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Re: [Revlist] Re: Drilling touch holes? -was -Does anybody have any experience with these muskets?

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  • Dan Gracia
    Hi Bob, I don t buy that excuse simply because his competitors (one in the US and one in Canada) also sell blackpowder muskets and arms that are made in India
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 1, 2009
      Hi Bob,

      I don't buy that excuse simply because his competitors (one in the US and
      one in Canada) also sell blackpowder muskets and arms that are made in India
      and they supply them with the touch hole at no greater price than he does.
      I can't believe they have a greater expense.

      I wouldn't worry about drilling the hole so much except that he puts that
      disclaimer on every page of every blackpowder firearm he sells that says he
      sells non-firing reproduction and can't be responsible if you drill the vent
      hole. " We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its present
      non-firing state." There's really no mistaking that quote regardless of
      what his excuse or side talk is. So, I choose to go elsewhere.

      I'm glad it works for you AND I know it has worked for others too. I'm just
      not going to buy anything for him with that disclaimer there.

      Respectfully I remain YMHS,
      Dan

      -
      Dan Gracia
      Virginia 7th Regiment
      Rifle company
      and
      Capt. John Warner's Company
      Green Mountain Rangers



      On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:12 PM, bolton1812 <bolton1812@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com>, Dan Gracia
      > <twisted1in66@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Also, be sure that you note that on the site that sells it's muskets
      > without
      > > the vent drilled that you void their warranty by drilling it. They
      > > officially sell their muskets as "non-firing" supposedly because it's
      > easier
      > > to ship them. Here's the statement you'll find at the bottom of the page
      > of
      > > each of their "drill your own hole" muskets:
      > >
      > > "We sell historically accurate muskets as a non-firing state. This allows
      > > us to comply with local, state, national and international firearms
      > > regulations. A certified gunsmith may alter this musket to a firing state
      > > by drilling the vent hole and test firing it. We are not legally
      > > responsible for any alteration from its present non-firing state."
      > >
      > > Notice the "we are not legally responsible" phrase. These are India-made
      > > muskets and other companies also supply India muskets and ship them in
      > North
      > > America with no problem with the vent drilled. Other companies that
      > compete
      > > with them at competitive prices are Loyalist Arms in Canada and Middlesex
      > > Village Trading Company. That said, there are a number of people who have
      > > muskets from Discriminating General and I haven't heard any complaints.
      > > Still, I was considering purchasing one of their muskets until I read
      > that
      > > last bit of print at the bottom of the page.
      > >
      > > Caveat Emptor.
      > >
      > > YMHS,
      > > Dan
      > > Dan,
      > I believe that selling them without the touch hole drilled is a financial
      > issue. I had a guy that was in the business of firearms tell me that a
      > "non-firing" weapon will not get the stiff "additional" costs and taxes,
      > etc. to the seller, that a ready to fire weapon will. All of these weapons
      > that I have seen, including the Sea Service musket I have from them, all had
      > a punch mark where the hole is to be drilled. I had drilled the touch hole
      > myself, took it to a qualified blackpowder gunsmith (Dixons near Reading
      > Pa.) and it passed with flying colors. It shoots like a charm, and actually
      > hits what I'm aiming at 50 yds. No problem.
      > Actually any blackpowder firearm, warrantied or not, you will have a
      > helluva time if something goes wrong. Too many human variables in these
      > kinda weapons that could lead to overcharging, etc. Not like a "modern"
      > firearm with cased rounds, highly machined parts, etc.
      > Cheers,
      > Bob Bolton
      > Pa. Associators
      > > --
      > > Dan Gracia
      > > Virginia 7th Regiment
      > > Rifle company
      > > and
      > > Capt. John Warner's Company
      > > Green Mountain Rangers
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Richard Staron <rstaron@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Not difficult. But if the bit busts while drilling it you will have to
      > > > over drill it and get a touchhole vent installed. jet a good DeWalt
      > drill
      > > > bit center punch it in the proper location and drill perpendicular to
      > the
      > > > flat. Use between 1/16 and 3/32 for the drill bit.
      > > >
      > > > --- On Sun, 5/31/09, OtterFox Fire <otterfoxfire@...<otterfoxfire%
      > 40yahoo.com>>
      > > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > From: OtterFox Fire <otterfoxfire@... <otterfoxfire%40yahoo.com>>
      > > > Subject: [Revlist] Drilling touch holes? -was -Does anybody have any
      > > > experience with these muskets?
      > > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> <Revlist%
      > 40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 8:22 PM
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I've noticed on this and another site they sell muskets with out their
      > > > touch holes drilled. Is it difficult to drill them out, or wise for the
      > > > average person?
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > _,_._,___
      >



      -


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dave Niescior
      The point is that selling a functioning firearm has costs associated with it that selling non functioning ones don t. This includes shipping, taxes, etc. Non
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 1, 2009
        The point is that selling a functioning firearm has costs associated with it that selling non functioning ones don't. This includes shipping, taxes, etc. Non drilled muskets also have the advantage that they can be transported and displayed fairly freely.

        The point of the disclaimer is so that they aren't liable if some idiot drills the hole wrong and blows his face off when the gun explodes.

        Dave
      • Dan Gracia
        Hi Dave, Not what their disclaimer says. The point is they are not responsible if you turn their gun into a firing replica. They don t say they aren t liable
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 2, 2009
          Hi Dave,

          Not what their disclaimer says. The point is they are not responsible if
          you turn their gun into a firing replica. They don't say they aren't liable
          if a qualified gunsmith turns it into a firing replica, they say;

          "*We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its present
          non-firing state*."

          If you turn it into a functional blackpowder firearm, they aren't
          responsible in any way for anything. They only sell non-firing replicas.
          No amount of hedging or rationalizing is going to change that statement that
          they have printed on every web page of every blackpowder "non-firing state"
          flintlock they sell.

          Sure there are more costs associated with drilling it. My point is their
          competitors manage to still sell a product at competitive prices while
          selling "firing state" flintlocks. Also, the shipping, taxes, etc aren't
          nearly as onerous as you seem to think. Flintlocks are classified as
          "antiques" and as "antique replicas" in the federal firearms codes in the
          US and are not subject to a lot the regs required for modern "real"
          firearms. I bought my first longrifle (Traditions PA Longrifle) at a store
          in Oregon one day and had it shipped to Vermont that same day. It cost me
          $10 and my signature. It was delivered to my door, not to a dealer where I
          had to pick it up...to my door. And it was a fully functional flintlock
          "with" drilled vent. Wow...that was difficult wasn't it?

          My second longrifle (Early Lancaster) was purchased from the builder/owner
          in Oregon and also "shipped to my door" in Virginia. Wow, that was
          difficult wasn't it...NOT! You can even take one across the border into
          Canada without any special permit. You have to show it to them and it's
          helpful to carry a copy of their regs which states you can bring it in with
          you, but you can bring it across the border just fine. You can't take a
          percussion cap blackpowder firearm across, but you can take a flintlock.
          This is NOT rocket science.

          I have personally shipped new modern firearms and yes, sending them is a
          much more restrictive. You can't ship those to someone's door - you have to
          ship it an FFL holder. Then they have to fill out the federal 4473 form and
          apply any state regulations that apply (various waiting periods, etc.) You
          have to keep accurrate records of the shipments and you have to reconcile
          the accuracy of your records on an annual basis. NONE of that applies to
          flintlocks. Yes there is a 10% excise tax on them (unless you are a builder
          and build fewer than 50 a year), but that excise tax also applies to every
          piece of fishing and hunting equipment you buy including hooks, lines,
          sinkers, lures, and flies. So, yes they are evading that excise tax.
          Everyone else pays it and still sells fully functioning flintlocks at
          competitive prices.

          I'm not saying that it can't be a fine gun once you've drilled the vent on
          it. You are welcome to choose to purchase that "non-firing state" replica,
          drill the vent, and use it to your heart's content. I am saying that I
          don't choose to purchase a "non-firing state" replica that is marketed as
          blackpowder firearm that doesn't have the vent drilled so they can more
          easily ship it to your door, and then they put that statement at the bottom
          of every page on their website that says, "We are not legally responsible
          for any alteration from its present non-firing state."

          If they were so worried about "some idiot drills the hole wrong and blows
          his face off" why don't they do like their competitors and drill the vent in
          the right place?

          There are other companies out there that actually ship you a functioning
          black powder flintlock for similar prices, so I choose to use one of those
          companies. You are welcome to choose whoever you like. I'm not saying you
          shouldn't purchase from them, just do it with your eyes open and fully
          aware of what they are really saying and doing.

