Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Reformed_Druid_Texts] Step 8: The Branching of the Reform – Middle Isaac Affair

Expand Messages
  • Stephen Crimmins
    Congratulations on catching up, a few comments, a few answers. ... Thankyou for understanding us. ... The Archives are indeed a Carleton, kept at the bottom of
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 1, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Congratulations on catching up, a few comments, a few
      answers.
      --- Beth Savage <bsavage@...> wrote:
      > First, I have a confession to make. From things that
      > people had told me
      > about RDNA prior to joining this list, I was under
      > the impression that
      > the order was just a bunch of people who fooled
      > around with paganism,
      > but didn�t really do much of anything. Now I know
      > better. The more I
      > read about the RDNA, the more impressed I am with
      > the organization and
      > its members- especially the thoughtfulness that
      > people have put (and
      > continue to put) into their writings. This is a
      > group that I would be
      > proud to be a member of� and hey, that makes me a
      > member!

      Thankyou for understanding us.

      > There isn�t a 3rd degree anywhere near me, but I�m
      > thinking about
      > traveling to do some research in the Carlton
      > Archives (which I assume
      > are at Carlton, but may be with Mike, wherever he
      > is). Maybe that that
      > point, I can attend a ritual.

      The Archives are indeed a Carleton, kept at the bottom
      of the library in Carleton's College Archives. If you
      come before school is over (early June) there will
      definitely be Druids around the college for services,
      but even for the summer I and one other 3rd order will
      be withing 1/2 hour to an hour away.

      > The problem is that there are other explanations-
      > coincidence
      > (statistics can tell us when something is by
      > chance), that you live in
      > an area that has a lot of storms and you
      > un/intentionally call on
      > Taranis when you feel a storm coming, or even that
      > you personally are
      > magically making the storm happen.
      > Again, I�m curious if anyone called Isaac on this.

      I don't think anybody ever went through Isaac's
      Epistles with a red pen and marked the stuff they
      didn't like. I think they that the Druids on the other
      side of the line generally found that Isaac's letters
      didn't jive with their type of Druidism.

      But, as far as dieties in specific goes I've never
      been clear what exactly Isaac meant, how real his
      dieties are. Certainly their realer (supposed to be if
      they exist) than other peoples. I've generally taken
      "on some level" to be a wide acceptance of what those
      God's may be, many of the points you raise could still
      point to Gods on some level (though I'm not sure that
      Bonewits would be as happy with it).

      >What�s DDT and DAL? I think that one is the reward
      >for getting through the Study program, but I don�t
      >know what the other is. Stephen?

      Right, DDT, Dean of Druid Textology is offered for
      completion of the program, and has been given for a
      number of Druid Text related activities, the first was
      awarded for creating a number of footnotes to the
      Druid Chronicles (Reformed). DAL stands for Dalon ap
      Landu, the patron of the 3rd order and is the simple
      abbreviation for a member there of. Of course, there
      are those who say Dalon ap Landu is dead and the Hu
      Gaddwern (sp?) is the new patron, but I've never seen
      anyone signing their name HG, yet.

      Druids have a silly liking for titles. I think that it
      goes with the mock religion aspect (not that all the
      titles don't mean atleast something). We have to be
      weary of collecting titles for the sake of having more
      titles, but really, it's fun to have a string of
      random letters after your name that nobody else
      probably understands unless they can put the same
      letters after their name.

      >What is the �Druid Chronicler� magazine referred to
      >in DC(E) intro?

      The Druid Chronicles was a magazine Isaac put out in
      the late '70s. Copies are available as part of the
      magazine volume, and I think the Druid Chronicler
      sections are available through Mike's yahoo page.

      -Stephen




      __________________________________
      Yahoo! Messenger
      Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
      http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest
    • merlin_whitewolf
      Congratulations, Beth, on catching up! I m still working on it. Do any of you have update for the human mind? To make it go faster? (LOL) I m not too fast, but
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 1, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Congratulations, Beth, on catching up! I'm still working on it. Do
        any of you have update for the human mind? To make it go faster?
        (LOL) I'm not too fast, but I learn well.

