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  • dragonryder60
    Well being new to these types of lengthy discussions and knowing beforehand that most are ALOT more knowledgeable than I, I decided to go ahead and take a
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 2, 2006
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      Well being "new" to these types of lengthy discussions and knowing
      beforehand that most are ALOT more knowledgeable than I, I decided to
      go ahead and take a stab at what was needed to do. I have studied
      these lengthy, sometimes funny texts every night since I got the
      listing of them....whew!! that was alot of reading, thank heavens I
      am an avaricious reader or I never would have made it through them
      all.

      CHAPTER 8 VERSISES 1-12
      First my own questions, what with being new and all I am still trying
      to sort all this out....I noticed in the readings that all
      these "orders" were listed out with a matriarch and patriarch being
      selected by the council of the preceding order. It never really
      states anywhere that I could find what the criteria for being chosen
      would be or what they would actually be doing.

      PAGE 486
      2) I also noticed that there were alot of orders with strange names
      that do not really explain what the purpose of these special orders
      such as Order of the Volcano, Order of the Evening Mystic, ummmm
      Order of the Pack Rat or some such. I can't seem to find where I saw
      these now but I KNOW I did. What purpose, exactly, did all these
      orders serve? I did find a short paragraph just now on some of them
      such as Puck, Suzuki and Bambi...

      PAGE 6 CHAPTER 6 VERSES 1-9

      First verse: "Behold there is not one among you who is greater than
      they who have given of themselves in service to you. Does this mean
      that the person who gives service to you(who is this "you" referring
      to??) is great because he/she has been called to serve the people?

      General question: Why did they choose to have incantations and poems
      as chapters in the chronicles? I can understand having different
      rituals listed out or even liturgies but what was the reasoning for
      poems and incantations?

      I would greatly appreciate it if someone could explain the method
      decided on writing out the chapters and such in the different
      chronicles. In some areas you find what seems like liturgy like
      information such as Chapter the SEVENTH (A Response at Samhain) the
      entire section, and in other areas you find what seems like a telling
      of events that happened, such as page 9 Chapter the SIXTH.
    • Michael Scharding
      Bravo, Dragon Ryder for having the courage to start the posts! I ll post my thoughts about your post in a subsequent posting. Everybody feel free to post your
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 3, 2006
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        Bravo, Dragon Ryder for having the courage to start the posts!

        I'll post my thoughts about your post in a subsequent posting.

        Everybody feel free to post your assignments and respond to other's
        postings!

        -Mike

        --- In Reformed_Druid_Texts@yahoogroups.com, "dragonryder60"
        <dragonryder60@...> wrote:
        >
        >
      • Norm Nelson
        Bearing in mind that I have not read some of this stuff for 40+ years, here are a couple answers off the top of my head. Take them with a block of salt... a
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 3, 2006
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          Bearing in mind that I have not read some of this stuff for 40+ years, here are a couple answers off the top of my head.  Take them with a block of salt... a grain simply isn't enough!
           
          [It is IMPORTANT in your reading to recognize that there is a BIG difference between what became the Chronicles and the ever-growing monster that Mike Scharding has compiled in an attempt to garner EVERYTHING Druish.  His work is incredibly valuable, but it's not "sacred scripture". Bear in mind, also, that much of the earliest writing(s) was deliberately obscure, just because it seemed more fun that way!]
           
          Higher orders:
              Back in the days when RDNA was still a protest movement, Fisher, Frangquist and I decided that it would be fun to have the "higher orders" in order to make ourselves sound more important.  In a bit of conspiracy, Frangquist & I chose Fisher as Patriarch of the 4th Order; it meant he wouldn't have any higher titles, and we'd outrank him!
              The rituals for the "ordination" to the higher orders were actually quite serious; mine, for instance, used some grain (from the local feed store) to celebrate "the goodness of grain" and the stuff that came therefrom (i.e., Scotch!).  Since there were only the 3 of us involved, it made sense for the members of one order to elect the Patriarch of the next higher order, who then initiated the others as members of that order, which then elected the next higher Patriarch, etc., etc. 
              Since there were only 3 of us involved, the higher orders only went up through 6th.  I don't remember giving consent (remember, it was a long time ago) but I think there was eventually a 7th, also.
              Some of the offshoots of RDNA (splinters, sects, whatevers) have apparently instituted their own set of higher orders, either for self-aggrandizement or as rewards for service, etc. I personally know absolutely zilch about any of them.
           
