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Question for those with MVTCo Muskets

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  • Justin Prince
    Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I m a Civil War Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma. As a side living history
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 31, 2008
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      Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil War
      Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma. As a
      side living history impression I would like to put together a British
      Infantry impression however, when funds allow.

      My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex Village
      Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's new
      1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd like to
      put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning the
      safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns, so any
      question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in blank and
      live fire.

      First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the group I
      intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would need to
      stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli musket, or any
      reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech plugs? The
      reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the breech just
      didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861 Springfield
      for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used the
      threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what appeared
      to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore light down
      the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going straight
      into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw where
      a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in an 'L'
      pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim of what
      I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a screw
      length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech tang the
      touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning the screw
      (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.

      I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges (mainly at
      New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a slight
      chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the barrel.
      Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was there
      before I fired it.

      For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do yours
      have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit in
      front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should ask on
      a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to just
      chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to this issue
      (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of the box
      bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the length,
      stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their French
      1777.

      Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
      considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
      project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the 1742
      Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769 Short Land?

      Thanks again,

      Justin Prince
      2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
      Indian Territory
    • Keith
      Greetings Justin, I used to do a bit of Civil War reenacting myself, as a Southern Artilleryman. To answer your question about Middlesex Village s firearms, I
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 2, 2008
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        Greetings Justin,
        I used to do a bit of Civil War reenacting myself, as a Southern
        Artilleryman. To answer your question about Middlesex Village's
        firearms, I would say that they seem to strive to put only the best
        on the market. True, the guns are made in India, and there are those
        out there who would ridicule these weapons, but the musket I
        purchased from Middlesex is of very good quality. I have fired
        blanks, roundball, buck and ball, and shot through it, and have never
        had a single misfire or reason for concern. The folk at Middlesex
        have always been quick to respond to questions, and seem to be more
        than happy to help a shooter out if there is a problem.

        My gun has withstood all the normal wear and tear of both reenacting
        and Trekking, as well as a hunting trip or two, and has only a few
        minor scratches for damage. The only thing that comes to mind that
        was any kind of difficulty with my F&I "Bess", was that it tended
        to "eat" the English gray flints. Purchasing some amber French ones
        from Horst and McCann solved that problem. I am not familiar with the
        musket that you now have, as in my 1812 Militia impression, I use
        either my F&I Bess or an India pattern. In all truth, this Middlesex
        musket has given me less problems than an 1841 Mississippi rifle I
        own that was made by an Italian manufacturer.
        Maybe you might contact the folk at Middlesex about your concerns
        with the musket that you have now.
        Good luck in your reenacting!

        Your Obdt.Svt.,
        Keith Bragg
      • Larry Maxwell
        We are looking for a quantity of good quality flints. We tried French Amber Flints and had them work about 1/2 as long as the dark ones. We tried White flints
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 2, 2008
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          We are looking for a quantity of good quality flints.
          We tried French Amber Flints and had them work about 1/2 as long as the
          dark ones.
          We tried White flints and they were terrible.
          At events there are many times there aren't flints for sale, or the ones
          for sale just are not shaped well.
          I am looking for a source for reliable, long-lasting flints.
          If they are shaped well and last long, I would buy 4 dozen.
          Thank You
          Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
        • Hugh Harrington
          I use English Flints which I get from the Log Cabin Shop in Lodi, OH. These are good people and have been shooting muzzleloaders for a couple of generations
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 2, 2008
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            I use English Flints which I get from the Log Cabin Shop in Lodi, OH.
            These are good people and have been shooting muzzleloaders for a couple
            of generations and will give you good service.
            Give them a call at 800-837-1082

            Hugh Harrington

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:Revlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Maxwell
            > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 1:35 PM
            > To: Revlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [Revlist] Which Flints are Best?
            >
            >
            > We are looking for a quantity of good quality flints.
            > We tried French Amber Flints and had them work about 1/2 as
            > long as the
            > dark ones.
            > We tried White flints and they were terrible.
            > At events there are many times there aren't flints for sale,
            > or the ones
            > for sale just are not shaped well.
            > I am looking for a source for reliable, long-lasting flints.
            > If they are shaped well and last long, I would buy 4 dozen.
            > Thank You Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
            >
            >
            >
          • Douglas Butler
            Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local gunsmith, or proof it
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 2, 2008
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              Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for
              both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
              gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
              uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side to
              make room for a vent liner.

              As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend to
              portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
              common, and for a military group it may be more important to conform
              than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on this
              side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial you
              would be more likely to have and older musket. The British Marines
              also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I have a
              TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket is
              just the thing for my militia persona.

              SherpaDoug

              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil War
              > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma. As a
              > side living history impression I would like to put together a British
              > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
              >
              > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex Village
              > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's new
              > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd like to
              > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning the
              > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns, so any
              > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in blank and
              > live fire.
              >
              > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the group I
              > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would need to
              > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli musket, or any
              > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech plugs? The
              > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the breech just
              > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861 Springfield
              > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used the
              > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what appeared
              > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore light down
              > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going straight
              > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw where
              > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in an 'L'
              > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim of what
              > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a screw
              > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech tang the
              > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning the screw
              > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
              >
              > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges (mainly at
              > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a slight
              > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the barrel.
              > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was there
              > before I fired it.
              >
              > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do yours
              > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit in
              > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should ask on
              > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to just
              > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to this issue
              > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of the box
              > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the length,
              > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their French
              > 1777.
              >
              > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
              > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
              > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the 1742
              > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769 Short Land?
              >
              > Thanks again,
              >
              > Justin Prince
              > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
              > Indian Territory
              >
            • mario doreste
              Larry, I carry most sizes of Tom Fuller flints. the_skulking_frenchman@yahoo.com Mario Doreste Sharon Springs, NY Larry Maxwell
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
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                Larry,

                I carry most sizes of Tom Fuller flints.

                the_skulking_frenchman@...

                Mario Doreste
                Sharon Springs, NY

                Larry Maxwell <Patriot1775@...> wrote:
                We are looking for a quantity of good quality flints.
                We tried French Amber Flints and had them work about 1/2 as long as the
                dark ones.
                We tried White flints and they were terrible.
                At events there are many times there aren't flints for sale, or the ones
                for sale just are not shaped well.
                I am looking for a source for reliable, long-lasting flints.
                If they are shaped well and last long, I would buy 4 dozen.
                Thank You
                Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY






                ---------------------------------
                Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Justin Prince
                Thanks for all the advice. I did send an email to Pete, asking about this slot or channel . The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks for all the advice.

                  I did send an email to Pete, asking about this "slot" or "channel".
                  The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
                  unsafe, but since they hate Indian guns I wanted to be sure. I'm not
                  an expert but I have seen original 1816 Breech Screws and they have
                  no liner or anything, as the touch hole was put in front of the screw
                  on an original. However, I got no response. I also got no response
                  when I asked how the muzzle compared to an original to see if a TRS
                  bayonet or a high quality Italian would fit. Nor did I get a response
                  to feedback I sent on the musket, namely detailing the many ways this
                  1816 was not a good replica. I phrased it politely because I figured
                  the guy is a reenactor, and reenactors strive for the utmost in
                  authenticity. I was also silent that he told me early last year he
                  went to the Springfield NHP to do research, yet the musket only very
                  generally resembled the true 1816. I kept it because other than the
                  length, some reshaping of the butt and in the future (maybe) some TRS
                  parts would correct it. That, and it was also a gift, and I'm too
                  much of a nice guy to say "you wasted your hard earned money you
                  couldn't afford on a piece of junk, send it back." That would have
                  been a slap in the face to my parents who so desperately want to
                  support my reenacting addiction.

                  Well Friday night I decided to blank proof it. I had read on
                  www.cwreenactor.com/forum that a Loyalist Arms made Lorenz cracked on
                  blank proofing. So I figure fire a double blank (something that
                  happens all the time in reenacting) and see if any obvious cracks
                  appear. Then I can go back and do Pete's double load, double ball
                  proof.

