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Re: Question for those with MVTCo Muskets

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  • Keith
    Greetings Justin, I used to do a bit of Civil War reenacting myself, as a Southern Artilleryman. To answer your question about Middlesex Village s firearms, I
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 2, 2008
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      Greetings Justin,
      I used to do a bit of Civil War reenacting myself, as a Southern
      Artilleryman. To answer your question about Middlesex Village's
      firearms, I would say that they seem to strive to put only the best
      on the market. True, the guns are made in India, and there are those
      out there who would ridicule these weapons, but the musket I
      purchased from Middlesex is of very good quality. I have fired
      blanks, roundball, buck and ball, and shot through it, and have never
      had a single misfire or reason for concern. The folk at Middlesex
      have always been quick to respond to questions, and seem to be more
      than happy to help a shooter out if there is a problem.

      My gun has withstood all the normal wear and tear of both reenacting
      and Trekking, as well as a hunting trip or two, and has only a few
      minor scratches for damage. The only thing that comes to mind that
      was any kind of difficulty with my F&I "Bess", was that it tended
      to "eat" the English gray flints. Purchasing some amber French ones
      from Horst and McCann solved that problem. I am not familiar with the
      musket that you now have, as in my 1812 Militia impression, I use
      either my F&I Bess or an India pattern. In all truth, this Middlesex
      musket has given me less problems than an 1841 Mississippi rifle I
      own that was made by an Italian manufacturer.
      Maybe you might contact the folk at Middlesex about your concerns
      with the musket that you have now.
      Good luck in your reenacting!

      Your Obdt.Svt.,
      Keith Bragg
    • Larry Maxwell
      We are looking for a quantity of good quality flints. We tried French Amber Flints and had them work about 1/2 as long as the dark ones. We tried White flints
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 2, 2008
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        We are looking for a quantity of good quality flints.
        We tried French Amber Flints and had them work about 1/2 as long as the
        dark ones.
        We tried White flints and they were terrible.
        At events there are many times there aren't flints for sale, or the ones
        for sale just are not shaped well.
        I am looking for a source for reliable, long-lasting flints.
        If they are shaped well and last long, I would buy 4 dozen.
        Thank You
        Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
      • Hugh Harrington
        I use English Flints which I get from the Log Cabin Shop in Lodi, OH. These are good people and have been shooting muzzleloaders for a couple of generations
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 2, 2008
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          I use English Flints which I get from the Log Cabin Shop in Lodi, OH.
          These are good people and have been shooting muzzleloaders for a couple
          of generations and will give you good service.
          Give them a call at 800-837-1082

          Hugh Harrington

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Maxwell
          > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 1:35 PM
          > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Revlist] Which Flints are Best?
          >
          >
          > We are looking for a quantity of good quality flints.
          > We tried French Amber Flints and had them work about 1/2 as
          > long as the
          > dark ones.
          > We tried White flints and they were terrible.
          > At events there are many times there aren't flints for sale,
          > or the ones
          > for sale just are not shaped well.
          > I am looking for a source for reliable, long-lasting flints.
          > If they are shaped well and last long, I would buy 4 dozen.
          > Thank You Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
          >
          >
          >
        • Douglas Butler
          Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local gunsmith, or proof it
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 2, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for
            both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
            gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
            uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side to
            make room for a vent liner.

            As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend to
            portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
            common, and for a military group it may be more important to conform
            than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on this
            side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial you
            would be more likely to have and older musket. The British Marines
            also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I have a
            TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket is
            just the thing for my militia persona.

            SherpaDoug

            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil War
            > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma. As a
            > side living history impression I would like to put together a British
            > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
            >
            > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex Village
            > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's new
            > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd like to
            > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning the
            > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns, so any
            > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in blank and
            > live fire.
            >
            > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the group I
            > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would need to
            > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli musket, or any
            > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech plugs? The
            > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the breech just
            > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861 Springfield
            > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used the
            > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what appeared
            > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore light down
            > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going straight
            > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw where
            > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in an 'L'
            > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim of what
            > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a screw
            > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech tang the
            > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning the screw
            > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
            >
            > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges (mainly at
            > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a slight
            > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the barrel.
            > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was there
            > before I fired it.
            >
            > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do yours
            > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit in
            > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should ask on
            > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to just
            > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to this issue
            > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of the box
            > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the length,
            > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their French
            > 1777.
            >
            > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
            > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
            > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the 1742
            > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769 Short Land?
            >
            > Thanks again,
            >
            > Justin Prince
            > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
            > Indian Territory
            >
          • mario doreste
            Larry, I carry most sizes of Tom Fuller flints. the_skulking_frenchman@yahoo.com Mario Doreste Sharon Springs, NY Larry Maxwell
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
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              Larry,

              I carry most sizes of Tom Fuller flints.

              the_skulking_frenchman@...

              Mario Doreste
              Sharon Springs, NY

              Larry Maxwell <Patriot1775@...> wrote:
              We are looking for a quantity of good quality flints.
              We tried French Amber Flints and had them work about 1/2 as long as the
              dark ones.
              We tried White flints and they were terrible.
              At events there are many times there aren't flints for sale, or the ones
              for sale just are not shaped well.
              I am looking for a source for reliable, long-lasting flints.
              If they are shaped well and last long, I would buy 4 dozen.
              Thank You
              Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY






              ---------------------------------
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Justin Prince
              Thanks for all the advice. I did send an email to Pete, asking about this slot or channel . The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Thanks for all the advice.

                I did send an email to Pete, asking about this "slot" or "channel".
                The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
                unsafe, but since they hate Indian guns I wanted to be sure. I'm not
                an expert but I have seen original 1816 Breech Screws and they have
                no liner or anything, as the touch hole was put in front of the screw
                on an original. However, I got no response. I also got no response
                when I asked how the muzzle compared to an original to see if a TRS
                bayonet or a high quality Italian would fit. Nor did I get a response
                to feedback I sent on the musket, namely detailing the many ways this
                1816 was not a good replica. I phrased it politely because I figured
                the guy is a reenactor, and reenactors strive for the utmost in
                authenticity. I was also silent that he told me early last year he
                went to the Springfield NHP to do research, yet the musket only very
                generally resembled the true 1816. I kept it because other than the
                length, some reshaping of the butt and in the future (maybe) some TRS
                parts would correct it. That, and it was also a gift, and I'm too
                much of a nice guy to say "you wasted your hard earned money you
                couldn't afford on a piece of junk, send it back." That would have
                been a slap in the face to my parents who so desperately want to
                support my reenacting addiction.

                Well Friday night I decided to blank proof it. I had read on
                www.cwreenactor.com/forum that a Loyalist Arms made Lorenz cracked on
                blank proofing. So I figure fire a double blank (something that
                happens all the time in reenacting) and see if any obvious cracks
                appear. Then I can go back and do Pete's double load, double ball
                proof.

                Well, the musket failed the blank proof. I didn't measure the barrel
                (after all, IF it is advertised as live firing it should withstand a
                simple double blank) but water can now seep out of the seem where the
                breechplug screws into the barrel. NOT GOOD! So I emailed Pete, told
                him about the problem, and asked for a refund. I figured he wouldn't
                give me one since I reshaped the butt (albeit to something that
                actually looked like an 1816) but I had sent emails from the day I
                got the musket telling him how dissatisfied I was. The musket was by
                no means an authentic (or even attempt at authentic) copy of an 1816,
                the lock continually hangs up on half cock, it has a wierd breech
                screw that my pards on the Civil War Forum, even one who builds
                competition guns, told me was unsafe, and now the barrel is faulty.