          YMHS,
          Dan


          --
          Dan Gracia
          Virginia 7th Regiment
          Rifle company
          and
          Capt. John Warner's Company
          Green Mountain Rangers


          On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Dave Niescior
          <formativechicken@...>wrote:

          >
          >
          > The point is that selling a functioning firearm has costs associated with
          > it that selling non functioning ones don't. This includes shipping, taxes,
          > etc. Non drilled muskets also have the advantage that they can be
          > transported and displayed fairly freely.
          >
          > The point of the disclaimer is so that they aren't liable if some idiot
          > drills the hole wrong and blows his face off when the gun explodes.
          >
          > Dave
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Woolsey, David
          Correct! Any modification, even by a gunsmith, if that gunsmith was not an official warranty location (and they don t have anybody approved to do the
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 2, 2009
            Correct! Any modification, even by a gunsmith, if that gunsmith was not
            an official "warranty location" (and they don't have anybody approved to
            do the drilling) voids their liability. Not that they couldn't be sued,
            but they won't be defending themselves, their insurance company will be
            paying for the lawyer. Good luck collecting anything.





            I get my muskets sent to me with a drilled touch hole and a flashguard
            installed, but no lock installed. It is then "parts". The lock is
            shipped in a different box, and I put it in. And before anybody chimes
            in... putting in a lock and tightening the screws is not the same as
            converting from non-firing to firing condition. They market the two
            parts to be assembled and used in the manner described.



            YOHS



            Dave Woolsey



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Revlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Dan Gracia
            Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 7:32 AM
            To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Revlist] Re: Drilling touch holes? -was -Does anybody have
            any experience with these muskets?



            Note what their disclaimer says. The point is they are not responsible
            if
            you turn their gun into a firing replica. They don't say they aren't
            liable
            if a qualified gunsmith turns it into a firing replica, they say;

            "*We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its present
            non-firing state*."

            If you turn it into a functional blackpowder firearm, they aren't
            responsible in any way for anything. They only sell non-firing replicas.
            No amount of hedging or rationalizing is going to change that statement
            that
            they have printed on every web page of every blackpowder "non-firing
            state"
            flintlock they sell.





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Abraham Fisher
            I think the issue is one of liability, not cost. I don t think it matters whether the touchhole is drilled in the right place or not; the point is that by
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 2, 2009
              I think the issue is one of liability, not cost.

              I don't think it matters whether the touchhole is drilled in the right
              place or not; the point is that by selling a "non-firing replica" they
              are trying to avoid the possibility of getting sued because they sold
              a firearm which later was involved in a problem of some kind. That
              problem might be one that involves death or injury to the user, it
              might be one that involves use in a crime (OK, so the idea of somebody
              holding up the 7-11 with a Bess seems kind of laughable, but still),
              it might be one that involves death or injury to some third party.

              If they can legitimately say "you didn't use it the way it was
              intended when we sold it to you" then they are, theoretically, off the
              hook.

              I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know whether they really ARE off the hook
              or not, but I can see the logic of the position.

              It seems to me to be no different than the warnings you get on other
              things. Ladders come with all kinds of warnings saying "don't use it
              wrong, don't use it in certain ways, blah blah blah." Part of the
              purpose of the warning is to tell you that it might be dangerous to
              bump your aluminum ladder against a live wire, but part of it is also
              to say "and if you do, don't blame us; we told you."

              Abe

              On Jun 2, 2009, at 7:31 AM, Dan Gracia wrote:

              >
              >
              > Hi Dave,
              >
              > Not what their disclaimer says. The point is they are not
              > responsible if
              > you turn their gun into a firing replica. They don't say they aren't
              > liable
              > if a qualified gunsmith turns it into a firing replica, they say;
              >
              > "*We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its present
              > non-firing state*."
              >
              > If you turn it into a functional blackpowder firearm, they aren't
              > responsible in any way for anything. They only sell non-firing
              > replicas.
              > No amount of hedging or rationalizing is going to change that
              > statement that
              > they have printed on every web page of every blackpowder "non-firing
              > state"
              > flintlock they sell.
              >
              > Sure there are more costs associated with drilling it. My point is
              > their
              > competitors manage to still sell a product at competitive prices while
              > selling "firing state" flintlocks. Also, the shipping, taxes, etc
              > aren't
              > nearly as onerous as you seem to think. Flintlocks are classified as
              > "antiques" and as "antique replicas" in the federal firearms codes
              > in the
              > US and are not subject to a lot the regs required for modern "real"
              > firearms. I bought my first longrifle (Traditions PA Longrifle) at a
              > store
              > in Oregon one day and had it shipped to Vermont that same day. It
              > cost me
              > $10 and my signature. It was delivered to my door, not to a dealer
              > where I
              > had to pick it up...to my door. And it was a fully functional
              > flintlock
              > "with" drilled vent. Wow...that was difficult wasn't it?
              >
              > My second longrifle (Early Lancaster) was purchased from the builder/
              > owner
              > in Oregon and also "shipped to my door" in Virginia. Wow, that was
              > difficult wasn't it...NOT! You can even take one across the border
              > into
              > Canada without any special permit. You have to show it to them and
              > it's
              > helpful to carry a copy of their regs which states you can bring it
              > in with
              > you, but you can bring it across the border just fine. You can't
              > take a
              > percussion cap blackpowder firearm across, but you can take a
              > flintlock.
              > This is NOT rocket science.
              >
              > I have personally shipped new modern firearms and yes, sending them
              > is a
              > much more restrictive. You can't ship those to someone's door - you
              > have to
              > ship it an FFL holder. Then they have to fill out the federal 4473
              > form and
              > apply any state regulations that apply (various waiting periods,
              > etc.) You
              > have to keep accurrate records of the shipments and you have to
              > reconcile
              > the accuracy of your records on an annual basis. NONE of that
              > applies to
              > flintlocks. Yes there is a 10% excise tax on them (unless you are a
              > builder
              > and build fewer than 50 a year), but that excise tax also applies to
              > every
              > piece of fishing and hunting equipment you buy including hooks, lines,
              > sinkers, lures, and flies. So, yes they are evading that excise tax.
              > Everyone else pays it and still sells fully functioning flintlocks at
              > competitive prices.
              >
              > I'm not saying that it can't be a fine gun once you've drilled the
              > vent on
              > it. You are welcome to choose to purchase that "non-firing state"
              > replica,
              > drill the vent, and use it to your heart's content. I am saying that I
              > don't choose to purchase a "non-firing state" replica that is
              > marketed as
              > blackpowder firearm that doesn't have the vent drilled so they can
              > more
              > easily ship it to your door, and then they put that statement at the
              > bottom
              > of every page on their website that says, "We are not legally
              > responsible
              > for any alteration from its present non-firing state."
              >
              > If they were so worried about "some idiot drills the hole wrong and
              > blows
              > his face off" why don't they do like their competitors and drill the
              > vent in
              > the right place?
              >
              > There are other companies out there that actually ship you a
              > functioning
              > black powder flintlock for similar prices, so I choose to use one of
              > those
              > companies. You are welcome to choose whoever you like. I'm not
              > saying you
              > shouldn't purchase from them, just do it with your eyes open and fully
              > aware of what they are really saying and doing.
              >
              > YMHS,
              > Dan
              >
              > --
              > Dan Gracia
              > Virginia 7th Regiment
              > Rifle company
              > and
              > Capt. John Warner's Company
              > Green Mountain Rangers
              >
              > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Dave Niescior
              > <formativechicken@...>wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > The point is that selling a functioning firearm has costs
              > associated with
              > > it that selling non functioning ones don't. This includes
              > shipping, taxes,
              > > etc. Non drilled muskets also have the advantage that they can be
              > > transported and displayed fairly freely.
              > >
              > > The point of the disclaimer is so that they aren't liable if some
              > idiot
              > > drills the hole wrong and blows his face off when the gun explodes.
              > >
              > > Dave
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Ogden
              Abe et alia, Let me preface this by saying that I am a paralegal and go to law school at night, and so I am not an attorney. I have not yet taken the bar
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 2, 2009
                Abe et alia,

                Let me preface this by saying that I am a paralegal and go to law
                school at night, and so I am not an attorney. I have not yet taken the bar
                exam, and so my thoughts here are NOT to be taken as sound legal advice, but
                rather as an intellectual appraisal of a hypothetical scenario such as I
                might be presented with on an exam. I further suggest that any member of
                this list consult their own insurer or legal representative for a more
                definitive answer on the subject rather than act on the basis of my
                reasoning.

