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Joe Oliver's middle name- Nathan?

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  • Andrew Taylor
    Hi all, During the recent Joe Oliver discussion I was looking at his 09-12-1918 draft registration on the Dr. Jazz website,
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 1, 2014
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      Hi all,
      During the recent Joe Oliver discussion I was looking at his 09-12-1918 draft registration on the Dr. Jazz website,
      http://www.doctorjazz.co.uk/jnodraftf.jpg.

      It has Oliver's middle name written twice, and to me the top one looks like "Nathram" and the bottom one like "Nathran."  Is it possible that Oliver's middle name was one of those rather than "Nathan," which I have read various places?
      I've read elsewhere that Oliver's middle name was "Nathan," but I think I see an "r" in both cases.  I don't know if Oliver could read or write himself, and this was clearly written by the "Registrar" May Reidy as it matches her signature.  So it could just be her misunderstanding him.

      I don't know of other sources for his middle name.
      This may be nothing more than a cursive handwriting issue, but see what you think.

      Regards, Andrew

      p.s. -

      Some of you might remember the question of "Daniel" as Armstrong's middle name, because no middle name is shown on his birth certificate.  A sentence from My Life in New Orleans reads "If you ever tasted my mother Mayann's jumbalaya and did not lick your fingers my name is not Louis Satchmo Daniel Armstrong."
      -- 
      Andrew Taylor, MLS
      Associate Curator, Visual Resources
      Department of Art History, Rice University
      713-348-4836
      https://twitter.com/agrahamt
    • Kim Altsund
      Hi. Oliver´s father was called Nathan: Source: Jazz Puzzles vol 1 (Vernhettes/Lindström) Jazz´edit (www.jazzedit.org). The book is a must for anyone
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 2, 2014
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        Hi.  Oliver´s father was called Nathan: Source:  Jazz Puzzles vol 1 (Vernhettes/Lindström) Jazz´edit (www.jazzedit.org). The book is a must for anyone interested in Early Jazz. It contains a thorough essay on Oliver´s early life up to Chicago 1923  /Kim

        On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 10:48:14 -0500
        "Andrew Taylor agt2@... [RedHotJazz]" wrote:
        > Hi all,
        > During the recent Joe Oliver discussion I was looking at
        >his 09-12-1918 draft registration on the Dr. Jazz
        >website,
        > http://www.doctorjazz.co.uk/jnodraftf.jpg.
        >
        > It has Oliver's middle name written twice, and to me the
        >top one looks like "Nathram" and the bottom
        one like
        >"Nathran." Is it possible that Oliver's middle name was
        >one of those rather than "Nathan,"
        which I have read
        >various places?
        > I've read elsewhere that Oliver's middle name was
        >"Nathan,"
        but I think I see an "r" in both cases. I
        >don't know if Oliver could read or write himself, and
        >this
        was clearly written by the "Registrar" May Reidy as
        >it matches her signature. So it could just be her
        >misunderstanding him.
        >
        > I don't know of other sources for his middle name.
        > This may be
        nothing more than a cursive handwriting
        >issue, but see what you think.
        >
        > Regards, Andrew
        >
        > p.s. -
        > Some of you might remember the question of "Daniel" as
        >Armstrong's middle name, because
        no middle name is shown
        >on his birth certificate. A sentence from My Life in New
        >Orleans
        >
        >reads "If you ever tasted my mother
        Mayann's jumbalaya
        >and did not lick your fingers my name is not Louis
        >Satchmo Daniel Armstrong."
        >
        > --
        > Andrew Taylor, MLS
        > Associate Curator, Visual Resources
        > Department of Art History,
        Rice University
        > 713-348-4836
        > https://twitter.com/agrahamt
        >

      • Andrew Taylor
        Thanks Kim, looks like an interesting book. I did notice that McCusker mentions in Creole Trombone that his father, Nathan Oliver, was a Baptist preacher so
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 2, 2014
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          Thanks Kim, looks like an interesting book.

          I did notice that McCusker mentions in Creole Trombone that "his father, Nathan Oliver, was a Baptist preacher" so that takes precedence over a census taker.  McCusker lists the source as the 4/22/1959 interview with Joe Oliver's widow, Stella.

          So, either a hearing, spelling or writing issue most likely!

          Regards, Andrew


          "In the 19th century, when the slave trade was in the process of being suppressed, there were a set of international courts established around the Atlantic world and captured slave vessels were brought into these ports and adjudicated by the courts," Eltis said.