                In his reply I got little more than a scathing personal attack. He
                said he would repair or replace the barrel, but also criticized me
                for "making up my own test" instead of following his "documented"
                proof test to test the musket. I'm sorry, but if it is faulty by
                firing a double blank, something that I have accidentally done in my
                Italian Springfield and I see historical interpreters do all the time
                in their Italian guns because they can take it easily, how can this
                India gun be even remotely safe to fire live? He then criticized me
                for being a reenactor and not a gunsmith, attacked my cleaning
                methods which work on Italian muskets but apparently fail miserable
                at Indian muskets... or at least the flash channel part, he accused
                me of altering the lock (because I tightened the sear and bridle
                screw as opposed to filing off stuff like he told me I could do in an
                email), and flaunted his knowledge of originals to me all the while
                defending something made in no way like the originals.

                I even tried to be polite in my email to him, stating how enjoyable
                his company was to deal with, I loved their response time, and it was
                only the quality of the product I didn't like. I even went so far as
                to say I would like to give him the benefit of a doubt that it is
                just this new kind of musket. But there was most certainly no call
                for the content of his email back to me. He criticized my proofing
                methods, yet no where on his website does his company even say the
                muskets should be proofed.

                At any rate, I'm sending the barrel in tomorrow, and when it
                is "fixed" or "replaced" I am putting the musket up for sale. I'm not
                going to try one of the other guns, or from one of the other
                importers, because I had been contacted by countless other people
                with problems from Indian muskets. So for me, I'm sticking with the
                Italian repros. It looks like that TRS Bess is going to have to wait,
                because I still need an 1816 for my new impression and the only guys
                in town for me now are Pedersoli or TRS. I'm not saying all Indian
                guns or even all MVT guns are unsafe, but in my case either the
                quality and materials weren't up to snuff, which is bad enough, or
                the musket wasn't even checked at MVT for a loose plug, which is far
                worse in my opinion.

                Thanks guys for all your help, you RevWar guys are ok in my book.
                Maybe one of these days I'll move out to the East Coast and fall in
                with you guys.

                Justin


                --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Butler" <sherpadoug@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for
                > both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
                > gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
                > uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side to
                > make room for a vent liner.
                >
                > As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend to
                > portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
                > common, and for a military group it may be more important to conform
                > than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on this
                > side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial you
                > would be more likely to have and older musket. The British Marines
                > also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I
                have a
                > TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket is
                > just the thing for my militia persona.
                >
                > SherpaDoug
                >
                > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@>
                wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil War
                > > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma. As a
                > > side living history impression I would like to put together a
                British
                > > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
                > >
                > > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex
                Village
                > > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's
                new
                > > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd like
                to
                > > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning the
                > > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns, so
                any
                > > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in blank
                and
                > > live fire.
                > >
                > > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the group I
                > > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would need
                to
                > > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli musket, or
                any
                > > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech plugs?
                The
                > > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the breech
                just
                > > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861
                Springfield
                > > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used the
                > > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what
                appeared
                > > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore light
                down
                > > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going
                straight
                > > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw
                where
                > > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in
                an 'L'
                > > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim of
                what
                > > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a
                screw
                > > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech tang
                the
                > > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning the
                screw
                > > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
                > >
                > > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges (mainly
                at
                > > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a
                slight
                > > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the barrel.
                > > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was there
                > > before I fired it.
                > >
                > > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do
                yours
                > > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit in
                > > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should
                ask on
                > > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to
                just
                > > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to this
                issue
                > > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of the
                box
                > > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the
                length,
                > > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their French
                > > 1777.
                > >
                > > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
                > > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
                > > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the
                1742
                > > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769 Short
                Land?
                > >
                > > Thanks again,
                > >
                > > Justin Prince
                > > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
                > > Indian Territory
                > >
                >
              • James B
                Dr Larry, The 5th NY uses the Black English flints By Fuller from Track Of the Wolf . We also advise using lead sheet, not leather for the flint pad. Corporal
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
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                  Dr Larry, The 5th NY uses the Black English flints By Fuller
                  from "Track Of the Wolf". We also advise using lead sheet, not
                  leather for the flint pad. Corporal J. Burr


                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Larry Maxwell <Patriot1775@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > We are looking for a quantity of good quality flints.
                  > We tried French Amber Flints and had them work about 1/2 as long as
                  the
                  > dark ones.
                  > We tried White flints and they were terrible.
                  > At events there are many times there aren't flints for sale, or the
                  ones
                  > for sale just are not shaped well.
                  > I am looking for a source for reliable, long-lasting flints.
                  > If they are shaped well and last long, I would buy 4 dozen.
                  > Thank You
                  > Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
                  >
                • John Ogden
                  In having attempted to purchase a Highland pistol some time back, this experience is about typical for MVTC s approach to customer service. I never got the
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    In having attempted to purchase a Highland pistol some time back, this
                    experience is about typical for MVTC's approach to customer service. I
                    never got the pistol, but after 8 months and, finally, threat of legal
                    action I did get the money back. Now if Justin will be so kind as to post
                    photos of this cracked seam, we have documentation for at least two Indian
                    made muskets failing within the last 7 months. Again, what is the source
                    for the prior piece?

                    On Feb 3, 2008 5:34 PM, Justin Prince <Tankerace_42@...> wrote:

