Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [Revlist] Which Flints are Best?

Expand Messages
  • Hugh Harrington
    I use English Flints which I get from the Log Cabin Shop in Lodi, OH. These are good people and have been shooting muzzleloaders for a couple of generations
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 2, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      I use English Flints which I get from the Log Cabin Shop in Lodi, OH.
      These are good people and have been shooting muzzleloaders for a couple
      of generations and will give you good service.
      Give them a call at 800-837-1082

      Hugh Harrington

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Maxwell
      > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 1:35 PM
      > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Revlist] Which Flints are Best?
      >
      >
      > We are looking for a quantity of good quality flints.
      > We tried French Amber Flints and had them work about 1/2 as
      > long as the
      > dark ones.
      > We tried White flints and they were terrible.
      > At events there are many times there aren't flints for sale,
      > or the ones
      > for sale just are not shaped well.
      > I am looking for a source for reliable, long-lasting flints.
      > If they are shaped well and last long, I would buy 4 dozen.
      > Thank You Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
      >
      >
      >
    • Douglas Butler
      Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local gunsmith, or proof it
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 2, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for
        both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
        gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
        uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side to
        make room for a vent liner.

        As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend to
        portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
        common, and for a military group it may be more important to conform
        than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on this
        side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial you
        would be more likely to have and older musket. The British Marines
        also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I have a
        TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket is
        just the thing for my militia persona.

        SherpaDoug

        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil War
        > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma. As a
        > side living history impression I would like to put together a British
        > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
        >
        > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex Village
        > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's new
        > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd like to
        > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning the
        > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns, so any
        > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in blank and
        > live fire.
        >
        > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the group I
        > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would need to
        > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli musket, or any
        > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech plugs? The
        > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the breech just
        > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861 Springfield
        > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used the
        > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what appeared
        > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore light down
        > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going straight
        > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw where
        > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in an 'L'
        > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim of what
        > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a screw
        > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech tang the
        > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning the screw
        > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
        >
        > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges (mainly at
        > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a slight
        > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the barrel.
        > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was there
        > before I fired it.
        >
        > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do yours
        > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit in
        > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should ask on
        > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to just
        > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to this issue
        > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of the box
        > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the length,
        > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their French
        > 1777.
        >
        > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
        > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
        > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the 1742
        > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769 Short Land?
        >
        > Thanks again,
        >
        > Justin Prince
        > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
        > Indian Territory
        >
      • mario doreste
        Larry, I carry most sizes of Tom Fuller flints. the_skulking_frenchman@yahoo.com Mario Doreste Sharon Springs, NY Larry Maxwell
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Larry,

          I carry most sizes of Tom Fuller flints.

          the_skulking_frenchman@...

          Mario Doreste
          Sharon Springs, NY

          Larry Maxwell <Patriot1775@...> wrote:
          We are looking for a quantity of good quality flints.
          We tried French Amber Flints and had them work about 1/2 as long as the
          dark ones.
          We tried White flints and they were terrible.
          At events there are many times there aren't flints for sale, or the ones
          for sale just are not shaped well.
          I am looking for a source for reliable, long-lasting flints.
          If they are shaped well and last long, I would buy 4 dozen.
          Thank You
          Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY






          ---------------------------------
          Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Justin Prince
          Thanks for all the advice. I did send an email to Pete, asking about this slot or channel . The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks for all the advice.

            I did send an email to Pete, asking about this "slot" or "channel".
            The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
            unsafe, but since they hate Indian guns I wanted to be sure. I'm not
            an expert but I have seen original 1816 Breech Screws and they have
            no liner or anything, as the touch hole was put in front of the screw
            on an original. However, I got no response. I also got no response
            when I asked how the muzzle compared to an original to see if a TRS
            bayonet or a high quality Italian would fit. Nor did I get a response
            to feedback I sent on the musket, namely detailing the many ways this
            1816 was not a good replica. I phrased it politely because I figured
            the guy is a reenactor, and reenactors strive for the utmost in
            authenticity. I was also silent that he told me early last year he
            went to the Springfield NHP to do research, yet the musket only very
            generally resembled the true 1816. I kept it because other than the
            length, some reshaping of the butt and in the future (maybe) some TRS
            parts would correct it. That, and it was also a gift, and I'm too
            much of a nice guy to say "you wasted your hard earned money you
            couldn't afford on a piece of junk, send it back." That would have
            been a slap in the face to my parents who so desperately want to
            support my reenacting addiction.

            Well Friday night I decided to blank proof it. I had read on
            www.cwreenactor.com/forum that a Loyalist Arms made Lorenz cracked on
            blank proofing. So I figure fire a double blank (something that
            happens all the time in reenacting) and see if any obvious cracks
            appear. Then I can go back and do Pete's double load, double ball
            proof.

            Well, the musket failed the blank proof. I didn't measure the barrel
            (after all, IF it is advertised as live firing it should withstand a
            simple double blank) but water can now seep out of the seem where the
            breechplug screws into the barrel. NOT GOOD! So I emailed Pete, told
            him about the problem, and asked for a refund. I figured he wouldn't
            give me one since I reshaped the butt (albeit to something that
            actually looked like an 1816) but I had sent emails from the day I
            got the musket telling him how dissatisfied I was. The musket was by
            no means an authentic (or even attempt at authentic) copy of an 1816,
            the lock continually hangs up on half cock, it has a wierd breech
            screw that my pards on the Civil War Forum, even one who builds
            competition guns, told me was unsafe, and now the barrel is faulty.

            In his reply I got little more than a scathing personal attack. He
            said he would repair or replace the barrel, but also criticized me
            for "making up my own test" instead of following his "documented"
            proof test to test the musket. I'm sorry, but if it is faulty by
            firing a double blank, something that I have accidentally done in my
            Italian Springfield and I see historical interpreters do all the time
            in their Italian guns because they can take it easily, how can this
            India gun be even remotely safe to fire live? He then criticized me
            for being a reenactor and not a gunsmith, attacked my cleaning
            methods which work on Italian muskets but apparently fail miserable
            at Indian muskets... or at least the flash channel part, he accused
            me of altering the lock (because I tightened the sear and bridle
            screw as opposed to filing off stuff like he told me I could do in an
            email), and flaunted his knowledge of originals to me all the while
            defending something made in no way like the originals.

            I even tried to be polite in my email to him, stating how enjoyable
            his company was to deal with, I loved their response time, and it was
            only the quality of the product I didn't like. I even went so far as
            to say I would like to give him the benefit of a doubt that it is
            just this new kind of musket. But there was most certainly no call
            for the content of his email back to me. He criticized my proofing
            methods, yet no where on his website does his company even say the
            muskets should be proofed.