                  Well, the musket failed the blank proof. I didn't measure the barrel
                  (after all, IF it is advertised as live firing it should withstand a
                  simple double blank) but water can now seep out of the seem where the
                  breechplug screws into the barrel. NOT GOOD! So I emailed Pete, told
                  him about the problem, and asked for a refund. I figured he wouldn't
                  give me one since I reshaped the butt (albeit to something that
                  actually looked like an 1816) but I had sent emails from the day I
                  got the musket telling him how dissatisfied I was. The musket was by
                  no means an authentic (or even attempt at authentic) copy of an 1816,
                  the lock continually hangs up on half cock, it has a wierd breech
                  screw that my pards on the Civil War Forum, even one who builds
                  competition guns, told me was unsafe, and now the barrel is faulty.

                  In his reply I got little more than a scathing personal attack. He
                  said he would repair or replace the barrel, but also criticized me
                  for "making up my own test" instead of following his "documented"
                  proof test to test the musket. I'm sorry, but if it is faulty by
                  firing a double blank, something that I have accidentally done in my
                  Italian Springfield and I see historical interpreters do all the time
                  in their Italian guns because they can take it easily, how can this
                  India gun be even remotely safe to fire live? He then criticized me
                  for being a reenactor and not a gunsmith, attacked my cleaning
                  methods which work on Italian muskets but apparently fail miserable
                  at Indian muskets... or at least the flash channel part, he accused
                  me of altering the lock (because I tightened the sear and bridle
                  screw as opposed to filing off stuff like he told me I could do in an
                  email), and flaunted his knowledge of originals to me all the while
                  defending something made in no way like the originals.

                  I even tried to be polite in my email to him, stating how enjoyable
                  his company was to deal with, I loved their response time, and it was
                  only the quality of the product I didn't like. I even went so far as
                  to say I would like to give him the benefit of a doubt that it is
                  just this new kind of musket. But there was most certainly no call
                  for the content of his email back to me. He criticized my proofing
                  methods, yet no where on his website does his company even say the
                  muskets should be proofed.

                  At any rate, I'm sending the barrel in tomorrow, and when it
                  is "fixed" or "replaced" I am putting the musket up for sale. I'm not
                  going to try one of the other guns, or from one of the other
                  importers, because I had been contacted by countless other people
                  with problems from Indian muskets. So for me, I'm sticking with the
                  Italian repros. It looks like that TRS Bess is going to have to wait,
                  because I still need an 1816 for my new impression and the only guys
                  in town for me now are Pedersoli or TRS. I'm not saying all Indian
                  guns or even all MVT guns are unsafe, but in my case either the
                  quality and materials weren't up to snuff, which is bad enough, or
                  the musket wasn't even checked at MVT for a loose plug, which is far
                  worse in my opinion.

                  Thanks guys for all your help, you RevWar guys are ok in my book.
                  Maybe one of these days I'll move out to the East Coast and fall in
                  with you guys.

                  Justin


                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Butler" <sherpadoug@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for
                  > both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
                  > gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
                  > uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side to
                  > make room for a vent liner.
                  >
                  > As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend to
                  > portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
                  > common, and for a military group it may be more important to conform
                  > than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on this
                  > side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial you
                  > would be more likely to have and older musket. The British Marines
                  > also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I
                  have a
                  > TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket is
                  > just the thing for my militia persona.
                  >
                  > SherpaDoug
                  >
                  > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@>
                  wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil War
                  > > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma. As a
                  > > side living history impression I would like to put together a
                  British
                  > > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
                  > >
                  > > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex
                  Village
                  > > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's
                  new
                  > > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd like
                  to
                  > > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning the
                  > > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns, so
                  any
                  > > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in blank
                  and
                  > > live fire.
                  > >
                  > > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the group I
                  > > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would need
                  to
                  > > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli musket, or
                  any
                  > > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech plugs?
                  The
                  > > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the breech
                  just
                  > > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861
                  Springfield
                  > > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used the
                  > > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what
                  appeared
                  > > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore light
                  down
                  > > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going
                  straight
                  > > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw
                  where
                  > > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in
                  an 'L'
                  > > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim of
                  what
                  > > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a
                  screw
                  > > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech tang
                  the
                  > > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning the
                  screw
                  > > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
                  > >
                  > > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges (mainly
                  at
                  > > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a
                  slight
                  > > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the barrel.
                  > > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was there
                  > > before I fired it.
                  > >
                  > > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do
                  yours
                  > > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit in
                  > > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should
                  ask on
                  > > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to
                  just
                  > > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to this
                  issue
                  > > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of the
                  box
                  > > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the
                  length,
                  > > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their French
                  > > 1777.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
                  > > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
                  > > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the
                  1742
                  > > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769 Short
                  Land?
                  > >
                  > > Thanks again,
                  > >
                  > > Justin Prince
                  > > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
                  > > Indian Territory
                  > >
                  >
                • James B
                  Dr Larry, The 5th NY uses the Black English flints By Fuller from Track Of the Wolf . We also advise using lead sheet, not leather for the flint pad. Corporal
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
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                    Dr Larry, The 5th NY uses the Black English flints By Fuller
                    from "Track Of the Wolf". We also advise using lead sheet, not
                    leather for the flint pad. Corporal J. Burr


                    --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Larry Maxwell <Patriot1775@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > We are looking for a quantity of good quality flints.
                    > We tried French Amber Flints and had them work about 1/2 as long as
                    the
                    > dark ones.
                    > We tried White flints and they were terrible.
                    > At events there are many times there aren't flints for sale, or the
                    ones
                    > for sale just are not shaped well.
                    > I am looking for a source for reliable, long-lasting flints.
                    > If they are shaped well and last long, I would buy 4 dozen.
                    > Thank You
                    > Dr. Larry A. Maxwell, 4th NY
                    >
                  • John Ogden
                    In having attempted to purchase a Highland pistol some time back, this experience is about typical for MVTC s approach to customer service. I never got the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
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                      In having attempted to purchase a Highland pistol some time back, this
                      experience is about typical for MVTC's approach to customer service. I
                      never got the pistol, but after 8 months and, finally, threat of legal
                      action I did get the money back. Now if Justin will be so kind as to post
                      photos of this cracked seam, we have documentation for at least two Indian
                      made muskets failing within the last 7 months. Again, what is the source
                      for the prior piece?

                      On Feb 3, 2008 5:34 PM, Justin Prince <Tankerace_42@...> wrote:

                      > Thanks for all the advice.
                      >
                      > I did send an email to Pete, asking about this "slot" or "channel".
                      > The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
                      > unsafe, but since they hate Indian guns I wanted to be sure. I'm not
                      > an expert but I have seen original 1816 Breech Screws and they have
                      > no liner or anything, as the touch hole was put in front of the screw
                      > on an original. However, I got no response. I also got no response
                      > when I asked how the muzzle compared to an original to see if a TRS
                      > bayonet or a high quality Italian would fit. Nor did I get a response
                      > to feedback I sent on the musket, namely detailing the many ways this
                      > 1816 was not a good replica. I phrased it politely because I figured
                      > the guy is a reenactor, and reenactors strive for the utmost in
                      > authenticity. I was also silent that he told me early last year he
                      > went to the Springfield NHP to do research, yet the musket only very
                      > generally resembled the true 1816. I kept it because other than the
                      > length, some reshaping of the butt and in the future (maybe) some TRS
                      > parts would correct it. That, and it was also a gift, and I'm too
                      > much of a nice guy to say "you wasted your hard earned money you
                      > couldn't afford on a piece of junk, send it back." That would have
                      > been a slap in the face to my parents who so desperately want to
                      > support my reenacting addiction.
                      >
                      > Well Friday night I decided to blank proof it. I had read on
                      > www.cwreenactor.com/forum that a Loyalist Arms made Lorenz cracked on
                      > blank proofing. So I figure fire a double blank (something that
                      > happens all the time in reenacting) and see if any obvious cracks
                      > appear. Then I can go back and do Pete's double load, double ball
                      > proof.
                      >
                      > Well, the musket failed the blank proof. I didn't measure the barrel
                      > (after all, IF it is advertised as live firing it should withstand a
                      > simple double blank) but water can now seep out of the seem where the
                      > breechplug screws into the barrel. NOT GOOD! So I emailed Pete, told
                      > him about the problem, and asked for a refund. I figured he wouldn't
                      > give me one since I reshaped the butt (albeit to something that
                      > actually looked like an 1816) but I had sent emails from the day I
                      > got the musket telling him how dissatisfied I was. The musket was by
                      > no means an authentic (or even attempt at authentic) copy of an 1816,
                      > the lock continually hangs up on half cock, it has a wierd breech
                      > screw that my pards on the Civil War Forum, even one who builds
                      > competition guns, told me was unsafe, and now the barrel is faulty.
                      >
                      > In his reply I got little more than a scathing personal attack. He
                      > said he would repair or replace the barrel, but also criticized me
                      > for "making up my own test" instead of following his "documented"
                      > proof test to test the musket. I'm sorry, but if it is faulty by
                      > firing a double blank, something that I have accidentally done in my
                      > Italian Springfield and I see historical interpreters do all the time
                      > in their Italian guns because they can take it easily, how can this
                      > India gun be even remotely safe to fire live? He then criticized me
                      > for being a reenactor and not a gunsmith, attacked my cleaning
                      > methods which work on Italian muskets but apparently fail miserable
                      > at Indian muskets... or at least the flash channel part, he accused
                      > me of altering the lock (because I tightened the sear and bridle
                      > screw as opposed to filing off stuff like he told me I could do in an
                      > email), and flaunted his knowledge of originals to me all the while
                      > defending something made in no way like the originals.
                      >
                      > I even tried to be polite in my email to him, stating how enjoyable
                      > his company was to deal with, I loved their response time, and it was
                      > only the quality of the product I didn't like. I even went so far as
                      > to say I would like to give him the benefit of a doubt that it is
                      > just this new kind of musket. But there was most certainly no call
                      > for the content of his email back to me. He criticized my proofing
                      > methods, yet no where on his website does his company even say the
                      > muskets should be proofed.
                      >
                      > At any rate, I'm sending the barrel in tomorrow, and when it
                      > is "fixed" or "replaced" I am putting the musket up for sale. I'm not
                      > going to try one of the other guns, or from one of the other
                      > importers, because I had been contacted by countless other people
                      > with problems from Indian muskets. So for me, I'm sticking with the
                      > Italian repros. It looks like that TRS Bess is going to have to wait,
                      > because I still need an 1816 for my new impression and the only guys
                      > in town for me now are Pedersoli or TRS. I'm not saying all Indian
                      > guns or even all MVT guns are unsafe, but in my case either the
                      > quality and materials weren't up to snuff, which is bad enough, or
                      > the musket wasn't even checked at MVT for a loose plug, which is far
                      > worse in my opinion.
                      >
                      > Thanks guys for all your help, you RevWar guys are ok in my book.
                      > Maybe one of these days I'll move out to the East Coast and fall in
                      > with you guys.
                      >
                      > Justin
                      >
                      > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Douglas
                      > Butler" <sherpadoug@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for
                      > > both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
                      > > gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
                      > > uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side to
                      > > make room for a vent liner.
                      > >
                      > > As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend to
                      > > portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
                      > > common, and for a military group it may be more important to conform
                      > > than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on this
                      > > side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial you
                      > > would be more likely to have and older musket. The British Marines
                      > > also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I
                      > have a
                      > > TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket is
                      > > just the thing for my militia persona.
                      > >
                      > > SherpaDoug
                      > >
                      > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Justin
                      > Prince" <Tankerace_42@>
                      > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil War
                      > > > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma. As a
                      > > > side living history impression I would like to put together a
                      > British
                      > > > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
                      > > >
                      > > > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex
                      > Village
                      > > > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's
                      > new
                      > > > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd like
                      > to
                      > > > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning the
                      > > > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns, so
                      > any
                      > > > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in blank
                      > and
                      > > > live fire.
                      > > >
                      > > > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the group I
                      > > > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would need
                      > to
                      > > > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli musket, or
                      > any
                      > > > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech plugs?
                      > The
                      > > > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the breech
                      > just
                      > > > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861
                      > Springfield
                      > > > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used the
                      > > > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what
                      > appeared
                      > > > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore light
                      > down
                      > > > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going
                      > straight
                      > > > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw
                      > where
                      > > > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in
                      > an 'L'
                      > > > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim of
                      > what
                      > > > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a
                      > screw
                      > > > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech tang
                      > the
                      > > > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning the
                      > screw
                      > > > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
                      > > >
                      > > > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges (mainly
                      > at
                      > > > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a
                      > slight
                      > > > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the barrel.
                      > > > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was there
                      > > > before I fired it.
                      > > >
                      > > > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do
                      > yours
                      > > > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit in
                      > > > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should
                      > ask on
                      > > > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to
                      > just
                      > > > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to this
                      > issue
                      > > > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of the
                      > box
                      > > > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the
                      > length,
                      > > > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their French
                      > > > 1777.
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
                      > > > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
                      > > > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the
                      > 1742
                      > > > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769 Short
                      > Land?
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks again,
                      > > >
                      > > > Justin Prince
                      > > > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
                      > > > Indian Territory
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      --
                      John J. Ogden
                      Hanley School of Law
                      Duquesne University
                      Class of 2011

                      "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity
                      in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any
                      particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James
                      Madison, June 20, 1785


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Justin Prince
                      John sir, if it is photos you want, it is photos you shall have. They are only camera phone captures, but I ll take some with a good camera shots before I box
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 3, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        John sir, if it is photos you want, it is photos you shall have. They
                        are only camera phone captures, but I'll take some with a good camera
                        shots before I box up the barrel tomorrow. Pete can try to cover this
                        up, but the world needs to know about these "pipebombs" as we call
                        them in the CW hobby.

                        And you guys were in luck. I pulled the stock out of the barrel to
                        get pictures, and at one of the seems oil had bubbled out of the
                        musket. It is low quality, but plainly visible. To try and snowball
                        me Pete tried to tell me that water seeping out of the breech wasn't
                        conclusive, it could have come out of the touchhole. I say this to
                        Mr. Pete Plunkett: Here sir, is your proof. And the world shall know
                        it.

                        Also guys, I want to post a snippet of the email he sent. Compare it
                        and his discrediting of my Proofing methods with the pictures I will
                        post in this email.

                        From Pete Plunkett, President of MVTCo: "Why do you have water
                        leaking out of your breech? I don't know, and can't make a reasonable
                        guess based on your "testing" methods. Were there any black streaks
                        there when you fired it with blanks or your "proof" firing?
                        Electrical tape is not water tight and proves nothing. I suppose it
                        is possible that the plug isn't fitted right, but if so that can be
                        fixed."

                        So, he can't tell me why the plug may be faulty based on blanks only.
                        He tries to discredit my testing methods (a double loaded blank. I've
                        done it my hobby, how many of you have done it in yours? This musket
                        couldn't stand it, but apparently that's no test). Then he admits
                        that the plug may not be fitted right. So wait, let's think about
                        that for a second. He defends the musket tooth and nail telling me,
                        there is nothing wrong with it. But it may not have been fitted
                        right, but he sold it anyway. So either 1) He never checked the
                        musket when it arrived in the states and negligently sold me a
                        defective firearm because he provided NO measure of quality control
                        on either side of the Atlantic, or 2) he checked it and either didn't
                        know how to fit a breech plug or didn't care, and criminally sold me
                        a defective firearm anyway all the while claiming he is the gun
                        expert and I'm not, and that it was perfectly safe to live fire. At
                        this point I don't care wether the musket is made of steel or
                        aluminum. This man is selling a defective product that he isn't
                        bothering to check before he sends it to you. Then he doesn't say you
                        HAVE to proof it. Or you SHOULD proof it. He says you can buy it, ram
                        a ball and charge down and shoot it when you yank it out of the box.
                        With my seam split either before or after a blank, what would have
                        happened to me?