                    > Thanks for all the advice.
                    >
                    > I did send an email to Pete, asking about this "slot" or "channel".
                    > The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
                    > unsafe, but since they hate Indian guns I wanted to be sure. I'm not
                    > an expert but I have seen original 1816 Breech Screws and they have
                    > no liner or anything, as the touch hole was put in front of the screw
                    > on an original. However, I got no response. I also got no response
                    > when I asked how the muzzle compared to an original to see if a TRS
                    > bayonet or a high quality Italian would fit. Nor did I get a response
                    > to feedback I sent on the musket, namely detailing the many ways this
                    > 1816 was not a good replica. I phrased it politely because I figured
                    > the guy is a reenactor, and reenactors strive for the utmost in
                    > authenticity. I was also silent that he told me early last year he
                    > went to the Springfield NHP to do research, yet the musket only very
                    > generally resembled the true 1816. I kept it because other than the
                    > length, some reshaping of the butt and in the future (maybe) some TRS
                    > parts would correct it. That, and it was also a gift, and I'm too
                    > much of a nice guy to say "you wasted your hard earned money you
                    > couldn't afford on a piece of junk, send it back." That would have
                    > been a slap in the face to my parents who so desperately want to
                    > support my reenacting addiction.
                    >
                    > Well Friday night I decided to blank proof it. I had read on
                    > www.cwreenactor.com/forum that a Loyalist Arms made Lorenz cracked on
                    > blank proofing. So I figure fire a double blank (something that
                    > happens all the time in reenacting) and see if any obvious cracks
                    > appear. Then I can go back and do Pete's double load, double ball
                    > proof.
                    >
                    > Well, the musket failed the blank proof. I didn't measure the barrel
                    > (after all, IF it is advertised as live firing it should withstand a
                    > simple double blank) but water can now seep out of the seem where the
                    > breechplug screws into the barrel. NOT GOOD! So I emailed Pete, told
                    > him about the problem, and asked for a refund. I figured he wouldn't
                    > give me one since I reshaped the butt (albeit to something that
                    > actually looked like an 1816) but I had sent emails from the day I
                    > got the musket telling him how dissatisfied I was. The musket was by
                    > no means an authentic (or even attempt at authentic) copy of an 1816,
                    > the lock continually hangs up on half cock, it has a wierd breech
                    > screw that my pards on the Civil War Forum, even one who builds
                    > competition guns, told me was unsafe, and now the barrel is faulty.
                    >
                    > In his reply I got little more than a scathing personal attack. He
                    > said he would repair or replace the barrel, but also criticized me
                    > for "making up my own test" instead of following his "documented"
                    > proof test to test the musket. I'm sorry, but if it is faulty by
                    > firing a double blank, something that I have accidentally done in my
                    > Italian Springfield and I see historical interpreters do all the time
                    > in their Italian guns because they can take it easily, how can this
                    > India gun be even remotely safe to fire live? He then criticized me
                    > for being a reenactor and not a gunsmith, attacked my cleaning
                    > methods which work on Italian muskets but apparently fail miserable
                    > at Indian muskets... or at least the flash channel part, he accused
                    > me of altering the lock (because I tightened the sear and bridle
                    > screw as opposed to filing off stuff like he told me I could do in an
                    > email), and flaunted his knowledge of originals to me all the while
                    > defending something made in no way like the originals.
                    >
                    > I even tried to be polite in my email to him, stating how enjoyable
                    > his company was to deal with, I loved their response time, and it was
                    > only the quality of the product I didn't like. I even went so far as
                    > to say I would like to give him the benefit of a doubt that it is
                    > just this new kind of musket. But there was most certainly no call
                    > for the content of his email back to me. He criticized my proofing
                    > methods, yet no where on his website does his company even say the
                    > muskets should be proofed.
                    >
                    > At any rate, I'm sending the barrel in tomorrow, and when it
                    > is "fixed" or "replaced" I am putting the musket up for sale. I'm not
                    > going to try one of the other guns, or from one of the other
                    > importers, because I had been contacted by countless other people
                    > with problems from Indian muskets. So for me, I'm sticking with the
                    > Italian repros. It looks like that TRS Bess is going to have to wait,
                    > because I still need an 1816 for my new impression and the only guys
                    > in town for me now are Pedersoli or TRS. I'm not saying all Indian
                    > guns or even all MVT guns are unsafe, but in my case either the
                    > quality and materials weren't up to snuff, which is bad enough, or
                    > the musket wasn't even checked at MVT for a loose plug, which is far
                    > worse in my opinion.
                    >
                    > Thanks guys for all your help, you RevWar guys are ok in my book.
                    > Maybe one of these days I'll move out to the East Coast and fall in
                    > with you guys.
                    >
                    > Justin
                    >
                    > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Douglas
                    > Butler" <sherpadoug@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for
                    > > both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
                    > > gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
                    > > uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side to
                    > > make room for a vent liner.
                    > >
                    > > As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend to
                    > > portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
                    > > common, and for a military group it may be more important to conform
                    > > than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on this
                    > > side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial you
                    > > would be more likely to have and older musket. The British Marines
                    > > also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I
                    > have a
                    > > TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket is
                    > > just the thing for my militia persona.
                    > >
                    > > SherpaDoug
                    > >
                    > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Justin
                    > Prince" <Tankerace_42@>
                    > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil War
                    > > > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma. As a
                    > > > side living history impression I would like to put together a
                    > British
                    > > > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
                    > > >
                    > > > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex
                    > Village
                    > > > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's
                    > new
                    > > > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd like
                    > to
                    > > > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning the
                    > > > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns, so
                    > any
                    > > > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in blank
                    > and
                    > > > live fire.
                    > > >
                    > > > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the group I
                    > > > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would need
                    > to
                    > > > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli musket, or
                    > any
                    > > > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech plugs?
                    > The
                    > > > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the breech
                    > just
                    > > > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861
                    > Springfield
                    > > > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used the
                    > > > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what
                    > appeared
                    > > > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore light
                    > down
                    > > > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going
                    > straight
                    > > > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw
                    > where
                    > > > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in
                    > an 'L'
                    > > > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim of
                    > what
                    > > > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a
                    > screw
                    > > > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech tang
                    > the
                    > > > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning the
                    > screw
                    > > > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
                    > > >
                    > > > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges (mainly
                    > at
                    > > > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a
                    > slight
                    > > > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the barrel.
                    > > > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was there
                    > > > before I fired it.
                    > > >
                    > > > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do
                    > yours
                    > > > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit in
                    > > > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should
                    > ask on
                    > > > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to
                    > just
                    > > > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to this
                    > issue
                    > > > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of the
                    > box
                    > > > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the
                    > length,
                    > > > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their French
                    > > > 1777.
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
                    > > > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
                    > > > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the
                    > 1742
                    > > > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769 Short
                    > Land?
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks again,
                    > > >
                    > > > Justin Prince
                    > > > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
                    > > > Indian Territory
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    --
                    John J. Ogden
                    Hanley School of Law
                    Duquesne University
                    Class of 2011

                    "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
                    in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
                    particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
                    Madison, June 20, 1785


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Justin Prince
                    John sir, if it is photos you want, it is photos you shall have. They are only camera phone captures, but I ll take some with a good camera shots before I box
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      John sir, if it is photos you want, it is photos you shall have. They
                      are only camera phone captures, but I'll take some with a good camera
                      shots before I box up the barrel tomorrow. Pete can try to cover this
                      up, but the world needs to know about these "pipebombs" as we call
                      them in the CW hobby.

                      And you guys were in luck. I pulled the stock out of the barrel to
                      get pictures, and at one of the seems oil had bubbled out of the
                      musket. It is low quality, but plainly visible. To try and snowball
                      me Pete tried to tell me that water seeping out of the breech wasn't
                      conclusive, it could have come out of the touchhole. I say this to
                      Mr. Pete Plunkett: Here sir, is your proof. And the world shall know
                      it.

                      Also guys, I want to post a snippet of the email he sent. Compare it
                      and his discrediting of my Proofing methods with the pictures I will
                      post in this email.

                      From Pete Plunkett, President of MVTCo: "Why do you have water
                      leaking out of your breech? I don't know, and can't make a reasonable
                      guess based on your "testing" methods. Were there any black streaks
                      there when you fired it with blanks or your "proof" firing?
                      Electrical tape is not water tight and proves nothing. I suppose it
                      is possible that the plug isn't fitted right, but if so that can be
                      fixed."

                      So, he can't tell me why the plug may be faulty based on blanks only.
                      He tries to discredit my testing methods (a double loaded blank. I've
                      done it my hobby, how many of you have done it in yours? This musket
                      couldn't stand it, but apparently that's no test). Then he admits
                      that the plug may not be fitted right. So wait, let's think about
                      that for a second. He defends the musket tooth and nail telling me,
                      there is nothing wrong with it. But it may not have been fitted
                      right, but he sold it anyway. So either 1) He never checked the
                      musket when it arrived in the states and negligently sold me a
                      defective firearm because he provided NO measure of quality control
                      on either side of the Atlantic, or 2) he checked it and either didn't
                      know how to fit a breech plug or didn't care, and criminally sold me
                      a defective firearm anyway all the while claiming he is the gun
                      expert and I'm not, and that it was perfectly safe to live fire. At
                      this point I don't care wether the musket is made of steel or
                      aluminum. This man is selling a defective product that he isn't
                      bothering to check before he sends it to you. Then he doesn't say you
                      HAVE to proof it. Or you SHOULD proof it. He says you can buy it, ram
                      a ball and charge down and shoot it when you yank it out of the box.
                      With my seam split either before or after a blank, what would have
                      happened to me?

