cuthbertson noted in his 1768 military treatise, "a Soldier cannot conveniently get through the Duties of a Campaign, without a Haversack of strong, coarse, grey linen (which is always issued as part of the Camp-equipage) to carry his bread and provisions on a March..." With that said, Continental soldiers were often without haversacks due to supply shortfalls. For example, an "Abstract of the Arms & Accoutrements deliverd out at Philadelphia to the Continental Troops by the Commissary Genl. of Military Stores" for the period from 1 April 1777 to the beginning of August the same year show only 3,135 haversacks issued as opposed to 13,297 knapsacks. This at a time when the army under Gen. George Washington's immediate command numbered approximately 14,000, leaving at least three quarters of the troops without haversacks.29
          >
          > Whether or not haversacks were available, soldiers transported food other ways, too. Portions of a mess squad's food were occasionally carried in a camp kettle, each man taking his turn with the burden. Connecticut soldier Joseph Martin wrote of this occurring autumn 1777, when his regiment halted in Burlington, New Jersey , "where we procured some carrion beef, for it was not better. We cooked it and ate some, and carried the remainder away with us. We had always, in the army, to carry our cooking utensils in our hands by turns, and at this time, as we were not overburthened by provisions, our mess had put ours into our kettle, it not being very heavy, as it was made of plated iron."30
          >
          > Other items were specifically intended to hold food or converted to that purpose. In May 1779, the colonel of the 1st Pennsylvania Regiment directed his officers that the "Compys will have the [new] Knapsacks delivered, that the men may appear with their Cloathing in them this afternoon. The old Knapsacks the men have in their Possession, they will keep to carry their Provisions in them." In February 1776 a "new invented Knapsack and Haversack" was advertised to Maryland. The manufacturer touted it as already "adopted by the American regulars of Pennsylvania, New Jersey & Virginia ..." The truth of that assertion is open to doubt, but the item is interesting in that it was a dual purpose knapsack intended to carry a soldier's clothing as well as food.31
          >
          > Soldiers also packed food in their primary knapsacks along with clothing and other necessaries. Orders for Jackson 's Additional Regiment, " Boston Oct 4. 1777 The Regiment to hold themselves in readiness to embark ... it is expected that every Non Commissioned Officer & Soldier, will have his Cloathing & Necessaries put up in their Knapsacks this afternoon, together with two days provisions Cook'd ..." The same month a private with General Horatio Gates' Northern Army noted, "at night we drew rations and were notified to be ready early on the next Morn' to march to Stillwater, so we boiled our Meet and had our provisions all in our Paiks ready ... early in the Morn' [we] were paraded and marched off ..." Joseph Martin wrote of returning to the Valley Forge camp in early spring of 1778, carrying "two or three days' rations in my knapsack," and in July 1779 the troops on Sullivan's Expedition were issued rations and ordered "to take [them] in their packs ..."32
          >
          > Using equipment unsuited for carrying food increased the troops' burden considerably, and without adequate containers to carry provisions they were easily spoiled or lost, thus wasting the extraordinary effort expended to obtain it. Unfortunately, in the Continental Army haversacks, canteens, and camp kettles had a high rate of attrition. Prior to each campaign large supplies of each were needed to complete the men adequately, but often sufficient quantities had not been received even after the army marched. This remained true until the war's end. While preparing to take the field in 1782, Quartermaster General Timothy Pickering informed General Washington that nothing more was needed "except knapsacks, canteens & camp kettles." He particularly mentioned canteens as "an article so frequently lost & broken."33
          >
          > Following a time-honored tradition soldiers were forced to improvise and suffer the inconvenience. Orders for the attack on the British at Germantown (4 October 1777) directed soldiers to "take their provision in their habersacks [sic], such as have not habersacks are to take their provision in their pockets, or in such manner as may be most convenient." Writing after the battle, Timothy Pickering, then Washington's adjutant general, noted that "Haversacks ... are exceedingly wanted for carrying the men's provisions. In the last action the men having no other way tied their provisions up in their blankets and shirts some of which were left in consequence thereof." (In a similar manner Sgt. Jeremiah Greenman, travelling to Valley Forge in 1778, "toock sum provision in a hankerchife.") When the New Jersey Brigade had a large influx of drafted men in June 1778, their commander wrote, "There is about 450 of the new Leveys come in. I do not know what we shall do for want of Haversacks, should we March, to carry their Provisions. Coll. Cox has given orders to the first and 2d Regts. to get as much cloath from his agent here as will make them [haversacks] but he says there is no more therefore the 3d and 4th [Regiments] must be served from camp."34
          >
          > Every locale saw shortages. In May 1778 a two-thousand man expedition was sent against British held St. Augustine, East Florida. From "Camp at Fort Howe on Alatamaha" River, Georgia, an American officer complained to William Moultrie, "you have been much too parsimonious in your fitting us out for this expedition ... what is more inconvenient than to have only one camp-kettle to ten, twelve or fifteen men? and in this hot climate to have one small canteen to six or eight men? we think no expense too great to procure men, but we do not think after we have got them, that we ought to go to the expense of preserving their health ... the Gen. requested me to desire you to send round in a boat ... 500 canteens, 100 camp-kettles, and 35 or 40 tents ..."35
          >
          > Units earmarked for John Sullivan's 1779 Indian Expedition experienced similar difficulties. General Edward Hand wrote in March, from Minisink on the New York/New Jersey frontier, that he "wish[ed] to know where we may be supplied with ... Camp Kettles & Canteens all which we are destitute of ..." (The units under his command were the 2nd New York Regiment, German Regiment, Spencer's Additional Regiment, Armand's Legion Infantry, and Captain Schott's Independent Company.) A series of receipts made early in 1779 show severe shortfalls in numbers of canteens and knapsacks needed by the New Jersey Brigade for the year's campaign. On 29 January, 301 knapsacks and 175 canteens were issued to the 2d New Jersey Regiment; four months later on 25 May an additional 50 knapsacks, 229 canteens, and 35 camp kettles were issued to the same unit. (Thirty five kettles would supply 210 common soldiers; during this period the overall strength of the 2d New Jersey ranged from 431 non-commissioned officers and rank and file in January, to 356 three months later.) In April, when the entire Jersey Brigade numbered 1,011 men, "86 Canteens 581 Knapsacks ... [and] five Hund. Canteen Straps" were issued to supply a deficit. Haversacks were also wanted. General orders at Wyoming, 27 July 1779, stipulated that "The Comdg. officers of regiments & corps will forthwith ... furnish their troops with knapsacks, haversacks and canteens complete." On 23 August 1779, after the troops under Sullivan had already marched great distances in difficult country, General Sullivan, at Tioga, Pennsylvania, ordered "The different Corps ... immediately to call on the Qr.Mr Genl For ... Knapsacks, haversacks, & Canteens."36 A 21 August 1779 return for Sullivan's army still shows shortages of much-needed food-related equipment, including knapsacks and haversacks (see below):37
          >
          > "A General Return of Stores in The Quarter Master General's Department with the Army under the Command of ... Major General John Sullivan on the Western Expedition Fort Sullivan, Tioga," 21 August 1779.
          > Camp
          > Kettles Bowls
          > with Camp Iron and
          > Covers Kettles Cups Dishes Canteens
          > Maxwell's Brigade 184 26 80 957
          > Poor's Brigade 213 19 869
          > Hand's Brigade 109 555
          > Proctor's Artillery 13 39 180
          >
          > Knapsacks Haversacks
          > Maxwell's Brigade 1044 765
          > Poor's Brigade 851 535
          > Hand's Brigade 625 526
          > Proctor's Artillery 100
          >
          > Unit strength August 1779:
          > Present Officers N.C.O.'s and Privates
          > Fit for Duty and Staff Present
          > Maxwell's Brigade 1225 83 1142
          > (1st, 2d, 3d New Jersey Regiments, and Spencer's Additional Regiment)
          > Poor's Brigade 1049 85 964
          > (1st, 2d, 3d New Hampshire Regiments, 2d New York Regiment)
          > Hand's Brigade 800 66 754
          > (4th and 11th Pennsylvania Regiments, German Regiment, Morgan's Rifle Corps, Schott's Rifle Corps)
          > Procter's Artillery 147 16 131
          > (4th Battalion, Continental Artillery)
          >
          > In another example, in June 1778, just before the Monmouth Campaign, the 1st Pennsylvania Brigade had 840 non-commissioned officers, and rank and file, but only 505 knapsacks and 24 haversacks. Returns for other Continental Army units show severe shortages of haversacks and knapsacks as well. (See endnote for equipment returns for several brigades and a single Massachusetts company, spanning the period from 1778 to 1782.)38
          >
        • John
          Hi Mike, Curious, I saw your post right AFTER I posted my piece on haversack shortages. Sad to say, we think alike ... For anyone interested in more on Rev War
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 27, 2010
            Hi Mike,

            Curious, I saw your post right AFTER I posted my piece on haversack shortages. Sad to say, we think alike ...

            For anyone interested in more on Rev War soldiers' food, mess groups, food distribution, my article (see outline below) on the subject will be out in Military Collector & Historian later this year ... not too late to subscribe (for information see http://military-historians.org/ ) My piece on the Battle of Millstone, January 1777, should be out in the March issue.

            Cheers,

            John
            www.revwar75.com/library/rees


            "'To the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet.': Soldiers' Food and Cooking in the War for Independence"
            Subheadings:

            "The manner of messing and living together": Continental Army Mess Groups
            "Who shall have this?": Food Distribution
            "A hard game ...": Continental Army Cooks
            "On with Kittle, to make some hasty Pudding …": How a "Continental Devil" Broke His Fast
            1. The Army Ration and Cooking Methods.
            2. Eating Utensils.
            3. The Morning Meal.
            4. Other Likely Breakfast Fare.