                That being said, I believe that Abe is pretty much spot-on. In regards
                to product liability, tort law generally disallows manufacturer/seller
                liability if the consumer deliberately alters or uses the product in a way
                not intended by the manufacturer. While we could argue that the
                manufacturer and retailer both know exactly what we, the end-users, are
                going to do with the products, the general weight of case law and legal
                decision is on the side of DG and any other retailer selling the weapons
                without touch holes. The short version is that if you buy one of these and
                then by some sequence of events, however common and reasonably foreseeable
                or bizarre and outlandish, an injury results, you are unlikely to be able to
                recover any damages as the law now stands (very pro-business). Please note
                that DG does not mention that the mark on the barrel is located where the
                touch hole should be, nor do they offer any advice on how to make the musket
                operational. This strengthens any argument they might make regarding how
                you, the injured consumer, brought this on yourself and that they, the
                manufacturers and retailers, are not liable. You could conceivably win an
                action against DG or their supplier, but the legal wrangling would be
                protracted (read as "costly") if it ever got past a judge without
                being summarily dismissed. My personal advice as a a reenactor is to spend
                the extra $80 and buy from Loyalist or Middlesex (I have done so and will do
                so again), or else spend a bit more and buy Italian or custom.



                On 6/2/09, Abraham Fisher <abefisher@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > I think the issue is one of liability, not cost.
                >
                > I don't think it matters whether the touchhole is drilled in the right
                > place or not; the point is that by selling a "non-firing replica" they
                > are trying to avoid the possibility of getting sued because they sold
                > a firearm which later was involved in a problem of some kind. That
                > problem might be one that involves death or injury to the user, it
                > might be one that involves use in a crime (OK, so the idea of somebody
                > holding up the 7-11 with a Bess seems kind of laughable, but still),
                > it might be one that involves death or injury to some third party.
                >
                > If they can legitimately say "you didn't use it the way it was
                > intended when we sold it to you" then they are, theoretically, off the
                > hook.
                >
                > I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know whether they really ARE off the hook
                > or not, but I can see the logic of the position.
                >
                > It seems to me to be no different than the warnings you get on other
                > things. Ladders come with all kinds of warnings saying "don't use it
                > wrong, don't use it in certain ways, blah blah blah." Part of the
                > purpose of the warning is to tell you that it might be dangerous to
                > bump your aluminum ladder against a live wire, but part of it is also
                > to say "and if you do, don't blame us; we told you."
                >
                > Abe
                >
                > On Jun 2, 2009, at 7:31 AM, Dan Gracia wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi Dave,
                > >
                > > Not what their disclaimer says. The point is they are not
                > > responsible if
                > > you turn their gun into a firing replica. They don't say they aren't
                > > liable
                > > if a qualified gunsmith turns it into a firing replica, they say;
                > >
                > > "*We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its present
                > > non-firing state*."
                > >
                > > If you turn it into a functional blackpowder firearm, they aren't
                > > responsible in any way for anything. They only sell non-firing
                > > replicas.
                > > No amount of hedging or rationalizing is going to change that
                > > statement that
                > > they have printed on every web page of every blackpowder "non-firing
                > > state"
                > > flintlock they sell.
                > >
                > > Sure there are more costs associated with drilling it. My point is
                > > their
                > > competitors manage to still sell a product at competitive prices while
                > > selling "firing state" flintlocks. Also, the shipping, taxes, etc
                > > aren't
                > > nearly as onerous as you seem to think. Flintlocks are classified as
                > > "antiques" and as "antique replicas" in the federal firearms codes
                > > in the
                > > US and are not subject to a lot the regs required for modern "real"
                > > firearms. I bought my first longrifle (Traditions PA Longrifle) at a
                > > store
                > > in Oregon one day and had it shipped to Vermont that same day. It
                > > cost me
                > > $10 and my signature. It was delivered to my door, not to a dealer
                > > where I
                > > had to pick it up...to my door. And it was a fully functional
                > > flintlock
                > > "with" drilled vent. Wow...that was difficult wasn't it?
                > >
                > > My second longrifle (Early Lancaster) was purchased from the builder/
                > > owner
                > > in Oregon and also "shipped to my door" in Virginia. Wow, that was
                > > difficult wasn't it...NOT! You can even take one across the border
                > > into
                > > Canada without any special permit. You have to show it to them and
                > > it's
                > > helpful to carry a copy of their regs which states you can bring it
                > > in with
                > > you, but you can bring it across the border just fine. You can't
                > > take a
                > > percussion cap blackpowder firearm across, but you can take a
                > > flintlock.
                > > This is NOT rocket science.
                > >
                > > I have personally shipped new modern firearms and yes, sending them
                > > is a
                > > much more restrictive. You can't ship those to someone's door - you
                > > have to
                > > ship it an FFL holder. Then they have to fill out the federal 4473
                > > form and
                > > apply any state regulations that apply (various waiting periods,
                > > etc.) You
                > > have to keep accurrate records of the shipments and you have to
                > > reconcile
                > > the accuracy of your records on an annual basis. NONE of that
                > > applies to
                > > flintlocks. Yes there is a 10% excise tax on them (unless you are a
                > > builder
                > > and build fewer than 50 a year), but that excise tax also applies to
                > > every
                > > piece of fishing and hunting equipment you buy including hooks, lines,
                > > sinkers, lures, and flies. So, yes they are evading that excise tax.
                > > Everyone else pays it and still sells fully functioning flintlocks at
                > > competitive prices.
                > >
                > > I'm not saying that it can't be a fine gun once you've drilled the
                > > vent on
                > > it. You are welcome to choose to purchase that "non-firing state"
                > > replica,
                > > drill the vent, and use it to your heart's content. I am saying that I
                > > don't choose to purchase a "non-firing state" replica that is
                > > marketed as
                > > blackpowder firearm that doesn't have the vent drilled so they can
                > > more
                > > easily ship it to your door, and then they put that statement at the
                > > bottom
                > > of every page on their website that says, "We are not legally
                > > responsible
                > > for any alteration from its present non-firing state."
                > >
                > > If they were so worried about "some idiot drills the hole wrong and
                > > blows
                > > his face off" why don't they do like their competitors and drill the
                > > vent in
                > > the right place?
                > >
                > > There are other companies out there that actually ship you a
                > > functioning
                > > black powder flintlock for similar prices, so I choose to use one of
                > > those
                > > companies. You are welcome to choose whoever you like. I'm not
                > > saying you
                > > shouldn't purchase from them, just do it with your eyes open and fully
                > > aware of what they are really saying and doing.
                > >
                > > YMHS,
                > > Dan
                > >
                > > --
                > > Dan Gracia
                > > Virginia 7th Regiment
                > > Rifle company
                > > and
                > > Capt. John Warner's Company
                > > Green Mountain Rangers
                > >
                > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Dave Niescior
                > > <formativechicken@... <formativechicken%40yahoo.com>>wrote:
                > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > The point is that selling a functioning firearm has costs
                > > associated with
                > > > it that selling non functioning ones don't. This includes
                > > shipping, taxes,
                > > > etc. Non drilled muskets also have the advantage that they can be
                > > > transported and displayed fairly freely.
                > > >
                > > > The point of the disclaimer is so that they aren't liable if some
                > > idiot
                > > > drills the hole wrong and blows his face off when the gun explodes.
                > > >
                > > > Dave
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >



                --
                John J. Ogden

                �Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
                in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
                particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?� -- James
                Madison, June 20, 1785

                "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense,
                founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of
                enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and, as the
                said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any
                Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising
                from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
                existing between the two countries." -- Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace
                and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli
                of Barbary, 3 Junad 1211 (Muslim calendar), 4 November 1796 C.E..