            At any rate, I'm sending the barrel in tomorrow, and when it
            is "fixed" or "replaced" I am putting the musket up for sale. I'm not
            going to try one of the other guns, or from one of the other
            importers, because I had been contacted by countless other people
            with problems from Indian muskets. So for me, I'm sticking with the
            Italian repros. It looks like that TRS Bess is going to have to wait,
            because I still need an 1816 for my new impression and the only guys
            in town for me now are Pedersoli or TRS. I'm not saying all Indian
            guns or even all MVT guns are unsafe, but in my case either the
            quality and materials weren't up to snuff, which is bad enough, or
            the musket wasn't even checked at MVT for a loose plug, which is far
            worse in my opinion.

            Thanks guys for all your help, you RevWar guys are ok in my book.
            Maybe one of these days I'll move out to the East Coast and fall in
            with you guys.

            Justin


            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Butler" <sherpadoug@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for
            > both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
            > gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
            > uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side to
            > make room for a vent liner.
            >
            > As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend to
            > portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
            > common, and for a military group it may be more important to conform
            > than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on this
            > side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial you
            > would be more likely to have and older musket. The British Marines
            > also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I
            have a
            > TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket is
            > just the thing for my militia persona.
            >
            > SherpaDoug
            >
            > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@>
            wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil War
            > > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma. As a
            > > side living history impression I would like to put together a
            British
            > > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
            > >
            > > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex
            Village
            > > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's
            new
            > > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd like
            to
            > > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning the
            > > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns, so
            any
            > > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in blank
            and
            > > live fire.
            > >
            > > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the group I
            > > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would need
            to
            > > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli musket, or
            any
            > > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech plugs?
            The
            > > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the breech
            just
            > > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861
            Springfield
            > > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used the
            > > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what
            appeared
            > > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore light
            down
            > > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going
            straight
            > > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw
            where
            > > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in
            an 'L'
            > > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim of
            what
            > > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a
            screw
            > > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech tang
            the
            > > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning the
            screw
            > > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
            > >
            > > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges (mainly
            at
            > > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a
            slight
            > > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the barrel.
            > > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was there
            > > before I fired it.
            > >
            > > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do
            yours
            > > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit in
            > > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should
            ask on
            > > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to
            just
            > > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to this
            issue
            > > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of the
            box
            > > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the
            length,
            > > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their French
            > > 1777.
            > >
            > > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
            > > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
            > > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the
            1742
            > > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769 Short
            Land?
            > >
            > > Thanks again,
            > >
            > > Justin Prince
            > > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
            > > Indian Territory
            > >
            >
          • James B
            Dr Larry, The 5th NY uses the Black English flints By Fuller from Track Of the Wolf . We also advise using lead sheet, not leather for the flint pad. Corporal
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Dr Larry, The 5th NY uses the Black English flints By Fuller
              from "Track Of the Wolf". We also advise using lead sheet, not
              leather for the flint pad. Corporal J. Burr


              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Larry Maxwell <Patriot1775@...> wrote:
              >
              > We are looking for a quantity of good quality flints.
              > We tried French Amber Flints and had them work about 1/2 as long as
              the
              > dark ones.
              > We tried White flints and they were terrible.
              > At events there are many times there aren't flints for sale, or the
              ones
              > for sale just are not shaped well.
              > I am looking for a source for reliable, long-lasting flints.
              > If they are shaped well and last long, I would buy 4 dozen.
              > Thank You
              > Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
              >
            • John Ogden
              In having attempted to purchase a Highland pistol some time back, this experience is about typical for MVTC s approach to customer service. I never got the
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                In having attempted to purchase a Highland pistol some time back, this
                experience is about typical for MVTC's approach to customer service. I
                never got the pistol, but after 8 months and, finally, threat of legal
                action I did get the money back. Now if Justin will be so kind as to post
                photos of this cracked seam, we have documentation for at least two Indian
                made muskets failing within the last 7 months. Again, what is the source
                for the prior piece?

                On Feb 3, 2008 5:34 PM, Justin Prince <Tankerace_42@...> wrote:

                > Thanks for all the advice.
                >
                > I did send an email to Pete, asking about this "slot" or "channel".
                > The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
                > unsafe, but since they hate Indian guns I wanted to be sure. I'm not
                > an expert but I have seen original 1816 Breech Screws and they have
                > no liner or anything, as the touch hole was put in front of the screw
                > on an original. However, I got no response. I also got no response
                > when I asked how the muzzle compared to an original to see if a TRS
                > bayonet or a high quality Italian would fit. Nor did I get a response
                > to feedback I sent on the musket, namely detailing the many ways this
                > 1816 was not a good replica. I phrased it politely because I figured
                > the guy is a reenactor, and reenactors strive for the utmost in
                > authenticity. I was also silent that he told me early last year he
                > went to the Springfield NHP to do research, yet the musket only very
                > generally resembled the true 1816. I kept it because other than the
                > length, some reshaping of the butt and in the future (maybe) some TRS
                > parts would correct it. That, and it was also a gift, and I'm too
                > much of a nice guy to say "you wasted your hard earned money you
                > couldn't afford on a piece of junk, send it back." That would have
                > been a slap in the face to my parents who so desperately want to
                > support my reenacting addiction.
                >
                > Well Friday night I decided to blank proof it. I had read on
                > www.cwreenactor.com/forum that a Loyalist Arms made Lorenz cracked on
                > blank proofing. So I figure fire a double blank (something that
                > happens all the time in reenacting) and see if any obvious cracks
                > appear. Then I can go back and do Pete's double load, double ball
                > proof.
                >
                > Well, the musket failed the blank proof. I didn't measure the barrel
                > (after all, IF it is advertised as live firing it should withstand a
                > simple double blank) but water can now seep out of the seem where the
                > breechplug screws into the barrel. NOT GOOD! So I emailed Pete, told
                > him about the problem, and asked for a refund. I figured he wouldn't
                > give me one since I reshaped the butt (albeit to something that
                > actually looked like an 1816) but I had sent emails from the day I
                > got the musket telling him how dissatisfied I was. The musket was by
                > no means an authentic (or even attempt at authentic) copy of an 1816,
                > the lock continually hangs up on half cock, it has a wierd breech
                > screw that my pards on the Civil War Forum, even one who builds
                > competition guns, told me was unsafe, and now the barrel is faulty.
                >
                > In his reply I got little more than a scathing personal attack. He
                > said he would repair or replace the barrel, but also criticized me
                > for "making up my own test" instead of following his "documented"
                > proof test to test the musket. I'm sorry, but if it is faulty by
                > firing a double blank, something that I have accidentally done in my
                > Italian Springfield and I see historical interpreters do all the time
                > in their Italian guns because they can take it easily, how can this
                > India gun be even remotely safe to fire live? He then criticized me
                > for being a reenactor and not a gunsmith, attacked my cleaning
                > methods which work on Italian muskets but apparently fail miserable
                > at Indian muskets... or at least the flash channel part, he accused
                > me of altering the lock (because I tightened the sear and bridle
                > screw as opposed to filing off stuff like he told me I could do in an
                > email), and flaunted his knowledge of originals to me all the while
                > defending something made in no way like the originals.
                >
                > I even tried to be polite in my email to him, stating how enjoyable
                > his company was to deal with, I loved their response time, and it was
                > only the quality of the product I didn't like. I even went so far as
                > to say I would like to give him the benefit of a doubt that it is
                > just this new kind of musket. But there was most certainly no call
                > for the content of his email back to me. He criticized my proofing
                > methods, yet no where on his website does his company even say the
                > muskets should be proofed.
                >
                > At any rate, I'm sending the barrel in tomorrow, and when it
                > is "fixed" or "replaced" I am putting the musket up for sale. I'm not
                > going to try one of the other guns, or from one of the other
                > importers, because I had been contacted by countless other people
                > with problems from Indian muskets. So for me, I'm sticking with the
                > Italian repros. It looks like that TRS Bess is going to have to wait,
                > because I still need an 1816 for my new impression and the only guys
                > in town for me now are Pedersoli or TRS. I'm not saying all Indian
                > guns or even all MVT guns are unsafe, but in my case either the
                > quality and materials weren't up to snuff, which is bad enough, or
                > the musket wasn't even checked at MVT for a loose plug, which is far
                > worse in my opinion.
                >
                > Thanks guys for all your help, you RevWar guys are ok in my book.
                > Maybe one of these days I'll move out to the East Coast and fall in
                > with you guys.
                >
                > Justin
                >
                > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Douglas
                > Butler" <sherpadoug@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for
                > > both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
                > > gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
                > > uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side to
                > > make room for a vent liner.
                > >
                > > As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend to
                > > portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
                > > common, and for a military group it may be more important to conform
                > > than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on this
                > > side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial you
                > > would be more likely to have and older musket. The British Marines
                > > also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I
                > have a
                > > TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket is
                > > just the thing for my militia persona.
                > >
                > > SherpaDoug
                > >
                > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Justin
                > Prince" <Tankerace_42@>
                > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil War
                > > > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma. As a
                > > > side living history impression I would like to put together a
                > British
                > > > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
                > > >
                > > > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex
                > Village
                > > > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's
                > new
                > > > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd like
                > to
                > > > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning the
                > > > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns, so
                > any
                > > > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in blank
                > and
                > > > live fire.
                > > >
                > > > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the group I
                > > > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would need
                > to
                > > > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli musket, or
                > any
                > > > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech plugs?
                > The
                > > > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the breech
                > just
                > > > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861
                > Springfield
                > > > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used the
                > > > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what
                > appeared
                > > > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore light
                > down
                > > > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going
                > straight
                > > > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw
                > where
                > > > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in
                > an 'L'
                > > > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim of
                > what
                > > > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a
                > screw
                > > > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech tang
                > the
                > > > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning the
                > screw
                > > > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
                > > >
                > > > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges (mainly
                > at
                > > > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a
                > slight
                > > > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the barrel.
                > > > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was there
                > > > before I fired it.
                > > >
                > > > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do
                > yours
                > > > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit in
                > > > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should
                > ask on
                > > > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to
                > just
                > > > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to this
                > issue
                > > > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of the
                > box
                > > > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the
                > length,
                > > > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their French
                > > > 1777.
                > > >
                > > > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
                > > > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
                > > > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the
                > 1742
                > > > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769 Short
                > Land?
                > > >
                > > > Thanks again,
                > > >
                > > > Justin Prince
                > > > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
                > > > Indian Territory
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >



                --
                John J. Ogden
                Hanley School of Law
                Duquesne University
                Class of 2011

                "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
                in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
                particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
                Madison, June 20, 1785


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Justin Prince
                John sir, if it is photos you want, it is photos you shall have. They are only camera phone captures, but I ll take some with a good camera shots before I box
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  John sir, if it is photos you want, it is photos you shall have. They
                  are only camera phone captures, but I'll take some with a good camera
                  shots before I box up the barrel tomorrow. Pete can try to cover this
                  up, but the world needs to know about these "pipebombs" as we call
                  them in the CW hobby.

                  And you guys were in luck. I pulled the stock out of the barrel to
                  get pictures, and at one of the seems oil had bubbled out of the
                  musket. It is low quality, but plainly visible. To try and snowball
                  me Pete tried to tell me that water seeping out of the breech wasn't
                  conclusive, it could have come out of the touchhole. I say this to
                  Mr. Pete Plunkett: Here sir, is your proof. And the world shall know
                  it.

                  Also guys, I want to post a snippet of the email he sent. Compare it
                  and his discrediting of my Proofing methods with the pictures I will
                  post in this email.

                  From Pete Plunkett, President of MVTCo: "Why do you have water
                  leaking out of your breech? I don't know, and can't make a reasonable
                  guess based on your "testing" methods. Were there any black streaks
                  there when you fired it with blanks or your "proof" firing?
                  Electrical tape is not water tight and proves nothing. I suppose it
                  is possible that the plug isn't fitted right, but if so that can be
                  fixed."

                  So, he can't tell me why the plug may be faulty based on blanks only.
                  He tries to discredit my testing methods (a double loaded blank. I've
                  done it my hobby, how many of you have done it in yours? This musket
                  couldn't stand it, but apparently that's no test). Then he admits
                  that the plug may not be fitted right. So wait, let's think about
                  that for a second. He defends the musket tooth and nail telling me,
                  there is nothing wrong with it. But it may not have been fitted
                  right, but he sold it anyway. So either 1) He never checked the
                  musket when it arrived in the states and negligently sold me a
                  defective firearm because he provided NO measure of quality control
                  on either side of the Atlantic, or 2) he checked it and either didn't
                  know how to fit a breech plug or didn't care, and criminally sold me
                  a defective firearm anyway all the while claiming he is the gun
                  expert and I'm not, and that it was perfectly safe to live fire. At
                  this point I don't care wether the musket is made of steel or
                  aluminum. This man is selling a defective product that he isn't
                  bothering to check before he sends it to you. Then he doesn't say you
                  HAVE to proof it. Or you SHOULD proof it. He says you can buy it, ram
                  a ball and charge down and shoot it when you yank it out of the box.
                  With my seam split either before or after a blank, what would have
                  happened to me?

                  Here are the after photos, just taken about 10 minutes ago.

                  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816BlownBreechTH.jpg
                  This is the right seam, notice how big it is. Also note how close the
                  touchhole is to the breech plug tang. No wonder it could've backed
                  out under just a blank.

                  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816BlownBreech3.jpg
                  This is a low quality shot, but notice how big the seam is. I know on
                  my Civil War muskets (which as Pete reminded me are NOT flintlocks,
                  but I disagree with his assertion that is irrelevant) I can barely
                  see the seam.

                  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816BlownBreech2.jpg
                  Here is the right seam. Notice the oil that leaked out of the seam.
                  This was the seam where I saw the water coming out.

                  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816BlownBreech1.jpg
                  Here is the right seam above the touchhole. When I was rolling the
                  barrel around to get good shots, more oil bubbled out. This one is
                  clear and distinctive.

                  Now the before pictures. I had fired maybe 8 or 10 blanks by the time
                  I took these, but low 60 or 80 grain charges. Includes photos around
                  the barrel or breech.