                      Here are the after photos, just taken about 10 minutes ago.

                      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816BlownBreechTH.jpg
                      This is the right seam, notice how big it is. Also note how close the
                      touchhole is to the breech plug tang. No wonder it could've backed
                      out under just a blank.

                      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816BlownBreech3.jpg
                      This is a low quality shot, but notice how big the seam is. I know on
                      my Civil War muskets (which as Pete reminded me are NOT flintlocks,
                      but I disagree with his assertion that is irrelevant) I can barely
                      see the seam.

                      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816BlownBreech2.jpg
                      Here is the right seam. Notice the oil that leaked out of the seam.
                      This was the seam where I saw the water coming out.

                      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816BlownBreech1.jpg
                      Here is the right seam above the touchhole. When I was rolling the
                      barrel around to get good shots, more oil bubbled out. This one is
                      clear and distinctive.

                      Now the before pictures. I had fired maybe 8 or 10 blanks by the time
                      I took these, but low 60 or 80 grain charges. Includes photos around
                      the barrel or breech.

                      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816pluglength.jpg
                      Measurement of the touch hole to plug. Pete rambled on about how its
                      based on originals, but a quick look at
                      http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/091228000/91228507/pix1739251390.jpg
                      and
                      http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/091228000/91228507/pix1739251281.jpg
                      show just how far forward the barrel/breech or how far back the lock
                      is.

                      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816breechsection.jpg
                      Here is the rear of the breech. By this time I had fired about 8 or
                      10 low charge blanks, but not the double loaded blank. Notice the
                      three dimples.

                      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816breech.jpg
                      Seam on the bottom of the breech and barrel. Also note the chip. That
                      was there from the first day I got it. Naively I had assumed Pete had
                      checked these things before he sold it to me. Guess I was wrong.
                      Also, after my double blank proofing I found fouling there.

                      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816barrelstamping.jp
                      g
                      Markings on the underside of the barrel. They read: A.H.U. UDR INDIA
                      above C/"4 digit serial number" 25/9/79. I in searching for MVT
                      muskets on this list I found someone with a Brown Bess barrel that
                      had the same stamping, just his S/N was lower. I've also heard on a
                      forum that a Loyalist Arms barrel had the same marking. So much for
                      them using different manufacturers.

                      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816touchhole.jpg
                      Wider shot of the right seem, before double blank.

                      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816rammeroutofslot.j
                      pg
                      How far the rammer protrudes when it is on the actual face of the
                      breech screw.

                      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816rammerinslot.jpg
                      How far it protrudes when the threaded end of the ramrod can easily
                      get stuck in the flash channel.

                      Well lads, there is your documentation. I don't care what Pete says,
                      if I had double ball proofed this thing with either an inferiorly
                      constructed breech plug or one that he, his MVT gunsmiths, or the
                      guys earning $1 a day in India couldn't figure out how to fit the
                      barrel would have burst of the breech plug shot out. Or it would have
                      been so weakened that after prolonged firing it would have happened.
                      At first I thought that Bess that blew in November was user error. In
                      an email Pete all but told me it was. Now I am convinced that one of
                      these wallhanging pipebombs blew.

                      I really don't care about the fact my particular musket borders on
                      false advertisement claiming it is a replica of the U.S. Model 1816.
                      What I'm concerned about is someone is going to get killed on one of
                      these Indian guns. My CW unit is a campaigner unit and forbids Indian
                      guns. I don't think I, or most in my hobby have to worry. What I'm
                      scared of is all you guys standing in double ranks blasting away with
                      Pete's Besses, and the potential of when, not if, a musket will
                      explode again. One failed in December, it fired less than 50 blanks.
                      Mine failed in February, it fired maybe a dozen. That's not a good
                      safety record at all.