        The questions here (Beth's) are ones I am having, too.
        Issac's view of non-paganism seems to be colored by his experiences
        (personal?). In re: rituals-- Ritual is common among humans and is
        found among any group. Cultures, societies, lodges, clubs,
        households, etc. as well as in religions. We even have personal
        rituals -some religious and some personal/societal related- and age
        related rituals.
        To narrow all that down to just the religious, any ritual may have
        power. It is the person(s) involvment in the ritual that opens the
        door to the expression of power within the ritual.
        As western organized religious ritual borrowed so much from western
        pagan ritual, to say that such rituals have no power is to say that
        those were ineffective before the monotheists began using them. (IMO)

        May You All Drink Deep of the Wisdom of the Old Ways,
        Myrddin


        --- In Reformed_Druid_Texts@yahoogroups.com, Beth Savage
        <bsavage@s...> wrote:
        > Woo! I'm caught up- now I can jump in and make all the comments I
        want!
        >
        > First, I have a confession to make. From things that people had
        told me
        > about RDNA prior to joining this list, I was under the impression
        that
        > the order was just a bunch of people who fooled around with
        paganism,
        > but didn't really do much of anything. Now I know better. The more
        I
        > read about the RDNA, the more impressed I am with the organization
        and
        > its members- especially the thoughtfulness that people have put
        (and
        > continue to put) into their writings. This is a group that I would
        be
        > proud to be a member of… and hey, that makes me a member!
        >
        > There isn't a 3rd degree anywhere near me, but I'm thinking about
        > traveling to do some research in the Carlton Archives (which I
        assume
        > are at Carlton, but may be with Mike, wherever he is). Maybe that
        that
        > point, I can attend a ritual.
        >
        > Comments on the lesson:
        >
        > I disagree with some of the things that Isaac said in his Epistles
        and
        > wonder if anyone else raised these issues at the time. Following
        are the
        > comments that I have the most problems with:
        >
        > a
        > Beth
      • Stephen Crimmins
        ... Not to support Isaac s view exactly, but I believe that somewhere or other he does say that the rituals of Christianity have lost their effectiveness. I
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 1, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          > As western organized religious ritual borrowed so
          > much from western
          > pagan ritual, to say that such rituals have no power
          > is to say that
          > those were ineffective before the monotheists began
          > using them. (IMO)

          Not to support Isaac's view exactly, but I believe
          that somewhere or other he does say that the rituals
          of Christianity have lost their effectiveness. I think
          that he thinks (thought?) that Christianity once had
          had effective rituals but as they became the more or
          less sole religion for Europe it was able to grow lax
          in its standards and the rituals lost their power.

          -Stephen

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com
        • Beth Savage
          ... Thanks. I think it s significant that people weren t objecting to his beliefs, but to the fact that he was trying to change the group into a pagan-only
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 1, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Stephen Crimmins wrote:

            > I don't think anybody ever went through Isaac's
            > Epistles with a red pen and marked the stuff they
            > didn't like. I think they that the Druids on the other
            > side of the line generally found that Isaac's letters
            > didn't jive with their type of Druidism.

            Thanks. I think it's significant that people weren't objecting to his
            beliefs, but to the fact that he was trying to change the group into a
            pagan-only one. That's an amazingly tolerant attitude- was tolerance a
            major focus in the RDNA? Was it a function of the times? Part of the
            Carlton experience- was it a school that put a lot of emphasis on tolerance?

            > But, as far as dieties in specific goes I've never
            > been clear what exactly Isaac meant, how real his
            > dieties are. Certainly their realer (supposed to be if
            > they exist) than other peoples. I've generally taken
            > "on some level" to be a wide acceptance of what those
            > God's may be, many of the points you raise could still
            > point to Gods on some level (though I'm not sure that
            > Bonewits would be as happy with it).

            I wonder if his "on some level" was an attempt to make his proposal
            acceptable to as many pagans as possible. Seems like more religious
            tolerance- or, if you'd like to be more cynical, a calculated attempt to
            get more votes. Any thoughts on which is more likely?

            Thanks for the DDT and DAL. Will we be later talking about Hu Gaddwern
            and why he's the new patron? If not, Stephen, could you talk about that?

            > The Druid Chronicles was a magazine Isaac put out in
            > the late '70s. Copies are available as part of the
            > magazine volume, and I think the Druid Chronicler
            > sections are available through Mike's yahoo page.

            Ah, thanks. I found them. Yea! More documents!