                  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816pluglength.jpg
                  Measurement of the touch hole to plug. Pete rambled on about how its
                  based on originals, but a quick look at
                  http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/091228000/91228507/pix1739251390.jpg
                  and
                  http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/091228000/91228507/pix1739251281.jpg
                  show just how far forward the barrel/breech or how far back the lock
                  is.

                  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816breechsection.jpg
                  Here is the rear of the breech. By this time I had fired about 8 or
                  10 low charge blanks, but not the double loaded blank. Notice the
                  three dimples.

                  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816breech.jpg
                  Seam on the bottom of the breech and barrel. Also note the chip. That
                  was there from the first day I got it. Naively I had assumed Pete had
                  checked these things before he sold it to me. Guess I was wrong.
                  Also, after my double blank proofing I found fouling there.

                  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816barrelstamping.jp
                  g
                  Markings on the underside of the barrel. They read: A.H.U. UDR INDIA
                  above C/"4 digit serial number" 25/9/79. I in searching for MVT
                  muskets on this list I found someone with a Brown Bess barrel that
                  had the same stamping, just his S/N was lower. I've also heard on a
                  forum that a Loyalist Arms barrel had the same marking. So much for
                  them using different manufacturers.

                  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816touchhole.jpg
                  Wider shot of the right seem, before double blank.

                  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816rammeroutofslot.j
                  pg
                  How far the rammer protrudes when it is on the actual face of the
                  breech screw.

                  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816rammerinslot.jpg
                  How far it protrudes when the threaded end of the ramrod can easily
                  get stuck in the flash channel.

                  Well lads, there is your documentation. I don't care what Pete says,
                  if I had double ball proofed this thing with either an inferiorly
                  constructed breech plug or one that he, his MVT gunsmiths, or the
                  guys earning $1 a day in India couldn't figure out how to fit the
                  barrel would have burst of the breech plug shot out. Or it would have
                  been so weakened that after prolonged firing it would have happened.
                  At first I thought that Bess that blew in November was user error. In
                  an email Pete all but told me it was. Now I am convinced that one of
                  these wallhanging pipebombs blew.

                  I really don't care about the fact my particular musket borders on
                  false advertisement claiming it is a replica of the U.S. Model 1816.
                  What I'm concerned about is someone is going to get killed on one of
                  these Indian guns. My CW unit is a campaigner unit and forbids Indian
                  guns. I don't think I, or most in my hobby have to worry. What I'm
                  scared of is all you guys standing in double ranks blasting away with
                  Pete's Besses, and the potential of when, not if, a musket will
                  explode again. One failed in December, it fired less than 50 blanks.
                  Mine failed in February, it fired maybe a dozen. That's not a good
                  safety record at all.

