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Re: Crates, Chests and Boxes... - And Markings.

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  • raynersteve
    Hi John; Indeed, John, that seems to have been the method of marking, distinctive for that particular container. Best Regards, Steve ... (crate, cask, ... and
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 1, 2008
      Hi John;

      Indeed, John, that seems to have been the method of marking,
      distinctive for that particular container.

      Best Regards,

      Steve

      --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Sgt42RHR@... wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Steve,
      >
      > So, if I'm understanding this correctly, a shipping container
      (crate, cask,
      > bale, etc.) might be marked (in this case) with the "B" in a circle
      and
      > numbered "34"?
      >
      > Cheers,
      > John
      >
      >
      > steverayner@... writes:
      >
      > Here's another good item on period shipping marks:
      >
      > _http://www.haverforhttp://www.havhttp://www.hahttp:/_
      > (http://www.haverford.edu/library/special/aids/jewer/)
      >
      > "John Ewer Letters, 1772-1776
      > Ms. Coll. 957"
      >
      > Click on the first illustration (a capital "B" in a circle) to show a
      > larger view of the document. "Mark'd & Number'd as p Margin" You'll
      > see the description and how the system of marks works.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > John M. Johnston,
      > "There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness." Dave Barry
      >
      >
      >
      > **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

      > http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • raynersteve
      Hi Lloyd & All; Thank you, good sir, for the link. Indeed it shows the marking system used by the NW Company and it appears to be related to the systems used
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 1, 2008
        Hi Lloyd & All;

        Thank you, good sir, for the link. Indeed it shows the marking system
        used by the NW Company and it appears to be related to the systems
        used in commerce as a whole, though as you say, it is somewhat later -
        and styles of lettering, etc. did evolve.

        The East India Company was certainly famous, Lloyd and all, but one
        might wonder about it's relevance -compared to- marks actually known
        to have been used by merchants and military departments within the
        Colonies/States in the era 1775-1782 - especially when we may have
        documents showing what goods were specifically delivered to the armies
        or even the specific regiments we portray.

        The several shipping/transport documents quickly found in the GWP,
        suggest that State and other archives may have similar documents.

        Those who study the Continental Army may have actually already
        collected copies of documents listing what clothing and supplies were
        shipped to their regiment in a given year or location.

        These are the lists that show how many coats, shirts, breeches, etc.,
        or what kind and color cloth was actually sent. It is quite likely
        that the -actual- marks used on those bales, casks or chests, are
        recorded in the margin of the very same documents.

        What could be better than to use that information?

        There could be nothing better, IMHO, to freehand copy the shipping
        mark and package numbers as they appear as they appear on the
        paperwork, copying the style, in flat black oil, or even better,
        milk-based paint.

        If we are looking for models for lettering to beef up our repertoire,
        I would recommend the title pages of books of the 1750-1782 era. I
        would be careful not to go past 1782 because several new font styles
        were introduced after the war.

        Markings such as these would be the finishing touch after we have
        decided that we really do need to have this stuff and accurately
        re-created the chest, cask or bale.

        The earthenware jar in the Samuel Scott dock scene is very
        interesting. It is of a type commonly used for the shipment of olives
        and such goods from Spain and the Mediterranean. Why there is a bundle
        of fabric spilling out of it is a mystery known perhaps, only to the
        painter and the 18th century dock workers he depicts.

        Best Regards to All,

        Steve Rayner



        --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Lloyd Moler" <firelock@...> wrote:
        >
        > There is a good article on Marking Shipping Items at this site
        > http://www.northwestjournal.ca/XVII3.htm
        >
        > Though a slight bit late for our period, you can get a good idea of
        > how items being shipped looked during the time.
        >
        > I am also posting a picture in the Photo section titled "Dock
        > Scene." I think it was painted during the period and it shows items
        > on the dock in England with markings very similar to those in the
        > Northwest Journal site. There is even a bale with an East India
        > Company marking on it.
        >
        > East India Company shipped a lot more than tea. They were probably
        > the largest trading company in the Caribbean as well as the Far East
        > at the time. Notice in the painting, the blanket that appears to
        > have been shipped in the crock container. They had a brisk business
        > in sugar, and molasses for the manufacture of rum.
        >
        > Hope this helps improve your camps image. A few properly marked
        > bales and shipping crates and barrels laying about definitely
        > improves the looks of things in my minds eye.
        >
        > Lloyd Moler
        > Idaho State Lt. ALRA
        > Priest River, ID
        >
      • raynersteve
        Hi Lloyd & All; Thank you, good sir, for the link. Indeed it shows the marking system used by the NW Company and it appears to be related to the systems used
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 1, 2008
          Hi Lloyd & All;

          Thank you, good sir, for the link. Indeed it shows the marking system
          used by the NW Company and it appears to be related to the systems
          used in commerce as a whole, though as you say, it is somewhat later -
          and styles of lettering, etc. did evolve.