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • bolton1812
                ... Dan, Please see the next reply after yours from Dave. Very well stated! The reason IS, is that there are costs to a dealer associated with selling a
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 2, 2009
                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Dan Gracia <twisted1in66@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Bob,
                  >
                  > I don't buy that excuse simply because his competitors (one in the US and
                  > one in Canada) also sell blackpowder muskets and arms that are made in India
                  > and they supply them with the touch hole at no greater price than he does.
                  > I can't believe they have a greater expense.
                  >
                  > I wouldn't worry about drilling the hole so much except that he puts that
                  > disclaimer on every page of every blackpowder firearm he sells that says he
                  > sells non-firing reproduction and can't be responsible if you drill the vent
                  > hole. " We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its present
                  > non-firing state." There's really no mistaking that quote regardless of
                  > what his excuse or side talk is. So, I choose to go elsewhere.
                  >
                  > I'm glad it works for you AND I know it has worked for others too. I'm just
                  > not going to buy anything for him with that disclaimer there.
                  >
                  > Respectfully I remain YMHS,
                  > Dan
                  >
                  > -
                  > Dan Gracia
                  > Virginia 7th Regiment
                  > Rifle company
                  > and
                  > Capt. John Warner's Company
                  > Green Mountain Rangers
                  >

                  Dan,
                  Please see the next reply after yours from Dave. Very well stated!
                  The reason IS, is that there are costs to a dealer associated with selling a functional ( fireable right from the box) rather than a what is termed, "non-functioning" piece...period. The cost HE saves is passed on to the customer by giving the customer a more inexpensive weapon. And he deals with less (especially) post 9/11 red tape BS. I think your freaking yourself out over nothing, man...but to each his own.
                  Any firearm (replica, or modern) will have clauses in the warranty, or sales agreement, to some degree or another. Any blackpowder firearm I ever owned ( now at about 14) ALL stated that the user is soley responsible for the use of the firearm, and the seller is not responsible for any alteration to the origional piece. And except for two that I own from said company, , these are all pre drilled pieces. The drilling of these touch holes is less an alteration than it is just making something functional.
                  Look, if this guy was selling something that definitly should just hang on a wall and NEVER be made functional...he would have more legal disclaimers than he has, and he would state it clearly and probably in big freekin bold red letters..."these weapons are for show ONLY!" Ya think?
                  Cheers,
                  Bob Bolton
                  Pa. Associators
                  >
                  >
                  > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:12 PM, bolton1812 <bolton1812@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com>, Dan Gracia
                  > > <twisted1in66@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Also, be sure that you note that on the site that sells it's muskets
                  > > without
                  > > > the vent drilled that you void their warranty by drilling it. They
                  > > > officially sell their muskets as "non-firing" supposedly because it's
                  > > easier
                  > > > to ship them. Here's the statement you'll find at the bottom of the page
                  > > of
                  > > > each of their "drill your own hole" muskets:
                  > > >
                  > > > "We sell historically accurate muskets as a non-firing state. This allows
                  > > > us to comply with local, state, national and international firearms
                  > > > regulations. A certified gunsmith may alter this musket to a firing state
                  > > > by drilling the vent hole and test firing it. We are not legally
                  > > > responsible for any alteration from its present non-firing state."
                  > > >
                  > > > Notice the "we are not legally responsible" phrase. These are India-made
                  > > > muskets and other companies also supply India muskets and ship them in
                  > > North
                  > > > America with no problem with the vent drilled. Other companies that
                  > > compete
                  > > > with them at competitive prices are Loyalist Arms in Canada and Middlesex
                  > > > Village Trading Company. That said, there are a number of people who have
                  > > > muskets from Discriminating General and I haven't heard any complaints.
                  > > > Still, I was considering purchasing one of their muskets until I read
                  > > that
                  > > > last bit of print at the bottom of the page.
                  > > >
                  > > > Caveat Emptor.
                  > > >
                  > > > YMHS,
                  > > > Dan
                  > > > Dan,
                  > > I believe that selling them without the touch hole drilled is a financial
                  > > issue. I had a guy that was in the business of firearms tell me that a
                  > > "non-firing" weapon will not get the stiff "additional" costs and taxes,
                  > > etc. to the seller, that a ready to fire weapon will. All of these weapons
                  > > that I have seen, including the Sea Service musket I have from them, all had
                  > > a punch mark where the hole is to be drilled. I had drilled the touch hole
                  > > myself, took it to a qualified blackpowder gunsmith (Dixons near Reading
                  > > Pa.) and it passed with flying colors. It shoots like a charm, and actually
                  > > hits what I'm aiming at 50 yds. No problem.
                  > > Actually any blackpowder firearm, warrantied or not, you will have a
                  > > helluva time if something goes wrong. Too many human variables in these
                  > > kinda weapons that could lead to overcharging, etc. Not like a "modern"
                  > > firearm with cased rounds, highly machined parts, etc.
                  > > Cheers,
                  > > Bob Bolton
                  > > Pa. Associators
                  > > > --
                  > > > Dan Gracia
                  > > > Virginia 7th Regiment
                  > > > Rifle company
                  > > > and
                  > > > Capt. John Warner's Company
                  > > > Green Mountain Rangers
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Richard Staron <rstaron@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Not difficult. But if the bit busts while drilling it you will have to
                  > > > > over drill it and get a touchhole vent installed. jet a good DeWalt
                  > > drill
                  > > > > bit center punch it in the proper location and drill perpendicular to
                  > > the
                  > > > > flat. Use between 1/16 and 3/32 for the drill bit.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- On Sun, 5/31/09, OtterFox Fire <otterfoxfire@<otterfoxfire%
                  > > 40yahoo.com>>
                  > > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > From: OtterFox Fire <otterfoxfire@ <otterfoxfire%40yahoo.com>>
                  > > > > Subject: [Revlist] Drilling touch holes? -was -Does anybody have any
                  > > > > experience with these muskets?
                  > > > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> <Revlist%
                  > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 8:22 PM
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I've noticed on this and another site they sell muskets with out their
                  > > > > touch holes drilled. Is it difficult to drill them out, or wise for the
                  > > > > average person?
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > _,_._,___
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • bolton1812
                  ... Abe, I own two of these muskets. Three other folks I know own one or more and they all came with a punch mark already in place as to where the touch hole
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 2, 2009
                    --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Abraham Fisher <abefisher@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I think the issue is one of liability, not cost.
                    >
                    > I don't think it matters whether the touchhole is drilled in the right
                    > place or not; the point is that by selling a "non-firing replica" they
                    > are trying to avoid the possibility of getting sued because they sold
                    > a firearm which later was involved in a problem of some kind. That
                    > problem might be one that involves death or injury to the user, it
                    > might be one that involves use in a crime (OK, so the idea of somebody
                    > holding up the 7-11 with a Bess seems kind of laughable, but still),
                    > it might be one that involves death or injury to some third party.
                    >
                    > If they can legitimately say "you didn't use it the way it was
                    > intended when we sold it to you" then they are, theoretically, off the
                    > hook.
                    >
                    > I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know whether they really ARE off the hook
                    > or not, but I can see the logic of the position.
                    >
                    > It seems to me to be no different than the warnings you get on other
                    > things. Ladders come with all kinds of warnings saying "don't use it
                    > wrong, don't use it in certain ways, blah blah blah." Part of the
                    > purpose of the warning is to tell you that it might be dangerous to
                    > bump your aluminum ladder against a live wire, but part of it is also
                    > to say "and if you do, don't blame us; we told you."
                    >
                    > Abe