                  Yours,

                  Justin Prince


                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John Ogden" <johnjogden@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > In having attempted to purchase a Highland pistol some time back,
                  this
                  > experience is about typical for MVTC's approach to customer
                  service. I
                  > never got the pistol, but after 8 months and, finally, threat of
                  legal
                  > action I did get the money back. Now if Justin will be so kind as
                  to post
                  > photos of this cracked seam, we have documentation for at least two
                  Indian
                  > made muskets failing within the last 7 months. Again, what is the
                  source
                  > for the prior piece?
                  >
                  > On Feb 3, 2008 5:34 PM, Justin Prince <Tankerace_42@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Thanks for all the advice.
                  > >
                  > > I did send an email to Pete, asking about this "slot"
                  or "channel".
                  > > The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
                  > > unsafe, but since they hate Indian guns I wanted to be sure. I'm
                  not
                  > > an expert but I have seen original 1816 Breech Screws and they
                  have
                  > > no liner or anything, as the touch hole was put in front of the
                  screw
                  > > on an original. However, I got no response. I also got no response
                  > > when I asked how the muzzle compared to an original to see if a
                  TRS
                  > > bayonet or a high quality Italian would fit. Nor did I get a
                  response
                  > > to feedback I sent on the musket, namely detailing the many ways
                  this
                  > > 1816 was not a good replica. I phrased it politely because I
                  figured
                  > > the guy is a reenactor, and reenactors strive for the utmost in
                  > > authenticity. I was also silent that he told me early last year he
                  > > went to the Springfield NHP to do research, yet the musket only
                  very
                  > > generally resembled the true 1816. I kept it because other than
                  the
                  > > length, some reshaping of the butt and in the future (maybe) some
                  TRS
                  > > parts would correct it. That, and it was also a gift, and I'm too
                  > > much of a nice guy to say "you wasted your hard earned money you
                  > > couldn't afford on a piece of junk, send it back." That would have
                  > > been a slap in the face to my parents who so desperately want to
                  > > support my reenacting addiction.
                  > >
                  > > Well Friday night I decided to blank proof it. I had read on
                  > > www.cwreenactor.com/forum that a Loyalist Arms made Lorenz
                  cracked on
                  > > blank proofing. So I figure fire a double blank (something that
                  > > happens all the time in reenacting) and see if any obvious cracks
                  > > appear. Then I can go back and do Pete's double load, double ball
                  > > proof.
                  > >
                  > > Well, the musket failed the blank proof. I didn't measure the
                  barrel
                  > > (after all, IF it is advertised as live firing it should
                  withstand a
                  > > simple double blank) but water can now seep out of the seem where
                  the
                  > > breechplug screws into the barrel. NOT GOOD! So I emailed Pete,
                  told
                  > > him about the problem, and asked for a refund. I figured he
                  wouldn't
                  > > give me one since I reshaped the butt (albeit to something that
                  > > actually looked like an 1816) but I had sent emails from the day I
                  > > got the musket telling him how dissatisfied I was. The musket was
                  by
                  > > no means an authentic (or even attempt at authentic) copy of an
                  1816,
                  > > the lock continually hangs up on half cock, it has a wierd breech
                  > > screw that my pards on the Civil War Forum, even one who builds
                  > > competition guns, told me was unsafe, and now the barrel is
                  faulty.
                  > >
                  > > In his reply I got little more than a scathing personal attack. He
                  > > said he would repair or replace the barrel, but also criticized me
                  > > for "making up my own test" instead of following his "documented"
                  > > proof test to test the musket. I'm sorry, but if it is faulty by
                  > > firing a double blank, something that I have accidentally done in
                  my
                  > > Italian Springfield and I see historical interpreters do all the
                  time
                  > > in their Italian guns because they can take it easily, how can
                  this
                  > > India gun be even remotely safe to fire live? He then criticized
                  me
                  > > for being a reenactor and not a gunsmith, attacked my cleaning
                  > > methods which work on Italian muskets but apparently fail
                  miserable
                  > > at Indian muskets... or at least the flash channel part, he
                  accused
                  > > me of altering the lock (because I tightened the sear and bridle
                  > > screw as opposed to filing off stuff like he told me I could do
                  in an
                  > > email), and flaunted his knowledge of originals to me all the
                  while
                  > > defending something made in no way like the originals.
                  > >
                  > > I even tried to be polite in my email to him, stating how
                  enjoyable
                  > > his company was to deal with, I loved their response time, and it
                  was
                  > > only the quality of the product I didn't like. I even went so far
                  as
                  > > to say I would like to give him the benefit of a doubt that it is
                  > > just this new kind of musket. But there was most certainly no call
                  > > for the content of his email back to me. He criticized my proofing
                  > > methods, yet no where on his website does his company even say the
                  > > muskets should be proofed.
                  > >
                  > > At any rate, I'm sending the barrel in tomorrow, and when it
                  > > is "fixed" or "replaced" I am putting the musket up for sale. I'm
                  not
                  > > going to try one of the other guns, or from one of the other
                  > > importers, because I had been contacted by countless other people
                  > > with problems from Indian muskets. So for me, I'm sticking with
                  the
                  > > Italian repros. It looks like that TRS Bess is going to have to
                  wait,
                  > > because I still need an 1816 for my new impression and the only
                  guys
                  > > in town for me now are Pedersoli or TRS. I'm not saying all Indian
                  > > guns or even all MVT guns are unsafe, but in my case either the
                  > > quality and materials weren't up to snuff, which is bad enough, or
                  > > the musket wasn't even checked at MVT for a loose plug, which is
                  far
                  > > worse in my opinion.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks guys for all your help, you RevWar guys are ok in my book.
                  > > Maybe one of these days I'll move out to the East Coast and fall
                  in
                  > > with you guys.
                  > >
                  > > Justin
                  > >
                  > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%
                  40yahoogroups.com>, "Douglas
                  > > Butler" <sherpadoug@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets
                  for
                  > > > both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
                  > > > gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
                  > > > uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side
                  to
                  > > > make room for a vent liner.
                  > > >
                  > > > As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend
                  to
                  > > > portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
                  > > > common, and for a military group it may be more important to
                  conform
                  > > > than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on
                  this
                  > > > side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial
                  you
                  > > > would be more likely to have and older musket. The British
                  Marines
                  > > > also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I
                  > > have a
                  > > > TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket
                  is
                  > > > just the thing for my militia persona.
                  > > >
                  > > > SherpaDoug
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%
                  40yahoogroups.com>, "Justin
                  > > Prince" <Tankerace_42@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil
                  War
                  > > > > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma.
                  As a
                  > > > > side living history impression I would like to put together a
                  > > British
                  > > > > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex
                  > > Village
                  > > > > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's
                  > > new
                  > > > > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd
                  like
                  > > to
                  > > > > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning
                  the
                  > > > > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns,
                  so
                  > > any
                  > > > > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in
                  blank
                  > > and
                  > > > > live fire.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the
                  group I
                  > > > > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would
                  need
                  > > to
                  > > > > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli
                  musket, or
                  > > any
                  > > > > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech
                  plugs?
                  > > The
                  > > > > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the
                  breech
                  > > just
                  > > > > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861
                  > > Springfield
                  > > > > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used
                  the
                  > > > > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what
                  > > appeared
                  > > > > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore
                  light
                  > > down
                  > > > > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going
                  > > straight
                  > > > > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw
                  > > where
                  > > > > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in
                  > > an 'L'
                  > > > > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim
                  of
                  > > what
                  > > > > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a
                  > > screw
                  > > > > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech
                  tang
                  > > the
                  > > > > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning
                  the
                  > > screw
                  > > > > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges
                  (mainly
                  > > at
                  > > > > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a
                  > > slight
                  > > > > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the
                  barrel.
                  > > > > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was
                  there
                  > > > > before I fired it.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do
                  > > yours
                  > > > > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit
                  in
                  > > > > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should
                  > > ask on
                  > > > > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to
                  > > just
                  > > > > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to
                  this
                  > > issue
                  > > > > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of
                  the
                  > > box
                  > > > > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the
                  > > length,
                  > > > > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their
                  French
                  > > > > 1777.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
                  > > > > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
                  > > > > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the
                  > > 1742
                  > > > > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769
                  Short
                  > > Land?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thanks again,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Justin Prince
                  > > > > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
                  > > > > Indian Territory
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > John J. Ogden
                  > Hanley School of Law
                  > Duquesne University
                  > Class of 2011
                  >
                  > "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish
                  Christianity
                  > in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same
                  ease, any
                  > particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" --
                  James
                  > Madison, June 20, 1785
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Jon Kahoe
                  For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without problem and have
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have
                    put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without
                    problem and have friends who have fired 100's of live rounds of round
                    ball & buckshot through them. I know that the Fowlers, the LLP Muskets
                    and the India Patterns have performed excellently.
                    Plus, the forged springs are far superior to the cheaply made "other
                    company" cast springs. When you buy a musket- have it inspected, or do
                    it yourself. Pull the breech and take a peek. I have taken some apart
                    and inspected the breech for my own curiousity- and no slot nor
                    touchhole drilled at an angle that I have seen. Could it be a bad
                    batch? very-possible.

                    I cannot speak for anyone's experiences except my own. I will not
                    generalize an entire company based on one experience- and without a
                    definitive answer as well from a legal inspection. I have seen
                    reenactors have issues with muskets from every company from Miroku, to
                    Pedersoli to MVT Co.

                    Thanks-
                    Jon Kahoe
                  • Jon Kahoe
                    For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without problem and have
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have
                      put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without
                      problem and have friends who have fired 100's of live rounds of round
                      ball & buckshot through them. I know that the Fowlers, the LLP Muskets
                      and the India Patterns have performed excellently.
                      Plus, the forged springs are far superior to the cheaply made "other
                      company" cast springs. When you buy a musket- have it inspected, or do
                      it yourself. Pull the breech and take a peek. I have taken some apart
                      and inspected the breech for my own curiousity- and no slot nor
                      touchhole drilled at an angle that I have seen. Could it be a bad
                      batch? very-possible.

                      I cannot speak for anyone's experiences except my own. I will not
                      generalize an entire company based on one experience- and without a
                      definitive answer as well from a legal inspection. I have seen
                      reenactors have issues with muskets from every company from Miroku, to
                      Pedersoli to MVT Co.

                      Thanks-
                      Jon Kahoe
                    • thirdnewhampshire
                      With regards to the slot in the breech plug mentioned by Justin on the India made 1816 musket, Jean Boudriot in his book Armes A Feu Francaises Modeles
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        With regards to the "slot" in the breech plug mentioned by Justin on
                        the India made 1816 musket, Jean Boudriot in his book "Armes A Feu
                        Francaises Modeles Reglementaires 1717 - 1836" describes major points
                        of interest on page 72 for the Model 1763 (heavy) musket. The M1763
                        (heavy) is the forerunner of the "Charleville" (the French called it
                        the M1763 (light) and/or M1766) made in Japan, Italy, and India many
                        of us carry.

                        The point of interest here is: "The threaded portion of the breech
                        plug is notched on the side of the vent, the tang of the breech plug
                        is 0,063 m (2 inches 4 lines) long, its end is rounded and it is bored
                        for the trigger guard screw." (NOTE, in his book these measurements
                        are "French" inches, 2 pouces 4 lignes; however, he does include the
                        metric measurement with the "inch" in parenthesis).

