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About the dose used in: Re: HGH study... rather disturbing

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  • jgarciamd@aol.com
    Just a small point but... The dose of HGH (2.0 mgs or 6 iu per kg) that they gave the rats would be equivalent to 6 iu x 68 kgs. for a 150 lb. man, which is
    Message 1 of 1 , Mar 15, 2006
      Just a small point but... The dose of HGH (2.0 mgs or 6 iu per kg)
      that they gave the rats would be equivalent to 6 iu x 68 kgs. for
      a 150 lb. man, which is more than 400 units!

      Ridiculous amounts!

      It makes you wonder what their intent is. Maybe they wanted to
      see problems, so they massively overdose them to produce the

      A few years ago they also gave intensive care patients doses that
      were way too high and caused some problems... well if you give
      them too much water, they will have problems too.

      Julio L Garcia, MD FACS
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      Previous Post:
      HGH study... rather disturbing

      [Hello Dr. Garcia! Thanks for catching that! You are absolutely
      right, the dose they used is much too much. So then what? I was
      also convinced that we can't use growth hormone on patients in
      intensive care, with trauma, or in severe pain. So, maybe it
      isn't true?

      Can somebody please find some more studies of HGH used on
      patients with trauma, in intensive care, after accidents, with
      great pain, etc. and send them to me, please? Let's see if we
      can find a study that is not rigged to show that HGH doesn't work...

      I wonder why somebody would do such a thing? I also wonder what
      are Jay Olshansky and Thomas Perl's motives in going out of their
      way to write an article to try to make HGH illegal, also. Why are
      they against something that so many of us find is good for us?
      If they don't want to take it, that is fine with me, but why do
      they want the rest of us not to be able to take it either?

      I'm glad to hear from you, Dr. Garcia. I know you are busy with
      your own forum, and congratulations for having it... but it is a
      pleasure to see that you are still subscribed to Rejuvenation.
      For those who don't know Dr. Garcia, he has been subscribed to
      Rejuvenation for many years, and wrote many, many excellent posts
      at a time when I was still learning... so I always say he is one
      of my Teachers, because that is what he is.

      I have a page with Dr. Garcia's answers to questions which we
      asked him, which you can read here:


      From: patholly
      Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 10:49 am
      Subject: * * * Re: H GH study... rather disturbing patholly@...

      I got responses to this post from Sammie, Paul, Stuart, Dick,
      Pat, and Vasilis, so I am pasting the original post at the top
      and then various answers and comments below it. I think this
      makes it more interesting to read, from top to bottom.

      Thanks to all who wrote. - Ellis

      Michael wrote:

      Below is a study on GH and lung injury conducted in China.
      The results are exactly opposite of what I would have expected
      on an intuitive basis. In fact, I was surfinr the web hoping
      to find just the opposite result. But after reading the
      abstract, it makes perfect sense to me.

      Can anyone with credible medical credentials comment on this
      study? (and I don't just mean M.D. - judge your own credentials,
      but I'm looking for more than just opinions or defense of

      Growth Hormone Increases Lung NF-B Activation and Lung
      Microvascular Injury Induced by Lipopolysaccharide in Rats

      Zhihai Liu1, Yingqun Yu2, Yun Jiang3 and Jieshou Li1
      1 Department of Surgery, Nanjing University College of
      Medicine, Nanjing, China

      2 Department of Anaesthesiology, Nanjing University College
      of Medicine, Nanjing, China

      3 Department of Gerontology, Gulou Hospital, Nanjing, China

      Address correspondence to Jieshou Li, M.D., Research Institute
      of General Surgery, Jinling Hospital, 305 East Zhongshan Road,
      Nanjing 210002, Jiangsu Province, P. R. China;
      tel 86 25 482 4804; fax 86 25 480 3956;
      e-mail Lijiesou@....

      The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of growth
      hormone (GH) on nuclear factor kappa B (NF-B) activation and
      organ injury induced by lipopolysaccharide (LPS) in rats.

      Male Wistar rats were divided into 6 groups treated with saline,
      LPS (5 mg/kg), LPS plus GH (0.5, 1.0, 2.0 mg/kg), or GH
      (2.0 mg/kg) alone for 2 or 4 hr.

      NF-B activity and I-B level in lung, lung accumulation of
      neutrophils, and lung microvascular injury were measured. LPS-
      challenged rats had increased NF-B activity and decreased I-B
      level in lung, compared to controls.