                      Yours,

                      Justin Prince


                      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John Ogden" <johnjogden@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > In having attempted to purchase a Highland pistol some time back,
                      this
                      > experience is about typical for MVTC's approach to customer
                      service. I
                      > never got the pistol, but after 8 months and, finally, threat of
                      legal
                      > action I did get the money back. Now if Justin will be so kind as
                      to post
                      > photos of this cracked seam, we have documentation for at least two
                      Indian
                      > made muskets failing within the last 7 months. Again, what is the
                      source
                      > for the prior piece?
                      >
                      > On Feb 3, 2008 5:34 PM, Justin Prince <Tankerace_42@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Thanks for all the advice.
                      > >
                      > > I did send an email to Pete, asking about this "slot"
                      or "channel".
                      > > The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
                      > > unsafe, but since they hate Indian guns I wanted to be sure. I'm
                      not
                      > > an expert but I have seen original 1816 Breech Screws and they
                      have
                      > > no liner or anything, as the touch hole was put in front of the
                      screw
                      > > on an original. However, I got no response. I also got no response
                      > > when I asked how the muzzle compared to an original to see if a
                      TRS
                      > > bayonet or a high quality Italian would fit. Nor did I get a
                      response
                      > > to feedback I sent on the musket, namely detailing the many ways
                      this
                      > > 1816 was not a good replica. I phrased it politely because I
                      figured
                      > > the guy is a reenactor, and reenactors strive for the utmost in
                      > > authenticity. I was also silent that he told me early last year he
                      > > went to the Springfield NHP to do research, yet the musket only
                      very
                      > > generally resembled the true 1816. I kept it because other than
                      the
                      > > length, some reshaping of the butt and in the future (maybe) some
                      TRS
                      > > parts would correct it. That, and it was also a gift, and I'm too
                      > > much of a nice guy to say "you wasted your hard earned money you
                      > > couldn't afford on a piece of junk, send it back." That would have
                      > > been a slap in the face to my parents who so desperately want to
                      > > support my reenacting addiction.
                      > >
                      > > Well Friday night I decided to blank proof it. I had read on
                      > > www.cwreenactor.com/forum that a Loyalist Arms made Lorenz
                      cracked on
                      > > blank proofing. So I figure fire a double blank (something that
                      > > happens all the time in reenacting) and see if any obvious cracks
                      > > appear. Then I can go back and do Pete's double load, double ball
                      > > proof.
                      > >
                      > > Well, the musket failed the blank proof. I didn't measure the
                      barrel
                      > > (after all, IF it is advertised as live firing it should
                      withstand a
                      > > simple double blank) but water can now seep out of the seem where
                      the
                      > > breechplug screws into the barrel. NOT GOOD! So I emailed Pete,
                      told
                      > > him about the problem, and asked for a refund. I figured he
                      wouldn't
                      > > give me one since I reshaped the butt (albeit to something that
                      > > actually looked like an 1816) but I had sent emails from the day I
                      > > got the musket telling him how dissatisfied I was. The musket was
                      by
                      > > no means an authentic (or even attempt at authentic) copy of an
                      1816,
                      > > the lock continually hangs up on half cock, it has a wierd breech
                      > > screw that my pards on the Civil War Forum, even one who builds
                      > > competition guns, told me was unsafe, and now the barrel is
                      faulty.
                      > >
                      > > In his reply I got little more than a scathing personal attack. He
                      > > said he would repair or replace the barrel, but also criticized me
                      > > for "making up my own test" instead of following his "documented"
                      > > proof test to test the musket. I'm sorry, but if it is faulty by
                      > > firing a double blank, something that I have accidentally done in
                      my
                      > > Italian Springfield and I see historical interpreters do all the
                      time
                      > > in their Italian guns because they can take it easily, how can
                      this
                      > > India gun be even remotely safe to fire live? He then criticized
                      me
                      > > for being a reenactor and not a gunsmith, attacked my cleaning
                      > > methods which work on Italian muskets but apparently fail
                      miserable
                      > > at Indian muskets... or at least the flash channel part, he
                      accused
                      > > me of altering the lock (because I tightened the sear and bridle
                      > > screw as opposed to filing off stuff like he told me I could do
                      in an
                      > > email), and flaunted his knowledge of originals to me all the
                      while
                      > > defending something made in no way like the originals.
                      > >
                      > > I even tried to be polite in my email to him, stating how
                      enjoyable
                      > > his company was to deal with, I loved their response time, and it
                      was
                      > > only the quality of the product I didn't like. I even went so far
                      as
                      > > to say I would like to give him the benefit of a doubt that it is
                      > > just this new kind of musket. But there was most certainly no call
                      > > for the content of his email back to me. He criticized my proofing
                      > > methods, yet no where on his website does his company even say the
                      > > muskets should be proofed.
                      > >
                      > > At any rate, I'm sending the barrel in tomorrow, and when it
                      > > is "fixed" or "replaced" I am putting the musket up for sale. I'm
                      not
                      > > going to try one of the other guns, or from one of the other
                      > > importers, because I had been contacted by countless other people
                      > > with problems from Indian muskets. So for me, I'm sticking with
                      the
                      > > Italian repros. It looks like that TRS Bess is going to have to
                      wait,
                      > > because I still need an 1816 for my new impression and the only
                      guys
                      > > in town for me now are Pedersoli or TRS. I'm not saying all Indian
                      > > guns or even all MVT guns are unsafe, but in my case either the
                      > > quality and materials weren't up to snuff, which is bad enough, or
                      > > the musket wasn't even checked at MVT for a loose plug, which is
                      far
                      > > worse in my opinion.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks guys for all your help, you RevWar guys are ok in my book.
                      > > Maybe one of these days I'll move out to the East Coast and fall
                      in
                      > > with you guys.
                      > >
                      > > Justin
                      > >
                      > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%
                      40yahoogroups.com>, "Douglas
                      > > Butler" <sherpadoug@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets
                      for
                      > > > both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
                      > > > gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
                      > > > uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side
                      to
                      > > > make room for a vent liner.
                      > > >
                      > > > As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend
                      to
                      > > > portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
                      > > > common, and for a military group it may be more important to
                      conform
                      > > > than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on
                      this
                      > > > side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial
                      you
                      > > > would be more likely to have and older musket. The British
                      Marines
                      > > > also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I
                      > > have a
                      > > > TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket
                      is
                      > > > just the thing for my militia persona.
                      > > >
                      > > > SherpaDoug
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%
                      40yahoogroups.com>, "Justin
                      > > Prince" <Tankerace_42@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil
                      War
                      > > > > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma.
                      As a
                      > > > > side living history impression I would like to put together a
                      > > British
                      > > > > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex
                      > > Village
                      > > > > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's
                      > > new
                      > > > > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd
                      like
                      > > to
                      > > > > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning
                      the
                      > > > > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns,
                      so
                      > > any
                      > > > > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in
                      blank
                      > > and
                      > > > > live fire.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the
                      group I
                      > > > > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would
                      need
                      > > to
                      > > > > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli
                      musket, or
                      > > any
                      > > > > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech
                      plugs?
                      > > The
                      > > > > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the
                      breech
                      > > just
                      > > > > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861
                      > > Springfield
                      > > > > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used
                      the
                      > > > > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what
                      > > appeared
                      > > > > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore
                      light
                      > > down
                      > > > > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going
                      > > straight
                      > > > > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw
                      > > where
                      > > > > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in
                      > > an 'L'
                      > > > > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim
                      of
                      > > what
                      > > > > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a
                      > > screw
                      > > > > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech
                      tang
                      > > the
                      > > > > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning
                      the
                      > > screw
                      > > > > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges
                      (mainly
                      > > at
                      > > > > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a
                      > > slight
                      > > > > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the
                      barrel.
                      > > > > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was
                      there
                      > > > > before I fired it.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do
                      > > yours
                      > > > > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit
                      in
                      > > > > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should
                      > > ask on
                      > > > > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to
                      > > just
                      > > > > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to
                      this
                      > > issue
                      > > > > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of
                      the
                      > > box
                      > > > > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the
                      > > length,
                      > > > > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their
                      French
                      > > > > 1777.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
                      > > > > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
                      > > > > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the
                      > > 1742
                      > > > > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769
                      Short
                      > > Land?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thanks again,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Justin Prince
                      > > > > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
                      > > > > Indian Territory
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > John J. Ogden
                      > Hanley School of Law
                      > Duquesne University
                      > Class of 2011
                      >
                      > "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish
                      Christianity
                      > in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same
                      ease, any
                      > particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" --
                      James
                      > Madison, June 20, 1785
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Jon Kahoe
                      For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without problem and have
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have
                        put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without
                        problem and have friends who have fired 100's of live rounds of round
                        ball & buckshot through them. I know that the Fowlers, the LLP Muskets
                        and the India Patterns have performed excellently.
                        Plus, the forged springs are far superior to the cheaply made "other
                        company" cast springs. When you buy a musket- have it inspected, or do
                        it yourself. Pull the breech and take a peek. I have taken some apart
                        and inspected the breech for my own curiousity- and no slot nor
                        touchhole drilled at an angle that I have seen. Could it be a bad
                        batch? very-possible.

                        I cannot speak for anyone's experiences except my own. I will not
                        generalize an entire company based on one experience- and without a
                        definitive answer as well from a legal inspection. I have seen
                        reenactors have issues with muskets from every company from Miroku, to
                        Pedersoli to MVT Co.

                        Thanks-
                        Jon Kahoe
                      • Jon Kahoe
                        For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without problem and have
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have
                          put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without
                          problem and have friends who have fired 100's of live rounds of round
                          ball & buckshot through them. I know that the Fowlers, the LLP Muskets
                          and the India Patterns have performed excellently.
                          Plus, the forged springs are far superior to the cheaply made "other
                          company" cast springs. When you buy a musket- have it inspected, or do
                          it yourself. Pull the breech and take a peek. I have taken some apart
                          and inspected the breech for my own curiousity- and no slot nor
                          touchhole drilled at an angle that I have seen. Could it be a bad
                          batch? very-possible.

                          I cannot speak for anyone's experiences except my own. I will not
                          generalize an entire company based on one experience- and without a
                          definitive answer as well from a legal inspection. I have seen
                          reenactors have issues with muskets from every company from Miroku, to
                          Pedersoli to MVT Co.