            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <ottercreek@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John" <ju_rees@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Well, as frustrating as this conversation has been, some good information HAS come out. BUT, while British equipment returns show enough haversacks issued to complete all their soldiers (on campaign), American returns and other accounts indicate periodic shortages, so much so that it was often the norm for Continental troops NOT to have haversacks. Next time you go out, try carrying your food in your knapsack or in a camp kettle (I have, it's an interesting exercise).
            > >
            >
            > John,
            >
            > Thanks for posting that piece. Quite interesting. Some of those returns and comments are ones I have seen and prompted my impression. Following is a quote from Burgoyne's "State of the Expedition from Canada ..." (available from Don Hagist, by the way) talking about men carrying their provisions:
            >
            > "Those who are acquainted with the capricious working of the tempers of men, will not wonder at the difficulty of prevailing upon a common soldier in any exigency to husband his provisions. In a settled camp, the young soldier has very short fare on the fourth day after delivery: but upon a march in bad weather and bad roads, when the weary foot slips back at every step, and a general curse is provoked at the weight that causes the retardment, he must be a patient veteran, and of much experience in scarcity, who is not tempted to throw the whole contents of the haversack into the mire. He feels the present incumbrance grievous--Want is a day remote.--'Let the General find a supply: it is the King's cause and the General's interest--he will never let the soldier be starved.'
            > "This is common reasoning in the ranks. I state it for those who have not seen fatiguing service, and may have a judgment to form upon it."
            >
            > Each day's provisions, if a reasonable quantity, would amount to two to three pounds and a soldier often received four days at a time so, do the math--upwards of twelve pounds hanging off that narrow strap. If you get tired carrying a firelock that weighs less than that ...?
            >
            > Mike Barbieri
            > Whitcomb's Corps
            >
          • dkeas
            Did we come to any conclusions enough that we can definitely say what the primary resources tell us what is correct for haversacks and/or knapsacks? Don From:
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 27, 2010
              Did we come to any conclusions enough that we can definitely say what the
              primary resources tell us what is correct for haversacks and/or knapsacks?
              Don



              From: John <ju_rees@...>
              Reply-To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:43:47 -0000
              To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [Revlist] Re: Haversacks: Did they have them? Now Rev War food
              article ...






              Hi Mike,

              Curious, I saw your post right AFTER I posted my piece on haversack
              shortages. Sad to say, we think alike ...

              For anyone interested in more on Rev War soldiers' food, mess groups, food
              distribution, my article (see outline below) on the subject will be out in
              Military Collector & Historian later this year ... not too late to subscribe
              (for information see http://military-historians.org/ ) My piece on the
              Battle of Millstone, January 1777, should be out in the March issue.

              Cheers,

              John
              www.revwar75.com/library/rees

              "'To the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet.': Soldiers' Food and
              Cooking in the War for Independence"
              Subheadings:

              "The manner of messing and living together": Continental Army Mess Groups
              "Who shall have this?": Food Distribution
              "A hard game ...": Continental Army Cooks
              "On with Kittle, to make some hasty Pudding …": How a "Continental Devil"
              Broke His Fast
              1. The Army Ration and Cooking Methods.
              2. Eating Utensils.
              3. The Morning Meal.
              4. Other Likely Breakfast Fare.

              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> , "mike"
              <ottercreek@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> , "John"
              <ju_rees@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Well, as frustrating as this conversation has been, some good information
              HAS come out. BUT, while British equipment returns show enough haversacks issued
              to complete all their soldiers (on campaign), American returns and other
              accounts indicate periodic shortages, so much so that it was often the norm for
              Continental troops NOT to have haversacks. Next time you go out, try carrying
              your food in your knapsack or in a camp kettle (I have, it's an interesting
              exercise).
              > >
              >
              > John,
              >
              > Thanks for posting that piece. Quite interesting. Some of those returns and
              comments are ones I have seen and prompted my impression. Following is a quote
              from Burgoyne's "State of the Expedition from Canada ..." (available from Don
              Hagist, by the way) talking about men carrying their provisions:
              >
              > "Those who are acquainted with the capricious working of the tempers of
              men, will not wonder at the difficulty of prevailing upon a common soldier in
              any exigency to husband his provisions. In a settled camp, the young soldier has
              very short fare on the fourth day after delivery: but upon a march in bad
              weather and bad roads, when the weary foot slips back at every step, and a
              general curse is provoked at the weight that causes the retardment, he must be a
              patient veteran, and of much experience in scarcity, who is not tempted to throw
              the whole contents of the haversack into the mire. He feels the present
              incumbrance grievous--Want is a day remote.--'Let the General find a supply: it
              is the King's cause and the General's interest--he will never let the soldier be
              starved.'
              > "This is common reasoning in the ranks. I state it for those who have not
              seen fatiguing service, and may have a judgment to form upon it."
              >
              > Each day's provisions, if a reasonable quantity, would amount to two to three
              pounds and a soldier often received four days at a time so, do the math--upwards
              of twelve pounds hanging off that narrow strap. If you get tired carrying a
              firelock that weighs less than that ...?
              >
              > Mike Barbieri
              > Whitcomb's Corps
              >








              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John
              Painted knapsacks ... unpainted linen haversacks.
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 28, 2010
                Painted knapsacks ... unpainted linen haversacks.

                --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, dkeas <dkeas@...> wrote:
                >
                > Did we come to any conclusions enough that we can definitely say what the
                > primary resources tell us what is correct for haversacks and/or knapsacks?
                > Don
                >
                >
                >
                > From: John <ju_rees@...>
                > Reply-To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:43:47 -0000
                > To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: [Revlist] Re: Haversacks: Did they have them? Now Rev War food
                > article ...
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Mike,
                >
                > Curious, I saw your post right AFTER I posted my piece on haversack
                > shortages. Sad to say, we think alike ...
                >
                > For anyone interested in more on Rev War soldiers' food, mess groups, food
                > distribution, my article (see outline below) on the subject will be out in
                > Military Collector & Historian later this year ... not too late to subscribe
                > (for information see http://military-historians.org/ ) My piece on the
                > Battle of Millstone, January 1777, should be out in the March issue.
                >
                > Cheers,
                >
                > John
                > www.revwar75.com/library/rees
                >
                > "'To the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet.': Soldiers' Food and
                > Cooking in the War for Independence"
                > Subheadings:
                >
                > "The manner of messing and living together": Continental Army Mess Groups
                > "Who shall have this?": Food Distribution
                > "A hard game ...": Continental Army Cooks
                > "On with Kittle, to make some hasty Pudding …": How a "Continental Devil"
                > Broke His Fast
                > 1. The Army Ration and Cooking Methods.
                > 2. Eating Utensils.
                > 3. The Morning Meal.
                > 4. Other Likely Breakfast Fare.
                >
                > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> , "mike"
                > <ottercreek@> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> , "John"
                > <ju_rees@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Well, as frustrating as this conversation has been, some good information
                > HAS come out. BUT, while British equipment returns show enough haversacks issued
                > to complete all their soldiers (on campaign), American returns and other
                > accounts indicate periodic shortages, so much so that it was often the norm for
                > Continental troops NOT to have haversacks. Next time you go out, try carrying
                > your food in your knapsack or in a camp kettle (I have, it's an interesting
                > exercise).
                > > >
                > >
                > > John,
                > >
                > > Thanks for posting that piece. Quite interesting. Some of those returns and
                > comments are ones I have seen and prompted my impression. Following is a quote
                > from Burgoyne's "State of the Expedition from Canada ..." (available from Don
                > Hagist, by the way) talking about men carrying their provisions:
                > >
                > > "Those who are acquainted with the capricious working of the tempers of
                > men, will not wonder at the difficulty of prevailing upon a common soldier in
                > any exigency to husband his provisions. In a settled camp, the young soldier has
                > very short fare on the fourth day after delivery: but upon a march in bad
                > weather and bad roads, when the weary foot slips back at every step, and a
                > general curse is provoked at the weight that causes the retardment, he must be a
                > patient veteran, and of much experience in scarcity, who is not tempted to throw
                > the whole contents of the haversack into the mire. He feels the present
                > incumbrance grievous--Want is a day remote.--'Let the General find a supply: it
                > is the King's cause and the General's interest--he will never let the soldier be
                > starved.'
                > > "This is common reasoning in the ranks. I state it for those who have not
                > seen fatiguing service, and may have a judgment to form upon it."
                > >
                > > Each day's provisions, if a reasonable quantity, would amount to two to three
                > pounds and a soldier often received four days at a time so, do the math--upwards
                > of twelve pounds hanging off that narrow strap. If you get tired carrying a
                > firelock that weighs less than that ...?
                > >
                > > Mike Barbieri
                > > Whitcomb's Corps
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • dlwilbanks
                John, Thanks so much for the great posting. I know a number on the list are grumping at this series of postings about the H word. But I have more read more
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 28, 2010
                  John,

                  Thanks so much for the great posting. I know a number on the list are grumping at this series of postings about the "H" word. But I have more read more good detail regarding this topic, pro and con since the original request from Eric. Isn't that the purpose of a discussion board?