                    Abe,
                    I own two of these muskets. Three other folks I know own one or more and they all came with a punch mark already in place as to where the touch hole can be drilled if desired. I ( and my pards) have had these weapons looked at by some very qualified professional blackpowder gunsmiths and none of them got a bad mark other than that the wood was off ( yea, thats been covered already ). The dealer simply chooses to have them imported without the touch hole pre drilled because there's less hassle at the port authority, customs, BATF, Yada, yada, blah, blah...
                    Cheers,
                    Bob Bolton
                    Pa. Associators
                    >
                    > On Jun 2, 2009, at 7:31 AM, Dan Gracia wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hi Dave,
                    > >
                    > > Not what their disclaimer says. The point is they are not
                    > > responsible if
                    > > you turn their gun into a firing replica. They don't say they aren't
                    > > liable
                    > > if a qualified gunsmith turns it into a firing replica, they say;
                    > >
                    > > "*We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its present
                    > > non-firing state*."
                    > >
                    > > If you turn it into a functional blackpowder firearm, they aren't
                    > > responsible in any way for anything. They only sell non-firing
                    > > replicas.
                    > > No amount of hedging or rationalizing is going to change that
                    > > statement that
                    > > they have printed on every web page of every blackpowder "non-firing
                    > > state"
                    > > flintlock they sell.
                    > >
                    > > Sure there are more costs associated with drilling it. My point is
                    > > their
                    > > competitors manage to still sell a product at competitive prices while
                    > > selling "firing state" flintlocks. Also, the shipping, taxes, etc
                    > > aren't
                    > > nearly as onerous as you seem to think. Flintlocks are classified as
                    > > "antiques" and as "antique replicas" in the federal firearms codes
                    > > in the
                    > > US and are not subject to a lot the regs required for modern "real"
                    > > firearms. I bought my first longrifle (Traditions PA Longrifle) at a
                    > > store
                    > > in Oregon one day and had it shipped to Vermont that same day. It
                    > > cost me
                    > > $10 and my signature. It was delivered to my door, not to a dealer
                    > > where I
                    > > had to pick it up...to my door. And it was a fully functional
                    > > flintlock
                    > > "with" drilled vent. Wow...that was difficult wasn't it?
                    > >
                    > > My second longrifle (Early Lancaster) was purchased from the builder/
                    > > owner
                    > > in Oregon and also "shipped to my door" in Virginia. Wow, that was
                    > > difficult wasn't it...NOT! You can even take one across the border
                    > > into
                    > > Canada without any special permit. You have to show it to them and
                    > > it's
                    > > helpful to carry a copy of their regs which states you can bring it
                    > > in with
                    > > you, but you can bring it across the border just fine. You can't
                    > > take a
                    > > percussion cap blackpowder firearm across, but you can take a
                    > > flintlock.
                    > > This is NOT rocket science.
                    > >
                    > > I have personally shipped new modern firearms and yes, sending them
                    > > is a
                    > > much more restrictive. You can't ship those to someone's door - you
                    > > have to
                    > > ship it an FFL holder. Then they have to fill out the federal 4473
                    > > form and
                    > > apply any state regulations that apply (various waiting periods,
                    > > etc.) You
                    > > have to keep accurrate records of the shipments and you have to
                    > > reconcile
                    > > the accuracy of your records on an annual basis. NONE of that
                    > > applies to
                    > > flintlocks. Yes there is a 10% excise tax on them (unless you are a
                    > > builder
                    > > and build fewer than 50 a year), but that excise tax also applies to
                    > > every
                    > > piece of fishing and hunting equipment you buy including hooks, lines,
                    > > sinkers, lures, and flies. So, yes they are evading that excise tax.
                    > > Everyone else pays it and still sells fully functioning flintlocks at
                    > > competitive prices.
                    > >
                    > > I'm not saying that it can't be a fine gun once you've drilled the
                    > > vent on
                    > > it. You are welcome to choose to purchase that "non-firing state"
                    > > replica,
                    > > drill the vent, and use it to your heart's content. I am saying that I
                    > > don't choose to purchase a "non-firing state" replica that is
                    > > marketed as
                    > > blackpowder firearm that doesn't have the vent drilled so they can
                    > > more
                    > > easily ship it to your door, and then they put that statement at the
                    > > bottom
                    > > of every page on their website that says, "We are not legally
                    > > responsible
                    > > for any alteration from its present non-firing state."
                    > >
                    > > If they were so worried about "some idiot drills the hole wrong and
                    > > blows
                    > > his face off" why don't they do like their competitors and drill the
                    > > vent in
                    > > the right place?
                    > >
                    > > There are other companies out there that actually ship you a
                    > > functioning
                    > > black powder flintlock for similar prices, so I choose to use one of
                    > > those
                    > > companies. You are welcome to choose whoever you like. I'm not
                    > > saying you
                    > > shouldn't purchase from them, just do it with your eyes open and fully
                    > > aware of what they are really saying and doing.
                    > >
                    > > YMHS,
                    > > Dan
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > Dan Gracia
                    > > Virginia 7th Regiment
                    > > Rifle company
                    > > and
                    > > Capt. John Warner's Company
                    > > Green Mountain Rangers
                    > >
                    > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Dave Niescior
                    > > <formativechicken@...>wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > The point is that selling a functioning firearm has costs
                    > > associated with
                    > > > it that selling non functioning ones don't. This includes
                    > > shipping, taxes,
                    > > > etc. Non drilled muskets also have the advantage that they can be
                    > > > transported and displayed fairly freely.
                    > > >
                    > > > The point of the disclaimer is so that they aren't liable if some
                    > > idiot
                    > > > drills the hole wrong and blows his face off when the gun explodes.
                    > > >
                    > > > Dave
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Dan Gracia
                    Hi Bob, Yes, I think Dave stated it quite well. To put it bluntly, in my opinion, DG is blowing smoke up where the sun don t shine. WHAT are the extra costs
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 3, 2009
                      Hi Bob,

                      Yes, I think Dave stated it quite well.

                      To put it bluntly, in my opinion, DG is blowing smoke up where the sun don't
                      shine. WHAT are the extra costs of selling and transporting a functional
                      flintlock as opposed to selling one that you tell people to drill a hole in
                      to make it work, but if you alter it from its non-firing state they are not
                      legally liable? The ONLY thing they avoid is the excise tax. There are no
                      BATF hassles. BATF doesn't care about flintlocks - they classify them as
                      antiques. It's perfectly legal to transport flintlocks across the US/Canada
                      border. So I have to ask you, what are the extra costs of selling one?

                      There are no extra shipping requirements for flintlocks! I've shipped
                      flintlocks and I've shipped new modern firearms. You put the flintlock in a
                      box and call UPS, FedEx, etc., to pick it up (or take it to them). I would
                      ship it the same as a shovel except that I'd pack it very carefully.

                      Modern firearms I can ship new only to a Federal Firearms License (FFL)
                      holder. I can repair your firearm and ship it directly back to you because
                      you already own it and shipped or delivered it to me, but can only ship a
                      new modern firearm to an FFL holder. Yes there are restrictions in shipping
                      modern firearms, federal forms to fill out and mandatory waiting periods in
                      various states. I've had to reconcile FFL records showing serial number of
                      each firearm, date of receipt of firearm, disposition of firearm including
                      date of shipment, addressee of shipment, and address of shipment. NONE of
                      that applies to flintlocks. The only difference is that he's avoiding the
                      excise tax and he's blowing smoke at you.

                      Regarding your statement, "The drilling of these touch holes is less an
                      alteration than it is just making something functional.", just see how
                      legally viable that is against his statement, " We are not legally
                      responsible for any alteration from its present non-firing state." Case
                      dismissed!

                      My feelings have nothing to do with the quality of his product, how well
                      they shoot, or how easy it is to drill the touchhole. It is totally about
                      him marketing these to be used by reenactors and blackpowder enthusiasts and
                      then placing his disclaimer on each one that he's not responsible if you
                      turn it into what he's telling you it is so good for. His claims about why
                      he doesn't drill a vent look very bogus to me. I've legally shipped both
                      flintlocks and modern firearms and the only thing he is avoiding is the
                      excise tax and ANY resposibility if he produces a sub-par or even
                      dangerously malfunctioning flintlock. Mind you, I'm not saying he ever
                      has. I just would rather deal with someone who is more, shall we say,
                      "straightforward" than that.

                      Feel free to purchase whatever you like from him and I sincerely hope that
                      it works as well or better than you expect and gives you many years of
                      trouble-free use. Just don't try to tell me he's avoiding anything more
                      than the excise tax and liabilities by shipping them in their "non-firing
                      state", because that just isn't so.

                      By the way, at least one of his competitors will give you a substantail
                      "volume discount" if your unit purchases at least 3 flintlocks in any
                      combination of models.

                      YMHS,
                      Dan



                      On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:35 PM, bolton1812 <bolton1812@...> wrote:


                      Dan,
                      Please see the next reply after yours from Dave. Very well stated!
                      The reason IS, is that there are costs to a dealer associated with selling a
                      functional ( fireable right from the box) rather than a what is termed,
                      "non-functioning" piece...period. The cost HE saves is passed on to the
                      customer by giving the customer a more inexpensive weapon. And he deals with
                      less (especially) post 9/11 red tape BS. I think your freaking yourself out
                      over nothing, man...but to each his own.
                      Any firearm (replica, or modern) will have clauses in the warranty, or sales
                      agreement, to some degree or another. Any blackpowder firearm I ever owned (
                      now at about 14) ALL stated that the user is soley responsible for the use
                      of the firearm, and the seller is not responsible for any alteration to the
                      origional piece. And except for two that I own from said company, , these
                      are all pre drilled pieces. The drilling of these touch holes is less an
                      alteration than it is just making something functional.
                      Look, if this guy was selling something that definitly should just hang on a
                      wall and NEVER be made functional...he would have more legal disclaimers
                      than he has, and he would state it clearly and probably in big freekin bold
                      red letters..."these weapons are for show ONLY!" Ya think?
                      Cheers,
                      Bob Bolton
                      Pa. Associators