          As for the Chronicles:
              The first writings were satirical; echoes of the King James Bible language put to the service of our religious protest.  As you read through the early stuff, you'll notice that it gradually became much more serious.  After Dr. Messenger came to Carleton, we added some original sources (the poems in Customs 9-11 came from him, as I recall), and other stuff about which to meditate came in also.
              The weekly service ritual wasn't in the original "book" which became the Chronicles, but slipped in somehow, along with a lot of other "services" and such.
              Various things were added because they seemed appropriate, or because somebody liked them.  I wrote the "Hymn of Praise" that's in Latter Chronicles 10 during the summer of 1963, following the "style" (repetitions and long lists) of a couple of the canticles in the Episcopal church Morning Prayer service, since I liked them.  When it came time to "chronicle" the abolition of the religious attendance requirement at Carleton (June, 1964) it seemed appropriate to someone to add them to the Chronicles at that point, even if the chronology was wrong.
              The "Chant" in Customs 2 was (if I remember rightly) written by Katie Courtice (now married to Peter Basquin) and Peter Basquin wrote the music for it; subsequently, it was used in every service.
              In other words, the writings of RDNA just sort of accreted.  Like our solar system, which apparently originated in the same fashion, there are some major planets there, and also a lot of little rocks and debris.  Nobody, however, has ever had the hubris to go through and weed it out — for one thing, it wouldn't be Druish to do so, since everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion of what's of value, and secondly, whoever attempted it would be so seriously battered by all the people offended by the attempt that physical survival would be unlikely! 
           
          Keep on asking questions!!!  None of us finds the concept of being forced to think offensive, and we'll all learn something from it.  Let's just hope that everyone doesn't feel compelled to share every thought!
           
          Well, this is long enough for now.  I'll try to do a little research on some of your other points.
        • panidaho
          ... thought! Don t worry, I m not always that wordy. :) T
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 3, 2006
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            > Let's just hope that everyone doesn't feel compelled to share every
            thought!


            Don't worry, I'm not always that wordy. :)

            T
          • Michael Scharding
            ... trying ... being ... chosen ... The Higher Orders (4th -10th) don t really have any listed requirements. I believe in practice that when a
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 5, 2006
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              --- In Reformed_Druid_Texts@yahoogroups.com, "dragonryder60"
              <dragonryder60@...> wrote:

              >
              > CHAPTER 8 VERSISES 1-12
              > First my own questions, what with being new and all I am still
              trying
              > to sort all this out....I noticed in the readings that all
              > these "orders" were listed out with a matriarch and patriarch
              being
              > selected by the council of the preceding order. It never really
              > states anywhere that I could find what the criteria for being
              chosen
              > would be or what they would actually be doing.

              The Higher Orders (4th -10th) don't really have any listed
              requirements. I believe in practice that when a patriach/matriarch
              found a priest with those qualities they would invite them, or the
              priest would find the patriach/matriarch. As we'll see in Steps 6-
              10, the desire to bring greater clarity and ease of entry will
              become a recurring theme in Council of DAL communications. As to
              what they do, they never really did much as a group, being up to the
              individual to carry out the general theme of the higher order.


              > PAGE 486
              > 2) I also noticed that there were alot of orders with strange
              names
              > that do not really explain what the purpose of these special
              orders
              > such as Order of the Volcano, Order of the Evening Mystic, ummmm
              > Order of the Pack Rat or some such. I can't seem to find where I
              saw
              > these now but I KNOW I did. What purpose, exactly, did all these
              > orders serve? I did find a short paragraph just now on some of
              them
              > such as Puck, Suzuki and Bambi...

              One side effect of the "limitation" of there only being 7 titled
              higher orders, is that folks had an itching to make groups to carry
              out special interests. ALso the higher orders being only for
              priests was a hindrance to larger membership, so the concept of
              other Orders was devised to permit more flexibility in Berkeley,
              with Carleton following shortly thereafter in 1979.