                  At your service,

                  Dan L. Wilbanks
                  Old Oregon Territory

                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John" <ju_rees@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Well, as frustrating as this conversation has been, some good information HAS come out. BUT, while British equipment returns show enough haversacks issued to complete all their soldiers (on campaign), American returns and other accounts indicate periodic shortages, so much so that it was often the norm for Continental troops NOT to have haversacks. Next time you go out, try carrying your food in your knapsack or in a camp kettle (I have, it's an interesting exercise).
                  >
                  > The following is excerpted from a monograph I wrote for the Sapper and Miners, titled:
                  >
                  > "'Six of our regt lived together …': Mess Groups, Carrying Food … (and a Little Bit of Tongue)in the Armies of the Revolution"
                  > (see below)
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  >
                  > John Rees
                  >
                  > Carrying Food. Optimally, soldiers were issued haversacks (a coarse linen bag) to carry rations on the march. The haversack was slung it over a man's right shoulder, hanging under his left arm. One surviving British example measures 13 1/2 inches high by 16 3/4 inches wide, with a two-inch linen strap (for photographs see, http://www.najecki.com/repro/misc/Nannos/HaversackBody.html ). On at least one occasion Continental soldiers were directed to construct their own. "College Camp [ Williamsburg , Virginia ] October the 11th. 1775 ... [A] Captain of Each Company is to Apply to the Quartermaster for Linnen Cloth to make a habersack for Each Soldier one yard of Oznabrigs is Supposed to be Sufficient for the purpose of making the sack ... Each Soldier to make his own sack ... as near one General Size & patern as Possible. Thread Sufficient for the purpose must be Drawn ..." (Haversacks could be multi-purposed. In November 1757 British troops at Annapolis, Nova Scotia, went to an apple orchard and "filled bags, haversacks, baskets and even their pockets with fruit." When in Pennsylvania , soldiers of the 64th Regiment were ordered to convey a ration issue to camp: "Ashtown Camp 14th September 1777 ... The Men are to go with their Haversacks for flour to Hills Milles.")28
                  >
                  > Bennett Cuthbertson noted in his 1768 military treatise, "a Soldier cannot conveniently get through the Duties of a Campaign, without a Haversack of strong, coarse, grey linen (which is always issued as part of the Camp-equipage) to carry his bread and provisions on a March..." With that said, Continental soldiers were often without haversacks due to supply shortfalls. For example, an "Abstract of the Arms & Accoutrements deliverd out at Philadelphia to the Continental Troops by the Commissary Genl. of Military Stores" for the period from 1 April 1777 to the beginning of August the same year show only 3,135 haversacks issued as opposed to 13,297 knapsacks. This at a time when the army under Gen. George Washington's immediate command numbered approximately 14,000, leaving at least three quarters of the troops without haversacks.29
                  >
                  > Whether or not haversacks were available, soldiers transported food other ways, too. Portions of a mess squad's food were occasionally carried in a camp kettle, each man taking his turn with the burden. Connecticut soldier Joseph Martin wrote of this occurring autumn 1777, when his regiment halted in Burlington, New Jersey , "where we procured some carrion beef, for it was not better. We cooked it and ate some, and carried the remainder away with us. We had always, in the army, to carry our cooking utensils in our hands by turns, and at this time, as we were not overburthened by provisions, our mess had put ours into our kettle, it not being very heavy, as it was made of plated iron."30
                  >
                  > Other items were specifically intended to hold food or converted to that purpose. In May 1779, the colonel of the 1st Pennsylvania Regiment directed his officers that the "Compys will have the [new] Knapsacks delivered, that the men may appear with their Cloathing in them this afternoon. The old Knapsacks the men have in their Possession, they will keep to carry their Provisions in them." In February 1776 a "new invented Knapsack and Haversack" was advertised to Maryland. The manufacturer touted it as already "adopted by the American regulars of Pennsylvania, New Jersey & Virginia ..." The truth of that assertion is open to doubt, but the item is interesting in that it was a dual purpose knapsack intended to carry a soldier's clothing as well as food.31
                  >
                  > Soldiers also packed food in their primary knapsacks along with clothing and other necessaries. Orders for Jackson 's Additional Regiment, " Boston Oct 4. 1777 The Regiment to hold themselves in readiness to embark ... it is expected that every Non Commissioned Officer & Soldier, will have his Cloathing & Necessaries put up in their Knapsacks this afternoon, together with two days provisions Cook'd ..." The same month a private with General Horatio Gates' Northern Army noted, "at night we drew rations and were notified to be ready early on the next Morn' to march to Stillwater, so we boiled our Meet and had our provisions all in our Paiks ready ... early in the Morn' [we] were paraded and marched off ..." Joseph Martin wrote of returning to the Valley Forge camp in early spring of 1778, carrying "two or three days' rations in my knapsack," and in July 1779 the troops on Sullivan's Expedition were issued rations and ordered "to take [them] in their packs ..."32
                  >
                  > Using equipment unsuited for carrying food increased the troops' burden considerably, and without adequate containers to carry provisions they were easily spoiled or lost, thus wasting the extraordinary effort expended to obtain it. Unfortunately, in the Continental Army haversacks, canteens, and camp kettles had a high rate of attrition. Prior to each campaign large supplies of each were needed to complete the men adequately, but often sufficient quantities had not been received even after the army marched. This remained true until the war's end. While preparing to take the field in 1782, Quartermaster General Timothy Pickering informed General Washington that nothing more was needed "except knapsacks, canteens & camp kettles." He particularly mentioned canteens as "an article so frequently lost & broken."33
                  >
                  > Following a time-honored tradition soldiers were forced to improvise and suffer the inconvenience. Orders for the attack on the British at Germantown (4 October 1777) directed soldiers to "take their provision in their habersacks [sic], such as have not habersacks are to take their provision in their pockets, or in such manner as may be most convenient." Writing after the battle, Timothy Pickering, then Washington's adjutant general, noted that "Haversacks ... are exceedingly wanted for carrying the men's provisions. In the last action the men having no other way tied their provisions up in their blankets and shirts some of which were left in consequence thereof." (In a similar manner Sgt. Jeremiah Greenman, travelling to Valley Forge in 1778, "toock sum provision in a hankerchife.") When the New Jersey Brigade had a large influx of drafted men in June 1778, their commander wrote, "There is about 450 of the new Leveys come in. I do not know what we shall do for want of Haversacks, should we March, to carry their Provisions. Coll. Cox has given orders to the first and 2d Regts. to get as much cloath from his agent here as will make them [haversacks] but he says there is no more therefore the 3d and 4th [Regiments] must be served from camp."34
                  >
                  > Every locale saw shortages. In May 1778 a two-thousand man expedition was sent against British held St. Augustine, East Florida. From "Camp at Fort Howe on Alatamaha" River, Georgia, an American officer complained to William Moultrie, "you have been much too parsimonious in your fitting us out for this expedition ... what is more inconvenient than to have only one camp-kettle to ten, twelve or fifteen men? and in this hot climate to have one small canteen to six or eight men? we think no expense too great to procure men, but we do not think after we have got them, that we ought to go to the expense of preserving their health ... the Gen. requested me to desire you to send round in a boat ... 500 canteens, 100 camp-kettles, and 35 or 40 tents ..."35
                  >
                  > Units earmarked for John Sullivan's 1779 Indian Expedition experienced similar difficulties. General Edward Hand wrote in March, from Minisink on the New York/New Jersey frontier, that he "wish[ed] to know where we may be supplied with ... Camp Kettles & Canteens all which we are destitute of ..." (The units under his command were the 2nd New York Regiment, German Regiment, Spencer's Additional Regiment, Armand's Legion Infantry, and Captain Schott's Independent Company.) A series of receipts made early in 1779 show severe shortfalls in numbers of canteens and knapsacks needed by the New Jersey Brigade for the year's campaign. On 29 January, 301 knapsacks and 175 canteens were issued to the 2d New Jersey Regiment; four months later on 25 May an additional 50 knapsacks, 229 canteens, and 35 camp kettles were issued to the same unit. (Thirty five kettles would supply 210 common soldiers; during this period the overall strength of the 2d New Jersey ranged from 431 non-commissioned officers and rank and file in January, to 356 three months later.) In April, when the entire Jersey Brigade numbered 1,011 men, "86 Canteens 581 Knapsacks ... [and] five Hund. Canteen Straps" were issued to supply a deficit. Haversacks were also wanted. General orders at Wyoming, 27 July 1779, stipulated that "The Comdg. officers of regiments & corps will forthwith ... furnish their troops with knapsacks, haversacks and canteens complete." On 23 August 1779, after the troops under Sullivan had already marched great distances in difficult country, General Sullivan, at Tioga, Pennsylvania, ordered "The different Corps ... immediately to call on the Qr.Mr Genl For ... Knapsacks, haversacks, & Canteens."36 A 21 August 1779 return for Sullivan's army still shows shortages of much-needed food-related equipment, including knapsacks and haversacks (see below):37
                  >
                  > "A General Return of Stores in The Quarter Master General's Department with the Army under the Command of ... Major General John Sullivan on the Western Expedition Fort Sullivan, Tioga," 21 August 1779.
                  > Camp
                  > Kettles Bowls
                  > with Camp Iron and
                  > Covers Kettles Cups Dishes Canteens
                  > Maxwell's Brigade 184 26 80 957
                  > Poor's Brigade 213 19 869
                  > Hand's Brigade 109 555
                  > Proctor's Artillery 13 39 180
                  >
                  > Knapsacks Haversacks
                  > Maxwell's Brigade 1044 765
                  > Poor's Brigade 851 535
                  > Hand's Brigade 625 526
                  > Proctor's Artillery 100
                  >
                  > Unit strength August 1779:
                  > Present Officers N.C.O.'s and Privates
                  > Fit for Duty and Staff Present
                  > Maxwell's Brigade 1225 83 1142
                  > (1st, 2d, 3d New Jersey Regiments, and Spencer's Additional Regiment)
                  > Poor's Brigade 1049 85 964
                  > (1st, 2d, 3d New Hampshire Regiments, 2d New York Regiment)
                  > Hand's Brigade 800 66 754
                  > (4th and 11th Pennsylvania Regiments, German Regiment, Morgan's Rifle Corps, Schott's Rifle Corps)
                  > Procter's Artillery 147 16 131
                  > (4th Battalion, Continental Artillery)
                  >
                  > In another example, in June 1778, just before the Monmouth Campaign, the 1st Pennsylvania Brigade had 840 non-commissioned officers, and rank and file, but only 505 knapsacks and 24 haversacks. Returns for other Continental Army units show severe shortages of haversacks and knapsacks as well. (See endnote for equipment returns for several brigades and a single Massachusetts company, spanning the period from 1778 to 1782.)38
                  >
                • dlwilbanks
                  John & List, It seems that the Brits readily used the Haversack, and there were notable shortages in the Continentals, but did we acquire any supplies of
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 28, 2010
                    John & List,

                    It seems that the Brits readily used the Haversack, and there were notable shortages in the Continentals, but did we acquire any supplies of note(besides muskets and uniforms)from the French? Okay, I'll just say it, did the French supplies include any Haversacks?