                          Thanks-
                          Jon Kahoe
                        • thirdnewhampshire
                          With regards to the slot in the breech plug mentioned by Justin on the India made 1816 musket, Jean Boudriot in his book Armes A Feu Francaises Modeles
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
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                            With regards to the "slot" in the breech plug mentioned by Justin on
                            the India made 1816 musket, Jean Boudriot in his book "Armes A Feu
                            Francaises Modeles Reglementaires 1717 - 1836" describes major points
                            of interest on page 72 for the Model 1763 (heavy) musket. The M1763
                            (heavy) is the forerunner of the "Charleville" (the French called it
                            the M1763 (light) and/or M1766) made in Japan, Italy, and India many
                            of us carry.

                            The point of interest here is: "The threaded portion of the breech
                            plug is notched on the side of the vent, the tang of the breech plug
                            is 0,063 m (2 inches 4 lines) long, its end is rounded and it is bored
                            for the trigger guard screw." (NOTE, in his book these measurements
                            are "French" inches, 2 pouces 4 lignes; however, he does include the
                            metric measurement with the "inch" in parenthesis).

                            In his description of the Model 1777 (the inspiration for our Model
                            1816) he does not mention anything about the breech plug but does say
                            the "1st production" barrels are similar to the M1763 and the 2nd
                            production, around 1783 the shape of the barrel itself changes to
                            having five flats similar to the AN IX.

                            Quite a bit later in "The Ordnance Manual For The Use Of The Officers
                            of the United States Army", 1850 Second Edition, the following
                            statement is found on page 171 under "Inspection of Barrels": "The
                            vent should enter the bore of the barrel clear of the end of the
                            breech screw".

                            From this it appears that in the mid-18th century the French DID
                            intend the vent to enter the barrel slightly BEHIND the face of the
                            breech plug necessitating a "slot" but by at least the middle of the
                            1800's the US Army intended the vent to enter the barrel AHEAD of the
                            breech plug.

                            This may help explain 1: the concern the Civil War re-enactors had for
                            the "slot" in the breech plug of the India-made Model 1816 and 2: the
                            presence of the "slot" in the India reproduction. I do not have any
                            information whether the British "notched" their breech plugs or not.

                            Sandy Walker

                            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks for all the advice.
                            >
                            > I did send an email to Pete, asking about this "slot" or "channel".
                            > The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
                            > unsafe, but since they hate Indian guns I wanted to be sure. I'm not
                            > an expert but I have seen original 1816 Breech Screws and they have
                            > no liner or anything, as the touch hole was put in front of the screw
                            > on an original. However, I got no response. I also got no response
                            > when I asked how the muzzle compared to an original to see if a TRS
                            > bayonet or a high quality Italian would fit. Nor did I get a response
                            > to feedback I sent on the musket, namely detailing the many ways this
                            > 1816 was not a good replica. I phrased it politely because I figured
                            > the guy is a reenactor, and reenactors strive for the utmost in
                            > authenticity. I was also silent that he told me early last year he
                            > went to the Springfield NHP to do research, yet the musket only very
                            > generally resembled the true 1816. I kept it because other than the
                            > length, some reshaping of the butt and in the future (maybe) some TRS
                            > parts would correct it. That, and it was also a gift, and I'm too
                            > much of a nice guy to say "you wasted your hard earned money you
                            > couldn't afford on a piece of junk, send it back." That would have
                            > been a slap in the face to my parents who so desperately want to
                            > support my reenacting addiction.
                            >
                            > Well Friday night I decided to blank proof it. I had read on
                            > www.cwreenactor.com/forum that a Loyalist Arms made Lorenz cracked on
                            > blank proofing. So I figure fire a double blank (something that
                            > happens all the time in reenacting) and see if any obvious cracks
                            > appear. Then I can go back and do Pete's double load, double ball
                            > proof.
                            >
                            > Well, the musket failed the blank proof. I didn't measure the barrel
                            > (after all, IF it is advertised as live firing it should withstand a
                            > simple double blank) but water can now seep out of the seem where the
                            > breechplug screws into the barrel. NOT GOOD! So I emailed Pete, told
                            > him about the problem, and asked for a refund. I figured he wouldn't
                            > give me one since I reshaped the butt (albeit to something that
                            > actually looked like an 1816) but I had sent emails from the day I
                            > got the musket telling him how dissatisfied I was. The musket was by
                            > no means an authentic (or even attempt at authentic) copy of an 1816,
                            > the lock continually hangs up on half cock, it has a wierd breech
                            > screw that my pards on the Civil War Forum, even one who builds
                            > competition guns, told me was unsafe, and now the barrel is faulty.
                            >
                            > In his reply I got little more than a scathing personal attack. He
                            > said he would repair or replace the barrel, but also criticized me
                            > for "making up my own test" instead of following his "documented"
                            > proof test to test the musket. I'm sorry, but if it is faulty by
                            > firing a double blank, something that I have accidentally done in my
                            > Italian Springfield and I see historical interpreters do all the time
                            > in their Italian guns because they can take it easily, how can this
                            > India gun be even remotely safe to fire live? He then criticized me
                            > for being a reenactor and not a gunsmith, attacked my cleaning
                            > methods which work on Italian muskets but apparently fail miserable
                            > at Indian muskets... or at least the flash channel part, he accused
                            > me of altering the lock (because I tightened the sear and bridle
                            > screw as opposed to filing off stuff like he told me I could do in an
                            > email), and flaunted his knowledge of originals to me all the while
                            > defending something made in no way like the originals.
                            >
                            > I even tried to be polite in my email to him, stating how enjoyable
                            > his company was to deal with, I loved their response time, and it was
                            > only the quality of the product I didn't like. I even went so far as
                            > to say I would like to give him the benefit of a doubt that it is
                            > just this new kind of musket. But there was most certainly no call
                            > for the content of his email back to me. He criticized my proofing
                            > methods, yet no where on his website does his company even say the
                            > muskets should be proofed.
                            >
                            > At any rate, I'm sending the barrel in tomorrow, and when it
                            > is "fixed" or "replaced" I am putting the musket up for sale. I'm not
                            > going to try one of the other guns, or from one of the other
                            > importers, because I had been contacted by countless other people
                            > with problems from Indian muskets. So for me, I'm sticking with the
                            > Italian repros. It looks like that TRS Bess is going to have to wait,
                            > because I still need an 1816 for my new impression and the only guys
                            > in town for me now are Pedersoli or TRS. I'm not saying all Indian
                            > guns or even all MVT guns are unsafe, but in my case either the
                            > quality and materials weren't up to snuff, which is bad enough, or
                            > the musket wasn't even checked at MVT for a loose plug, which is far
                            > worse in my opinion.
                            >
                            > Thanks guys for all your help, you RevWar guys are ok in my book.
                            > Maybe one of these days I'll move out to the East Coast and fall in
                            > with you guys.
                            >
                            > Justin
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Butler" <sherpadoug@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for
                            > > both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
                            > > gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
                            > > uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side to
                            > > make room for a vent liner.
                            > >
                            > > As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend to
                            > > portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
                            > > common, and for a military group it may be more important to conform
                            > > than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on this
                            > > side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial you
                            > > would be more likely to have and older musket. The British Marines
                            > > also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I
                            > have a
                            > > TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket is
                            > > just the thing for my militia persona.
                            > >
                            > > SherpaDoug
                            > >
                            > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@>
                            > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil War
                            > > > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma. As a
                            > > > side living history impression I would like to put together a
                            > British
                            > > > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
                            > > >
                            > > > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex
                            > Village
                            > > > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's
                            > new
                            > > > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd like
                            > to
                            > > > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning the
                            > > > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns, so
                            > any
                            > > > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in blank
                            > and
                            > > > live fire.
                            > > >
                            > > > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the group I
                            > > > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would need
                            > to
                            > > > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli musket, or
                            > any
                            > > > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech plugs?
                            > The
                            > > > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the breech
                            > just
                            > > > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861
                            > Springfield
                            > > > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used the
                            > > > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what
                            > appeared
                            > > > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore light
                            > down
                            > > > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going
                            > straight
                            > > > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw
                            > where
                            > > > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in
                            > an 'L'
                            > > > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim of
                            > what
                            > > > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a
                            > screw
                            > > > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech tang
                            > the
                            > > > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning the
                            > screw
                            > > > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
                            > > >
                            > > > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges (mainly
                            > at
                            > > > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a
                            > slight
                            > > > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the barrel.
                            > > > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was there
                            > > > before I fired it.
                            > > >
                            > > > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do
                            > yours
                            > > > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit in
                            > > > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should
                            > ask on
                            > > > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to
                            > just
                            > > > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to this
                            > issue
                            > > > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of the
                            > box
                            > > > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the
                            > length,
                            > > > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their French
                            > > > 1777.
                            > > >
                            > > > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
                            > > > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
                            > > > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the
                            > 1742
                            > > > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769 Short
                            > Land?
                            > > >
                            > > > Thanks again,
                            > > >
                            > > > Justin Prince
                            > > > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
                            > > > Indian Territory
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Art Kenney
                            I don t think that there is enough information to condemn the company. So the barrel had issues on a double load. What is a double load, exactly? I know
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
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                              I don't think that there is enough information to condemn the company. So the barrel had issues on a double load. What is a double load, exactly? I know many people who load just enough to get a flash in the pan an a flash from the muzzle. I have stood beside people on the line who have loaded enough in a single round to make me wonder if they aren't better equipped to man a swivel gun than a musket. A double load at 80 grains, yielding 160, breaking the barrel is bad, yes. A double load at 120, yielding 240, cracking or deforming a barrel or breech plug is a little different.Art KenneyCommander, Fluvanna County Militia"Qui pugant et fugiunt."