                        Here are the after photos, just taken about 10 minutes ago.

                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816BlownBreechTH.jpg
                        This is the right seam, notice how big it is. Also note how close the
                        touchhole is to the breech plug tang. No wonder it could've backed
                        out under just a blank.

                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816BlownBreech3.jpg
                        This is a low quality shot, but notice how big the seam is. I know on
                        my Civil War muskets (which as Pete reminded me are NOT flintlocks,
                        but I disagree with his assertion that is irrelevant) I can barely
                        see the seam.

                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816BlownBreech2.jpg
                        Here is the right seam. Notice the oil that leaked out of the seam.
                        This was the seam where I saw the water coming out.

                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816BlownBreech1.jpg
                        Here is the right seam above the touchhole. When I was rolling the
                        barrel around to get good shots, more oil bubbled out. This one is
                        clear and distinctive.

                        Now the before pictures. I had fired maybe 8 or 10 blanks by the time
                        I took these, but low 60 or 80 grain charges. Includes photos around
                        the barrel or breech.

                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816pluglength.jpg
                        Measurement of the touch hole to plug. Pete rambled on about how its
                        based on originals, but a quick look at
                        http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/091228000/91228507/pix1739251390.jpg
                        and
                        http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/091228000/91228507/pix1739251281.jpg
                        show just how far forward the barrel/breech or how far back the lock
                        is.

                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816breechsection.jpg
                        Here is the rear of the breech. By this time I had fired about 8 or
                        10 low charge blanks, but not the double loaded blank. Notice the
                        three dimples.

                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816breech.jpg
                        Seam on the bottom of the breech and barrel. Also note the chip. That
                        was there from the first day I got it. Naively I had assumed Pete had
                        checked these things before he sold it to me. Guess I was wrong.
                        Also, after my double blank proofing I found fouling there.

                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816barrelstamping.jp
                        g
                        Markings on the underside of the barrel. They read: A.H.U. UDR INDIA
                        above C/"4 digit serial number" 25/9/79. I in searching for MVT
                        muskets on this list I found someone with a Brown Bess barrel that
                        had the same stamping, just his S/N was lower. I've also heard on a
                        forum that a Loyalist Arms barrel had the same marking. So much for
                        them using different manufacturers.

                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816touchhole.jpg
                        Wider shot of the right seem, before double blank.

                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816rammeroutofslot.j
                        pg
                        How far the rammer protrudes when it is on the actual face of the
                        breech screw.

                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816rammerinslot.jpg
                        How far it protrudes when the threaded end of the ramrod can easily
                        get stuck in the flash channel.

                        Well lads, there is your documentation. I don't care what Pete says,
                        if I had double ball proofed this thing with either an inferiorly
                        constructed breech plug or one that he, his MVT gunsmiths, or the
                        guys earning $1 a day in India couldn't figure out how to fit the
                        barrel would have burst of the breech plug shot out. Or it would have
                        been so weakened that after prolonged firing it would have happened.
                        At first I thought that Bess that blew in November was user error. In
                        an email Pete all but told me it was. Now I am convinced that one of
                        these wallhanging pipebombs blew.

                        I really don't care about the fact my particular musket borders on
                        false advertisement claiming it is a replica of the U.S. Model 1816.
                        What I'm concerned about is someone is going to get killed on one of
                        these Indian guns. My CW unit is a campaigner unit and forbids Indian
                        guns. I don't think I, or most in my hobby have to worry. What I'm
                        scared of is all you guys standing in double ranks blasting away with
                        Pete's Besses, and the potential of when, not if, a musket will
                        explode again. One failed in December, it fired less than 50 blanks.
                        Mine failed in February, it fired maybe a dozen. That's not a good
                        safety record at all.