                    Thanks,

                    Dan



                    --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John" <ju_rees@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Well, as frustrating as this conversation has been, some good information HAS come out. BUT, while British equipment returns show enough haversacks issued to complete all their soldiers (on campaign), American returns and other accounts indicate periodic shortages, so much so that it was often the norm for Continental troops NOT to have haversacks. Next time you go out, try carrying your food in your knapsack or in a camp kettle (I have, it's an interesting exercise).
                    >
                    > The following is excerpted from a monograph I wrote for the Sapper and Miners, titled:
                    >
                    > "'Six of our regt lived together �': Mess Groups, Carrying Food � (and a Little Bit of Tongue)in the Armies of the Revolution"
                    > (see below)
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    >
                    > John Rees
                    >
                    > Carrying Food. Optimally, soldiers were issued haversacks (a coarse linen bag) to carry rations on the march. The haversack was slung it over a man's right shoulder, hanging under his left arm. One surviving British example measures 13 1/2 inches high by 16 3/4 inches wide, with a two-inch linen strap (for photographs see, http://www.najecki.com/repro/misc/Nannos/HaversackBody.html ). On at least one occasion Continental soldiers were directed to construct their own. "College Camp [ Williamsburg , Virginia ] October the 11th. 1775 ... [A] Captain of Each Company is to Apply to the Quartermaster for Linnen Cloth to make a habersack for Each Soldier one yard of Oznabrigs is Supposed to be Sufficient for the purpose of making the sack ... Each Soldier to make his own sack ... as near one General Size & patern as Possible. Thread Sufficient for the purpose must be Drawn ..." (Haversacks could be multi-purposed. In November 1757 British troops at Annapolis, Nova Scotia, went to an apple orchard and "filled bags, haversacks, baskets and even their pockets with fruit." When in Pennsylvania , soldiers of the 64th Regiment were ordered to convey a ration issue to camp: "Ashtown Camp 14th September 1777 ... The Men are to go with their Haversacks for flour to Hills Milles.")28
                    >
                    > Bennett Cuthbertson noted in his 1768 military treatise, "a Soldier cannot conveniently get through the Duties of a Campaign, without a Haversack of strong, coarse, grey linen (which is always issued as part of the Camp-equipage) to carry his bread and provisions on a March..." With that said, Continental soldiers were often without haversacks due to supply shortfalls. For example, an "Abstract of the Arms & Accoutrements deliverd out at Philadelphia to the Continental Troops by the Commissary Genl. of Military Stores" for the period from 1 April 1777 to the beginning of August the same year show only 3,135 haversacks issued as opposed to 13,297 knapsacks. This at a time when the army under Gen. George Washington's immediate command numbered approximately 14,000, leaving at least three quarters of the troops without haversacks.29
                    >
                    > Whether or not haversacks were available, soldiers transported food other ways, too. Portions of a mess squad's food were occasionally carried in a camp kettle, each man taking his turn with the burden. Connecticut soldier Joseph Martin wrote of this occurring autumn 1777, when his regiment halted in Burlington, New Jersey , "where we procured some carrion beef, for it was not better. We cooked it and ate some, and carried the remainder away with us. We had always, in the army, to carry our cooking utensils in our hands by turns, and at this time, as we were not overburthened by provisions, our mess had put ours into our kettle, it not being very heavy, as it was made of plated iron."30
                    >
                    > Other items were specifically intended to hold food or converted to that purpose. In May 1779, the colonel of the 1st Pennsylvania Regiment directed his officers that the "Compys will have the [new] Knapsacks delivered, that the men may appear with their Cloathing in them this afternoon. The old Knapsacks the men have in their Possession, they will keep to carry their Provisions in them." In February 1776 a "new invented Knapsack and Haversack" was advertised to Maryland. The manufacturer touted it as already "adopted by the American regulars of Pennsylvania, New Jersey & Virginia ..." The truth of that assertion is open to doubt, but the item is interesting in that it was a dual purpose knapsack intended to carry a soldier's clothing as well as food.31
                    >
                    > Soldiers also packed food in their primary knapsacks along with clothing and other necessaries. Orders for Jackson 's Additional Regiment, " Boston Oct 4. 1777 The Regiment to hold themselves in readiness to embark ... it is expected that every Non Commissioned Officer & Soldier, will have his Cloathing & Necessaries put up in their Knapsacks this afternoon, together with two days provisions Cook'd ..." The same month a private with General Horatio Gates' Northern Army noted, "at night we drew rations and were notified to be ready early on the next Morn' to march to Stillwater, so we boiled our Meet and had our provisions all in our Paiks ready ... early in the Morn' [we] were paraded and marched off ..." Joseph Martin wrote of returning to the Valley Forge camp in early spring of 1778, carrying "two or three days' rations in my knapsack," and in July 1779 the troops on Sullivan's Expedition were issued rations and ordered "to take [them] in their packs ..."32
                    >
                    > Using equipment unsuited for carrying food increased the troops' burden considerably, and without adequate containers to carry provisions they were easily spoiled or lost, thus wasting the extraordinary effort expended to obtain it. Unfortunately, in the Continental Army haversacks, canteens, and camp kettles had a high rate of attrition. Prior to each campaign large supplies of each were needed to complete the men adequately, but often sufficient quantities had not been received even after the army marched. This remained true until the war's end. While preparing to take the field in 1782, Quartermaster General Timothy Pickering informed General Washington that nothing more was needed "except knapsacks, canteens & camp kettles." He particularly mentioned canteens as "an article so frequently lost & broken."33
                    >
                    > Following a time-honored tradition soldiers were forced to improvise and suffer the inconvenience. Orders for the attack on the British at Germantown (4 October 1777) directed soldiers to "take their provision in their habersacks [sic], such as have not habersacks are to take their provision in their pockets, or in such manner as may be most convenient." Writing after the battle, Timothy Pickering, then Washington's adjutant general, noted that "Haversacks ... are exceedingly wanted for carrying the men's provisions. In the last action the men having no other way tied their provisions up in their blankets and shirts some of which were left in consequence thereof." (In a similar manner Sgt. Jeremiah Greenman, travelling to Valley Forge in 1778, "toock sum provision in a hankerchife.") When the New Jersey Brigade had a large influx of drafted men in June 1778, their commander wrote, "There is about 450 of the new Leveys come in. I do not know what we shall do for want of Haversacks, should we March, to carry their Provisions. Coll. Cox has given orders to the first and 2d Regts. to get as much cloath from his agent here as will make them [haversacks] but he says there is no more therefore the 3d and 4th [Regiments] must be served from camp."34
                    >
                    > Every locale saw shortages. In May 1778 a two-thousand man expedition was sent against British held St. Augustine, East Florida. From "Camp at Fort Howe on Alatamaha" River, Georgia, an American officer complained to William Moultrie, "you have been much too parsimonious in your fitting us out for this expedition ... what is more inconvenient than to have only one camp-kettle to ten, twelve or fifteen men? and in this hot climate to have one small canteen to six or eight men? we think no expense too great to procure men, but we do not think after we have got them, that we ought to go to the expense of preserving their health ... the Gen. requested me to desire you to send round in a boat ... 500 canteens, 100 camp-kettles, and 35 or 40 tents ..."35
                    >
                    > Units earmarked for John Sullivan's 1779 Indian Expedition experienced similar difficulties. General Edward Hand wrote in March, from Minisink on the New York/New Jersey frontier, that he "wish[ed] to know where we may be supplied with ... Camp Kettles & Canteens all which we are destitute of ..." (The units under his command were the 2nd New York Regiment, German Regiment, Spencer's Additional Regiment, Armand's Legion Infantry, and Captain Schott's Independent Company.) A series of receipts made early in 1779 show severe shortfalls in numbers of canteens and knapsacks needed by the New Jersey Brigade for the year's campaign. On 29 January, 301 knapsacks and 175 canteens were issued to the 2d New Jersey Regiment; four months later on 25 May an additional 50 knapsacks, 229 canteens, and 35 camp kettles were issued to the same unit. (Thirty five kettles would supply 210 common soldiers; during this period the overall strength of the 2d New Jersey ranged from 431 non-commissioned officers and rank and file in January, to 356 three months later.) In April, when the entire Jersey Brigade numbered 1,011 men, "86 Canteens 581 Knapsacks ... [and] five Hund. Canteen Straps" were issued to supply a deficit. Haversacks were also wanted. General orders at Wyoming, 27 July 1779, stipulated that "The Comdg. officers of regiments & corps will forthwith ... furnish their troops with knapsacks, haversacks and canteens complete." On 23 August 1779, after the troops under Sullivan had already marched great distances in difficult country, General Sullivan, at Tioga, Pennsylvania, ordered "The different Corps ... immediately to call on the Qr.Mr Genl For ... Knapsacks, haversacks, & Canteens."36 A 21 August 1779 return for Sullivan's army still shows shortages of much-needed food-related equipment, including knapsacks and haversacks (see below):37
                    >
                    > "A General Return of Stores in The Quarter Master General's Department with the Army under the Command of ... Major General John Sullivan on the Western Expedition Fort Sullivan, Tioga," 21 August 1779.
                    > Camp
                    > Kettles Bowls
                    > with Camp Iron and
                    > Covers Kettles Cups Dishes Canteens
                    > Maxwell's Brigade 184 26 80 957
                    > Poor's Brigade 213 19 869
                    > Hand's Brigade 109 555
                    > Proctor's Artillery 13 39 180
                    >
                    > Knapsacks Haversacks
                    > Maxwell's Brigade 1044 765
                    > Poor's Brigade 851 535
                    > Hand's Brigade 625 526
                    > Proctor's Artillery 100
                    >
                    > Unit strength August 1779:
                    > Present Officers N.C.O.'s and Privates
                    > Fit for Duty and Staff Present
                    > Maxwell's Brigade 1225 83 1142
                    > (1st, 2d, 3d New Jersey Regiments, and Spencer's Additional Regiment)
                    > Poor's Brigade 1049 85 964
                    > (1st, 2d, 3d New Hampshire Regiments, 2d New York Regiment)
                    > Hand's Brigade 800 66 754
                    > (4th and 11th Pennsylvania Regiments, German Regiment, Morgan's Rifle Corps, Schott's Rifle Corps)
                    > Procter's Artillery 147 16 131
                    > (4th Battalion, Continental Artillery)
                    >
                    > In another example, in June 1778, just before the Monmouth Campaign, the 1st Pennsylvania Brigade had 840 non-commissioned officers, and rank and file, but only 505 knapsacks and 24 haversacks. Returns for other Continental Army units show severe shortages of haversacks and knapsacks as well. (See endnote for equipment returns for several brigades and a single Massachusetts company, spanning the period from 1778 to 1782.)38
                    >
                  • Bryan Wise
                    Ditto! Bryan Wise RevList Lurker ... From: dlwilbanks To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 11:36 AM Subject: [Revlist] Re: Haversacks:
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 28, 2010
                      Ditto!
                      Bryan Wise
                      RevList Lurker
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: dlwilbanks
                      To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 11:36 AM
                      Subject: [Revlist] Re: Haversacks: Did they have them?