                      >
                      > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com>, Dan Gracia
                      > <twisted1in66@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Bob,
                      > >
                      > > I don't buy that excuse simply because his competitors (one in the US and
                      > > one in Canada) also sell blackpowder muskets and arms that are made in
                      > India
                      > > and they supply them with the touch hole at no greater price than he
                      > does.
                      > > I can't believe they have a greater expense.
                      > >
                      > > I wouldn't worry about drilling the hole so much except that he puts that
                      > > disclaimer on every page of every blackpowder firearm he sells that says
                      > he
                      > > sells non-firing reproduction and can't be responsible if you drill the
                      > vent
                      > > hole. " We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its
                      > present
                      > > non-firing state." There's really no mistaking that quote regardless of
                      > > what his excuse or side talk is. So, I choose to go elsewhere.
                      > >
                      > > I'm glad it works for you AND I know it has worked for others too. I'm
                      > just
                      > > not going to buy anything for him with that disclaimer there.
                      > >
                      > > Respectfully I remain YMHS,
                      > > Dan
                      > >
                      > > -
                      > > Dan Gracia
                      > > Virginia 7th Regiment
                      > > Rifle company
                      > > and
                      > > Capt. John Warner's Company
                      > > Green Mountain Rangers
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> <Revlist%
                      > 40yahoogroups.com>, Dan Gracia
                      >
                      > > > <twisted1in66@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Also, be sure that you note that on the site that sells it's muskets
                      > > > without
                      > > > > the vent drilled that you void their warranty by drilling it. They
                      > > > > officially sell their muskets as "non-firing" supposedly because it's
                      > > > easier
                      > > > > to ship them. Here's the statement you'll find at the bottom of the
                      > page
                      > > > of
                      > > > > each of their "drill your own hole" muskets:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > "We sell historically accurate muskets as a non-firing state. This
                      > allows
                      > > > > us to comply with local, state, national and international firearms
                      > > > > regulations. A certified gunsmith may alter this musket to a firing
                      > state
                      > > > > by drilling the vent hole and test firing it. We are not legally
                      > > > > responsible for any alteration from its present non-firing state."
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Notice the "we are not legally responsible" phrase. These are
                      > India-made
                      > > > > muskets and other companies also supply India muskets and ship them
                      > in
                      > > > North
                      > > > > America with no problem with the vent drilled. Other companies that
                      > > > compete
                      > > > > with them at competitive prices are Loyalist Arms in Canada and
                      > Middlesex
                      > > > > Village Trading Company. That said, there are a number of people who
                      > have
                      > > > > muskets from Discriminating General and I haven't heard any
                      > complaints.
                      > > > > Still, I was considering purchasing one of their muskets until I read
                      > > > that
                      > > > > last bit of print at the bottom of the page.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Caveat Emptor.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > YMHS,
                      > > > > Dan
                      > > > > Dan,
                      > > > I believe that selling them without the touch hole drilled is a
                      > financial
                      > > > issue. I had a guy that was in the business of firearms tell me that a
                      > > > "non-firing" weapon will not get the stiff "additional" costs and
                      > taxes,
                      > > > etc. to the seller, that a ready to fire weapon will. All of these
                      > weapons
                      > > > that I have seen, including the Sea Service musket I have from them,
                      > all had
                      > > > a punch mark where the hole is to be drilled. I had drilled the touch
                      > hole
                      > > > myself, took it to a qualified blackpowder gunsmith (Dixons near
                      > Reading
                      > > > Pa.) and it passed with flying colors. It shoots like a charm, and
                      > actually
                      > > > hits what I'm aiming at 50 yds. No problem.
                      > > > Actually any blackpowder firearm, warrantied or not, you will have a
                      > > > helluva time if something goes wrong. Too many human variables in these
                      > > > kinda weapons that could lead to overcharging, etc. Not like a "modern"
                      > > > firearm with cased rounds, highly machined parts, etc.
                      > > > Cheers,
                      > > > Bob Bolton
                      > > > Pa. Associators
                      > > > > --
                      > > > > Dan Gracia
                      > > > > Virginia 7th Regiment
                      > > > > Rifle company
                      > > > > and
                      > > > > Capt. John Warner's Company
                      > > > > Green Mountain Rangers
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Richard Staron <rstaron@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Not difficult. But if the bit busts while drilling it you will have
                      > to
                      > > > > > over drill it and get a touchhole vent installed. jet a good DeWalt
                      > > > drill
                      > > > > > bit center punch it in the proper location and drill perpendicular
                      > to
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > flat. Use between 1/16 and 3/32 for the drill bit.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- On Sun, 5/31/09, OtterFox Fire <otterfoxfire@<otterfoxfire%
                      > > > 40yahoo.com>>
                      > > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > From: OtterFox Fire <otterfoxfire@ <otterfoxfire%40yahoo.com>>
                      > > > > > Subject: [Revlist] Drilling touch holes? -was -Does anybody have
                      > any
                      > > > > > experience with these muskets?
                      > > > > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> <Revlist%
                      > 40yahoogroups.com> <Revlist%
                      > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > > > Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 8:22 PM
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I've noticed on this and another site they sell muskets with out
                      > their
                      > > > > > touch holes drilled. Is it difficult to drill them out, or wise for
                      > the
                      > > > > > average person?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > >
                      > > > _,_._,___
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      --
                      Dan Gracia
                      Virginia 7th Regiment
                      Rifle company
                      and
                      Capt. John Warner's Company
                      Green Mountain Rangers


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • bolton1812
                      ... Dan, ...very well, we shall agree to disagree. Cheers, Bob
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 4, 2009
                        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Dan Gracia <twisted1in66@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Bob,
                        >
                        > Yes, I think Dave stated it quite well.
                        >
                        > To put it bluntly, in my opinion, DG is blowing smoke up where the sun don't
                        > shine. WHAT are the extra costs of selling and transporting a functional
                        > flintlock as opposed to selling one that you tell people to drill a hole in
                        > to make it work, but if you alter it from its non-firing state they are not
                        > legally liable? The ONLY thing they avoid is the excise tax. There are no
                        > BATF hassles. BATF doesn't care about flintlocks - they classify them as
                        > antiques. It's perfectly legal to transport flintlocks across the US/Canada
                        > border. So I have to ask you, what are the extra costs of selling one?
                        >
                        > There are no extra shipping requirements for flintlocks! I've shipped
                        > flintlocks and I've shipped new modern firearms. You put the flintlock in a
                        > box and call UPS, FedEx, etc., to pick it up (or take it to them). I would
                        > ship it the same as a shovel except that I'd pack it very carefully.
                        >
                        > Modern firearms I can ship new only to a Federal Firearms License (FFL)
                        > holder. I can repair your firearm and ship it directly back to you because
                        > you already own it and shipped or delivered it to me, but can only ship a
                        > new modern firearm to an FFL holder. Yes there are restrictions in shipping
                        > modern firearms, federal forms to fill out and mandatory waiting periods in
                        > various states. I've had to reconcile FFL records showing serial number of
                        > each firearm, date of receipt of firearm, disposition of firearm including
                        > date of shipment, addressee of shipment, and address of shipment. NONE of
                        > that applies to flintlocks. The only difference is that he's avoiding the
                        > excise tax and he's blowing smoke at you.
                        >
                        > Regarding your statement, "The drilling of these touch holes is less an
                        > alteration than it is just making something functional.", just see how
                        > legally viable that is against his statement, " We are not legally
                        > responsible for any alteration from its present non-firing state." Case
                        > dismissed!
                        >
                        > My feelings have nothing to do with the quality of his product, how well
                        > they shoot, or how easy it is to drill the touchhole. It is totally about
                        > him marketing these to be used by reenactors and blackpowder enthusiasts and
                        > then placing his disclaimer on each one that he's not responsible if you
                        > turn it into what he's telling you it is so good for. His claims about why
                        > he doesn't drill a vent look very bogus to me. I've legally shipped both
                        > flintlocks and modern firearms and the only thing he is avoiding is the
                        > excise tax and ANY resposibility if he produces a sub-par or even
                        > dangerously malfunctioning flintlock. Mind you, I'm not saying he ever
                        > has. I just would rather deal with someone who is more, shall we say,
                        > "straightforward" than that.
                        >
                        > Feel free to purchase whatever you like from him and I sincerely hope that
                        > it works as well or better than you expect and gives you many years of
                        > trouble-free use. Just don't try to tell me he's avoiding anything more
                        > than the excise tax and liabilities by shipping them in their "non-firing
                        > state", because that just isn't so.
                        >
                        > By the way, at least one of his competitors will give you a substantail
                        > "volume discount" if your unit purchases at least 3 flintlocks in any
                        > combination of models.
                        >
                        > YMHS,
                        > Dan