                        Yours,

                        Justin Prince


                        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "John Ogden" <johnjogden@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > In having attempted to purchase a Highland pistol some time back,
                        this
                        > experience is about typical for MVTC's approach to customer
                        service. I
                        > never got the pistol, but after 8 months and, finally, threat of
                        legal
                        > action I did get the money back. Now if Justin will be so kind as
                        to post
                        > photos of this cracked seam, we have documentation for at least two
                        Indian
                        > made muskets failing within the last 7 months. Again, what is the
                        source
                        > for the prior piece?
                        >
                        > On Feb 3, 2008 5:34 PM, Justin Prince <Tankerace_42@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Thanks for all the advice.
                        > >
                        > > I did send an email to Pete, asking about this "slot"
                        or "channel".
                        > > The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
                        > > unsafe, but since they hate Indian guns I wanted to be sure. I'm
                        not
                        > > an expert but I have seen original 1816 Breech Screws and they
                        have
                        > > no liner or anything, as the touch hole was put in front of the
                        screw
                        > > on an original. However, I got no response. I also got no response
                        > > when I asked how the muzzle compared to an original to see if a
                        TRS
                        > > bayonet or a high quality Italian would fit. Nor did I get a
                        response
                        > > to feedback I sent on the musket, namely detailing the many ways
                        this
                        > > 1816 was not a good replica. I phrased it politely because I
                        figured
                        > > the guy is a reenactor, and reenactors strive for the utmost in
                        > > authenticity. I was also silent that he told me early last year he
                        > > went to the Springfield NHP to do research, yet the musket only
                        very
                        > > generally resembled the true 1816. I kept it because other than
                        the
                        > > length, some reshaping of the butt and in the future (maybe) some
                        TRS
                        > > parts would correct it. That, and it was also a gift, and I'm too
                        > > much of a nice guy to say "you wasted your hard earned money you
                        > > couldn't afford on a piece of junk, send it back." That would have
                        > > been a slap in the face to my parents who so desperately want to
                        > > support my reenacting addiction.
                        > >
                        > > Well Friday night I decided to blank proof it. I had read on
                        > > www.cwreenactor.com/forum that a Loyalist Arms made Lorenz
                        cracked on
                        > > blank proofing. So I figure fire a double blank (something that
                        > > happens all the time in reenacting) and see if any obvious cracks
                        > > appear. Then I can go back and do Pete's double load, double ball
                        > > proof.
                        > >
                        > > Well, the musket failed the blank proof. I didn't measure the
                        barrel
                        > > (after all, IF it is advertised as live firing it should
                        withstand a
                        > > simple double blank) but water can now seep out of the seem where
                        the
                        > > breechplug screws into the barrel. NOT GOOD! So I emailed Pete,
                        told
                        > > him about the problem, and asked for a refund. I figured he
                        wouldn't
                        > > give me one since I reshaped the butt (albeit to something that
                        > > actually looked like an 1816) but I had sent emails from the day I
                        > > got the musket telling him how dissatisfied I was. The musket was
                        by
                        > > no means an authentic (or even attempt at authentic) copy of an
                        1816,
                        > > the lock continually hangs up on half cock, it has a wierd breech
                        > > screw that my pards on the Civil War Forum, even one who builds
                        > > competition guns, told me was unsafe, and now the barrel is
                        faulty.
                        > >
                        > > In his reply I got little more than a scathing personal attack. He
                        > > said he would repair or replace the barrel, but also criticized me
                        > > for "making up my own test" instead of following his "documented"
                        > > proof test to test the musket. I'm sorry, but if it is faulty by
                        > > firing a double blank, something that I have accidentally done in
                        my
                        > > Italian Springfield and I see historical interpreters do all the
                        time
                        > > in their Italian guns because they can take it easily, how can
                        this
                        > > India gun be even remotely safe to fire live? He then criticized
                        me
                        > > for being a reenactor and not a gunsmith, attacked my cleaning
                        > > methods which work on Italian muskets but apparently fail
                        miserable
                        > > at Indian muskets... or at least the flash channel part, he
                        accused
                        > > me of altering the lock (because I tightened the sear and bridle
                        > > screw as opposed to filing off stuff like he told me I could do
                        in an
                        > > email), and flaunted his knowledge of originals to me all the
                        while
                        > > defending something made in no way like the originals.
                        > >
                        > > I even tried to be polite in my email to him, stating how
                        enjoyable
                        > > his company was to deal with, I loved their response time, and it
                        was
                        > > only the quality of the product I didn't like. I even went so far
                        as
                        > > to say I would like to give him the benefit of a doubt that it is
                        > > just this new kind of musket. But there was most certainly no call
                        > > for the content of his email back to me. He criticized my proofing
                        > > methods, yet no where on his website does his company even say the
                        > > muskets should be proofed.
                        > >
                        > > At any rate, I'm sending the barrel in tomorrow, and when it
                        > > is "fixed" or "replaced" I am putting the musket up for sale. I'm
                        not
                        > > going to try one of the other guns, or from one of the other
                        > > importers, because I had been contacted by countless other people
                        > > with problems from Indian muskets. So for me, I'm sticking with
                        the
                        > > Italian repros. It looks like that TRS Bess is going to have to
                        wait,
                        > > because I still need an 1816 for my new impression and the only
                        guys
                        > > in town for me now are Pedersoli or TRS. I'm not saying all Indian
                        > > guns or even all MVT guns are unsafe, but in my case either the
                        > > quality and materials weren't up to snuff, which is bad enough, or
                        > > the musket wasn't even checked at MVT for a loose plug, which is
                        far
                        > > worse in my opinion.
                        > >
                        > > Thanks guys for all your help, you RevWar guys are ok in my book.
                        > > Maybe one of these days I'll move out to the East Coast and fall
                        in
                        > > with you guys.
                        > >
                        > > Justin
                        > >
                        > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%
                        40yahoogroups.com>, "Douglas
                        > > Butler" <sherpadoug@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets
                        for
                        > > > both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
                        > > > gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
                        > > > uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side
                        to
                        > > > make room for a vent liner.
                        > > >
                        > > > As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend
                        to
                        > > > portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
                        > > > common, and for a military group it may be more important to
                        conform
                        > > > than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on
                        this
                        > > > side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial
                        you
                        > > > would be more likely to have and older musket. The British
                        Marines
                        > > > also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I
                        > > have a
                        > > > TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket
                        is
                        > > > just the thing for my militia persona.
                        > > >
                        > > > SherpaDoug
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com <Revlist%
                        40yahoogroups.com>, "Justin
                        > > Prince" <Tankerace_42@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil
                        War
                        > > > > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma.
                        As a
                        > > > > side living history impression I would like to put together a
                        > > British
                        > > > > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex
                        > > Village
                        > > > > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's
                        > > new
                        > > > > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd
                        like
                        > > to
                        > > > > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning
                        the
                        > > > > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns,
                        so
                        > > any
                        > > > > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in
                        blank
                        > > and
                        > > > > live fire.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the
                        group I
                        > > > > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would
                        need
                        > > to
                        > > > > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli
                        musket, or
                        > > any
                        > > > > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech
                        plugs?
                        > > The
                        > > > > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the
                        breech
                        > > just
                        > > > > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861
                        > > Springfield
                        > > > > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used
                        the
                        > > > > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what
                        > > appeared
                        > > > > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore
                        light
                        > > down
                        > > > > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going
                        > > straight
                        > > > > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw
                        > > where
                        > > > > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in
                        > > an 'L'
                        > > > > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim
                        of
                        > > what
                        > > > > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a
                        > > screw
                        > > > > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech
                        tang
                        > > the
                        > > > > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning
                        the
                        > > screw
                        > > > > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges
                        (mainly
                        > > at
                        > > > > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a
                        > > slight
                        > > > > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the
                        barrel.
                        > > > > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was
                        there
                        > > > > before I fired it.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do
                        > > yours
                        > > > > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit
                        in
                        > > > > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should
                        > > ask on
                        > > > > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to
                        > > just
                        > > > > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to
                        this
                        > > issue
                        > > > > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of
                        the
                        > > box
                        > > > > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the
                        > > length,
                        > > > > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their
                        French
                        > > > > 1777.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
                        > > > > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
                        > > > > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the
                        > > 1742
                        > > > > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769
                        Short
                        > > Land?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thanks again,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Justin Prince
                        > > > > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
                        > > > > Indian Territory
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > John J. Ogden
                        > Hanley School of Law
                        > Duquesne University
                        > Class of 2011
                        >
                        > "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish
                        Christianity
                        > in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same
                        ease, any
                        > particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects?" --
                        James
                        > Madison, June 20, 1785
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Jon Kahoe
                        For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without problem and have
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
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                          For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have
                          put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without
                          problem and have friends who have fired 100's of live rounds of round
                          ball & buckshot through them. I know that the Fowlers, the LLP Muskets
                          and the India Patterns have performed excellently.
                          Plus, the forged springs are far superior to the cheaply made "other
                          company" cast springs. When you buy a musket- have it inspected, or do
                          it yourself. Pull the breech and take a peek. I have taken some apart
                          and inspected the breech for my own curiousity- and no slot nor
                          touchhole drilled at an angle that I have seen. Could it be a bad
                          batch? very-possible.

                          I cannot speak for anyone's experiences except my own. I will not
                          generalize an entire company based on one experience- and without a
                          definitive answer as well from a legal inspection. I have seen
                          reenactors have issues with muskets from every company from Miroku, to
                          Pedersoli to MVT Co.

                          Thanks-
                          Jon Kahoe
                        • Jon Kahoe
                          For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without problem and have
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
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                            For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have
                            put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without
                            problem and have friends who have fired 100's of live rounds of round
                            ball & buckshot through them. I know that the Fowlers, the LLP Muskets
                            and the India Patterns have performed excellently.
                            Plus, the forged springs are far superior to the cheaply made "other
                            company" cast springs. When you buy a musket- have it inspected, or do
                            it yourself. Pull the breech and take a peek. I have taken some apart
                            and inspected the breech for my own curiousity- and no slot nor
                            touchhole drilled at an angle that I have seen. Could it be a bad
                            batch? very-possible.

                            I cannot speak for anyone's experiences except my own. I will not
                            generalize an entire company based on one experience- and without a
                            definitive answer as well from a legal inspection. I have seen
                            reenactors have issues with muskets from every company from Miroku, to
                            Pedersoli to MVT Co.

                            Thanks-
                            Jon Kahoe
                          • thirdnewhampshire
                            With regards to the slot in the breech plug mentioned by Justin on the India made 1816 musket, Jean Boudriot in his book Armes A Feu Francaises Modeles
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
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                              With regards to the "slot" in the breech plug mentioned by Justin on
                              the India made 1816 musket, Jean Boudriot in his book "Armes A Feu
                              Francaises Modeles Reglementaires 1717 - 1836" describes major points
                              of interest on page 72 for the Model 1763 (heavy) musket. The M1763
                              (heavy) is the forerunner of the "Charleville" (the French called it
                              the M1763 (light) and/or M1766) made in Japan, Italy, and India many
                              of us carry.

                              The point of interest here is: "The threaded portion of the breech
                              plug is notched on the side of the vent, the tang of the breech plug
                              is 0,063 m (2 inches 4 lines) long, its end is rounded and it is bored
                              for the trigger guard screw." (NOTE, in his book these measurements
                              are "French" inches, 2 pouces 4 lignes; however, he does include the
                              metric measurement with the "inch" in parenthesis).

                              In his description of the Model 1777 (the inspiration for our Model
                              1816) he does not mention anything about the breech plug but does say
                              the "1st production" barrels are similar to the M1763 and the 2nd
                              production, around 1783 the shape of the barrel itself changes to
                              having five flats similar to the AN IX.