              The liturgies of the Higher and Side Orders are in Part Three Pg 371-
              400. Usually the title alone was enough to indicate their
              activities. The only somewhat "active" in a group sense over the
              years was the Order of Dian Cecht, Order of Oberon (bardic), Earth
              Mother, and Order of Mithril Star. The others have been quiet in
              the way of news so far.

              > PAGE 6 CHAPTER 6 VERSES 1-9
              >
              > First verse: "Behold there is not one among you who is greater
              than
              > they who have given of themselves in service to you. Does this
              mean
              > that the person who gives service to you(who is this "you"
              referring
              > to??) is great because he/she has been called to serve the people?

              That is the reading that I would make. Orders for me have generally
              been about greater commitments of service to Druidism and the folks
              who need those services (Druids or not). You'll see this theme pop
              up in several of Shelton's epistles later on.


              > General question: Why did they choose to have incantations and
              poems
              > as chapters in the chronicles?

              I can understand having different
              > rituals listed out or even liturgies but what was the reasoning
              for
              > poems and incantations?
              >

              As you can see DC(R) was a collection of various documents, much
              like ARDA was a collection, although DC(R) is definitely better
              integrated in style, one section blurring into a nother. I believe
              that Frangquist was trying to stay as chronilogical as possible, so
              that if a document appeared to fit in the story's time line, it was
              stuck in there.

              Several sections are the poetical re-itifications of the words used
              in the liturgies or ordinations or even the Constitution (Book of
              Law). SO yes, he does switch between story mode and "oh here's a
              little poem said at that time" mode. :)

              INteresting that you noticed that, it always just seemed a
              comfortable jumble to me.

              -Yours inthe Mother,
              Mike
            • Tezra Reitan
              I remember Matriarch Joan Carruth telling me that the 4th Order was the Order of Dian Cecht, who was the Celtic God of healing. She was in that order because
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 8, 2006
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                I remember Matriarch Joan Carruth telling me that the 4th Order was the
                Order of Dian Cecht, who was the Celtic God of healing.  She was in that
                order because she wanted to be in the medical profession.
                Tegwedd

                On 11/2/06, dragonryder60 <dragonryder60@...> wrote:
                Well being "new" to these types of lengthy discussions and knowing
                beforehand that most are ALOT more knowledgeable than I, I decided to
                go ahead and take a stab at what was needed to do.  I have studied
                these lengthy, sometimes funny texts every night since I got the
                listing of them....whew!! that was alot of reading, thank heavens I
                am an avaricious reader or I never would have made it through them
                all.

                CHAPTER 8 VERSISES 1-12
                First my own questions, what with being new and all I am still trying
                to sort all this out....I noticed in the readings that all
                these "orders" were listed out with a matriarch and patriarch being
                selected by the council of the preceding order.  It never really
                states anywhere that I could find what the criteria for being chosen
                would be or what they would actually be doing.

                PAGE 486
                2) I also noticed that there were alot of orders with strange names
                that do not really explain what the purpose of these special orders
                such as Order of the Volcano, Order of the Evening Mystic, ummmm
                Order of the Pack Rat or some such.  I can't seem to find where I saw
                these now but I KNOW I did.  What purpose, exactly, did all these
                orders serve?  I did find a short paragraph just now on some of them
                such as Puck, Suzuki and Bambi...

                PAGE 6 CHAPTER 6 VERSES 1-9

                First verse:  "Behold there is not one among you who is greater than
                they who have given of themselves in service to you.  Does this mean
                that the person who gives service to you(who is this "you" referring
                to??) is great because he/she has been called to serve the people?

                General question:  Why did they choose to have incantations and poems
                as chapters in the chronicles?  I can understand having different
                rituals listed out or even liturgies but what was the reasoning for
                poems and incantations?

                I would greatly appreciate it if someone could explain the method
                decided on writing out the chapters and such in the different
                chronicles.  In some areas you find what seems like liturgy like
                information such as Chapter the SEVENTH (A Response at Samhain) the
                entire section, and in other areas you find what seems like a telling
                of events that happened, such as page 9 Chapter the SIXTH.