                      John,

                      Thanks so much for the great posting. I know a number on the list are grumping at this series of postings about the "H" word. But I have more read more good detail regarding this topic, pro and con since the original request from Eric. Isn't that the purpose of a discussion board?

                      At your service,

                      Dan L. Wilbanks
                      Old Oregon Territory

                      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John" <ju_rees@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Well, as frustrating as this conversation has been, some good information HAS come out. BUT, while British equipment returns show enough haversacks issued to complete all their soldiers (on campaign), American returns and other accounts indicate periodic shortages, so much so that it was often the norm for Continental troops NOT to have haversacks. Next time you go out, try carrying your food in your knapsack or in a camp kettle (I have, it's an interesting exercise).
                      >
                      > The following is excerpted from a monograph I wrote for the Sapper and Miners, titled:
                      >
                      > "'Six of our regt lived together .': Mess Groups, Carrying Food . (and a Little Bit of Tongue)in the Armies of the Revolution"
                      > (see below)
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      >
                      > John Rees
                      >
                      > Carrying Food. Optimally, soldiers were issued haversacks (a coarse linen bag) to carry rations on the march. The haversack was slung it over a man's right shoulder, hanging under his left arm. One surviving British example measures 13 1/2 inches high by 16 3/4 inches wide, with a two-inch linen strap (for photographs see, http://www.najecki.com/repro/misc/Nannos/HaversackBody.html ). On at least one occasion Continental soldiers were directed to construct their own. "College Camp [ Williamsburg , Virginia ] October the 11th. 1775 ... [A] Captain of Each Company is to Apply to the Quartermaster for Linnen Cloth to make a habersack for Each Soldier one yard of Oznabrigs is Supposed to be Sufficient for the purpose of making the sack ... Each Soldier to make his own sack ... as near one General Size & patern as Possible. Thread Sufficient for the purpose must be Drawn ..." (Haversacks could be multi-purposed. In November 1757 British troops at Annapolis, Nova Scotia, went to an apple orchard and "filled bags, haversacks, baskets and even their pockets with fruit." When in Pennsylvania , soldiers of the 64th Regiment were ordered to convey a ration issue to camp: "Ashtown Camp 14th September 1777 ... The Men are to go with their Haversacks for flour to Hills Milles.")28
                      >
                      > Bennett Cuthbertson noted in his 1768 military treatise, "a Soldier cannot conveniently get through the Duties of a Campaign, without a Haversack of strong, coarse, grey linen (which is always issued as part of the Camp-equipage) to carry his bread and provisions on a March..." With that said, Continental soldiers were often without haversacks due to supply shortfalls. For example, an "Abstract of the Arms & Accoutrements deliverd out at Philadelphia to the Continental Troops by the Commissary Genl. of Military Stores" for the period from 1 April 1777 to the beginning of August the same year show only 3,135 haversacks issued as opposed to 13,297 knapsacks. This at a time when the army under Gen. George Washington's immediate command numbered approximately 14,000, leaving at least three quarters of the troops without haversacks.29
                      >
                      > Whether or not haversacks were available, soldiers transported food other ways, too. Portions of a mess squad's food were occasionally carried in a camp kettle, each man taking his turn with the burden. Connecticut soldier Joseph Martin wrote of this occurring autumn 1777, when his regiment halted in Burlington, New Jersey , "where we procured some carrion beef, for it was not better. We cooked it and ate some, and carried the remainder away with us. We had always, in the army, to carry our cooking utensils in our hands by turns, and at this time, as we were not overburthened by provisions, our mess had put ours into our kettle, it not being very heavy, as it was made of plated iron."30
                      >
                      > Other items were specifically intended to hold food or converted to that purpose. In May 1779, the colonel of the 1st Pennsylvania Regiment directed his officers that the "Compys will have the [new] Knapsacks delivered, that the men may appear with their Cloathing in them this afternoon. The old Knapsacks the men have in their Possession, they will keep to carry their Provisions in them." In February 1776 a "new invented Knapsack and Haversack" was advertised to Maryland. The manufacturer touted it as already "adopted by the American regulars of Pennsylvania, New Jersey & Virginia ..." The truth of that assertion is open to doubt, but the item is interesting in that it was a dual purpose knapsack intended to carry a soldier's clothing as well as food.31
                      >
                      > Soldiers also packed food in their primary knapsacks along with clothing and other necessaries. Orders for Jackson 's Additional Regiment, " Boston Oct 4. 1777 The Regiment to hold themselves in readiness to embark ... it is expected that every Non Commissioned Officer & Soldier, will have his Cloathing & Necessaries put up in their Knapsacks this afternoon, together with two days provisions Cook'd ..." The same month a private with General Horatio Gates' Northern Army noted, "at night we drew rations and were notified to be ready early on the next Morn' to march to Stillwater, so we boiled our Meet and had our provisions all in our Paiks ready ... early in the Morn' [we] were paraded and marched off ..." Joseph Martin wrote of returning to the Valley Forge camp in early spring of 1778, carrying "two or three days' rations in my knapsack," and in July 1779 the troops on Sullivan's Expedition were issued rations and ordered "to take [them] in their packs ..."32
                      >
                      > Using equipment unsuited for carrying food increased the troops' burden considerably, and without adequate containers to carry provisions they were easily spoiled or lost, thus wasting the extraordinary effort expended to obtain it. Unfortunately, in the Continental Army haversacks, canteens, and camp kettles had a high rate of attrition. Prior to each campaign large supplies of each were needed to complete the men adequately, but often sufficient quantities had not been received even after the army marched. This remained true until the war's end. While preparing to take the field in 1782, Quartermaster General Timothy Pickering informed General Washington that nothing more was needed "except knapsacks, canteens & camp kettles." He particularly mentioned canteens as "an article so frequently lost & broken."33
                      >
                      > Following a time-honored tradition soldiers were forced to improvise and suffer the inconvenience. Orders for the attack on the British at Germantown (4 October 1777) directed soldiers to "take their provision in their habersacks [sic], such as have not habersacks are to take their provision in their pockets, or in such manner as may be most convenient." Writing after the battle, Timothy Pickering, then Washington's adjutant general, noted that "Haversacks ... are exceedingly wanted for carrying the men's provisions. In the last action the men having no other way tied their provisions up in their blankets and shirts some of which were left in consequence thereof." (In a similar manner Sgt. Jeremiah Greenman, travelling to Valley Forge in 1778, "toock sum provision in a hankerchife.") When the New Jersey Brigade had a large influx of drafted men in June 1778, their commander wrote, "There is about 450 of the new Leveys come in. I do not know what we shall do for want of Haversacks, should we March, to carry their Provisions. Coll. Cox has given orders to the first and 2d Regts. to get as much cloath from his agent here as will make them [haversacks] but he says there is no more therefore the 3d and 4th [Regiments] must be served from camp."34
                      >
                      > Every locale saw shortages. In May 1778 a two-thousand man expedition was sent against British held St. Augustine, East Florida. From "Camp at Fort Howe on Alatamaha" River, Georgia, an American officer complained to William Moultrie, "you have been much too parsimonious in your fitting us out for this expedition ... what is more inconvenient than to have only one camp-kettle to ten, twelve or fifteen men? and in this hot climate to have one small canteen to six or eight men? we think no expense too great to procure men, but we do not think after we have got them, that we ought to go to the expense of preserving their health ... the Gen. requested me to desire you to send round in a boat ... 500 canteens, 100 camp-kettles, and 35 or 40 tents ..."35
                      >
                      > Units earmarked for John Sullivan's 1779 Indian Expedition experienced similar difficulties. General Edward Hand wrote in March, from Minisink on the New York/New Jersey frontier, that he "wish[ed] to know where we may be supplied with ... Camp Kettles & Canteens all which we are destitute of ..." (The units under his command were the 2nd New York Regiment, German Regiment, Spencer's Additional Regiment, Armand's Legion Infantry, and Captain Schott's Independent Company.) A series of receipts made early in 1779 show severe shortfalls in numbers of canteens and knapsacks needed by the New Jersey Brigade for the year's campaign. On 29 January, 301 knapsacks and 175 canteens were issued to the 2d New Jersey Regiment; four months later on 25 May an additional 50 knapsacks, 229 canteens, and 35 camp kettles were issued to the same unit. (Thirty five kettles would supply 210 common soldiers; during this period the overall strength of the 2d New Jersey ranged from 431 non-commissioned officers and rank and file in January, to 356 three months later.) In April, when the entire Jersey Brigade numbered 1,011 men, "86 Canteens 581 Knapsacks ... [and] five Hund. Canteen Straps" were issued to supply a deficit. Haversacks were also wanted. General orders at Wyoming, 27 July 1779, stipulated that "The Comdg. officers of regiments & corps will forthwith ... furnish their troops with knapsacks, haversacks and canteens complete." On 23 August 1779, after the troops under Sullivan had already marched great distances in difficult country, General Sullivan, at Tioga, Pennsylvania, ordered "The different Corps ... immediately to call on the Qr.Mr Genl For ... Knapsacks, haversacks, & Canteens."36 A 21 August 1779 return for Sullivan's army still shows shortages of much-needed food-related equipment, including knapsacks and haversacks (see below):37
                      >
                      > "A General Return of Stores in The Quarter Master General's Department with the Army under the Command of ... Major General John Sullivan on the Western Expedition Fort Sullivan, Tioga," 21 August 1779.
                      > Camp
                      > Kettles Bowls
                      > with Camp Iron and
                      > Covers Kettles Cups Dishes Canteens
                      > Maxwell's Brigade 184 26 80 957
                      > Poor's Brigade 213 19 869
                      > Hand's Brigade 109 555
                      > Proctor's Artillery 13 39 180
                      >
                      > Knapsacks Haversacks
                      > Maxwell's Brigade 1044 765
                      > Poor's Brigade 851 535
                      > Hand's Brigade 625 526
                      > Proctor's Artillery 100
                      >
                      > Unit strength August 1779:
                      > Present Officers N.C.O.'s and Privates
                      > Fit for Duty and Staff Present
                      > Maxwell's Brigade 1225 83 1142
                      > (1st, 2d, 3d New Jersey Regiments, and Spencer's Additional Regiment)
                      > Poor's Brigade 1049 85 964
                      > (1st, 2d, 3d New Hampshire Regiments, 2d New York Regiment)
                      > Hand's Brigade 800 66 754
                      > (4th and 11th Pennsylvania Regiments, German Regiment, Morgan's Rifle Corps, Schott's Rifle Corps)
                      > Procter's Artillery 147 16 131
                      > (4th Battalion, Continental Artillery)
                      >
                      > In another example, in June 1778, just before the Monmouth Campaign, the 1st Pennsylvania Brigade had 840 non-commissioned officers, and rank and file, but only 505 knapsacks and 24 haversacks. Returns for other Continental Army units show severe shortages of haversacks and knapsacks as well. (See endnote for equipment returns for several brigades and a single Massachusetts company, spanning the period from 1778 to 1782.)38
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mike E
                      Allow me to pose a question, regarding this item, as applies to us modern reenactors. What I carry in mine are modern wallet, car keys, 18th Cent eyeglasses,
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 28, 2010
                        Allow me to pose a question, regarding this item, as applies to us modern reenactors. What I carry in mine are modern wallet, car keys, 18th Cent eyeglasses, breath mints (to talk with the public), a pocket knife, some sinew, and a small Bible. Since I am reluctant to leave especially the wallet and keys behind, in my tent (not that I don't trust reencators, I don't trust the public), what shall I do with them?
                        YHS,
                        Mike Eckhart
                        Cpl., 24th Conn Militia
                        (who has a home-made, hand-sewn, leather strapped, antler buttoned, brown oilcloth, haversack)
                      • donhagist
                        Put them in your pockets. Funny how we can use this modern solution in an 18th Century context. Our predecessors also carried wallets, watches with fobs, seals
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 28, 2010
                          Put them in your pockets.
                          Funny how we can use this modern solution in an 18th Century context. Our predecessors also carried wallets, watches with fobs, seals and such, clasp knives, pocket books, coin purses, prayer books, and what have you. They carried them in their pockets. We can too.
                          If the car keys are too bulky and jangly, that is easily solved by having a separate keyring with just the car key on it. Use it to lock the bulky wad of house and office keys in the car, and carry only the key for the car itself. In fact, that key can fit in the wallet.
                          Here's a nice court martial that mentions what a serjeant of the 42nd regiment was carrying in his pockets. If he can do it, we can do it.
                          http://www.ballindalloch-press.com/55th/Williams.html
                          Don N. Hagist
                          http://revolutionaryimprints.com