                              Quite a bit later in "The Ordnance Manual For The Use Of The Officers
                              of the United States Army", 1850 Second Edition, the following
                              statement is found on page 171 under "Inspection of Barrels": "The
                              vent should enter the bore of the barrel clear of the end of the
                              breech screw".

                              From this it appears that in the mid-18th century the French DID
                              intend the vent to enter the barrel slightly BEHIND the face of the
                              breech plug necessitating a "slot" but by at least the middle of the
                              1800's the US Army intended the vent to enter the barrel AHEAD of the
                              breech plug.

                              This may help explain 1: the concern the Civil War re-enactors had for
                              the "slot" in the breech plug of the India-made Model 1816 and 2: the
                              presence of the "slot" in the India reproduction. I do not have any
                              information whether the British "notched" their breech plugs or not.

                              Sandy Walker

                              --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Thanks for all the advice.
                              >
                              > I did send an email to Pete, asking about this "slot" or "channel".
                              > The guys on the Civil War reenactors sites told me that it was
                              > unsafe, but since they hate Indian guns I wanted to be sure. I'm not
                              > an expert but I have seen original 1816 Breech Screws and they have
                              > no liner or anything, as the touch hole was put in front of the screw
                              > on an original. However, I got no response. I also got no response
                              > when I asked how the muzzle compared to an original to see if a TRS
                              > bayonet or a high quality Italian would fit. Nor did I get a response
                              > to feedback I sent on the musket, namely detailing the many ways this
                              > 1816 was not a good replica. I phrased it politely because I figured
                              > the guy is a reenactor, and reenactors strive for the utmost in
                              > authenticity. I was also silent that he told me early last year he
                              > went to the Springfield NHP to do research, yet the musket only very
                              > generally resembled the true 1816. I kept it because other than the
                              > length, some reshaping of the butt and in the future (maybe) some TRS
                              > parts would correct it. That, and it was also a gift, and I'm too
                              > much of a nice guy to say "you wasted your hard earned money you
                              > couldn't afford on a piece of junk, send it back." That would have
                              > been a slap in the face to my parents who so desperately want to
                              > support my reenacting addiction.
                              >
                              > Well Friday night I decided to blank proof it. I had read on
                              > www.cwreenactor.com/forum that a Loyalist Arms made Lorenz cracked on
                              > blank proofing. So I figure fire a double blank (something that
                              > happens all the time in reenacting) and see if any obvious cracks
                              > appear. Then I can go back and do Pete's double load, double ball
                              > proof.
                              >
                              > Well, the musket failed the blank proof. I didn't measure the barrel
                              > (after all, IF it is advertised as live firing it should withstand a
                              > simple double blank) but water can now seep out of the seem where the
                              > breechplug screws into the barrel. NOT GOOD! So I emailed Pete, told
                              > him about the problem, and asked for a refund. I figured he wouldn't
                              > give me one since I reshaped the butt (albeit to something that
                              > actually looked like an 1816) but I had sent emails from the day I
                              > got the musket telling him how dissatisfied I was. The musket was by
                              > no means an authentic (or even attempt at authentic) copy of an 1816,
                              > the lock continually hangs up on half cock, it has a wierd breech
                              > screw that my pards on the Civil War Forum, even one who builds
                              > competition guns, told me was unsafe, and now the barrel is faulty.
                              >
                              > In his reply I got little more than a scathing personal attack. He
                              > said he would repair or replace the barrel, but also criticized me
                              > for "making up my own test" instead of following his "documented"
                              > proof test to test the musket. I'm sorry, but if it is faulty by
                              > firing a double blank, something that I have accidentally done in my
                              > Italian Springfield and I see historical interpreters do all the time
                              > in their Italian guns because they can take it easily, how can this
                              > India gun be even remotely safe to fire live? He then criticized me
                              > for being a reenactor and not a gunsmith, attacked my cleaning
                              > methods which work on Italian muskets but apparently fail miserable
                              > at Indian muskets... or at least the flash channel part, he accused
                              > me of altering the lock (because I tightened the sear and bridle
                              > screw as opposed to filing off stuff like he told me I could do in an
                              > email), and flaunted his knowledge of originals to me all the while
                              > defending something made in no way like the originals.
                              >
                              > I even tried to be polite in my email to him, stating how enjoyable
                              > his company was to deal with, I loved their response time, and it was
                              > only the quality of the product I didn't like. I even went so far as
                              > to say I would like to give him the benefit of a doubt that it is
                              > just this new kind of musket. But there was most certainly no call
                              > for the content of his email back to me. He criticized my proofing
                              > methods, yet no where on his website does his company even say the
                              > muskets should be proofed.
                              >
                              > At any rate, I'm sending the barrel in tomorrow, and when it
                              > is "fixed" or "replaced" I am putting the musket up for sale. I'm not
                              > going to try one of the other guns, or from one of the other
                              > importers, because I had been contacted by countless other people
                              > with problems from Indian muskets. So for me, I'm sticking with the
                              > Italian repros. It looks like that TRS Bess is going to have to wait,
                              > because I still need an 1816 for my new impression and the only guys
                              > in town for me now are Pedersoli or TRS. I'm not saying all Indian
                              > guns or even all MVT guns are unsafe, but in my case either the
                              > quality and materials weren't up to snuff, which is bad enough, or
                              > the musket wasn't even checked at MVT for a loose plug, which is far
                              > worse in my opinion.
                              >
                              > Thanks guys for all your help, you RevWar guys are ok in my book.
                              > Maybe one of these days I'll move out to the East Coast and fall in
                              > with you guys.
                              >
                              > Justin
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Butler" <sherpadoug@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Many people I know are very satisfied with their MVTCo muskets for
                              > > both blanks and live fire. If you have doubts seek out a local
                              > > gunsmith, or proof it yourself under safe conditions. It is not
                              > > uncommon for one to grind a bit off the breech plug on one side to
                              > > make room for a vent liner.
                              > >
                              > > As for an authentic RevWar musket, it depends on who you intend to
                              > > portray and what group you are in. The short lands are the most
                              > > common, and for a military group it may be more important to conform
                              > > than be authentic. In truth there weren't many short lands on this
                              > > side of the Atlantic. Especially if you are militia or Colonial you
                              > > would be more likely to have and older musket. The British Marines
                              > > also had older hand-me-down equipment from the regular army. I
                              > have a
                              > > TRS long land with wooden rammer. I figure a 30 year old musket is
                              > > just the thing for my militia persona.
                              > >
                              > > SherpaDoug
                              > >
                              > > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@>
                              > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hi all. My name is Justin Prince. Unfortunately I'm a Civil War
                              > > > Reenactor and not a RevWar reenactor, as I live in Oklahoma. As a
                              > > > side living history impression I would like to put together a
                              > British
                              > > > Infantry impression however, when funds allow.
                              > > >
                              > > > My question today is related to the muskets made by Middlesex
                              > Village
                              > > > Trading Company. For Christmas my parents gave me one of MVT's
                              > new
                              > > > 1816 Springfields, for use in a Mexican War impression I'd like
                              > to
                              > > > put together. However, I've a number of questions concerning the
                              > > > safety to use it (in CW reenacting we rarely use Indian guns, so
                              > any
                              > > > question I ask there is met with "hang it on the wall!") in blank
                              > and
                              > > > live fire.
                              > > >
                              > > > First, how safe are the MVT guns for live firing? As the group I
                              > > > intend to join does a lot of live firing, this musket would need
                              > to
                              > > > stand up to the punishment expected out of a Pedersoli musket, or
                              > any
                              > > > reputable musket for that matter. Also, how are the breech plugs?
                              > The
                              > > > reason I ask is mine seems a tad short. I could tell the breech
                              > just
                              > > > didn't feel right (I use a Model 1842 and a Model 1861
                              > Springfield
                              > > > for CW reenacting) when I would spring the rammer, so I used the
                              > > > threaded end of the ramrod to ping the breech and found what
                              > appeared
                              > > > to be a slot milled into the breech screw. Putting a bore light
                              > down
                              > > > the bore, I discovered that instead of the touch hole going
                              > straight
                              > > > into the barrel proper, it actually goes into the breech screw
                              > where
                              > > > a flash channel has been milled (or drilled) into the screw in
                              > an 'L'
                              > > > pattern to where the rest of the screw sits, creating the rim of
                              > what
                              > > > I assume is the actual breech. An original 1816 musket had a
                              > screw
                              > > > length of 1/2 inch, but on my Middlesex Gun from the breech tang
                              > the
                              > > > touch hole is only 4/10 of an inch into the barrel, meaning the
                              > screw
                              > > > (un-drilled) is only 3/10 of an inch long.
                              > > >
                              > > > I have fired maybe a dozen 60 and 80 grain blank charges (mainly
                              > at
                              > > > New Years), and the only potential defect I have noticed is a
                              > slight
                              > > > chip at the bottom of the breech screw where it meets the barrel.
                              > > > Unfortunately I cannot say for sure whether or not it was there
                              > > > before I fired it.
                              > > >
                              > > > For those of you that own and shoot these, preferably live, do
                              > yours
                              > > > have a similar style of touch hole or does yours actually sit in
                              > > > front of the breech screw where it belongs? I figured I should
                              > ask on
                              > > > a RevWar site as guys on the Civil War sites are telling me to
                              > just
                              > > > chuck the musket, both for being potentially unsafe due to this
                              > issue
                              > > > (and being unproofed) as well as the fact the musket out of the
                              > box
                              > > > bares only a passing resemblence to the 1816, retaining the
                              > length,
                              > > > stock (sans cheek rest), and most of the hardware of their French
                              > > > 1777.
                              > > >
                              > > > Thanks for any and all advice! Also one other note, since I am
                              > > > considering saving up to build a Rifle Shoppe Bess as a summer
                              > > > project, which would be more correct for a RevWar period, the
                              > 1742
                              > > > Long Land with steel rammer and/or sheet nosecap or a 1769 Short
                              > Land?
                              > > >
                              > > > Thanks again,
                              > > >
                              > > > Justin Prince
                              > > > 2nd Colorado Volunteer Infantry,
                              > > > Indian Territory
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Art Kenney
                              I don t think that there is enough information to condemn the company. So the barrel had issues on a double load. What is a double load, exactly? I know
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
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                                I don't think that there is enough information to condemn the company. So the barrel had issues on a double load. What is a double load, exactly? I know many people who load just enough to get a flash in the pan an a flash from the muzzle. I have stood beside people on the line who have loaded enough in a single round to make me wonder if they aren't better equipped to man a swivel gun than a musket. A double load at 80 grains, yielding 160, breaking the barrel is bad, yes. A double load at 120, yielding 240, cracking or deforming a barrel or breech plug is a little different.Art KenneyCommander, Fluvanna County Militia"Qui pugant et fugiunt."