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              • Michael Scharding
                ... the ... that ... Maybe she called it that because... she was tired of having it taken for Grannos... ? -Mike
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 9, 2006
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                  --- In Reformed_Druid_Texts@yahoogroups.com, "Tezra Reitan"
                  <tezra.reitan@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I remember Matriarch Joan Carruth telling me that the 4th Order was
                  the
                  > Order of Dian Cecht, who was the Celtic God of healing. She was in
                  that
                  > order because she wanted to be in the medical profession.
                  > Tegwedd

                  Maybe she called it that because... "she was tired of having it taken
                  for Grannos..." ?

                  -Mike
                • Michael Scharding
                  ... was the ... in that ... Seriously,... The Order of Dian Cecht was introduced due to the perceived stoppage or inaccessibility of the Higher Orders (yet
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 9, 2006
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                    --- In Reformed_Druid_Texts@yahoogroups.com, "Tezra Reitan"
                    <tezra.reitan@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I remember Matriarch Joan Carruth telling me that the 4th Order
                    was the
                    > Order of Dian Cecht, who was the Celtic God of healing. She was
                    in that
                    > order because she wanted to be in the medical profession.
                    > Tegwedd

                    Seriously,... The Order of Dian Cecht was introduced due to the
                    perceived "stoppage" or inaccessibility of the Higher Orders (yet
                    again!) and Dian Cecht (along with Order of Miach) was one of the
                    first of what I've come to call the Side Orders, Back Orders, Lesser
                    Orders, etc (fill the pun) Orders, that were outside or besides or
                    around the Higher Orders, and could follow different rules of
                    membership or activity.

                    We'll probably cover those Higher Order in depth in Step 4 (Trivia
                    of Rules) and Step 6 (Shelton Affair) and Step 8 (Isaac Affair).

                    -Mike the FoOL
                    DAL, Gr, Be, Tr, Pk, Bmb, Sz, P.R.
                  • Stacey Weinberger
                    I thought the 4th Order was Grannos, also of healing, and Joan was co-Matriarch of it. At the Reunion in 03 she let it be known that those who wanted to be
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 12, 2006
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                      I thought the 4th Order was Grannos, also of healing, and Joan was
                      co-Matriarch of it. At the Reunion in '03 she let it be known that those
                      who wanted to be ordained by her should talk to her.

                      Stacey

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Michael Scharding" <mikerdna@...>
                      To: <Reformed_Druid_Texts@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:46 AM
                      Subject: [Reformed_Druid_Texts] Re: Step 1 - Topics of discussion.....


                      > --- In Reformed_Druid_Texts@yahoogroups.com, "Tezra Reitan"
                      > <tezra.reitan@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> I remember Matriarch Joan Carruth telling me that the 4th Order
                      > was the
                      >> Order of Dian Cecht, who was the Celtic God of healing. She was
                      > in that
                      >> order because she wanted to be in the medical profession.
                      >> Tegwedd
                      >
                      > Seriously,... The Order of Dian Cecht was introduced due to the
                      > perceived "stoppage" or inaccessibility of the Higher Orders (yet
                      > again!) and Dian Cecht (along with Order of Miach) was one of the
                      > first of what I've come to call the Side Orders, Back Orders, Lesser
                      > Orders, etc (fill the pun) Orders, that were outside or besides or
                      > around the Higher Orders, and could follow different rules of
                      > membership or activity.
                      >
                      > We'll probably cover those Higher Order in depth in Step 4 (Trivia
                      > of Rules) and Step 6 (Shelton Affair) and Step 8 (Isaac Affair).
                      >
                      > -Mike the FoOL
                      > DAL, Gr, Be, Tr, Pk, Bmb, Sz, P.R.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • ross wilke
                      Been thinking about soing that after I get my third order done. Stacey Weinberger wrote: I thought the 4th Order was
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 12, 2006
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                        Been thinking about soing that after I get my third order done.

                        Stacey Weinberger <poppinjay@...> wrote:
                        I thought the 4th Order was Grannos, also of healing, and Joan was
                        co-Matriarch of it. At the Reunion in '03 she let it be known that those
                        who wanted to be ordained by her should talk to her.