                              To: Revlist@yahoogroups.comFrom: musketman1816@...: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:11:18 +0000Subject: [Revlist] Experience with MVT Co. & Muskets




                              For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without problem and have friends who have fired 100's of live rounds of round ball & buckshot through them. I know that the Fowlers, the LLP Muskets and the India Patterns have performed excellently. Plus, the forged springs are far superior to the cheaply made "other company" cast springs. When you buy a musket- have it inspected, or do it yourself. Pull the breech and take a peek. I have taken some apart and inspected the breech for my own curiousity- and no slot nor touchhole drilled at an angle that I have seen. Could it be a bad batch? very-possible.I cannot speak for anyone's experiences except my own. I will not generalize an entire company based on one experience- and without a definitive answer as well from a legal inspection. I have seen reenactors have issues with muskets from every company from Miroku, to Pedersoli to MVT Co.Thanks-Jon Kahoe






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                            • Justin Prince
                              I ve got pictures I ll post in a while. I m not condemning the whole company. I will condemn Pete and his so called Customer service, but that issue is
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
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                                I've got pictures I'll post in a while.

                                I'm not condemning the whole company. I will condemn Pete and his so
                                called "Customer service," but that issue is neither here nor there
                                when discussing the safety of the muskets he sells.

                                My test was this. One charge of 75 grains plus one rammed paper
                                charge of 75 grains. In total, 150 grains. According to my units
                                parent organization, the US Frontier Brigade, the maximum allowable
                                charge for a .69 caliber musket is 80 grains of FFg or FFFg powder.
                                My test was not even a full double load for a .69cal musket as
                                specified by our organization. A charge that I will also add my
                                Italian Model 1842 regularly stands without a problem. FOr a second
                                test I just poured two measured 75 grain charges down, using the
                                rammer to pack it, but without a paper cartridge.

                                In my email to Pete, I was perfectly willing to accept this was a bad
                                batch. The muskets were new, as Wendy just told me they got them in
                                October. It is quite possible defects would happen. But the fact that
                                none of these defects were even remotely checked is what scares me.
                                Pete said my test proved nothing, as water seeping out of the seam is
                                inconclusive in his eyes. Well, oil can seep out of it too. I even
                                have pictures (tried to post them last night, RevList didn't take) of
                                oil bubbling out of the seam. So Pete suggested that the breech plug
                                might not be fitted right. Why is something like this not checked
                                when the muskets arrive from India?

                                The bottom line is either before, or as a result of, my double loaded
                                blank that I have proven to myself over and over an Italian musket
                                can stand this breech plug is faulty. Either the materials in the
                                musket weren't up to snuff, or because of a lack of any kind of
                                quality control in India or in New Hampshire I was sold a musket that
                                was defective, dangerous, and potentially deadly.

                                Add to that, back on double loads, Pete advised me to proof it using
                                140 grains of powder, a patch, ball, a second patch, and a second
                                ball. Even though he mocked my "testing" method of something that
                                happens every day at a reenactment, his test would have substituted
                                10 grains of powder for two balls and two patches from what mine
                                used. Again, if mine was defective BEFORE I fired a double blank
                                (twice, I would add) or as a result of it, what would have happened
                                if I used his proofing method?

                                The rest of his muskets may be safe. I will say this, for every two
                                people that tell me their MVT Besses are doing great I either get a
                                post on a forum or a private email from someone who has nothing but
                                problems, albeit not a failure, with their MVT Long Land.

                                Maybe I'm being to harsh on these India guns. Our Italian
                                Springfields and Enfields regularly stand up to double loadings
                                either through accident or through purposefully demonstration at
                                historic sites. Our .58 and .577 caliber rifle muskets regularly
                                stand 120 grain charges. Our .69 muskets regularly stand 160 grain
                                charges. If these India guns are marketed as being the same as, and
                                as strong as, the "big names" (as Pete puts in his FAQ) as well as
                                being made to live fire, shouldn't the same safety and quality be
                                expected from them?

                                Based on this experience, I'm not trusting my life to one again. Not
                                just MVT, that goes for the whole lot of them, MVT, Military
                                Heritage, and Loyalist Arms.

                                By the way, if you guys want reports of another India gun failure
                                other than mine and that Bess that blew, go to
                                http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?
                                disc=154544;article=8923;title=First%20Georgia%20State%20Line%
                                20Discussion%20Page;pagemark=25. A Loyalist Arms Lorenz developed a
                                cracked barrel after only a 100 grain proof charge. Being .62 caliber
                                smoothbore, a double load should have been 124 grains. I've also been
                                contacted by a CW pard whose Loyalist 1840 cone in barrel blew a
                                breech plug after he proofed it to their standards. So that's four
                                India muskets that failed or blew that we know of, from at least two
                                of the three manufacturers.