                          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mike E" <meck1776@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Allow me to pose a question, regarding this item, as applies to us modern reenactors. What I carry in mine are modern wallet, car keys, 18th Cent eyeglasses, breath mints (to talk with the public), a pocket knife, some sinew, and a small Bible. Since I am reluctant to leave especially the wallet and keys behind, in my tent (not that I don't trust reencators, I don't trust the public), what shall I do with them?
                          > YHS,
                          > Mike Eckhart
                          > Cpl., 24th Conn Militia
                          > (who has a home-made, hand-sewn, leather strapped, antler buttoned, brown oilcloth, haversack)
                          >
                        • Sgt42RHR@aol.com
                          IN the context of the time, they put their hands into his Pockets & took from him his watch together with a Pocket Book & Black Leather Pencase & a
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 28, 2010
                            IN the context of the time, " they put their hands into his Pockets & took
                            from him his watch together with a Pocket Book & Black Leather Pencase & a
                            Handkerchief; " does there reference to a Pocket Book refer to a small
                            notebook?

                            Cheers,
                            John

                            John M. Johnston
                            There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry


                            In a message dated 2/28/2010 9:42:06 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                            dhagist@... writes:




                            Put them in your pockets.
                            Funny how we can use this modern solution in an 18th Century context. Our
                            predecessors also carried wallets, watches with fobs, seals and such, clasp
                            knives, pocket books, coin purses, prayer books, and what have you. They
                            carried them in their pockets. We can too.
                            If the car keys are too bulky and jangly, that is easily solved by having
                            a separate keyring with just the car key on it. Use it to lock the bulky
                            wad of house and office keys in the car, and carry only the key for the car
                            itself. In fact, that key can fit in the wallet.
                            Here's a nice court martial that mentions what a serjeant of the 42nd
                            regiment was carrying in his pockets. If he can do it, we can do it.
                            _http://www.ballindahttp://www.bhttp://wwhttp://wwhttp_
                            (http://www.ballindalloch-press.com/55th/Williams.html)
                            Don N. Hagist
                            _http://revolutionarhttp://revhtt_ (http://revolutionaryimprints.com/)

                            --- In _Revlist@yahoogroupsRevl_ (mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups.com) , "Mike
                            E" <meck1776@..m> wrote:
                            >
                            > Allow me to pose a question, regarding this item, as applies to us
                            modern reenactors. What I carry in mine are modern wallet, car keys, 18th Cent
                            eyeglasses, breath mints (to talk with the public), a pocket knife, some
                            sinew, and a small Bible. Since I am reluctant to leave especially the wallet
                            and keys behind, in my tent (not that I don't trust reencators, I don't
                            trust the public), what shall I do with them?
                            > YHS,
                            > Mike Eckhart
                            > Cpl., 24th Conn Militia
                            > (who has a home-made, hand-sewn, leather strapped, antler buttoned,
                            brown oilcloth, haversack)
                            >






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Gregory Theberge
                            a man s wallet, especially an embroidered cloth wallet (like a modern wallet for carrying money and credit cards, not to be confused with a market wallet )
                            Message 13 of 26 , Mar 1, 2010
                              a man's wallet, especially an embroidered cloth wallet (like a modern wallet for carrying money and credit cards, not to be confused with a "market wallet") was often referred to as a pocketbook.

                              --- On Mon, 3/1/10, Sgt42RHR@... <Sgt42RHR@...> wrote:

                              From: Sgt42RHR@... <Sgt42RHR@...>
                              Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: Keys and wallet - in your pockets
                              To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 12:18 AM
















                               









                              IN the context of the time, " they put their hands into his Pockets & took

                              from him his watch together with a Pocket Book & Black Leather Pencase & a

                              Handkerchief; " does there reference to a Pocket Book refer to a small

                              notebook?



                              Cheers,

                              John



                              John M. Johnston

                              There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry



                              In a message dated 2/28/2010 9:42:06 P.M. Central Standard Time,

                              dhagist@cox. net writes:



                              Put them in your pockets.