                        In his description of the Model 1777 (the inspiration for our Model
                        1816) he does not mention anything about the breech plug but does say
                        the "1st production" barrels are similar to the M1763 and the 2nd
                        production, around 1783 the shape of the barrel itself changes to
                        having five flats similar to the AN IX.

                        Quite a bit later in "The Ordnance Manual For The Use Of The Officers
                        of the United States Army", 1850 Second Edition, the following
                        statement is found on page 171 under "Inspection of Barrels": "The
                        vent should enter the bore of the barrel clear of the end of the
                        breech screw".

                        From this it appears that in the mid-18th century the French DID
                        intend the vent to enter the barrel slightly BEHIND the face of the
                        breech plug necessitating a "slot" but by at least the middle of the
                        1800's the US Army intended the vent to enter the barrel AHEAD of the
                        breech plug.

                        This may help explain 1: the concern the Civil War re-enactors had for
                        the "slot" in the breech plug of the India-made Model 1816 and 2: the
                        presence of the "slot" in the India reproduction. I do not have any
                        information whether the British "notched" their breech plugs or not.

                        Sandy Walker

                        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks for all the advice.
                        >
                        > I did send an email to Pete, asking about this "slot" or "channel".
                        > The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
                        > unsafe, but since they hate Indian guns I wanted to be sure. I'm not
                        > an expert but I have seen original 1816 Breech Screws and they have
                        > no liner or anything, as the touch hole was put in front of the screw
                        > on an original. However, I got no response. I also got no response
                        > when I asked how the muzzle compared to an original to see if a TRS
                        > bayonet or a high quality Italian would fit. Nor did I get a response
                        > to feedback I sent on the musket, namely detailing the many ways this
                        > 1816 was not a good replica. I phrased it politely because I figured
                        > the guy is a reenactor, and reenactors strive for the utmost in
                        > authenticity. I was also silent that he told me early last year he
                        > went to the Springfield NHP to do research, yet the musket only very
                        > generally resembled the true 1816. I kept it because other than the
                        > length, some reshaping of the butt and in the future (maybe) some TRS
                        > parts would correct it. That, and it was also a gift, and I'm too
                        > much of a nice guy to say "you wasted your hard earned money you
                        > couldn't afford on a piece of junk, send it back." That would have
                        > been a slap in the face to my parents who so desperately want to
                        > support my reenacting addiction.
                        >
                        > Well Friday night I decided to blank proof it. I had read on
                        > www.cwreenactor.com/forum that a Loyalist Arms made Lorenz cracked on
                        > blank proofing. So I figure fire a double blank (something that
                        > happens all the time in reenacting) and see if any obvious cracks
                        > appear. Then I can go back and do Pete's double load, double ball
                        > proof.
                        >
                        > Well, the musket failed the blank proof. I didn't measure the barrel
                        > (after all, IF it is advertised as live firing it should withstand a
                        > simple double blank) but water can now seep out of the seem where the
                        > breechplug screws into the barrel. NOT GOOD! So I emailed Pete, told
                        > him about the problem, and asked for a refund. I figured he wouldn't
                        > give me one since I reshaped the butt (albeit to something that
                        > actually looked like an 1816) but I had sent emails from the day I
                        > got the musket telling him how dissatisfied I was. The musket was by
                        > no means an authentic (or even attempt at authentic) copy of an 1816,
                        > the lock continually hangs up on half cock, it has a wierd breech
                        > screw that my pards on the Civil War Forum, even one who builds
                        > competition guns, told me was unsafe, and now the barrel is faulty.
                        >
                        > In his reply I got little more than a scathing personal attack. He
                        > said he would repair or replace the barrel, but also criticized me
                        > for "making up my own test" instead of following his "documented"
                        > proof test to test the musket. I'm sorry, but if it is faulty by
                        > firing a double blank, something that I have accidentally done in my
                        > Italian Springfield and I see historical interpreters do all the time
                        > in their Italian guns because they can take it easily, how can this
                        > India gun be even remotely safe to fire live? He then criticized me
                        > for being a reenactor and not a gunsmith, attacked my cleaning
                        > methods which work on Italian muskets but apparently fail miserable
                        > at Indian muskets... or at least the flash channel part, he accused
                        > me of altering the lock (because I tightened the sear and bridle
                        > screw as opposed to filing off stuff like he told me I could do in an
                        > email), and flaunted his knowledge of originals to me all the while
                        > defending something made in no way like the originals.
                        >
                        > I even tried to be polite in my email to him, stating how enjoyable
                        > his company was to deal with, I loved their response time, and it was
                        > only the quality of the product I didn't like. I even went so far as
                        > to say I would like to give him the benefit of a doubt that it is
                        > just this new kind of musket. But there was most certainly no call
                        > for the content of his email back to me. He criticized my proofing
                        > methods, yet no where on his website does his company even say the
                        > muskets should be proofed.
                        >
                        > At any rate, I'm sending the barrel in tomorrow, and when it
                        > is "fixed" or "replaced" I am putting the musket up for sale. I'm not
                        > going to try one of the other guns, or from one of the other
                        > importers, because I had been contacted by countless other people
                        > with problems from Indian muskets. So for me, I'm sticking with the
                        > Italian repros. It looks like that TRS Bess is going to have to wait,
                        > because I still need an 1816 for my new impression and the only guys
                        > in town for me now are Pedersoli or TRS. I'm not saying all Indian
                        > guns or even all MVT guns are unsafe, but in my case either the
                        > quality and materials weren't up to snuff, which is bad enough, or
                        > the musket wasn't even checked at MVT for a loose plug, which is far
                        > worse in my opinion.
                        >
                        > Thanks guys for all your help, you RevWar guys are ok in my book.
                        > Maybe one of these days I'll move out to the East Coast and fall in
                        > with you guys.
                        >
                        > Justin
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Butler" <sherpadoug@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for
                        > > both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
                        > > gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
                        > > uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side to
                        > > make room for a vent liner.
                        > >
                        > > As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend to
                        > > portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
                        > > common, and for a military group it may be more important to conform
                        > > than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on this
                        > > side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial you
                        > > would be more likely to have and older musket. The British Marines
                        > > also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I
                        > have a
                        > > TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket is
                        > > just the thing for my militia persona.
                        > >
                        > > SherpaDoug
                        > >
                        > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@>
                        > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil War
                        > > > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma. As a
                        > > > side living history impression I would like to put together a
                        > British
                        > > > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
                        > > >
                        > > > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex
                        > Village
                        > > > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's
                        > new
                        > > > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd like
                        > to
                        > > > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning the
                        > > > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns, so
                        > any
                        > > > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in blank
                        > and
                        > > > live fire.
                        > > >
                        > > > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the group I
                        > > > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would need
                        > to
                        > > > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli musket, or
                        > any
                        > > > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech plugs?
                        > The
                        > > > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the breech
                        > just
                        > > > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861
                        > Springfield
                        > > > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used the
                        > > > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what
                        > appeared
                        > > > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore light
                        > down
                        > > > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going
                        > straight
                        > > > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw
                        > where
                        > > > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in
                        > an 'L'
                        > > > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim of
                        > what
                        > > > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a
                        > screw
                        > > > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech tang
                        > the
                        > > > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning the
                        > screw
                        > > > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
                        > > >
                        > > > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges (mainly
                        > at
                        > > > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a
                        > slight
                        > > > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the barrel.
                        > > > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was there
                        > > > before I fired it.
                        > > >
                        > > > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do
                        > yours
                        > > > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit in
                        > > > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should
                        > ask on
                        > > > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to
                        > just
                        > > > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to this
                        > issue
                        > > > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of the
                        > box
                        > > > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the
                        > length,
                        > > > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their French
                        > > > 1777.
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
                        > > > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
                        > > > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the
                        > 1742
                        > > > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769 Short
                        > Land?
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks again,
                        > > >
                        > > > Justin Prince
                        > > > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
                        > > > Indian Territory
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Art Kenney
                        I don t think that there is enough information to condemn the company. So the barrel had issues on a double load. What is a double load, exactly? I know
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I don't think that there is enough information to condemn the company. So the barrel had issues on a double load. What is a double load, exactly? I know many people who load just enough to get a flash in the pan an a flash from the muzzle. I have stood beside people on the line who have loaded enough in a single round to make me wonder if they aren't better equipped to man a swivel gun than a musket. A double load at 80 grains, yielding 160, breaking the barrel is bad, yes. A double load at 120, yielding 240, cracking or deforming a barrel or breech plug is a little different.Art KenneyCommander, Fluvanna County Militia"Qui pugant et fugiunt."