                                Respectfully,

                                Justin Prince

                                --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Art Kenney <wakenney@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > I don't think that there is enough information to condemn the
                                company. So the barrel had issues on a double load. What is a
                                double load, exactly? I know many people who load just enough to get
                                a flash in the pan an a flash from the muzzle. I have stood beside
                                people on the line who have loaded enough in a single round to make
                                me wonder if they aren't better equipped to man a swivel gun than a
                                musket. A double load at 80 grains, yielding 160, breaking the
                                barrel is bad, yes. A double load at 120, yielding 240, cracking or
                                deforming a barrel or breech plug is a little different.Art
                                KenneyCommander, Fluvanna County Militia"Qui pugant et fugiunt."
                                >
                                >
                                > To: Revlist@...: musketman1816@...: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:11:18
                                +0000Subject: [Revlist] Experience with MVT Co. & Muskets
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and
                                have put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them
                                without problem and have friends who have fired 100's of live rounds
                                of round ball & buckshot through them. I know that the Fowlers, the
                                LLP Muskets and the India Patterns have performed excellently. Plus,
                                the forged springs are far superior to the cheaply made "other
                                company" cast springs. When you buy a musket- have it inspected, or
                                do it yourself. Pull the breech and take a peek. I have taken some
                                apart and inspected the breech for my own curiousity- and no slot nor
                                touchhole drilled at an angle that I have seen. Could it be a bad
                                batch? very-possible.I cannot speak for anyone's experiences except
                                my own. I will not generalize an entire company based on one
                                experience- and without a definitive answer as well from a legal
                                inspection. I have seen reenactors have issues with muskets from
                                every company from Miroku, to Pedersoli to MVT Co.Thanks-Jon Kahoe
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > _________________________________________________________________
                                > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
                                > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?
                                ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008
                                >
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                                >
                              • Dave
                                ... wrote: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816barrelstamping.jp ... INDIA ... ***************************************** I am the one who
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
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                                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@...>
                                  wrote:


                                  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816barrelstamping.jp
                                  > g
                                  > Markings on the underside of the barrel. They read: A.H.U. UDR
                                  INDIA
                                  > above C/"4 digit serial number" 25/9/79. I in searching for MVT
                                  > muskets on this list I found someone with a Brown Bess barrel that
                                  > had the same stamping, just his S/N was lower. I've also heard on a
                                  > forum that a Loyalist Arms barrel had the same marking. So much for
                                  > them using different manufacturers.



                                  *****************************************




                                  I am the one who posted those barrel markings. This Bess has fired
                                  about 50 standard 100 grain 3Fg blank rounds and has last fired 25
                                  live ball rounds-.690 ball with 100 grain 2Fg charge, and no signs of
                                  any breech failure yet.

                                  Dave H
                                  3NH
                                • Jon Kahoe
                                  Information for all: Although some claim this is old news- it seems to need an update: The barrel has NOT been sent for analysis to the vendor. I contacted the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 5, 2008
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                                    Information for all:

                                    Although some claim this is old news- it seems to need an update: The
                                    barrel has NOT been sent for analysis to the vendor. I contacted the
                                    vendor to get some definitive answers about safety and got that clear
                                    answer.

                                    Once the barrel has been evaluated, beyond Justin's experiences and
                                    images, I would like to know the metallugical issues from a competant
                                    lab which specializes in such matters.

                                    Trying to get to the bottom,
                                    Jon

                                    P.S.- By the way, thanks for all the hatemail from those with little
                                    tolerance for investigative questions.
                                  • thirdnewhampshire
                                    Jon, which barrel are you referring to? The Rock Ford Bess barrel or Justin s Springfield Model 1816 barrel? Sandy Walker
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Feb 5, 2008
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                                      Jon, which barrel are you referring to? The Rock Ford 'Bess barrel or
                                      Justin's Springfield Model 1816 barrel?

                                      Sandy Walker

                                      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Kahoe" <musketman1816@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Information for all:
                                      >
                                      > Although some claim this is old news- it seems to need an update: The
                                      > barrel has NOT been sent for analysis to the vendor. I contacted the
                                      > vendor to get some definitive answers about safety and got that clear
                                      > answer.
                                      >
                                      > Once the barrel has been evaluated, beyond Justin's experiences and
                                      > images, I would like to know the metallugical issues from a competant
                                      > lab which specializes in such matters.
                                      >
                                      > Trying to get to the bottom,
                                      > Jon
                                      >
                                      > P.S.- By the way, thanks for all the hatemail from those with little
                                      > tolerance for investigative questions.
                                      >
                                    • Jon Kahoe
                                      Sandy, Thanks for that point. I was referring to the 1816 barrel- being the most recent topic for safety. But simliarly, I would like to know about the blown
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Feb 5, 2008
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                                        Sandy,
                                        Thanks for that point. I was referring to the 1816 barrel- being the
                                        most recent topic for safety.
                                        But simliarly, I would like to know about the blown barrel as well. I
                                        would assume some folks are getting them overlapped mentally, as did I
                                        for a few minutes.

                                        Thanks for the clarification,
                                        Jon
                                      • Justin Prince
                                        Hi guys. The thing is boxed up and ready to go. Actually got to the Post Office just after it closed since I had to drive over to my FFL dealer in the next
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Feb 5, 2008
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                                          Hi guys. The thing is boxed up and ready to go. Actually got to the
                                          Post Office just after it closed since I had to drive over to my FFL
                                          dealer in the next town to get a box long enough for the barrel, so
                                          I'll send it out first thing in the morning USPS Priority. Will also
                                          get Delivery Confirmation, so I can let you guys know when MVT has it.
                                          I had to track down a box and $30 to send the barrel in, Pete just gave
                                          me a curt "send it in how you like" when I asked if he would do a call
                                          tag on it. I used an entire $5 spool of bubble wrap to cover the barrel
                                          itself so it should be good and sound when Pete gets it, as well as
                                          packed the box really tight.

                                          I also wrapped the breech section especially tight, so even if the
                                          barrel gets damaged in shipping (which one of the girls at MVT told me
                                          could *easily* happen when I called to find out how exactly to mail it)
                                          the breech section can still be investigated for defects even if the
                                          barrel is damaged beyond repair.

                                          Since some can't see the low quality cell phone pics I took numerous
                                          pictures with a good 35mm camera and some with one of the Wal Mart
                                          disposables, so by the weekend at the latest I should have some high
                                          quality shots to post.

                                          Mike Brooks, over at
                                          http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?
                                          tid/217396/tp/3/, looked at the photos of the breech and floated this
                                          theory on it:

                                          "The breeching on these Indian guns is unusual to say the least and I'm
                                          not quite sure why they do it. Instead of a standard breech plug the[y]
                                          seem to machine a plug with the profile of the barrel all the way
                                          around, thus the "seam" your seeing where all the liquids are leaking
                                          out of. I'm guessing they do this as a seal instead of properly
                                          breeching the barrel on the inside. What I'd really be annoyed with is
                                          the fact that the blasted touch hole is drilled at the bottom of the
                                          pan. That ain't going to work worth a damn. It's hard to tell from the
                                          photos, but do I see a massive gap between the back of the breech plug
                                          and the stock?"

                                          Will let you guys know the ETA for MVT having the barrel when I ship it
                                          tomorrow morning.

                                          Regards,

                                          Justin


                                          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Kahoe" <musketman1816@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Sandy,
                                          > Thanks for that point. I was referring to the 1816 barrel- being the
                                          > most recent topic for safety.
                                          > But simliarly, I would like to know about the blown barrel as well.
                                          I
                                          > would assume some folks are getting them overlapped mentally, as did
                                          I
                                          > for a few minutes.
                                          >
                                          > Thanks for the clarification,
                                          > Jon
                                          >
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