            Beth
          • Beth Savage
            ... Yes, he did say that, but I still disagree with his statement. Just like with pagan rituals, what you put into a ritual determines what you ll get out of
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 1, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Stephen Crimmins wrote:

              > Not to support Isaac's view exactly, but I believe
              > that somewhere or other he does say that the rituals
              > of Christianity have lost their effectiveness. I think
              > that he thinks (thought?) that Christianity once had
              > had effective rituals but as they became the more or
              > less sole religion for Europe it was able to grow lax
              > in its standards and the rituals lost their power.

              Yes, he did say that, but I still disagree with his statement. Just like
              with pagan rituals, what you put into a ritual determines what you'll
              get out of it. I challenge Isaac or anyone else to attend a Holiness
              church service (which involves handling snakes), a Benny Hinn
              faith-healing, or (if you don't mind me using non-religious rituals)
              Mardi Gras, Wrestlemania, or a sporting event with a rabid fan. Those
              are obvious displays, of course, quieter ones are harder to see (such as
              doing the Stations of the Cross), but no less powerful to the right
              people.

              Beth
            • Norm Nelson
              Tolerance was purposely built into RDNA. Carleton was tolerant, but remember the original purpose of RDNA. We were protesting required attendance at
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 3, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                "Tolerance" was purposely built into RDNA.  Carleton was tolerant, but remember the original purpose of RDNA.  We were protesting required attendance at religious services.  By setting up an alternative religious service, we were mocking the requirement.  We simply thought compulsory religion was a disservice to religion, by turning people off to it. If we could make the administration see how ridiculous the requirement was, maybe they'd drop it. [It took 13.5 months, but it worked!]
                    If RDNA were going to be acceptable to lots of people, we couldn't claim any kind of exclusivity.  We intentionally decided and proclaimed that RDNA was complementary or supplementary to any other faith.  You could still be a good Christian or Jew or Muslim [I don't think we had any on campus, but....] (or atheist!) and attend RDNA services.  No-one was asked to give up another faith to become a Druid; that would have contradicted what we were trying to do with our protest!
                    There were, as I recall through 40 years of foggy memory, two problems with Isaac.  First, he wanted to make Druidism much more structured than was acceptable to most of us at the time.  Secondly, as noted below, he was very much into paganism, and those of us who weren't didn't want to see RDNA changed into something that we could not longer accept as compatible with other faiths.  A "pagan only" RDNA was so far from the conception of RDNA that it was unacceptable.
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Beth Savage [mailto:bsavage@...]
                Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 7:13 PM
                To: Reformed_Druid_Texts@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Reformed_Druid_Texts] Step 8: The Branching of the Reform – Middle Isaac Affair

                Stephen Crimmins wrote:

                > I don't think anybody ever went through Isaac's
                > Epistles with a red pen and marked the stuff they
                > didn't like. I think they that the Druids on the other
                > side of the line generally found that Isaac's letters
                > didn't jive with their type of Druidism.

                Thanks. I think it's significant that people weren't objecting to his
                beliefs, but to the fact that he was trying to change the group into a
                pagan-only one. That's an amazingly tolerant attitude- was tolerance a
                major focus in the RDNA? Was it a function of the times? Part of the
                Carlton experience- was it a school that put a lot of emphasis on tolerance?

                > But, as far as dieties in specific goes I've never
                > been clear what exactly Isaac meant, how real his
                > dieties are. Certainly their realer (supposed to be if
                > they exist) than other peoples. I've generally taken
                > "on some level" to be a wide acceptance of what those
                > God's may be, many of the points you raise could still
                > point to Gods on some level (though I'm not sure that
                > Bonewits would be as happy with it).

                I wonder if his "on some level" was an attempt to make his proposal
                acceptable to as many pagans as possible. Seems like more religious
                tolerance- or, if you'd like to be more cynical, a calculated attempt to
                get more votes. Any thoughts on which is more likely?

                Thanks for the DDT and DAL. Will we be later talking about Hu Gaddwern
                and why he's the new patron?  If not, Stephen, could you talk about that?

                > The Druid Chronicles was a magazine Isaac put out in
                > the late '70s. Copies are available as part of the
                > magazine volume, and I think the Druid Chronicler
                > sections are available through Mike's yahoo page.

                Ah, thanks. I found them. Yea! More documents!

                Beth


              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.