                        Dan,
                        ...very well, we shall agree to disagree.
                        Cheers,
                        Bob
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:35 PM, bolton1812 <bolton1812@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Dan,
                        > Please see the next reply after yours from Dave. Very well stated!
                        > The reason IS, is that there are costs to a dealer associated with selling a
                        > functional ( fireable right from the box) rather than a what is termed,
                        > "non-functioning" piece...period. The cost HE saves is passed on to the
                        > customer by giving the customer a more inexpensive weapon. And he deals with
                        > less (especially) post 9/11 red tape BS. I think your freaking yourself out
                        > over nothing, man...but to each his own.
                        > Any firearm (replica, or modern) will have clauses in the warranty, or sales
                        > agreement, to some degree or another. Any blackpowder firearm I ever owned (
                        > now at about 14) ALL stated that the user is soley responsible for the use
                        > of the firearm, and the seller is not responsible for any alteration to the
                        > origional piece. And except for two that I own from said company, , these
                        > are all pre drilled pieces. The drilling of these touch holes is less an
                        > alteration than it is just making something functional.
                        > Look, if this guy was selling something that definitly should just hang on a
                        > wall and NEVER be made functional...he would have more legal disclaimers
                        > than he has, and he would state it clearly and probably in big freekin bold
                        > red letters..."these weapons are for show ONLY!" Ya think?
                        > Cheers,
                        > Bob Bolton
                        > Pa. Associators
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com>, Dan Gracia
                        > > <twisted1in66@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi Bob,
                        > > >
                        > > > I don't buy that excuse simply because his competitors (one in the US and
                        > > > one in Canada) also sell blackpowder muskets and arms that are made in
                        > > India
                        > > > and they supply them with the touch hole at no greater price than he
                        > > does.
                        > > > I can't believe they have a greater expense.
                        > > >
                        > > > I wouldn't worry about drilling the hole so much except that he puts that
                        > > > disclaimer on every page of every blackpowder firearm he sells that says
                        > > he
                        > > > sells non-firing reproduction and can't be responsible if you drill the
                        > > vent
                        > > > hole. " We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its
                        > > present
                        > > > non-firing state." There's really no mistaking that quote regardless of
                        > > > what his excuse or side talk is. So, I choose to go elsewhere.
                        > > >
                        > > > I'm glad it works for you AND I know it has worked for others too. I'm
                        > > just
                        > > > not going to buy anything for him with that disclaimer there.
                        > > >
                        > > > Respectfully I remain YMHS,
                        > > > Dan
                        > > >
                        > > > -
                        > > > Dan Gracia
                        > > > Virginia 7th Regiment
                        > > > Rifle company
                        > > > and
                        > > > Capt. John Warner's Company
                        > > > Green Mountain Rangers
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> <Revlist%
                        > > 40yahoogroups.com>, Dan Gracia
                        > >
                        > > > > <twisted1in66@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Also, be sure that you note that on the site that sells it's muskets
                        > > > > without
                        > > > > > the vent drilled that you void their warranty by drilling it. They
                        > > > > > officially sell their muskets as "non-firing" supposedly because it's
                        > > > > easier
                        > > > > > to ship them. Here's the statement you'll find at the bottom of the
                        > > page
                        > > > > of
                        > > > > > each of their "drill your own hole" muskets:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > "We sell historically accurate muskets as a non-firing state. This
                        > > allows
                        > > > > > us to comply with local, state, national and international firearms
                        > > > > > regulations. A certified gunsmith may alter this musket to a firing
                        > > state
                        > > > > > by drilling the vent hole and test firing it. We are not legally
                        > > > > > responsible for any alteration from its present non-firing state."
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Notice the "we are not legally responsible" phrase. These are
                        > > India-made
                        > > > > > muskets and other companies also supply India muskets and ship them
                        > > in
                        > > > > North
                        > > > > > America with no problem with the vent drilled. Other companies that
                        > > > > compete
                        > > > > > with them at competitive prices are Loyalist Arms in Canada and
                        > > Middlesex
                        > > > > > Village Trading Company. That said, there are a number of people who
                        > > have
                        > > > > > muskets from Discriminating General and I haven't heard any
                        > > complaints.
                        > > > > > Still, I was considering purchasing one of their muskets until I read
                        > > > > that
                        > > > > > last bit of print at the bottom of the page.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Caveat Emptor.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > YMHS,
                        > > > > > Dan
                        > > > > > Dan,
                        > > > > I believe that selling them without the touch hole drilled is a
                        > > financial
                        > > > > issue. I had a guy that was in the business of firearms tell me that a
                        > > > > "non-firing" weapon will not get the stiff "additional" costs and
                        > > taxes,
                        > > > > etc. to the seller, that a ready to fire weapon will. All of these
                        > > weapons
                        > > > > that I have seen, including the Sea Service musket I have from them,
                        > > all had
                        > > > > a punch mark where the hole is to be drilled. I had drilled the touch
                        > > hole
                        > > > > myself, took it to a qualified blackpowder gunsmith (Dixons near
                        > > Reading
                        > > > > Pa.) and it passed with flying colors. It shoots like a charm, and
                        > > actually
                        > > > > hits what I'm aiming at 50 yds. No problem.
                        > > > > Actually any blackpowder firearm, warrantied or not, you will have a
                        > > > > helluva time if something goes wrong. Too many human variables in these
                        > > > > kinda weapons that could lead to overcharging, etc. Not like a "modern"
                        > > > > firearm with cased rounds, highly machined parts, etc.
                        > > > > Cheers,
                        > > > > Bob Bolton
                        > > > > Pa. Associators
                        > > > > > --
                        > > > > > Dan Gracia
                        > > > > > Virginia 7th Regiment
                        > > > > > Rifle company
                        > > > > > and
                        > > > > > Capt. John Warner's Company
                        > > > > > Green Mountain Rangers
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Richard Staron <rstaron@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Not difficult. But if the bit busts while drilling it you will have
                        > > to
                        > > > > > > over drill it and get a touchhole vent installed. jet a good DeWalt
                        > > > > drill
                        > > > > > > bit center punch it in the proper location and drill perpendicular
                        > > to
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > > > flat. Use between 1/16 and 3/32 for the drill bit.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > --- On Sun, 5/31/09, OtterFox Fire <otterfoxfire@<otterfoxfire%
                        > > > > 40yahoo.com>>
                        > > > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > From: OtterFox Fire <otterfoxfire@ <otterfoxfire%40yahoo.com>>
                        > > > > > > Subject: [Revlist] Drilling touch holes? -was -Does anybody have
                        > > any
                        > > > > > > experience with these muskets?
                        > > > > > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com> <Revlist%
                        > > 40yahoogroups.com> <Revlist%
                        > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > > > Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 8:22 PM
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I've noticed on this and another site they sell muskets with out
                        > > their
                        > > > > > > touch holes drilled. Is it difficult to drill them out, or wise for
                        > > the
                        > > > > > > average person?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > _,_._,___
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > -
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Dan Gracia
                        > Virginia 7th Regiment
                        > Rifle company
                        > and
                        > Capt. John Warner's Company
                        > Green Mountain Rangers
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Robert Aldridge
                        not drilled so they can ship to U.K. ... From: bolton1812 Subject: [Revlist] Re: Drilling touch holes? -was -Does anybody have any
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 4, 2009
                          not drilled so they can ship to U.K.

                          --- On Thu, 6/4/09, bolton1812 <bolton1812@...> wrote:


                          From: bolton1812 <bolton1812@...>
                          Subject: [Revlist] Re: Drilling touch holes? -was -Does anybody have any experience with these muskets?
                          To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 1:00 PM








                          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups .com, Dan Gracia <twisted1in66@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Bob,
                          >
                          > Yes, I think Dave stated it quite well.
                          >
                          > To put it bluntly, in my opinion, DG is blowing smoke up where the sun don't
                          > shine. WHAT are the extra costs of selling and transporting a functional
                          > flintlock as opposed to selling one that you tell people to drill a hole in
                          > to make it work, but if you alter it from its non-firing state they are not
                          > legally liable? The ONLY thing they avoid is the excise tax. There are no
                          > BATF hassles. BATF doesn't care about flintlocks - they classify them as
                          > antiques. It's perfectly legal to transport flintlocks across the US/Canada
                          > border. So I have to ask you, what are the extra costs of selling one?
                          >
                          > There are no extra shipping requirements for flintlocks! I've shipped
                          > flintlocks and I've shipped new modern firearms. You put the flintlock in a
                          > box and call UPS, FedEx, etc., to pick it up (or take it to them). I would
                          > ship it the same as a shovel except that I'd pack it very carefully.
                          >
                          > Modern firearms I can ship new only to a Federal Firearms License (FFL)
                          > holder. I can repair your firearm and ship it directly back to you because
                          > you already own it and shipped or delivered it to me, but can only ship a
                          > new modern firearm to an FFL holder. Yes there are restrictions in shipping
                          > modern firearms, federal forms to fill out and mandatory waiting periods in
                          > various states. I've had to reconcile FFL records showing serial number of
                          > each firearm, date of receipt of firearm, disposition of firearm including
                          > date of shipment, addressee of shipment, and address of shipment. NONE of
                          > that applies to flintlocks. The only difference is that he's avoiding the
                          > excise tax and he's blowing smoke at you.
                          >
                          > Regarding your statement, "The drilling of these touch holes is less an
                          > alteration than it is just making something functional." , just see how
                          > legally viable that is against his statement, " We are not legally
                          > responsible for any alteration from its present non-firing state." Case
                          > dismissed!
                          >
                          > My feelings have nothing to do with the quality of his product, how well
                          > they shoot, or how easy it is to drill the touchhole. It is totally about
                          > him marketing these to be used by reenactors and blackpowder enthusiasts and
                          > then placing his disclaimer on each one that he's not responsible if you
                          > turn it into what he's telling you it is so good for. His claims about why
                          > he doesn't drill a vent look very bogus to me. I've legally shipped both
                          > flintlocks and modern firearms and the only thing he is avoiding is the
                          > excise tax and ANY resposibility if he produces a sub-par or even
                          > dangerously malfunctioning flintlock. Mind you, I'm not saying he ever
                          > has. I just would rather deal with someone who is more, shall we say,
                          > "straightforward" than that.
                          >
                          > Feel free to purchase whatever you like from him and I sincerely hope that
                          > it works as well or better than you expect and gives you many years of
                          > trouble-free use. Just don't try to tell me he's avoiding anything more
                          > than the excise tax and liabilities by shipping them in their "non-firing
                          > state", because that just isn't so.
                          >
                          > By the way, at least one of his competitors will give you a substantail
                          > "volume discount" if your unit purchases at least 3 flintlocks in any
                          > combination of models.
                          >
                          > YMHS,
                          > Dan