          The East India Company was certainly famous, Lloyd and all, but one
          might wonder about it's relevance -compared to- marks actually known
          to have been used by merchants and military departments within the
          Colonies/States in the era 1775-1782 - especially when we may have
          documents showing what goods were specifically delivered to the armies
          or even the specific regiments we portray.

          The several shipping/transport documents quickly found in the GWP,
          suggest that State and other archives may have similar documents.

          Those who study the Continental Army may have actually already
          collected copies of documents listing what clothing and supplies were
          shipped to their regiment in a given year or location.

          These are the lists that show how many coats, shirts, breeches, etc.,
          or what kind and color cloth was actually sent. It is quite likely
          that the -actual- marks used on those bales, casks or chests, are
          recorded in the margin of the very same documents.

          What could be better than to use that information?

          There could be nothing better, IMHO, to freehand copy the shipping
          mark and package numbers as they appear as they appear on the
          paperwork, copying the style, in flat black oil, or even better,
          milk-based paint.

          If we are looking for models for lettering to beef up our repertoire,
          I would recommend the title pages of books of the 1750-1782 era. I
          would be careful not to go past 1782 because several new font styles
          were introduced after the war.

          Markings such as these would be the finishing touch after we have
          decided that we really do need to have this stuff and accurately
          re-created the chest, cask or bale.

          The earthenware jar in the Samuel Scott dock scene is very
          interesting. It is of a type commonly used for the shipment of olives
          and such goods from Spain and the Mediterranean. Why there is a bundle
          of fabric spilling out of it is a mystery known perhaps, only to the
          painter and the 18th century dock workers he depicts.

          Best Regards to All,

          Steve Rayner



          --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Lloyd Moler" <firelock@...> wrote:
          >
          > There is a good article on Marking Shipping Items at this site
          > http://www.northwestjournal.ca/XVII3.htm
          >
          > Though a slight bit late for our period, you can get a good idea of
          > how items being shipped looked during the time.
          >
          > I am also posting a picture in the Photo section titled "Dock
          > Scene." I think it was painted during the period and it shows items
          > on the dock in England with markings very similar to those in the
          > Northwest Journal site. There is even a bale with an East India
          > Company marking on it.
          >
          > East India Company shipped a lot more than tea. They were probably
          > the largest trading company in the Caribbean as well as the Far East
          > at the time. Notice in the painting, the blanket that appears to
          > have been shipped in the crock container. They had a brisk business
          > in sugar, and molasses for the manufacture of rum.
          >
          > Hope this helps improve your camps image. A few properly marked
          > bales and shipping crates and barrels laying about definitely
          > improves the looks of things in my minds eye.
          >
          > Lloyd Moler
          > Idaho State Lt. ALRA
          > Priest River, ID
          >
        • Eric Bloomquist
          Steve, Regardless of the age of the signs, isn t there a tempting connection to the Revwar, at least for us... I seem to recall that a Sjt.of the King s
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 1, 2008
            Steve,
            Regardless of the age of the signs, isn't there a tempting connection to the Revwar, at least for us... I seem to recall that a Sjt.of the King's Regiment went on to be a leading partner in the NW Co.... just don't recall which one, (James Phillips? Bailey?). He had been working part-time for Edward Pollard the Commissary at Niagara and Sutler to the Regiment.

            Eric B.

            raynersteve <steverayner@...> wrote: Hi Lloyd & All;

            Thank you, good sir, for the link. Indeed it shows the marking system
            used by the NW Company and it appears to be related to the systems
            used in commerce as a whole, though as you say, it is somewhat later -
            and styles of lettering, etc. did evolve.

            The East India Company was certainly famous, Lloyd and all, but one
            might wonder about it's relevance -compared to- marks actually known
            to have been used by merchants and military departments within the
            Colonies/States in the era 1775-1782 - especially when we may have
            documents showing what goods were specifically delivered to the armies
            or even the specific regiments we portray.

            The several shipping/transport documents quickly found in the GWP,
            suggest that State and other archives may have similar documents.

            Those who study the Continental Army may have actually already
            collected copies of documents listing what clothing and supplies were
            shipped to their regiment in a given year or location.

            These are the lists that show how many coats, shirts, breeches, etc.,
            or what kind and color cloth was actually sent. It is quite likely
            that the -actual- marks used on those bales, casks or chests, are
            recorded in the margin of the very same documents.

            What could be better than to use that information?

            There could be nothing better, IMHO, to freehand copy the shipping
            mark and package numbers as they appear as they appear on the
            paperwork, copying the style, in flat black oil, or even better,
            milk-based paint.

            If we are looking for models for lettering to beef up our repertoire,
            I would recommend the title pages of books of the 1750-1782 era. I
            would be careful not to go past 1782 because several new font styles
            were introduced after the war.