      GH dramatically enhanced NF-B activation and I-B degradation
      induced by LPS challenge. LPS plus GH treatment increased lung
      accumulation of neutrophils, compared with LPS treatment.

      Also, subsequently, GH treatment increased lung microvascular
      injury induced by LPS.

      These findings suggest that treatment with GH is harmful, instead
      of beneficial, to LPS-induced organ injury. Increased NF-B
      activation may be a critical in vivo mechanism that mediates GH
      action on LPS-induced organ injury.

      Thus, it is appropriate to rethink GH administration in critical
      illnesses; further studies are required to evaluate the safety
      and clinical benefits of GH administration in such conditions.

      [I don't know what is "nuclear factor kappa B (NF-B) activation
      and organ injury induced by lipopolysaccharide (LPS) in rats"
      and I don't know what "NF-B activity and I-B level in lung,
      lung accumulation of neutrophils, and lung microvascular injury"

      I don't know what is an "LPS-challenged rat" and I don't know
      what is "NF-B activity" or "decreased I-B level".

      I don't know what is a "neutrophil," but I think it is a white
      blood cell or an anti-body... so an increase of neutrophils means
      there is an infection, or some other disturbance in the body that
      requires a defense mechanism.

      And I don't know what is "lung microvascular injury induced by
      LPS"... but I get the picture that the rats got worse with HGH.

      I think all of this means that the rats were in shock or in
      trauma due to a serious injury of the lungs... they were given
      HGH, and instead of it helping them, it made their condition

      This is not the first or the only study to show that HGH is not
      indicated in the case of trauma or serious injury. I agree with
      the conclusion of the study that says it clearly: "It is
      appropriate to rethink GH administration in critical illnesses."

      So: Don't take or recommend HGH to somebody who is critically
      ill, or has had a bad accident. Take HGH when you are healthy,
      but not if you are "critically ill" or with trauma...

      Thanks for sending this. If anybody else has a comment, or
      understands something different than I did, please send it to
      us. - Ellis]

      Pat wrote:

      Hi everyone,

      I understand the study being questioned.

      GH increases immune system functioning & activity this is why GH is
      FDA approved for AIDS patients. In this study neutrophils and NF b
      are a component of the immune system " inflammatory process".
      Inflamation leads to tissue destruction.

      Within the hospital environment, GH is NEVER given to critically ill
      patient. This is CONTRAINDICATED. China is just finding out what
      American medical journals have known for years. DO NOT GIVE GH TO
      critically ill patients.

      IT is the "illness" that causes GH function to go off balance and
      work negatively... it is not the GH itself.

      Hope this helps

      Pat RN MSN ( Student Nurse Practitioner)

      [Hello Pat... yes, it definitely helps! Thanks.

      As I also said in my reply, I had seen this before in other
      studies before, and I was aware of it. I don't always understand
      the details but I try to get the big picture... and the big picture
      in this case was that these mice were critically injured perhaps
      to try to show how HGH would cure them, and they found out

      I am sorry that anybody did this experiment... I might have told
      them GH would be contraindicated, if they had asked me, which might
      have saved the mice the pain of going through this experiment. I
      wonder if humans would like it if their lungs are purposely
      punctured and damaged to see if HGH will cure them, even if HGH
      would cure them, which it didn't. - Ellis]

      Paul wrote:


      Even though I have a science/medical backround I can't articulate
      the report into more common terms. However, the title says
      "----injury induced by lipopolysaccharide" (LPS). I would say that
      the report has to do, as you say, with the response to a
      substance (LPS) and GH.

      Neutrophils are our infection fighters in general. Higher LPS levels
      correlate with serious infections ie, septic shock. The worse the
      infection, the higher LPS levels.

      It would seem to me this report is saying rats respond less than
      normal while on GH. That might also mean if you have a blood
      infection with higher levels of LPS and you take GH, there is a poor
      response and microvascular damage is increased.

      [Yes, I think this is correct. HGH is not indicated for infections
      or inflammations, it would probably make it worse. - Ellis]

      For context, one report in the literature does not prove a point
      and secondly this study was based on a rat's response to LPS.

      I agree it is provacative but a preliminary report at best. I would
      wait for further scientific confirmation.

      In fact, most say taking GH improves immunity or response to
      infection in general. The lesser of evils?