                                To: Revlist@yahoogroups.comFrom: musketman1816@...: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:11:18 +0000Subject: [Revlist] Experience with MVT Co. & Muskets




                                For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and have put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them without problem and have friends who have fired 100's of live rounds of round ball & buckshot through them. I know that the Fowlers, the LLP Muskets and the India Patterns have performed excellently. Plus, the forged springs are far superior to the cheaply made "other company" cast springs. When you buy a musket- have it inspected, or do it yourself. Pull the breech and take a peek. I have taken some apart and inspected the breech for my own curiousity- and no slot nor touchhole drilled at an angle that I have seen. Could it be a bad batch? very-possible.I cannot speak for anyone's experiences except my own. I will not generalize an entire company based on one experience- and without a definitive answer as well from a legal inspection. I have seen reenactors have issues with muskets from every company from Miroku, to Pedersoli to MVT Co.Thanks-Jon Kahoe






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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Justin Prince
                                I ve got pictures I ll post in a while. I m not condemning the whole company. I will condemn Pete and his so called Customer service, but that issue is
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
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                                  I've got pictures I'll post in a while.

                                  I'm not condemning the whole company. I will condemn Pete and his so
                                  called "Customer service," but that issue is neither here nor there
                                  when discussing the safety of the muskets he sells.

                                  My test was this. One charge of 75 grains plus one rammed paper
                                  charge of 75 grains. In total, 150 grains. According to my units
                                  parent organization, the US Frontier Brigade, the maximum allowable
                                  charge for a .69 caliber musket is 80 grains of FFg or FFFg powder.
                                  My test was not even a full double load for a .69cal musket as
                                  specified by our organization. A charge that I will also add my
                                  Italian Model 1842 regularly stands without a problem. FOr a second
                                  test I just poured two measured 75 grain charges down, using the
                                  rammer to pack it, but without a paper cartridge.

                                  In my email to Pete, I was perfectly willing to accept this was a bad
                                  batch. The muskets were new, as Wendy just told me they got them in
                                  October. It is quite possible defects would happen. But the fact that
                                  none of these defects were even remotely checked is what scares me.
                                  Pete said my test proved nothing, as water seeping out of the seam is
                                  inconclusive in his eyes. Well, oil can seep out of it too. I even
                                  have pictures (tried to post them last night, RevList didn't take) of
                                  oil bubbling out of the seam. So Pete suggested that the breech plug
                                  might not be fitted right. Why is something like this not checked
                                  when the muskets arrive from India?

                                  The bottom line is either before, or as a result of, my double loaded
                                  blank that I have proven to myself over and over an Italian musket
                                  can stand this breech plug is faulty. Either the materials in the
                                  musket weren't up to snuff, or because of a lack of any kind of
                                  quality control in India or in New Hampshire I was sold a musket that
                                  was defective, dangerous, and potentially deadly.

                                  Add to that, back on double loads, Pete advised me to proof it using
                                  140 grains of powder, a patch, ball, a second patch, and a second
                                  ball. Even though he mocked my "testing" method of something that
                                  happens every day at a reenactment, his test would have substituted
                                  10 grains of powder for two balls and two patches from what mine
                                  used. Again, if mine was defective BEFORE I fired a double blank
                                  (twice, I would add) or as a result of it, what would have happened
                                  if I used his proofing method?

                                  The rest of his muskets may be safe. I will say this, for every two
                                  people that tell me their MVT Besses are doing great I either get a
                                  post on a forum or a private email from someone who has nothing but
                                  problems, albeit not a failure, with their MVT Long Land.

                                  Maybe I'm being to harsh on these India guns. Our Italian
                                  Springfields and Enfields regularly stand up to double loadings
                                  either through accident or through purposefully demonstration at
                                  historic sites. Our .58 and .577 caliber rifle muskets regularly
                                  stand 120 grain charges. Our .69 muskets regularly stand 160 grain
                                  charges. If these India guns are marketed as being the same as, and
                                  as strong as, the "big names" (as Pete puts in his FAQ) as well as
                                  being made to live fire, shouldn't the same safety and quality be
                                  expected from them?

                                  Based on this experience, I'm not trusting my life to one again. Not
                                  just MVT, that goes for the whole lot of them, MVT, Military
                                  Heritage, and Loyalist Arms.

                                  By the way, if you guys want reports of another India gun failure
                                  other than mine and that Bess that blew, go to
                                  http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?
                                  disc=154544;article=8923;title=First%20Georgia%20State%20Line%
                                  20Discussion%20Page;pagemark=25. A Loyalist Arms Lorenz developed a
                                  cracked barrel after only a 100 grain proof charge. Being .62 caliber
                                  smoothbore, a double load should have been 124 grains. I've also been
                                  contacted by a CW pard whose Loyalist 1840 cone in barrel blew a
                                  breech plug after he proofed it to their standards. So that's four
                                  India muskets that failed or blew that we know of, from at least two
                                  of the three manufacturers.