          "The people on board those vessels had their information taken down in bound registers which have survived. And the most interesting thing about these bound registers is it provides information on the African name, which is actually quite rare in the history of the black Atlantic," he added.

          On 7/2/2014 7:03 AM, 'Kim Altsund' k.altsund@... [RedHotJazz] wrote:
           
          Hi.  Oliver´s father was called Nathan: Source:  Jazz Puzzles vol 1 (Vernhettes/Lindström) Jazz´edit (www.jazzedit.org). The book is a must for anyone interested in Early Jazz. It contains a thorough essay on Oliver´s early life up to Chicago 1923  /Kim

          On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 10:48:14 -0500
          "Andrew Taylor agt2@... [RedHotJazz]" wrote:
          > Hi all,
          > During the recent Joe Oliver discussion I was looking at
          >his 09-12-1918 draft registration on the Dr. Jazz
          >website,
          > http://www.doctorjazz.co.uk/jnodraftf.jpg.
          >
          > It has Oliver's middle name written twice, and to me the
          >top one looks like "Nathram" and the bottom one like
          >"Nathran." Is it possible that Oliver's middle name was
          >one of those rather than "Nathan," which I have read
          >various places?
          > I've read elsewhere that Oliver's middle name was
          >"Nathan," but I think I see an "r" in both cases. I
          >don't know if Oliver could read or write himself, and
          >this was clearly written by the "Registrar" May Reidy as
          >it matches her signature. So it could just be her
          >misunderstanding him.
          >
          > I don't know of other sources for his middle name.
          > This may be nothing more than a cursive handwriting
          >issue, but see what you think.
          >
          > Regards, Andrew
          >
          > p.s. -
          > Some of you might remember the question of "Daniel" as
          >Armstrong's middle name, because no middle name is shown
          >on his birth certificate. A sentence from My Life in New
          >Orleans
          >
          >reads "If you ever tasted my mother Mayann's jumbalaya
          >and did not lick your fingers my name is not Louis
          >Satchmo Daniel Armstrong."
          >
          > --
          > Andrew Taylor, MLS
          > Associate Curator, Visual Resources
          > Department of Art History, Rice University
          > 713-348-4836
          > https://twitter.com/agrahamt
          >



          -- 
          Andrew Taylor, MLS
          Associate Curator, Visual Resources
          Department of Art History, Rice University
          713-348-4836
          https://twitter.com/agrahamt
        • John McCusker
          Stella said his father was named Henry if I recall correctly . Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 2, 2014
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            Stella said his father was named Henry if I recall correctly .

            Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


            From: Andrew Taylor agt2@... [RedHotJazz] <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>;
            To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>;
            Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Joe Oliver's middle name- Nathan?
            Sent: Wed, Jul 2, 2014 2:24:56 PM

             

            Thanks Kim, looks like an interesting book.

            I did notice that McCusker mentions in Creole Trombone that "his father, Nathan Oliver, was a Baptist preacher" so that takes precedence over a census taker.  McCusker lists the source as the 4/22/1959 interview with Joe Oliver's widow, Stella.

            So, either a hearing, spelling or writing issue most likely!

            Regards, Andrew


            "In the 19th century, when the slave trade was in the process of being suppressed, there were a set of international courts established around the Atlantic world and captured slave vessels were brought into these ports and adjudicated by the courts," Eltis said.

            "The people on board those vessels had their information taken down in bound registers which have survived. And the most interesting thing about these bound registers is it provides information on the African name, which is actually quite rare in the history of the black Atlantic," he added.

            On 7/2/2014 7:03 AM, 'Kim Altsund' k.altsund@... [RedHotJazz] wrote:
             
            Hi.  Oliver´s father was called Nathan: Source:  Jazz Puzzles vol 1 (Vernhettes/Lindström) Jazz´edit (www.jazzedit.org). The book is a must for anyone interested in Early Jazz. It contains a thorough essay on Oliver´s early life up to Chicago 1923  /Kim