                          Dan,
                          ...very well, we shall agree to disagree.
                          Cheers,
                          Bob
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:35 PM, bolton1812 <bolton1812@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Dan,
                          > Please see the next reply after yours from Dave. Very well stated!
                          > The reason IS, is that there are costs to a dealer associated with selling a
                          > functional ( fireable right from the box) rather than a what is termed,
                          > "non-functioning" piece...period. The cost HE saves is passed on to the
                          > customer by giving the customer a more inexpensive weapon. And he deals with
                          > less (especially) post 9/11 red tape BS. I think your freaking yourself out
                          > over nothing, man...but to each his own.
                          > Any firearm (replica, or modern) will have clauses in the warranty, or sales
                          > agreement, to some degree or another. Any blackpowder firearm I ever owned (
                          > now at about 14) ALL stated that the user is soley responsible for the use
                          > of the firearm, and the seller is not responsible for any alteration to the
                          > origional piece. And except for two that I own from said company, , these
                          > are all pre drilled pieces. The drilling of these touch holes is less an
                          > alteration than it is just making something functional.
                          > Look, if this guy was selling something that definitly should just hang on a
                          > wall and NEVER be made functional.. .he would have more legal disclaimers
                          > than he has, and he would state it clearly and probably in big freekin bold
                          > red letters..."these weapons are for show ONLY!" Ya think?
                          > Cheers,
                          > Bob Bolton
                          > Pa. Associators
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > >
                          > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups .com <Revlist%40yahoogro ups.com>, Dan Gracia
                          > > <twisted1in66@ > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hi Bob,
                          > > >
                          > > > I don't buy that excuse simply because his competitors (one in the US and
                          > > > one in Canada) also sell blackpowder muskets and arms that are made in
                          > > India
                          > > > and they supply them with the touch hole at no greater price than he
                          > > does.
                          > > > I can't believe they have a greater expense.
                          > > >
                          > > > I wouldn't worry about drilling the hole so much except that he puts that
                          > > > disclaimer on every page of every blackpowder firearm he sells that says
                          > > he
                          > > > sells non-firing reproduction and can't be responsible if you drill the
                          > > vent
                          > > > hole. " We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its
                          > > present
                          > > > non-firing state." There's really no mistaking that quote regardless of
                          > > > what his excuse or side talk is. So, I choose to go elsewhere.
                          > > >
                          > > > I'm glad it works for you AND I know it has worked for others too. I'm
                          > > just
                          > > > not going to buy anything for him with that disclaimer there.
                          > > >
                          > > > Respectfully I remain YMHS,
                          > > > Dan
                          > > >
                          > > > -
                          > > > Dan Gracia
                          > > > Virginia 7th Regiment
                          > > > Rifle company
                          > > > and
                          > > > Capt. John Warner's Company
                          > > > Green Mountain Rangers
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups .com <Revlist%40yahoogro ups.com> <Revlist%
                          > > 40yahoogroups. com>, Dan Gracia
                          > >
                          > > > > <twisted1in66@ > wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Also, be sure that you note that on the site that sells it's muskets
                          > > > > without
                          > > > > > the vent drilled that you void their warranty by drilling it. They
                          > > > > > officially sell their muskets as "non-firing" supposedly because it's
                          > > > > easier
                          > > > > > to ship them. Here's the statement you'll find at the bottom of the
                          > > page
                          > > > > of
                          > > > > > each of their "drill your own hole" muskets:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > "We sell historically accurate muskets as a non-firing state. This
                          > > allows
                          > > > > > us to comply with local, state, national and international firearms
                          > > > > > regulations. A certified gunsmith may alter this musket to a firing
                          > > state
                          > > > > > by drilling the vent hole and test firing it. We are not legally
                          > > > > > responsible for any alteration from its present non-firing state."
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Notice the "we are not legally responsible" phrase. These are
                          > > India-made
                          > > > > > muskets and other companies also supply India muskets and ship them
                          > > in
                          > > > > North
                          > > > > > America with no problem with the vent drilled. Other companies that
                          > > > > compete
                          > > > > > with them at competitive prices are Loyalist Arms in Canada and
                          > > Middlesex
                          > > > > > Village Trading Company. That said, there are a number of people who
                          > > have
                          > > > > > muskets from Discriminating General and I haven't heard any
                          > > complaints.
                          > > > > > Still, I was considering purchasing one of their muskets until I read
                          > > > > that
                          > > > > > last bit of print at the bottom of the page.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Caveat Emptor.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > YMHS,
                          > > > > > Dan
                          > > > > > Dan,
                          > > > > I believe that selling them without the touch hole drilled is a
                          > > financial
                          > > > > issue. I had a guy that was in the business of firearms tell me that a
                          > > > > "non-firing" weapon will not get the stiff "additional" costs and
                          > > taxes,
                          > > > > etc. to the seller, that a ready to fire weapon will. All of these
                          > > weapons
                          > > > > that I have seen, including the Sea Service musket I have from them,
                          > > all had
                          > > > > a punch mark where the hole is to be drilled. I had drilled the touch
                          > > hole
                          > > > > myself, took it to a qualified blackpowder gunsmith (Dixons near
                          > > Reading
                          > > > > Pa.) and it passed with flying colors. It shoots like a charm, and
                          > > actually
                          > > > > hits what I'm aiming at 50 yds. No problem.
                          > > > > Actually any blackpowder firearm, warrantied or not, you will have a
                          > > > > helluva time if something goes wrong. Too many human variables in these
                          > > > > kinda weapons that could lead to overcharging, etc. Not like a "modern"
                          > > > > firearm with cased rounds, highly machined parts, etc.
                          > > > > Cheers,
                          > > > > Bob Bolton
                          > > > > Pa. Associators
                          > > > > > --
                          > > > > > Dan Gracia
                          > > > > > Virginia 7th Regiment
                          > > > > > Rifle company
                          > > > > > and
                          > > > > > Capt. John Warner's Company
                          > > > > > Green Mountain Rangers
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Richard Staron <rstaron@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Not difficult. But if the bit busts while drilling it you will have
                          > > to
                          > > > > > > over drill it and get a touchhole vent installed. jet a good DeWalt
                          > > > > drill
                          > > > > > > bit center punch it in the proper location and drill perpendicular
                          > > to
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > flat. Use between 1/16 and 3/32 for the drill bit.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > --- On Sun, 5/31/09, OtterFox Fire <otterfoxfire@ <otterfoxfire%
                          > > > > 40yahoo.com> >
                          > > > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > From: OtterFox Fire <otterfoxfire@ <otterfoxfire% 40yahoo.com> >
                          > > > > > > Subject: [Revlist] Drilling touch holes? -was -Does anybody have
                          > > any
                          > > > > > > experience with these muskets?
                          > > > > > > To: Revlist@yahoogroups .com <Revlist%40yahoogro ups.com> <Revlist%
                          > > 40yahoogroups. com> <Revlist%
                          > > > > 40yahoogroups. com>
                          > > > > > > Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 8:22 PM
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I've noticed on this and another site they sell muskets with out
                          > > their
                          > > > > > > touch holes drilled. Is it difficult to drill them out, or wise for
                          > > the
                          > > > > > > average person?
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > _,_._,___
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > -
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Dan Gracia
                          > Virginia 7th Regiment
                          > Rifle company
                          > and
                          > Capt. John Warner's Company
                          > Green Mountain Rangers
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >



















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