                                  Respectfully,

                                  Justin Prince

                                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Art Kenney <wakenney@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I don't think that there is enough information to condemn the
                                  company. So the barrel had issues on a double load. What is a
                                  double load, exactly? I know many people who load just enough to get
                                  a flash in the pan an a flash from the muzzle. I have stood beside
                                  people on the line who have loaded enough in a single round to make
                                  me wonder if they aren't better equipped to man a swivel gun than a
                                  musket. A double load at 80 grains, yielding 160, breaking the
                                  barrel is bad, yes. A double load at 120, yielding 240, cracking or
                                  deforming a barrel or breech plug is a little different.Art
                                  KenneyCommander, Fluvanna County Militia"Qui pugant et fugiunt."
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To: Revlist@...: musketman1816@...: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:11:18
                                  +0000Subject: [Revlist] Experience with MVT Co. & Muskets
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > For what it is worth- I have had several muskets from MVTCo. and
                                  have put many, many heavy loads (some over-loaded) through them
                                  without problem and have friends who have fired 100's of live rounds
                                  of round ball & buckshot through them. I know that the Fowlers, the
                                  LLP Muskets and the India Patterns have performed excellently. Plus,
                                  the forged springs are far superior to the cheaply made "other
                                  company" cast springs. When you buy a musket- have it inspected, or
                                  do it yourself. Pull the breech and take a peek. I have taken some
                                  apart and inspected the breech for my own curiousity- and no slot nor
                                  touchhole drilled at an angle that I have seen. Could it be a bad
                                  batch? very-possible.I cannot speak for anyone's experiences except
                                  my own. I will not generalize an entire company based on one
                                  experience- and without a definitive answer as well from a legal
                                  inspection. I have seen reenactors have issues with muskets from
                                  every company from Miroku, to Pedersoli to MVT Co.Thanks-Jon Kahoe
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _________________________________________________________________
                                  > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
                                  > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?
                                  ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Dave
                                  ... wrote: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816barrelstamping.jp ... INDIA ... ***************************************** I am the one who
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 4, 2008
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                                    --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Prince" <Tankerace_42@...>
                                    wrote:


                                    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Tankerace/1816barrelstamping.jp
                                    > g
                                    > Markings on the underside of the barrel. They read: A.H.U. UDR
                                    INDIA
                                    > above C/"4 digit serial number" 25/9/79. I in searching for MVT
                                    > muskets on this list I found someone with a Brown Bess barrel that
                                    > had the same stamping, just his S/N was lower. I've also heard on a
                                    > forum that a Loyalist Arms barrel had the same marking. So much for
                                    > them using different manufacturers.



                                    *****************************************




                                    I am the one who posted those barrel markings. This Bess has fired
                                    about 50 standard 100 grain 3Fg blank rounds and has last fired 25
                                    live ball rounds-.690 ball with 100 grain 2Fg charge, and no signs of
                                    any breech failure yet.

                                    Dave H
                                    3NH
                                  • Jon Kahoe
                                    Information for all: Although some claim this is old news- it seems to need an update: The barrel has NOT been sent for analysis to the vendor. I contacted the
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Feb 5, 2008
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                                      Information for all:

                                      Although some claim this is old news- it seems to need an update: The
                                      barrel has NOT been sent for analysis to the vendor. I contacted the
                                      vendor to get some definitive answers about safety and got that clear
                                      answer.

                                      Once the barrel has been evaluated, beyond Justin's experiences and
                                      images, I would like to know the metallugical issues from a competant
                                      lab which specializes in such matters.

                                      Trying to get to the bottom,
                                      Jon

                                      P.S.- By the way, thanks for all the hatemail from those with little
                                      tolerance for investigative questions.
                                    • thirdnewhampshire
                                      Jon, which barrel are you referring to? The Rock Ford Bess barrel or Justin s Springfield Model 1816 barrel? Sandy Walker
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Feb 5, 2008
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                                        Jon, which barrel are you referring to? The Rock Ford 'Bess barrel or
                                        Justin's Springfield Model 1816 barrel?

                                        Sandy Walker

                                        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Kahoe" <musketman1816@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Information for all:
                                        >
                                        > Although some claim this is old news- it seems to need an update: The
                                        > barrel has NOT been sent for analysis to the vendor. I contacted the
                                        > vendor to get some definitive answers about safety and got that clear
                                        > answer.
                                        >
                                        > Once the barrel has been evaluated, beyond Justin's experiences and
                                        > images, I would like to know the metallugical issues from a competant
                                        > lab which specializes in such matters.
                                        >
                                        > Trying to get to the bottom,
                                        > Jon
                                        >
                                        > P.S.- By the way, thanks for all the hatemail from those with little
                                        > tolerance for investigative questions.
                                        >
                                      • Jon Kahoe
                                        Sandy, Thanks for that point. I was referring to the 1816 barrel- being the most recent topic for safety. But simliarly, I would like to know about the blown
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Feb 5, 2008
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                                          Sandy,
                                          Thanks for that point. I was referring to the 1816 barrel- being the
                                          most recent topic for safety.
                                          But simliarly, I would like to know about the blown barrel as well. I
                                          would assume some folks are getting them overlapped mentally, as did I
                                          for a few minutes.

                                          Thanks for the clarification,
                                          Jon
                                        • Justin Prince
                                          Hi guys. The thing is boxed up and ready to go. Actually got to the Post Office just after it closed since I had to drive over to my FFL dealer in the next
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Feb 5, 2008
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                                            Hi guys. The thing is boxed up and ready to go. Actually got to the
                                            Post Office just after it closed since I had to drive over to my FFL
                                            dealer in the next town to get a box long enough for the barrel, so
                                            I'll send it out first thing in the morning USPS Priority. Will also
                                            get Delivery Confirmation, so I can let you guys know when MVT has it.
                                            I had to track down a box and $30 to send the barrel in, Pete just gave
                                            me a curt "send it in how you like" when I asked if he would do a call
                                            tag on it. I used an entire $5 spool of bubble wrap to cover the barrel
                                            itself so it should be good and sound when Pete gets it, as well as
                                            packed the box really tight.

                                            I also wrapped the breech section especially tight, so even if the
                                            barrel gets damaged in shipping (which one of the girls at MVT told me
                                            could *easily* happen when I called to find out how exactly to mail it)
                                            the breech section can still be investigated for defects even if the
                                            barrel is damaged beyond repair.

                                            Since some can't see the low quality cell phone pics I took numerous
                                            pictures with a good 35mm camera and some with one of the Wal Mart
                                            disposables, so by the weekend at the latest I should have some high
                                            quality shots to post.

                                            Mike Brooks, over at
                                            http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?
                                            tid/217396/tp/3/, looked at the photos of the breech and floated this
                                            theory on it:

                                            "The breeching on these Indian guns is unusual to say the least and I'm
                                            not quite sure why they do it. Instead of a standard breech plug the[y]
                                            seem to machine a plug with the profile of the barrel all the way
                                            around, thus the "seam" your seeing where all the liquids are leaking
                                            out of. I'm guessing they do this as a seal instead of properly
                                            breeching the barrel on the inside. What I'd really be annoyed with is
                                            the fact that the blasted touch hole is drilled at the bottom of the
                                            pan. That ain't going to work worth a damn. It's hard to tell from the
                                            photos, but do I see a massive gap between the back of the breech plug
                                            and the stock?"

                                            Will let you guys know the ETA for MVT having the barrel when I ship it
                                            tomorrow morning.

                                            Regards,

                                            Justin


                                            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Kahoe" <musketman1816@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Sandy,
                                            > Thanks for that point. I was referring to the 1816 barrel- being the
                                            > most recent topic for safety.
                                            > But simliarly, I would like to know about the blown barrel as well.
                                            I
                                            > would assume some folks are getting them overlapped mentally, as did
                                            I
                                            > for a few minutes.
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for the clarification,
                                            > Jon
                                            >
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