      [It is indicated when we are healthy to make us stronger, and make
      our bones stronger so they don't break as easily, and it make our
      immune system stronger... but it is not indicated when we are not
      healthy. If the bone breaks, it does not help right when there is
      still a lot of swelling and pain... in fact it probably is
      contra-indicated right at that moment. - Ellis]

      Stuart wrote:

      I do not take GH or Testosterone when fighting any illness.

      [Why not?

      The worst illness I have gotten in the past 8 years has been
      some sniffles and sneezes, but I didn't stop taking HGH... - Ellis]

      Sammie wrote:

      I have read earlier studies on GH and treatment of critically ill
      patients which in essence said the same thing. When there is
      massive injury or severe illness GH did not improve but complicated

      I have processed this information as follows: When ill I do not
      take GH. I stop it until my course of surgery or antibiotics is
      finished and I am feeling better. GH taken at that point seems to
      speed the recovery period. If you have inflammation, don't take GH
      until it's under control.

      Hugs to you Ellis.


      [Thank you Sammie... Good and practical advice from Sammie, as
      always. So... what if somebody knows he is GOING TO GO into
      surgery? Should he take HGH BEFORE surgery? I would advise,
      yes, start taking or continue to take HGH until you get to surgery
      and suspend it for a few days after surgery, at least until you
      are no longer in trauma or swollen and in pain... but now I am
      wondering if perhaps it should be suspended a few days before
      surgery, to lower IGF-1 a bit... ??? - Ellis]

      Vasilis wrote:

      Hello Ellis and all,

      I have no idea either, but if I were to risk a guess I would say
      that "Lipopolysaccharide" has something to do with sugar in the
      blood. And I think that if HGH administration is not combined with
      blood sugar control it can help increase blood sugar in the short
      term. Perhaps this can affect "Lipopolysaccharide".

      [It is an interesting point... I wonder if varying the glucose
      levels would make it better or worse for these mice, or for
      humans too... My GUESS, of course, is that higher glucose levels
      would cause more problems to heal than lower glucose levels, so
      higher glucose would cause more inflammation and response from
      the immune system. - Ellis]

      Nevertheless, I agree with you that this is not an issue for healthy
      users of low-dose HGH.



      [No, it is not an issue when we are healthy, but we should know
      about it... especially because some of us think we know more than
      the doctors, so we don't ask them their opinions, and we go around
      giving our advice to others, especially when they are sick.

      Somebody 57 years old came to see me who has been feeling low and
      depressed, with a lack of energy, high stress, and all the symptoms
      of living in a city for too long. The first thing I told him is
      that I am not a doctor... He said he has been told that I am
      an emminence, which made me feel pretty good, but the fact is that
      I am not a doctor nor an emminence, I just happen to know something
      that many doctors don't know anything about, or believe to be false.
      (Everybody on Rejuvenation who knows about growth hormone and
      testosterone and insulin and EPO and DHEA and melatonin is an
      "emminence" in this respect...)

      He has been to several doctors who have not found anything physically
      wrong with him, and his blood tests did not reveal anything either...
      His doctors have given him anti-depressants, sleeping pills,
      relaxants, etc. and of course none has worked. (He has a
      doctor's prescription for growth hormone and testosterone...
      so... he has at least one good doctor.)

      I asked him to take blood tests because his doctors had not asked
      for them... I asked him to test for insulin, glucose, hb-A1c,
      P.S.A., hematocrit, and hemoglobin. I didn't ask for many others,
      because I have plenty to work with, with these alone.

      After he took the blood test but before I have the results, I gave
      him a shot of testosterone and 4 iu of HGH. I told him that if he
      did not feel much better in ONE HOUR I would return his money...
      He was with me for another 10 minutes after the shots when he said
      he already was feeling much better...

      When he left, I asked him to call me and tell me how he feels in a
      few hours... He called me a few hours later to thank me, to tell me
      that he was feeling sensational, and that he was very happy and
      lucky that he had been referred to me.

      So... this is an example of somebody feeling bad, but not in
      trauma or pain or swelling, and growth hormone certainly can help
      in a case like this. - Ellis]

      Dick Maro asks:

      Ok what is critically ill?

      [Good question. If I was a doctor I would not use HGH after
      a bad accident, with broken bones or bumps or organ injuries
      or torn body parts. I would use it after the patient has
      recovered, and is not in bad pain from the accident anymore.

      Or, lets say it is also an illness bad enough for the patient
      to be hospitalized, where there is great pain and suffering.
      So I would not use HGH

      Can anybody else define what is meant by "critically ill" ?

      - Ellis]
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