            Markings such as these would be the finishing touch after we have
            decided that we really do need to have this stuff and accurately
            re-created the chest, cask or bale.

            The earthenware jar in the Samuel Scott dock scene is very
            interesting. It is of a type commonly used for the shipment of olives
            and such goods from Spain and the Mediterranean. Why there is a bundle
            of fabric spilling out of it is a mystery known perhaps, only to the
            painter and the 18th century dock workers he depicts.

            Best Regards to All,

            Steve Rayner

            --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Lloyd Moler" <firelock@...> wrote:
            >
            > There is a good article on Marking Shipping Items at this site
            > http://www.northwestjournal.ca/XVII3.htm
            >
            > Though a slight bit late for our period, you can get a good idea of
            > how items being shipped looked during the time.
            >
            > I am also posting a picture in the Photo section titled "Dock
            > Scene." I think it was painted during the period and it shows items
            > on the dock in England with markings very similar to those in the
            > Northwest Journal site. There is even a bale with an East India
            > Company marking on it.
            >
            > East India Company shipped a lot more than tea. They were probably
            > the largest trading company in the Caribbean as well as the Far East
            > at the time. Notice in the painting, the blanket that appears to
            > have been shipped in the crock container. They had a brisk business
            > in sugar, and molasses for the manufacture of rum.
            >
            > Hope this helps improve your camps image. A few properly marked
            > bales and shipping crates and barrels laying about definitely
            > improves the looks of things in my minds eye.
            >
            > Lloyd Moler
            > Idaho State Lt. ALRA
            > Priest River, ID
            >






            ---------------------------------
            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bernard Carol Kazwick
            Thank you. Bernie
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 2, 2008
              Thank you. Bernie
            • Sgt42RHR@aol.com
              Eric, I would tend to agree. International shipping was not limited to the military, in fact international commerce was a cornerstone of the British empire.
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 2, 2008
                Eric,
                I would tend to agree. International shipping was not limited to the
                military, in fact international commerce was a cornerstone of the British empire.
                I doubt that when the RevWar ended the system of marking commercial shipping
                containers was scrapped in favor of a new system. I am confident in fact
                that it did not and that it continued to evolve. I suspect that a symbol and a
                number or a written label during the RevWar period and one 25 years later
                probably differed primarily in the script of the lettering.

                But hey, I've been wrong before!

                Cheers,
                John
                sjteric@... writes:

                Steve,
                Regardless of the age of the signs, isn't there a tempting connection to the
                Revwar, at least for us... I seem to recall that a Sjt.of the King's
                Regiment went on to be a leading partner in the NW Co.... just don't recall which
                one, (James Phillips? Bailey?). He had been working part-time for Edward
                Pollard the Commissary at Niagara and Sutler to the Regiment.

                Eric B.




                John M. Johnston,
                "There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness." Dave Barry



                **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
                (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
                48)


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • raynersteve
                Hi Eric; Indeed, one could scarcely move anything on the St. Lawrence - Great Lakes navigation without competing for space with the NWC. Protection of the Fur
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 3, 2008
                  Hi Eric;

                  Indeed, one could scarcely move anything on the St. Lawrence - Great
                  Lakes navigation without competing for space with the NWC. Protection
                  of the Fur Trade was after all, the original reason for the 8th being
                  in Canada.

                  A lot of the names in the page kindly provided by Mr. Moler are
                  frequently mentioned in transactions with the 8th.

                  We would just need to fine-tune the information on the web page by
                  looking at dated shipping documents. No doubt there would be some
                  goods destined specifically to Officers of the 8th. One couldn't get
                  much closer to a correct period marking than that.