                              Funny how we can use this modern solution in an 18th Century context. Our

                              predecessors also carried wallets, watches with fobs, seals and such, clasp

                              knives, pocket books, coin purses, prayer books, and what have you. They

                              carried them in their pockets. We can too.

                              If the car keys are too bulky and jangly, that is easily solved by having

                              a separate keyring with just the car key on it. Use it to lock the bulky

                              wad of house and office keys in the car, and carry only the key for the car

                              itself. In fact, that key can fit in the wallet.

                              Here's a nice court martial that mentions what a serjeant of the 42nd

                              regiment was carrying in his pockets. If he can do it, we can do it.

                              _http://www.ballinda http://www. bhttp://wwhttp: //wwhttp_

                              (http://www.ballinda lloch-press. com/55th/ Williams. html)

                              Don N. Hagist

                              _http://revolutionar http://revhtt_ (http://revolutionar yimprints. com/)



                              --- In _Revlist@yahoogroup sRevl_ (mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups .com) , "Mike

                              E" <meck1776@.. m> wrote:

                              >

                              > Allow me to pose a question, regarding this item, as applies to us

                              modern reenactors. What I carry in mine are modern wallet, car keys, 18th Cent

                              eyeglasses, breath mints (to talk with the public), a pocket knife, some

                              sinew, and a small Bible. Since I am reluctant to leave especially the wallet

                              and keys behind, in my tent (not that I don't trust reencators, I don't

                              trust the public), what shall I do with them?

                              > YHS,

                              > Mike Eckhart

                              > Cpl., 24th Conn Militia

                              > (who has a home-made, hand-sewn, leather strapped, antler buttoned,

                              brown oilcloth, haversack)

                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






























                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Sgt42RHR@aol.com
                              Thank you for your response. Since this man was a Sjt., and since he was carrying a pen in a case, I wondered if it might be a small pocket book of paper for
                              Message 14 of 26 , Mar 1, 2010
                                Thank you for your response. Since this man was a Sjt., and since he was
                                carrying a pen in a case, I wondered if it might be a small pocket book of
                                paper for taking notes. I wonder, if that had been the article in
                                question, how would it have been described?

                                Again, thanks for your reply.

                                Cheers,
                                John

                                John M. Johnston
                                There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry


                                In a message dated 3/1/2010 5:34:27 A.M. Central Standard Time,
                                gstheberge@... writes:

                                a man's wallet, especially an embroidered cloth wallet (like a modern
                                wallet for carrying money and credit cards, not to be confused with a "market
                                wallet") was often referred to as a pocketbook.




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Gregory Theberge
                                John.   to be honest, we often look for a 21st century label to put on things that may not have meant the same thing back then. I do know embroidered men s
                                Message 15 of 26 , Mar 1, 2010
                                  John.
                                   
                                  to be honest, we often look for a 21st century label to put on things that may not have meant the same thing back then. I do know embroidered men's 21st century "wallets" (for example, flamestitch) were known as pocketbooks, but who knows, the author may have meant something entirely different. Is it a book to put in one's pocket, or a pocket that resembled a book. I wonder how a woman's contemporary "pocketbook" got it's name now that we think of it.
                                   
                                  greg

                                  --- On Mon, 3/1/10, Sgt42RHR@... <Sgt42RHR@...> wrote:


                                  From: Sgt42RHR@... <Sgt42RHR@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: Keys and wallet - in your pockets
                                  To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 8:01 AM


                                   



                                  Thank you for your response. Since this man was a Sjt., and since he was
                                  carrying a pen in a case, I wondered if it might be a small pocket book of
                                  paper for taking notes. I wonder, if that had been the article in
                                  question, how would it have been described?

                                  Again, thanks for your reply.

                                  Cheers,
                                  John

                                  John M. Johnston
                                  There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry

                                  In a message dated 3/1/2010 5:34:27 A.M. Central Standard Time,
                                  gstheberge@yahoo. com writes:

                                  a man's wallet, especially an embroidered cloth wallet (like a modern
                                  wallet for carrying money and credit cards, not to be confused with a "market
                                  wallet") was often referred to as a pocketbook.

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • dkeas
                                  Was in the research section of the library and ran across this book: The Book of the Continental Soldier by Harold L. Peterson and published in 1968. Didn¹t
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Mar 1, 2010
                                    Was in the research section of the library and ran across this book: The
                                    Book of the Continental Soldier by Harold L. Peterson and published in 1968.
                                    Didn¹t have much time to look at it, but what I saw it seemed to have some
                                    good research backed by a good Bibliography. Anyone else ever read this
                                    book and if so, does it seem to be good info? Don



                                    From: John <ju_rees@...>
                                    Reply-To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:43:47 -0000
                                    To: <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Subject: [Revlist] Re: Haversacks: Did they have them? Now Rev War food
                                    article ...






                                    Hi Mike,

                                    Curious, I saw your post right AFTER I posted my piece on haversack
                                    shortages. Sad to say, we think alike ...

                                    For anyone interested in more on Rev War soldiers' food, mess groups, food
                                    distribution, my article (see outline below) on the subject will be out in
                                    Military Collector & Historian later this year ... not too late to subscribe
                                    (for information see http://military-historians.org/ ) My piece on the
                                    Battle of Millstone, January 1777, should be out in the March issue.

                                    Cheers,

                                    John
                                    www.revwar75.com/library/rees

                                    "'To the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet.': Soldiers' Food and
                                    Cooking in the War for Independence"
                                    Subheadings:

                                    "The manner of messing and living together": Continental Army Mess Groups
                                    "Who shall have this?": Food Distribution
                                    "A hard game ...": Continental Army Cooks
                                    "On with Kittle, to make some hasty Pudding …": How a "Continental Devil"
                                    Broke His Fast
                                    1. The Army Ration and Cooking Methods.
                                    2. Eating Utensils.
                                    3. The Morning Meal.
                                    4. Other Likely Breakfast Fare.

                                    --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> , "mike"
                                    <ottercreek@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> , "John"
                                    <ju_rees@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Well, as frustrating as this conversation has been, some good information
                                    HAS come out. BUT, while British equipment returns show enough haversacks issued
                                    to complete all their soldiers (on campaign), American returns and other
                                    accounts indicate periodic shortages, so much so that it was often the norm for
                                    Continental troops NOT to have haversacks. Next time you go out, try carrying
                                    your food in your knapsack or in a camp kettle (I have, it's an interesting
                                    exercise).
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > John,
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for posting that piece. Quite interesting. Some of those returns and
                                    comments are ones I have seen and prompted my impression. Following is a quote
                                    from Burgoyne's "State of the Expedition from Canada ..." (available from Don
                                    Hagist, by the way) talking about men carrying their provisions:
                                    >
                                    > "Those who are acquainted with the capricious working of the tempers of
                                    men, will not wonder at the difficulty of prevailing upon a common soldier in
                                    any exigency to husband his provisions. In a settled camp, the young soldier has
                                    very short fare on the fourth day after delivery: but upon a march in bad
                                    weather and bad roads, when the weary foot slips back at every step, and a
                                    general curse is provoked at the weight that causes the retardment, he must be a
                                    patient veteran, and of much experience in scarcity, who is not tempted to throw
                                    the whole contents of the haversack into the mire. He feels the present
                                    incumbrance grievous--Want is a day remote.--'Let the General find a supply: it
                                    is the King's cause and the General's interest--he will never let the soldier be
                                    starved.'
                                    > "This is common reasoning in the ranks. I state it for those who have not
                                    seen fatiguing service, and may have a judgment to form upon it."
                                    >
                                    > Each day's provisions, if a reasonable quantity, would amount to two to three
                                    pounds and a soldier often received four days at a time so, do the math--upwards
                                    of twelve pounds hanging off that narrow strap. If you get tired carrying a
                                    firelock that weighs less than that ...?
                                    >
                                    > Mike Barbieri
                                    > Whitcomb's Corps
                                    >








                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • bolton1812
                                    ...knapsack? Cheers, Bob Bolton Pa. Associators
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Mar 1, 2010
                                      ...knapsack?
                                      Cheers,
                                      Bob Bolton
                                      Pa. Associators




                                      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mike E" <meck1776@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Allow me to pose a question, regarding this item, as applies to us modern reenactors. What I carry in mine are modern wallet, car keys, 18th Cent eyeglasses, breath mints (to talk with the public), a pocket knife, some sinew, and a small Bible. Since I am reluctant to leave especially the wallet and keys behind, in my tent (not that I don't trust reencators, I don't trust the public), what shall I do with them?
                                      > YHS,
                                      > Mike Eckhart
                                      > Cpl., 24th Conn Militia
                                      > (who has a home-made, hand-sewn, leather strapped, antler buttoned, brown oilcloth, haversack)
                                      >
                                    • bolton1812
                                      ...notebook? Cheers, Bob Bolton Pa. Associators
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Mar 1, 2010
                                        ...notebook?
                                        Cheers,
                                        Bob Bolton
                                        Pa. Associators



                                        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Sgt42RHR@... wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Thank you for your response. Since this man was a Sjt., and since he was
                                        > carrying a pen in a case, I wondered if it might be a small pocket book of
                                        > paper for taking notes. I wonder, if that had been the article in
                                        > question, how would it have been described?
                                        >
                                        > Again, thanks for your reply.
                                        >
                                        > Cheers,
                                        > John
                                        >
                                        > John M. Johnston
                                        > There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness. Dave Barry
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > In a message dated 3/1/2010 5:34:27 A.M. Central Standard Time,
                                        > gstheberge@... writes:
                                        >
                                        > a man's wallet, especially an embroidered cloth wallet (like a modern
                                        > wallet for carrying money and credit cards, not to be confused with a "market
                                        > wallet") was often referred to as a pocketbook.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • Mike E
                                        Not to be a smart-alec, but I know there s been discussion as to which style was pc. Was there a consensus, and who offers one for sale? Mike
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Mar 1, 2010
                                          Not to be a smart-alec, but I know there's been discussion as to which style was pc. Was there a consensus, and who offers one for sale?