                          To: Revlist@yahoogroups.comFrom: musketman1816@...: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:11:18 +0000Subject: [Revlist] Experience with MVT Co. & Muskets




                          For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without problem and have friends who have fired 100's of live rounds of round ball & buckshot through them. I know that the Fowlers, the LLP Muskets and the India Patterns have performed excellently. Plus, the forged springs are far superior to the cheaply made "other company" cast springs. When you buy a musket- have it inspected, or do it yourself. Pull the breech and take a peek. I have taken some apart and inspected the breech for my own curiousity- and no slot nor touchhole drilled at an angle that I have seen. Could it be a bad batch? very-possible.I cannot speak for anyone's experiences except my own. I will not generalize an entire company based on one experience- and without a definitive answer as well from a legal inspection. I have seen reenactors have issues with muskets from every company from Miroku, to Pedersoli to MVT Co.Thanks-Jon Kahoe






                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
                          http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Justin Prince
                          I ve got pictures I ll post in a while. I m not condemning the whole company. I will condemn Pete and his so called Customer service, but that issue is
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I've got pictures I'll post in a while.

                            I'm not condemning the whole company. I will condemn Pete and his so
                            called "Customer service," but that issue is neither here nor there
                            when discussing the safety of the muskets he sells.

                            My test was this. One charge of 75 grains plus one rammed paper
                            charge of 75 grains. In total, 150 grains. According to my units
                            parent organization, the US Frontier Brigade, the maximum allowable
                            charge for a .69 caliber musket is 80 grains of FFg or FFFg powder.
                            My test was not even a full double load for a .69cal musket as
                            specified by our organization. A charge that I will also add my
                            Italian Model 1842 regularly stands without a problem. FOr a second
                            test I just poured two measured 75 grain charges down, using the
                            rammer to pack it, but without a paper cartridge.

                            In my email to Pete, I was perfectly willing to accept this was a bad
                            batch. The muskets were new, as Wendy just told me they got them in
                            October. It is quite possible defects would happen. But the fact that
                            none of these defects were even remotely checked is what scares me.
                            Pete said my test proved nothing, as water seeping out of the seam is
                            inconclusive in his eyes. Well, oil can seep out of it too. I even
                            have pictures (tried to post them last night, RevList didn't take) of
                            oil bubbling out of the seam. So Pete suggested that the breech plug
                            might not be fitted right. Why is something like this not checked
                            when the muskets arrive from India?

                            The bottom line is either before, or as a result of, my double loaded
                            blank that I have proven to myself over and over an Italian musket
                            can stand this breech plug is faulty. Either the materials in the
                            musket weren't up to snuff, or because of a lack of any kind of
                            quality control in India or in New Hampshire I was sold a musket that
                            was defective, dangerous, and potentially deadly.

                            Add to that, back on double loads, Pete advised me to proof it using
                            140 grains of powder, a patch, ball, a second patch, and a second
                            ball. Even though he mocked my "testing" method of something that
                            happens every day at a reenactment, his test would have substituted
                            10 grains of powder for two balls and two patches from what mine
                            used. Again, if mine was defective BEFORE I fired a double blank
                            (twice, I would add) or as a result of it, what would have happened
                            if I used his proofing method?

                            The rest of his muskets may be safe. I will say this, for every two
                            people that tell me their MVT Besses are doing great I either get a
                            post on a forum or a private email from someone who has nothing but
                            problems, albeit not a failure, with their MVT Long Land.

                            Maybe I'm being to harsh on these India guns. Our Italian
                            Springfields and Enfields regularly stand up to double loadings
                            either through accident or through purposefully demonstration at
                            historic sites. Our .58 and .577 caliber rifle muskets regularly
                            stand 120 grain charges. Our .69 muskets regularly stand 160 grain
                            charges. If these India guns are marketed as being the same as, and
                            as strong as, the "big names" (as Pete puts in his FAQ) as well as
                            being made to live fire, shouldn't the same safety and quality be
                            expected from them?

                            Based on this experience, I'm not trusting my life to one again. Not
                            just MVT, that goes for the whole lot of them, MVT, Military
                            Heritage, and Loyalist Arms.

                            By the way, if you guys want reports of another India gun failure
                            other than mine and that Bess that blew, go to
                            http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?
                            disc=154544;article=8923;title=First%20Georgia%20State%20Line%
                            20Discussion%20Page;pagemark=25. A Loyalist Arms Lorenz developed a
                            cracked barrel after only a 100 grain proof charge. Being .62 caliber
                            smoothbore, a double load should have been 124 grains. I've also been
                            contacted by a CW pard whose Loyalist 1840 cone in barrel blew a
                            breech plug after he proofed it to their standards. So that's four
                            India muskets that failed or blew that we know of, from at least two
                            of the three manufacturers.