            On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 10:48:14 -0500
            "Andrew Taylor agt2@... [RedHotJazz]" wrote:
            > Hi all,
            > During the recent Joe Oliver discussion I was looking at
            >his 09-12-1918 draft registration on the Dr. Jazz
            >website,
            > http://www.doctorjazz.co.uk/jnodraftf.jpg.
            >
            > It has Oliver's middle name written twice, and to me the
            >top one looks like "Nathram" and the bottom one like
            >"Nathran." Is it possible that Oliver's middle name was
            >one of those rather than "Nathan," which I have read
            >various places?
            > I've read elsewhere that Oliver's middle name was
            >"Nathan," but I think I see an "r" in both cases. I
            >don't know if Oliver could read or write himself, and
            >this was clearly written by the "Registrar" May Reidy as
            >it matches her signature. So it could just be her
            >misunderstanding him.
            >
            > I don't know of other sources for his middle name.
            > This may be nothing more than a cursive handwriting
            >issue, but see what you think.
            >
            > Regards, Andrew
            >
            > p.s. -
            > Some of you might remember the question of "Daniel" as
            >Armstrong's middle name, because no middle name is shown
            >on his birth certificate. A sentence from My Life in New
            >Orleans
            >
            >reads "If you ever tasted my mother Mayann's jumbalaya
            >and did not lick your fingers my name is not Louis
            >Satchmo Daniel Armstrong."
            >
            > --
            > Andrew Taylor, MLS
            > Associate Curator, Visual Resources
            > Department of Art History, Rice University
            > 713-348-4836
            > https://twitter.com/agrahamt
            >



            -- 
            Andrew Taylor, MLS
            Associate Curator, Visual Resources
            Department of Art History, Rice University
            713-348-4836
            https://twitter.com/agrahamt
          • John McCusker
            Stella said his father was named Henry if I recall correctly . Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 2, 2014
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              Stella said his father was named Henry if I recall correctly .

              Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


              From: Andrew Taylor agt2@... [RedHotJazz] <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>;
              To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>;
              Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Joe Oliver's middle name- Nathan?
              Sent: Wed, Jul 2, 2014 2:24:56 PM

               

              Thanks Kim, looks like an interesting book.

              I did notice that McCusker mentions in Creole Trombone that "his father, Nathan Oliver, was a Baptist preacher" so that takes precedence over a census taker.  McCusker lists the source as the 4/22/1959 interview with Joe Oliver's widow, Stella.

              So, either a hearing, spelling or writing issue most likely!

              Regards, Andrew


              "In the 19th century, when the slave trade was in the process of being suppressed, there were a set of international courts established around the Atlantic world and captured slave vessels were brought into these ports and adjudicated by the courts," Eltis said.

              "The people on board those vessels had their information taken down in bound registers which have survived. And the most interesting thing about these bound registers is it provides information on the African name, which is actually quite rare in the history of the black Atlantic," he added.

              On 7/2/2014 7:03 AM, 'Kim Altsund' k.altsund@... [RedHotJazz] wrote:
               
              Hi.  Oliver´s father was called Nathan: Source:  Jazz Puzzles vol 1 (Vernhettes/Lindström) Jazz´edit (www.jazzedit.org). The book is a must for anyone interested in Early Jazz. It contains a thorough essay on Oliver´s early life up to Chicago 1923  /Kim

              On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 10:48:14 -0500
              "Andrew Taylor agt2@... [RedHotJazz]" wrote:
              > Hi all,
              > During the recent Joe Oliver discussion I was looking at
              >his 09-12-1918 draft registration on the Dr. Jazz
              >website,
              > http://www.doctorjazz.co.uk/jnodraftf.jpg.
              >
              > It has Oliver's middle name written twice, and to me the
              >top one looks like "Nathram" and the bottom one like
              >"Nathran." Is it possible that Oliver's middle name was
              >one of those rather than "Nathan," which I have read
              >various places?
              > I've read elsewhere that Oliver's middle name was
              >"Nathan," but I think I see an "r" in both cases. I
              >don't know if Oliver could read or write himself, and
              >this was clearly written by the "Registrar" May Reidy as
              >it matches her signature. So it could just be her
              >misunderstanding him.
              >
              > I don't know of other sources for his middle name.
              > This may be nothing more than a cursive handwriting
              >issue, but see what you think.
              >
              > Regards, Andrew
              >
              > p.s. -
              > Some of you might remember the question of "Daniel" as
              >Armstrong's middle name, because no middle name is shown
              >on his birth certificate. A sentence from My Life in New
              >Orleans
              >
              >reads "If you ever tasted my mother Mayann's jumbalaya
              >and did not lick your fingers my name is not Louis
              >Satchmo Daniel Armstrong."
              >
              > --
              > Andrew Taylor, MLS
              > Associate Curator, Visual Resources
              > Department of Art History, Rice University
              > 713-348-4836
              > https://twitter.com/agrahamt
              >



              -- 
              Andrew Taylor, MLS
              Associate Curator, Visual Resources
              Department of Art History, Rice University
              713-348-4836
              https://twitter.com/agrahamt
            • Andrew Taylor
              Sorry, John, for my incomplete quote from your book, I was looking for the endnote (which I also incompletely referenced, sigh). You wrote that His father,
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 2, 2014
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                Sorry, John, for my incomplete quote from your book, I was looking for the endnote (which I also incompletely referenced, sigh).