                                          Mike

                                          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bolton1812" <ebolton123@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > ...knapsack?
                                          > Cheers,
                                          > Bob Bolton
                                          > Pa. Associators
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mike E" <meck1776@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Allow me to pose a question, regarding this item, as applies to us modern reenactors. What I carry in mine are modern wallet, car keys, 18th Cent eyeglasses, breath mints (to talk with the public), a pocket knife, some sinew, and a small Bible. Since I am reluctant to leave especially the wallet and keys behind, in my tent (not that I don't trust reencators, I don't trust the public), what shall I do with them?
                                          > > YHS,
                                          > > Mike Eckhart
                                          > > Cpl., 24th Conn Militia
                                          > > (who has a home-made, hand-sewn, leather strapped, antler buttoned, brown oilcloth, haversack)
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Todd Post
                                          Mike, Roy Najecki sells a good haversack in either kit or finished form, complete with documentation packet. Cheers, Todd Post 2d Virginia Regiment
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Mar 1, 2010
                                            Mike,

                                            Roy Najecki sells a good haversack in either kit or finished form, complete with documentation packet.

                                            Cheers,
                                            Todd Post
                                            2d Virginia Regiment
                                            www.secondvirginia.org

                                            "The heroism and gallantry of the second Virginia regiment I cannot help particularly mentioning; they would do honour to any country in the world. It is universally believed they behaved the best of any troops in the field."
                                            -- Virginia Gazette, October 17, 1777

                                            facebook.com/SecondVirginia
                                            twitter.com/SecondVirginia
                                            youtube.com/2dVirginiaRegiment
                                            flickr.com/photos/SecondVirginia

                                            On Mar 1, 2010, at 6:54 PM, Mike E wrote:

                                            > Not to be a smart-alec, but I know there's been discussion as to which style was pc. Was there a consensus, and who offers one for sale?
                                            >
                                            > Mike
                                          • bdodgeweaver
                                            ... Mike - Roy s kit for a plain haversack (no GR/Broad Arrow stamp) is $12. It s the cheap and authentic - Thad Weaver, German Rt.
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Mar 1, 2010
                                              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Todd Post <todd.post2@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Mike,
                                              >
                                              > Roy Najecki sells a good haversack in either kit or finished form, complete with documentation packet.
                                              >
                                              > Cheers,
                                              > Todd Post
                                              > 2d Virginia Regiment
                                              > www.secondvirginia.org
                                              >
                                              >
                                              Mike - Roy's kit for a plain haversack (no "GR/Broad Arrow" stamp) is $12. It's the cheap and authentic - Thad Weaver, German Rt.
                                            • gffranks3
                                              Mike et al., I highly recommend Roy Najecki s haversacks. I bought the kit and enjoyed creating the finished haversack from it. Everything you need plus
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Mar 2, 2010
                                                Mike et al.,

                                                I highly recommend Roy Najecki's haversacks.

                                                I bought the kit and enjoyed creating the finished haversack from it. Everything you need plus excellent instructions and documentation.

                                                Cheers,

                                                Geo. Franks, Hatter
                                                http://cockedhats.com
                                              • Mike E
                                                Should have made it a little clearer. One person suggested a knapsack for carrying the 21st century items. As I stated, I have a good haversack, in the
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Mar 2, 2010
                                                  Should have made it a little clearer. One person suggested a knapsack for carrying the 21st century items. As I stated, I have a good haversack, in the approximate dimensions, that I had handsewn. When did the knapsack come into vogue for the Continental soldier? I have one I put together copying the 1776 Sketchbook but I think people have issues with it.

                                                  Mike

                                                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bdodgeweaver" <BDodgeWeaver@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Todd Post <todd.post2@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Mike,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Roy Najecki sells a good haversack in either kit or finished form, complete with documentation packet.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Cheers,
                                                  > > Todd Post
                                                  > > 2d Virginia Regiment
                                                  > > www.secondvirginia.org
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > Mike - Roy's kit for a plain haversack (no "GR/Broad Arrow" stamp) is $12. It's the cheap and authentic - Thad Weaver, German Rt.
                                                  >
                                                • bolton1812
                                                  Mike, As to style...depends on your impression. A single bag style is really brainless to make...kinda like a slightly oversized haversack (OMG that word)
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Mar 2, 2010
                                                    Mike,
                                                    As to style...depends on your impression. A single bag style is really brainless to make...kinda like a slightly oversized haversack (OMG that word) with straps.
                                                    Cheers,
                                                    Bob Bolton
                                                    Pa. Associators

                                                    --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mike E" <meck1776@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Not to be a smart-alec, but I know there's been discussion as to which style was pc. Was there a consensus, and who offers one for sale?
                                                    >
                                                    > Mike
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bolton1812" <ebolton123@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > ...knapsack?
                                                    > > Cheers,
                                                    > > Bob Bolton
                                                    > > Pa. Associators
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mike E" <meck1776@> wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Allow me to pose a question, regarding this item, as applies to us modern reenactors. What I carry in mine are modern wallet, car keys, 18th Cent eyeglasses, breath mints (to talk with the public), a pocket knife, some sinew, and a small Bible. Since I am reluctant to leave especially the wallet and keys behind, in my tent (not that I don't trust reencators, I don't trust the public), what shall I do with them?
                                                    > > > YHS,
                                                    > > > Mike Eckhart
                                                    > > > Cpl., 24th Conn Militia
                                                    > > > (who has a home-made, hand-sewn, leather strapped, antler buttoned, brown oilcloth, haversack)
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                  • bolton1812
                                                    Mike, I guess that would have been me. I wasn t suggesting a knapsack for 21st c. items, rather, put your 21st c. items in your knapsack. A smallish cloth
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Mar 2, 2010
                                                      Mike,
                                                      I guess that would have been me. I wasn't suggesting a knapsack "for" 21st c. items, rather, put your 21st c. items in your knapsack. A smallish cloth or leather bag tied securely and tucked into a corner of your knapsack should hold your modern needs.
                                                      I guess it really depends on how you use your gear. If you need your haversack for food, use the k-sack for your keys, etc., as I mentioned. If you don't eat from your haversack, then it really does'nt matter which conveyance you use(?).
                                                      Cheers,
                                                      Bob Bolton
                                                      Pa. Associators


                                                      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mike E" <meck1776@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Should have made it a little clearer. One person suggested a knapsack for carrying the 21st century items. As I stated, I have a good haversack, in the approximate dimensions, that I had handsewn. When did the knapsack come into vogue for the Continental soldier? I have one I put together copying the 1776 Sketchbook but I think people have issues with it.
                                                      >
                                                      > Mike
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "bdodgeweaver" <BDodgeWeaver@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Todd Post <todd.post2@> wrote:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Mike,
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Roy Najecki sells a good haversack in either kit or finished form, complete with documentation packet.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Cheers,
                                                      > > > Todd Post
                                                      > > > 2d Virginia Regiment
                                                      > > > www.secondvirginia.org
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > Mike - Roy's kit for a plain haversack (no "GR/Broad Arrow" stamp) is $12. It's the cheap and authentic - Thad Weaver, German Rt.
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • Todd Post
                                                      Mike, ... I don t think it s a matter of knapsacks becoming into vogue for the Continental soldier , in fact I think the point has been made in this whole
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Mar 2, 2010
                                                        Mike,

                                                        > Should have made it a little clearer. One person suggested a knapsack for carrying the 21st century items. As I stated, I have a good haversack, in the approximate dimensions, that I had handsewn. When did the knapsack come into vogue for the Continental soldier? I have one I put together copying the 1776 Sketchbook but I think people have issues with it.

                                                        I don't think it's a matter of knapsacks becoming "into vogue for the Continental soldier", in fact I think the point has been made in this whole discussion that Continentals were more likely to have a knapsack then they were a haversack.

                                                        For the 2d Virginia Regiment, they were issuing cloth to make knapsacks within two months of formation (while new companies continued to roll into Williamsburg) as mentioned in the regiment's orderly book: "...“all the Officers of the 2nd Regiment are Immediately to get themselves in Readiness about Compleating their men with all the necessarys... knapsacks...Haversacks, or any other Necessarys.”" The daybook of the Virginia Public Store documents the cloth issued for this purpose: "To 73 yards Oznabr. Dilvd Capt Taliaferro for Napsacks @ 1/6"

                                                        You do have to be careful with "Sketchbook '76" as like with the Book of the Continental Soldier, while it was leading edge for its time, some of the information has been debunked. For instance, one of the knapsacks in there is actually a Federal period militia knapsack, not a Revolutionary War one.

                                                        Cheers,
                                                        Todd Post
                                                        2d Virginia Regiment
                                                        www.secondvirginia.org

                                                        "The heroism and gallantry of the second Virginia regiment I cannot help particularly mentioning; they would do honour to any country in the world. It is universally believed they behaved the best of any troops in the field."
                                                        -- Virginia Gazette, October 17, 1777

                                                        facebook.com/SecondVirginia
                                                        twitter.com/SecondVirginia
                                                        youtube.com/2dVirginiaRegiment
                                                        flickr.com/photos/SecondVirginia
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