                            Respectfully,

                            Justin Prince

                            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Art Kenney <wakenney@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > I don't think that there is enough information to condemn the
                            company. So the barrel had issues on a double load. What is a
                            double load, exactly? I know many people who load just enough to get
                            a flash in the pan an a flash from the muzzle. I have stood beside
                            people on the line who have loaded enough in a single round to make
                            me wonder if they aren't better equipped to man a swivel gun than a
                            musket. A double load at 80 grains, yielding 160, breaking the
                            barrel is bad, yes. A double load at 120, yielding 240, cracking or
                            deforming a barrel or breech plug is a little different.Art
                            KenneyCommander, Fluvanna County Militia"Qui pugant et fugiunt."
                            >
                            >
                            > To: Revlist@...: musketman1816@...: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:11:18
                            +0000Subject: [Revlist] Experience with MVT Co. & Muskets
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and
                            have put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them
                            without problem and have friends who have fired 100's of live rounds
                            of round ball & buckshot through them. I know that the Fowlers, the
                            LLP Muskets and the India Patterns have performed excellently. Plus,
                            the forged springs are far superior to the cheaply made "other
                            company" cast springs. When you buy a musket- have it inspected, or
                            do it yourself. Pull the breech and take a peek. I have taken some
                            apart and inspected the breech for my own curiousity- and no slot nor
                            touchhole drilled at an angle that I have seen. Could it be a bad
                            batch? very-possible.I cannot speak for anyone's experiences except
                            my own. I will not generalize an entire company based on one
                            experience- and without a definitive answer as well from a legal
                            inspection. I have seen reenactors have issues with muskets from
                            every company from Miroku, to Pedersoli to MVT Co.Thanks-Jon Kahoe
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > _________________________________________________________________
                            > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
                            > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?
                            ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Dave
                            ... wrote: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816barrelstamping.jp ... INDIA ... ***************************************** I am the one who
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@...>
                              wrote:


                              http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816barrelstamping.jp
                              > g
                              > Markings on the underside of the barrel. They read: A.H.U. UDR
                              INDIA
                              > above C/"4 digit serial number" 25/9/79. I in searching for MVT
                              > muskets on this list I found someone with a Brown Bess barrel that
                              > had the same stamping, just his S/N was lower. I've also heard on a
                              > forum that a Loyalist Arms barrel had the same marking. So much for
                              > them using different manufacturers.



                              *****************************************




                              I am the one who posted those barrel markings. This Bess has fired
                              about 50 standard 100 grain 3Fg blank rounds and has last fired 25
                              live ball rounds-.690 ball with 100 grain 2Fg charge, and no signs of
                              any breech failure yet.

                              Dave H
                              3NH
                            • Jon Kahoe
                              Information for all: Although some claim this is old news- it seems to need an update: The barrel has NOT been sent for analysis to the vendor. I contacted the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 5, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Information for all:

                                Although some claim this is old news- it seems to need an update: The
                                barrel has NOT been sent for analysis to the vendor. I contacted the
                                vendor to get some definitive answers about safety and got that clear
                                answer.

                                Once the barrel has been evaluated, beyond Justin's experiences and
                                images, I would like to know the metallugical issues from a competant
                                lab which specializes in such matters.

                                Trying to get to the bottom,
                                Jon

                                P.S.- By the way, thanks for all the hatemail from those with little
                                tolerance for investigative questions.
                              • thirdnewhampshire
                                Jon, which barrel are you referring to? The Rock Ford Bess barrel or Justin s Springfield Model 1816 barrel? Sandy Walker
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 5, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Jon, which barrel are you referring to? The Rock Ford 'Bess barrel or
                                  Justin's Springfield Model 1816 barrel?

                                  Sandy Walker

                                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Kahoe" <musketman1816@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Information for all:
                                  >
                                  > Although some claim this is old news- it seems to need an update: The
                                  > barrel has NOT been sent for analysis to the vendor. I contacted the
                                  > vendor to get some definitive answers about safety and got that clear
                                  > answer.
                                  >
                                  > Once the barrel has been evaluated, beyond Justin's experiences and
                                  > images, I would like to know the metallugical issues from a competant
                                  > lab which specializes in such matters.
                                  >
                                  > Trying to get to the bottom,
                                  > Jon
                                  >
                                  > P.S.- By the way, thanks for all the hatemail from those with little
                                  > tolerance for investigative questions.
                                  >
                                • Jon Kahoe
                                  Sandy, Thanks for that point. I was referring to the 1816 barrel- being the most recent topic for safety. But simliarly, I would like to know about the blown
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 5, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Sandy,
                                    Thanks for that point. I was referring to the 1816 barrel- being the
                                    most recent topic for safety.
                                    But simliarly, I would like to know about the blown barrel as well. I
                                    would assume some folks are getting them overlapped mentally, as did I
                                    for a few minutes.

                                    Thanks for the clarification,
                                    Jon
                                  • Justin Prince
                                    Hi guys. The thing is boxed up and ready to go. Actually got to the Post Office just after it closed since I had to drive over to my FFL dealer in the next
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Feb 5, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi guys. The thing is boxed up and ready to go. Actually got to the
                                      Post Office just after it closed since I had to drive over to my FFL
                                      dealer in the next town to get a box long enough for the barrel, so
                                      I'll send it out first thing in the morning USPS Priority. Will also
                                      get Delivery Confirmation, so I can let you guys know when MVT has it.
                                      I had to track down a box and $30 to send the barrel in, Pete just gave
                                      me a curt "send it in how you like" when I asked if he would do a call
                                      tag on it. I used an entire $5 spool of bubble wrap to cover the barrel
                                      itself so it should be good and sound when Pete gets it, as well as
                                      packed the box really tight.

                                      I also wrapped the breech section especially tight, so even if the
                                      barrel gets damaged in shipping (which one of the girls at MVT told me
                                      could *easily* happen when I called to find out how exactly to mail it)
                                      the breech section can still be investigated for defects even if the
                                      barrel is damaged beyond repair.

                                      Since some can't see the low quality cell phone pics I took numerous
                                      pictures with a good 35mm camera and some with one of the Wal Mart
                                      disposables, so by the weekend at the latest I should have some high
                                      quality shots to post.

                                      Mike Brooks, over at
                                      http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?
                                      tid/217396/tp/3/, looked at the photos of the breech and floated this
                                      theory on it:

                                      "The breeching on these Indian guns is unusual to say the least and I'm
                                      not quite sure why they do it. Instead of a standard breech plug the[y]
                                      seem to machine a plug with the profile of the barrel all the way
                                      around, thus the "seam" your seeing where all the liquids are leaking
                                      out of. I'm guessing they do this as a seal instead of properly
                                      breeching the barrel on the inside. What I'd really be annoyed with is
                                      the fact that the blasted touch hole is drilled at the bottom of the
                                      pan. That ain't going to work worth a damn. It's hard to tell from the
                                      photos, but do I see a massive gap between the back of the breech plug
                                      and the stock?"

                                      Will let you guys know the ETA for MVT having the barrel when I ship it
                                      tomorrow morning.

                                      Regards,

                                      Justin


                                      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Kahoe" <musketman1816@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Sandy,
                                      > Thanks for that point. I was referring to the 1816 barrel- being the
                                      > most recent topic for safety.
                                      > But simliarly, I would like to know about the blown barrel as well.
                                      I
                                      > would assume some folks are getting them overlapped mentally, as did
                                      I
                                      > for a few minutes.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for the clarification,
                                      > Jon
                                      >
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.