                  Best Regards,

                  Steve Rayner



                  --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Eric Bloomquist <sjteric@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Steve,
                  > Regardless of the age of the signs, isn't there a tempting
                  connection to the Revwar, at least for us... I seem to recall that a
                  Sjt.of the King's Regiment went on to be a leading partner in the NW
                  Co.... just don't recall which one, (James Phillips? Bailey?). He had
                  been working part-time for Edward Pollard the Commissary at Niagara
                  and Sutler to the Regiment.
                  >
                  > Eric B.
                  >
                  > raynersteve <steverayner@...> wrote:
                  Hi Lloyd & All;
                  >
                  > Thank you, good sir, for the link. Indeed it shows the marking system
                  > used by the NW Company and it appears to be related to the systems
                  > used in commerce as a whole, though as you say, it is somewhat later -
                  > and styles of lettering, etc. did evolve.
                  >
                  > The East India Company was certainly famous, Lloyd and all, but one
                  > might wonder about it's relevance -compared to- marks actually known
                  > to have been used by merchants and military departments within the
                  > Colonies/States in the era 1775-1782 - especially when we may have
                  > documents showing what goods were specifically delivered to the armies
                  > or even the specific regiments we portray.
                  >
                  > The several shipping/transport documents quickly found in the GWP,
                  > suggest that State and other archives may have similar documents.
                  >
                  > Those who study the Continental Army may have actually already
                  > collected copies of documents listing what clothing and supplies were
                  > shipped to their regiment in a given year or location.
                  >
                  > These are the lists that show how many coats, shirts, breeches, etc.,
                  > or what kind and color cloth was actually sent. It is quite likely
                  > that the -actual- marks used on those bales, casks or chests, are
                  > recorded in the margin of the very same documents.
                  >
                  > What could be better than to use that information?
                  >
                  > There could be nothing better, IMHO, to freehand copy the shipping
                  > mark and package numbers as they appear as they appear on the
                  > paperwork, copying the style, in flat black oil, or even better,
                  > milk-based paint.
                  >
                  > If we are looking for models for lettering to beef up our repertoire,
                  > I would recommend the title pages of books of the 1750-1782 era. I
                  > would be careful not to go past 1782 because several new font styles
                  > were introduced after the war.
                  >
                  > Markings such as these would be the finishing touch after we have
                  > decided that we really do need to have this stuff and accurately
                  > re-created the chest, cask or bale.
                  >
                  > The earthenware jar in the Samuel Scott dock scene is very
                  > interesting. It is of a type commonly used for the shipment of olives
                  > and such goods from Spain and the Mediterranean. Why there is a bundle
                  > of fabric spilling out of it is a mystery known perhaps, only to the
                  > painter and the 18th century dock workers he depicts.
                  >
                  > Best Regards to All,
                  >
                  > Steve Rayner
                  >
                  > --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, "Lloyd Moler" <firelock@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > There is a good article on Marking Shipping Items at this site
                  > > http://www.northwestjournal.ca/XVII3.htm
                  > >
                  > > Though a slight bit late for our period, you can get a good idea of
                  > > how items being shipped looked during the time.
                  > >
                  > > I am also posting a picture in the Photo section titled "Dock
                  > > Scene." I think it was painted during the period and it shows items
                  > > on the dock in England with markings very similar to those in the
                  > > Northwest Journal site. There is even a bale with an East India
                  > > Company marking on it.
                  > >
                  > > East India Company shipped a lot more than tea. They were probably
                  > > the largest trading company in the Caribbean as well as the Far East
                  > > at the time. Notice in the painting, the blanket that appears to
                  > > have been shipped in the crock container. They had a brisk business
                  > > in sugar, and molasses for the manufacture of rum.
                  > >
                  > > Hope this helps improve your camps image. A few properly marked
                  > > bales and shipping crates and barrels laying about definitely
                  > > improves the looks of things in my minds eye.
                  > >
                  > > Lloyd Moler
                  > > Idaho State Lt. ALRA
                  > > Priest River, ID
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
                  Try it now.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • raynersteve
                  Hi John & All; Just to clarify on the NWC... The basis system is as far as I can tell, valid to the AWI era. What we would want to do is to refine the focus on
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 3, 2008
                    Hi John & All;

                    Just to clarify on the NWC...

                    The basis system is as far as I can tell, valid to the AWI era.

                    What we would want to do is to refine the focus on the basis of
                    merchants who were members active during the AWI. Documents specific
                    to the era are lodged in various archives, which would enable us to do
                    that. Once we had specific documents in hand, we would know how
                    specific shipments were marked, possibly, even right down to the exact
                    bale.

                    Cheers!

                    Steve Rayner

                    --- In Revlist@yahoogroups.com, Sgt42RHR@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Eric,
                    > I would tend to agree. International shipping was not limited to the
                    > military, in fact international commerce was a cornerstone of the
                    British empire.
                    > I doubt that when the RevWar ended the system of marking commercial
                    shipping
                    > containers was scrapped in favor of a new system. I am confident
                    in fact
                    > that it did not and that it continued to evolve. I suspect that a
                    symbol and a
                    > number or a written label during the RevWar period and one 25 years
                    later
                    > probably differed primarily in the script of the lettering.
                    >
                    > But hey, I've been wrong before!
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    > John
                    > sjteric@... writes:
                    >
                    > Steve,
                    > Regardless of the age of the signs, isn't there a tempting
                    connection to the
                    > Revwar, at least for us... I seem to recall that a Sjt.of the King's
                    > Regiment went on to be a leading partner in the NW Co.... just
                    don't recall which
                    > one, (James Phillips? Bailey?). He had been working part-time for
                    Edward
                    > Pollard the Commissary at Niagara and Sutler to the Regiment.
                    >
                    > Eric B.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > John M. Johnston,
                    > "There is a fine line between hobby and mental illness." Dave Barry
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL
                    Music.
                    >
                    (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
                    > 48)
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
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