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Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Lucille Bogan & Charles Avery

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  • Howard Rye
    For what¹s it¹s worth, I am sure we can take it that there is more than one session here, and that therefore there is no reason that whatever evidence
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 26, 2013
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      For what¹s it¹s worth, I am sure we can take it that there is more than one
      session here, and that therefore there is no reason that whatever evidence
      someone may have had for Avery (and it probably goes back too far to find
      out) would apply to all the masters involved.


      on 26/01/2013 16:48, Uncle Dave at udtv@... wrote:

      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Thank you Bob and Howard for your comments, and I wanted to qualify that I'm
      > not trying to bust anyone's chops here. Avery, of course, only has one
      > surviving solo, "Dearborn Street Breakdown," but it's quite distinctive and I
      > was lurking around in the accompaniments accredited to him out of interest and
      > stumbled upon these Bogan sides that do not fit his style.
      >
      > Bob wrote:
      >
      > Dave, the first thing to say is that you must be using an old edition of B&GR
      > - B&GR4 has the correct mx.
      >
      > Howard wrote:
      >
      > Be interested to know where else the ³EVERYWHERE² is because it is prima facie
      > proof of uncritical copying, which is of course
      > endemic in discography, but in this case mindless as the typo is so obvious.
      >
      >>>> >>>
      >
      > OK -- indeed, mine is BG&R3. Apologies to Howard as well. By "everywhere" I
      > mean only a few places I looked; actually the correct number is at least seen
      > in Ty Settlemaier's ODP and so it went into the Abrahms data correctly.
      >
      >>>> >>>
      >
      > Bob wrote:
      >
      > That said, I agree that the pianist is not Avery. I doubt that Lucille is the
      > player, because of timing issues, although her son and his best friend both
      > said she could play piano - they just don't sound self-accompanied. One
      > "Smith" shares composer credits on "Black Angel", which may be a hint.
      >
      > However, there is another issue. To my ears, the pianist on "Whiskey Selling
      > Woman" (C-5548) is different again - great left hand, interesting and variable
      > right, far more swinging than either Avery or the later pianist. If it *is*
      > Avery, he's playing way above himself! I'm tempted to say Bill O'Bryant, who
      > recorded an excellent title with Tampa Red at about this time, but there are
      > differences. Nevertheless, it is a forward-thinking accompaniment, hinting at
      > what Maceo would later do.
      >
      >>>> >>>
      >
      > While I don't find the playing on "Whiskey Selling Woman" inconsistent with
      > Avery -- the rising, locked hand tremolandi figure in this accompaniment also
      > appears, in part, in "Dirty Treatin' Blues" -- I agree that it is an
      > astonishing performance. Each verse is treated like a variation on its own,
      > with an evolutionary sense of brilliance throughout. I've not yet heard the
      > Bill O'Bryant side, but I will investigate it, and thanks for the suggestion.
      >
      > I note in my BG&R3 that the side on which O'Bryant plays is listed as "C-5563
      > 1/2", so that takes me back to the discographical end of things.
      >
      > Howard wrote:
      >
      > I think you will listen in vain for an alternative take on Roots RL317. They
      > were working from tapes not 78s and simply and carelessly quoted the first
      > matrix number they came to, 5347, rather than the correct 5547, or maybe it's
      > just a typo, and they always really knew they were issuing 5547 (This was
      > checked aurally long ago and there is a note to this effect in B&GR4)
      >
      >>>> >>>
      >
      > Thanks Howard; now I know not to look for that. Here, in summary form, is the
      > data that Laird gathers for the matrix range we are discussing. At the time,
      > Brunswick was also cutting sessions for a label called Majestic which was a
      > product of the Grigsby-Grunow Radio Corp. Though through acquisition the
      > "Majestic" name did end up used in the 1940s for a commercial label, there is
      > no relationship between this one and the later one. 1929-31 Majestic was a
      > personal label like Gennett's "Personal." Hardly any of these records have
      > been found, but the empty stock numbers figure significantly in the 1930
      > Brunswick ledger. Client work for the National Radio Advertising Co. also has
      > a presence in the Brunswick book of 1930.
      >
      > C5312-C5349 all personal recordings, unknown (Majestic?)
      > this would include C5347-C5349 credited to Bogan and dated "ca. February 1,
      > 1930"; suggesting as you have that the session does not exist.
      > C5350-C5352 Ben Bernie
      > C5353 Freddie "Redd" Nicholson
      > C5354 Charles Avery
      > C5355-C5357 Freddie "Redd" Nicholson & J.[H. "Freddie"] Shayne
      >
      > C5540-C5546 all personal recordings, unknown (Majestic?)
      > C5547-C5550 Lucille Bogan & Charles Avery
      > C5551-C5552 Willie Harris
      > XC5553-XC5554 Quin A. Ryan (Majestic, from dubbed masters)
      > C5555-C5557 No details
      > C5558-C5559 Bradley Kincaid
      > C5560-C5561 Freddie "Redd" Nicholson & Charles Avery
      > C5562-C5563 Lucille Bogan & Charles Avery
      > C5563 1/2 Tampa Red vocal with guitar
      > C5564 Tampa Red vocal with guitar & piano
      > C5565-C5575 No details
      > XC5576-XC5577 Quin A. Ryan (different dub of XC5553-XC5554)
      > C5578-C5579 Tampa Red & Georgia Tom
      >
      > C6843-C6844 No details
      > C6845-C6848 Lucille Bogan
      > C6849-C6850 Kansas City Kitty & Georgia Tom
      > C6851-C6852 No details
      > C6853-C6856 Tampa Red & Georgia Tom
      > C6857 No details
      > C6858-C6859 Tampa Red & Georgia Tom
      > C6860-C6864 No details (not used?)
      > C6865-C6876 Bradley Kincaid, recorded in 1931 and not issued on Brunswick
      >
      > Note that O'Bryant is mentioned for C5563 1/2, whereas C5564 is shown as the
      > side that has the piano. This is an error, but I note that O'Bryant's credit
      > is carried only on the label copy and may not have noted in the log that Ross
      > was reading.
      >
      > David N. Lewis
      > Lebanon, OH
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >

      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      howard@...
      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




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    • David Brown
      Arodin was not passing. Albert Haim produced definitive info in post 6 May 2006. Search the forum archive with arodin s ancestry result no 11 page 2
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 28, 2013
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        Arodin was not passing.

        Albert Haim produced definitive info in post 6 May 2006.

        Search the forum archive with 'arodin's ancestry ' result no 11 page 2
        archive no 2625.

        We had long discussion Willie Joseph 2009.



        Dave
      • warrington1@btinternet.com
        Thanks for pointing me towards Whiskey Selling Woman. I have enjoyed Lucille Bogan s records for many years without coming across this one. How strange given
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 3, 2013
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          Thanks for pointing me towards Whiskey Selling Woman. I have enjoyed Lucille Bogan's records for many years without coming across this one. How strange given its quality that it doesn't appear on many compilations of her work (or other compilations for that matter). The phrase (Bob's I think) that meant I HAD to seek it out was this one: "Each verse is treated like a variation on its own, with an evolutionary sense of brilliance throughout." Well put! It made me think of the really accomplished accompanists - Blind Blake's guitar backing to his own Police Dog Blues, for instance, where each instrumental break between his singing is unique. But it also made me go to my LP collection to find a track I had had similar thoughts about when I first heard it many years ago: Irene's Bakershop Blues by Wiley and Wiley [Irene and Arnold]. Arnold Wiley does similarly inventive things as he accompanies each verse with a new variation. Thanks, RedHotJazz.
          Phil Warrington
        • Andrew Homzy
          Hello, I d like to contact Mike Meddings. If you have his email, please send it off-list. Cheers, Andrew
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 3, 2013
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            Hello,

            I'd like to contact Mike Meddings.

            If you have his email, please send it off-list.

            Cheers,

            Andrew
          • ROBERT R. CALDER
            For new every chorus in a blues/ barrelhouse accompaniment try Robert McCoy accompanying Peanut the Kidnapper c. 1937. I don t have the details to hand, but
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 4, 2013
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              For new every chorus in a blues/ barrelhouse accompaniment
              try Robert McCoy accompanying "Peanut the Kidnapper" c. 1937.

              I don't have the details to hand, but the accompaniment is startling resourceful.

              I have seen reviews in which Delmark's CD of McCoy material was mis-described as a combination of the two LPs recorded by the enthusiast Pat Cather in the 1960s, when he had found McCoy.
              Actually it's only the first of the LPs, with additional material from even later. Wonderful performer, of an Alabama piano school between Jabo Williams and Walter Roland, whose style he echoes on another pre-war recording.  His recorded connection with Ms. Bogan, who achieved a startling stridency by singing fractionally off the note, seems to have been confined to playing piano on sides by a band under her name.

              Alas no return for Charles Avery!

              Robert R. Calder

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