                        Stacey

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Michael Scharding" <mikerdna@hotmail. com>
                        To: <Reformed_Druid_ Texts@yahoogroup s.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:46 AM
                        Subject: [Reformed_Druid_ Texts] Re: Step 1 - Topics of discussion.. ...

                        > --- In Reformed_Druid_ Texts@yahoogroup s.com, "Tezra Reitan"
                        > <tezra.reitan@ ...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> I remember Matriarch Joan Carruth telling me that the 4th Order
                        > was the
                        >> Order of Dian Cecht, who was the Celtic God of healing. She was
                        > in that
                        >> order because she wanted to be in the medical profession.
                        >> Tegwedd
                        >
                        > Seriously,.. . The Order of Dian Cecht was introduced due to the
                        > perceived "stoppage" or inaccessibility of the Higher Orders (yet
                        > again!) and Dian Cecht (along with Order of Miach) was one of the
                        > first of what I've come to call the Side Orders, Back Orders, Lesser
                        > Orders, etc (fill the pun) Orders, that were outside or besides or
                        > around the Higher Orders, and could follow different rules of
                        > membership or activity.
                        >
                        > We'll probably cover those Higher Order in depth in Step 4 (Trivia
                        > of Rules) and Step 6 (Shelton Affair) and Step 8 (Isaac Affair).
                        >
                        > -Mike the FoOL
                        > DAL, Gr, Be, Tr, Pk, Bmb, Sz, P.R.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.

                      • Michael Scharding
                        Some may quibble about who is Patriarch or Matriarch, the administrator or simply the most active organizer. Put the 4th Order continues as long as there are
                        Message 11 of 11 , Nov 13, 2006
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                          Some may quibble about who is Patriarch or Matriarch, the
                          administrator or simply the most active organizer. Put the 4th
                          Order continues as long as there are members, Atriarchs or not...
                          and can grow without one, if that is necessary... :) I don't believe
                          they really need a leader, as such, and the 4th Order would be
                          particuliarly the hardest to fix, especially as we'll discuss later,
                          we really haven't had a decisive succession yet in any of the
                          Atriarchies. The general feeling I've noted is that they are for
                          life. (Egads! That means no retirement for me! )

                          --- In Reformed_Druid_Texts@yahoogroups.com, "Stacey Weinberger"
                          <poppinjay@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I thought the 4th Order was Grannos, also of healing, and Joan was
                          > co-Matriarch of it. At the Reunion in '03 she let it be known
                          that those
                          > who wanted to be ordained by her should talk to her.
                          >
                          > Stacey
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Michael Scharding" <mikerdna@...>
                          > To: <Reformed_Druid_Texts@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:46 AM
                          > Subject: [Reformed_Druid_Texts] Re: Step 1 - Topics of
                          discussion.....
                          >
                          >
                          > > --- In Reformed_Druid_Texts@yahoogroups.com, "Tezra Reitan"
                          > > <tezra.reitan@> wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >> I remember Matriarch Joan Carruth telling me that the 4th Order
                          > > was the
                          > >> Order of Dian Cecht, who was the Celtic God of healing. She was
                          > > in that
                          > >> order because she wanted to be in the medical profession.
                          > >> Tegwedd
                          > >
                          > > Seriously,... The Order of Dian Cecht was introduced due to the
                          > > perceived "stoppage" or inaccessibility of the Higher Orders (yet
                          > > again!) and Dian Cecht (along with Order of Miach) was one of the
                          > > first of what I've come to call the Side Orders, Back Orders,
                          Lesser
                          > > Orders, etc (fill the pun) Orders, that were outside or besides
                          or
                          > > around the Higher Orders, and could follow different rules of
                          > > membership or activity.
                          > >
                          > > We'll probably cover those Higher Order in depth in Step 4
                          (Trivia
                          > > of Rules) and Step 6 (Shelton Affair) and Step 8 (Isaac Affair).
                          > >
                          > > -Mike the FoOL
                          > > DAL, Gr, Be, Tr, Pk, Bmb, Sz, P.R.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
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