                You wrote that "His father, Nathan Oliver, was a Baptist preacher.  Stella Oliver said that Oliver's father was a preacher, but said his name was Henry." 

                Later in that endnote I incompletely referenced, you mention that Joe and Stella's marriage license with the Orleans parish has Joe's father listed as Nathan.

                Thanks, Andrew


                Not relevant to Oliver or Jazz (I think), but I'll include the article I unintentionally referenced in case the accidental excerpt intrigued anyone:
                http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/05/26/africa.slave.trade.database/

                "In the 19th century, when the slave trade was in the process of being suppressed, there were a set of international courts established around the Atlantic world and captured slave vessels were brought into these ports and adjudicated by the courts," Eltis said.

                "The people on board those vessels had their information taken down in bound registers which have survived. And the most interesting thing about these bound registers is it provides information on the African name, which is actually quite rare in the history of the black Atlantic," he added.

                from the database website's FAQ:

                Where do these data come from?

                Historical information in the African-Origins database comes from registers kept by the Havana, Cuba, and Freetown, Sierra Leone, Courts of Mixed (or Joint) Commission and by British Vice-Admiralty Courts and Liberated African Departments in Sierra Leone and St. Helena. The data describe individual Africans who were liberated from slaving vessels in the era of the suppression of the transatlantic slave trade. Personal names and in some cases place of origin was provided by the Africans themselves with the help of a translator. This information together with descriptions was intended to reduce the chances of re-enslavement. For fuller information see Richard Anderson, Alex Borucki, Daniel Domingues da Silva, David Eltis, Paul Lachance, Philip Misevich, Olatunji Ojo, “Using pre- Orthographic African Names to Identify the Origins of Captives in the Transatlantic Slave Trade: The Registers of Liberated Africans, 1808-1862” (forthcoming).

                What happened to the people in these records?

                Few of these Africans went back to their pre-enslavement existence. Those taken back to Africa were not returned to their place of origin, but were instead disembarked in areas unfamiliar to them, chiefly in the Sierra Leone region. Others landed on the island of St. Helena. Mortality rates both before and after detention of their slave vessel was high.

                Some of the detained slave vessels were conducted to ports in the Americas such as Havana, Cuba, or Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, where Courts of Mixed Commission were established. Almost all the Africans on board such vessels eventually became part of the black population of the Americas.

                http://www.african-origins.org/help/



                On 7/2/2014 9:24 AM, Andrew Taylor agt2@... [RedHotJazz] wrote:
                 

                Thanks Kim, looks like an interesting book.

                I did notice that McCusker mentions in Creole Trombone that "his father, Nathan Oliver, was a Baptist preacher" so that takes precedence over a census taker.  McCusker lists the source as the 4/22/1959 interview with Joe Oliver's widow, Stella.

                So, either a hearing, spelling or writing issue most likely!

                Regards, Andrew




                On 7/2/2014 7:03 AM, 'Kim Altsund' k.altsund@... [RedHotJazz] wrote:
                 
                Hi.  Oliver´s father was called Nathan: Source:  Jazz Puzzles vol 1 (Vernhettes/Lindström) Jazz´edit (www.jazzedit.org). The book is a must for anyone interested in Early Jazz. It contains a thorough essay on Oliver´s early life up to Chicago 1923  /Kim

                On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 10:48:14 -0500
                "Andrew Taylor agt2@... [RedHotJazz]" wrote:
                > Hi all,
                > During the recent Joe Oliver discussion I was looking at
                >his 09-12-1918 draft registration on the Dr. Jazz
                >website,
                > http://www.doctorjazz.co.uk/jnodraftf.jpg.
                >
                > It has Oliver's middle name written twice, and to me the
                >top one looks like "Nathram" and the bottom one like
                >"Nathran." Is it possible that Oliver's middle name was
                >one of those rather than "Nathan," which I have read
                >various places?
                > I've read elsewhere that Oliver's middle name was
                >"Nathan," but I think I see an "r" in both cases. I
                >don't know if Oliver could read or write himself, and
                >this was clearly written by the "Registrar" May Reidy as
                >it matches her signature. So it could just be her
                >misunderstanding him.
                >
                > I don't know of other sources for his middle name.
                > This may be nothing more than a cursive handwriting
                >issue, but see what you think.
                >
                > Regards, Andrew
                >
                > p.s. -
                > Some of you might remember the question of "Daniel" as
                >Armstrong's middle name, because no middle name is shown
                >on his birth certificate. A sentence from My Life in New
                >Orleans
                >
                >reads "If you ever tasted my mother Mayann's jumbalaya
                >and did not lick your fingers my name is not Louis
                >Satchmo Daniel Armstrong."
                >
                > --
                > Andrew Taylor, MLS
                > Associate Curator, Visual Resources
                > Department of Art History, Rice University
                > 713-348-4836
                > https://twitter.com/agrahamt
                >



                -- 
                Andrew Taylor, MLS
                Associate Curator, Visual Resources
                Department of Art History, Rice University
                713-348-4836
                https://twitter.com/agrahamt


                -- 
                Andrew Taylor, MLS
                Associate Curator, Visual Resources
                Department of Art History, Rice University
                713-348-4836
                https://twitter.com/agrahamt
              • PETER GERLER
                Well, a few points on all of this (Andrew--many thanks for the CNN piece--I look forward to reading): In general, Stella s testimony has holes. For example,
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 2, 2014
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                  Well, a few points on all of this (Andrew--many thanks for the CNN piece--I look forward to reading):

                  • In general, Stella's testimony has holes. For example, the Hogan Jazz Archive oral history says that "Stella knew Joe for four or five years before they got married (1911), and Joe had been in New Orleans several years before that; Joe's mother had died, and Joe had come to New Orleans after she died, when he was still a boy." However, the 1900 NOLA census shows Joe living on Nashville Street as the "son" of "Jennie Jones." That would be fine--if she weren't dead. (BTW the overwhelming but not conclusive evidence is that Joe would have "come to New Orleans" from Abend/Donaldsonville. We know for a fact that Stella did come from D'ville.)

                  Another eg of Stella's "holes" comes from Dan Vernhettes, who notes that Stella said both that Joe "was 17 years old" (c. 1902) and that she met him four years before they got married (c. 1907)

                  • Stella does say, "Joe's father, Henry, was a minister; his mother was named Virginia; they both had died before Stella met Joe." So far I find no pertinent evidence for a "Henry"--except a Louisiana 1870 census record listing "Henry Davis" (b. 1820) living in East Baton Rouge with Fannie Davis (age 47) and Virginia Davis (age 16), two other teenage Davises and an Elizabeth Berry, age 65. It doesn't really match, but from family sources I've found that Davis was, at one time, Virginia (Jennie or Ginnie) Oliver's surname. And the above-mentioned 1900 census lists a Fannie Davis as Jennie Jones' daughter. I've been told there were a good many Davises around Donaldsonville back then.
                  • We don't know how many fathers were involved in Jennie Jones' 15 children. I need to dig on this, but it seems there were at least three fathers for the final 6 children. In any case, "Nathan" Oliver may have been a "back door man," never to be seen again--a circuit preacher. The only substantive listing I have is a Nathan Oliver listed in the 1900 LA census for DeSoto Parish (northwest corner of the state)--age 48, listed as a "preacher," and married. He was also listed in DeSoto 20 years earlier, unmarried, also a minister. I also have "Nathan Oliver" listed in the 1900 LA census, New Orleans Ward 5, born 1846, living with wife "Clara," married for 15 years. Occupation: "Coal hauler."

                  • If he was a back door man, then Joe's info on him might have been sketchy--hence "Nathran" as opp to "Nathan." Hence "Henry." Like so much of what Dan Vernhettes calls "Jazz Puzzles," we may never know. 

                  We do know, however, that on Joe & Stella's marriage application and license, his father's name appears as  "Nath...." (with the "an" or "ran" truncated by the clerk.) Only on the Draft registration do we see "Nathran." BTW, Joe Oliver not only could read and write, but he could type. So--I don't know why he wouldn't have caught the "Nathran" on the draft doc if it was wrong. Another mystery. (To paraphrase Dan: "History is Mystery.")

                  Onward and upward! (or downward)

                  PG
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