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Re: [RedHotJazz] Lucille Bogan & Charles Avery

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  • Howard Rye
    I should perhaps also have said that B&GR4 lists all the intervening matrices in its session note: C-5551/2 by Willie Harris C-5553-59 untraced at that point
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 26, 2013
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      I should perhaps also have said that B&GR4 lists all the intervening
      matrices in its session note:
      C-5551/2 by Willie Harris
      C-5553-59 untraced at that point
      C-5560/61 by Freddie Nicholson (yet another typo has these as 5561/62, but
      that has been corrected in the amendment service, and is correct at
      Nickerson who is also given with accompaniment by Charels Avery.)

      I don¹t have Laird to hand so don¹t know whether he has traced C-5553-9, but
      no pretence is made that the Bogan¹s are from the same session or that they
      are not from the same session because in the absence of file information, no
      one actually knows, unless Laird has some file data which has not been
      available to other discographers. As far as B&GR is concerned, unless an
      exact date is given with the day of the week, recording dates are no more
      than educated guesses and must be interpreted by the reader on the basis of
      the evidence given.

      The naming of Avery for Nickerson also goes back to B&GR1. There is no
      personnel in Index to Jazz.


      on 26/01/2013 07:09, Uncle Dave at udtv@... wrote:

      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I was checking into the Charles Avery-accompanied Lucille Bogan records. The
      > Godrich and Dixon data on these is FUBAR'ed: the right mx. on "Alley Boogie"
      > which is C-5563; G&D lists it as "C-6653" and that false number persists
      > EVERYWHERE. Ross Laird's "Brunswick Records: A Discography of Recordings
      > 1916-1931 v3. Chicago and Regional Sessions" provides the right matrix and
      > clears up a lot of the errors relating to these dates.
      >
      > Charles Avery has a very recognizable style within barrelhouse piano; it is
      > sweeping, gracious and betrays at the back of it a hint of what may have been
      > some measure of formal training. And I agree that it is Avery on the March
      > 1930 Bogans, at least C-5547 through C-5550. But as to C-5562, C-5563 and the
      > December session consisting of C-6845 through C-6848, I think these are all
      > the same pianist, and it's not Charles Avery.
      >
      > Max Haymes, on a website dated 2001, suggest that C-6847 is either "Eddie
      > Miller or prob. Frank 'Springback' James." I don't know where he is redacting
      > that from or if he came up with the attribution on his own, but I don't agree
      > with it. I'm pretty certain that all of these accompaniments are supplied by
      > Lucille Bogan herself. The playing is decent, but not typically the work of a
      > professional accompanist. Bogan was an accomplished songwriter and probably
      > could play well enough herself to demonstrate her songs to better players or
      > to handle her own accompaniments in situations where she didn't have anyone to
      > back her. To my ears, that's what's going on -- it is the elementary playing
      > of a singer following along with her own vocal line, not of a professional
      > pianist hired to accompany a well-known singer like Bogan. There is a short
      > bar -- actually two bars that
      > have a short beat between them, I'm not sure where yet -- which occurs in
      > C-5563 and in one of the accompaniments in the C-6845 to 48 group. It's
      > exactly the same figure in both, and I'm pretty sure Avery would not have
      > clipped off the beat as it is an amateurish feature alien to his basic style.
      >
      > Laird's work establishes that C-5562 and C-5563 are from a wholly seperate
      > occasion as C-5547 through C-5550. G&D makes this look as though all of these
      > masters belong to the same session, but the Laird discography shows that quite
      > a bit went on between C-5550 and C-5562, including several whole sessions
      > unrelated to Bogan.
      >
      > Has anyone a perspective on this? The full on Brunswick ledger stops just
      > before this period commences, and the only register extant for 1930-31
      > Brunswick are a couple of loose, barely filled in sheets. I feel that by
      > adding the word "unknown" to the descriptor "vocal with piano" we may have
      > missed out on what that information was trying to tell us?
      >
      > Agree? Disagree? All of these except "Dirty Treatin' Blues" may be found on
      > Lucille Bogan's page on redhotjazz.com
      >
      > And if anyone has the Roots LP RL317 ("Lucille Bogan 1930-1935") I'f love to
      > hear the alternate of "My Georgia Grind."
      >
      > thanks,
      >
      > Uncle Dave Lewis
      > Lebanon, OH
      >
      > Godrich & Dixon pp.98-99
      >
      > [LUCILLE BOGAN]
      >
      > Acc. unknown, p.
      > Chicago c. 1 February 1930
      > C-5547- My Georgia Grind Br unissued, Roots RL317 (LP)
      > C-5548- Whiskey Selling WOman Br unissued
      > C-5549- They Ain't Walking No More Br unissued
      >
      > Acc. Charles Avery, p.
      > Chicago late March 1930
      > C-5547- My Georgia Grind Br 7145
      > C-5548- Whiskey Selling WOman Br 7145
      > C-5549- They Ain't Walking No More Br 7163
      > C-5550- Dirty Treatin' Blues Br 7163
      > C-5562-A Sloppy Drunk Blues Br 7210, Ba 32390, Me M12484, Or 8122, Pe 198, Ro
      > 5122
      > C-6653-A Alley Boogie Br 7210, Ba 32390, Me M12484, Or 8122, Pe 198, Ro 5122
      >
      > Banner, Melotone, Oriole, Perfect, and Romeo issues as by Bessie Jackson.
      >
      > Acc. unknown, p.
      > Chicago c. mid-December 1930
      > C-6845- Crawlin' Lizard Blues Br 7193
      > C-6846- Struttin' My Stuff Br 7193
      > C-6847-A Black Angel Blues Br 7186, Ba 32389, Or 8121, Pe 197, Ro 5121
      > C-6848-A Tricks Ain't Walking No More Br 7186, Ba 32389, Or 8121, Pe 197, Ro
      > 5121
      > Banner, Melotone, Oriole, Perfect, and Romeo issues as by Bessie Jackson.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >

      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      howard@...
      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Uncle Dave
      Thank you Bob and Howard for your comments, and I wanted to qualify that I m not trying to bust anyone s chops here. Avery, of course, only has one surviving
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 26, 2013
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        Thank you Bob and Howard for your comments, and I wanted to qualify that I'm not trying to bust anyone's chops here. Avery, of course, only has one surviving solo, "Dearborn Street Breakdown," but it's quite distinctive and I was lurking around in the accompaniments accredited to him out of interest and stumbled upon these Bogan sides that do not fit his style.

        Bob wrote:

        Dave, the first thing to say is that you must be using an old edition of B&GR - B&GR4 has the correct mx.

        Howard wrote:

        Be interested to know where else the ³EVERYWHERE² is because it is prima facie proof of uncritical copying, which is of course
        endemic in discography, but in this case mindless as the typo is so obvious.

        >>>

        OK -- indeed, mine is BG&R3. Apologies to Howard as well. By "everywhere" I mean only a few places I looked; actually the correct number is at least seen in Ty Settlemaier's ODP and so it went into the Abrahms data correctly.

        >>>

        Bob wrote:

        That said, I agree that the pianist is not Avery. I doubt that Lucille is the player, because of timing issues, although her son and his best friend both said she could play piano - they just don't sound self-accompanied. One "Smith" shares composer credits on "Black Angel", which may be a hint.

        However, there is another issue. To my ears, the pianist on "Whiskey Selling Woman" (C-5548) is different again - great left hand, interesting and variable right, far more swinging than either Avery or the later pianist. If it *is* Avery, he's playing way above himself! I'm tempted to say Bill O'Bryant, who recorded an excellent title with Tampa Red at about this time, but there are differences. Nevertheless, it is a forward-thinking accompaniment, hinting at what Maceo would later do.

        >>>

        While I don't find the playing on "Whiskey Selling Woman" inconsistent with Avery -- the rising, locked hand tremolandi figure in this accompaniment also appears, in part, in "Dirty Treatin' Blues" -- I agree that it is an astonishing performance. Each verse is treated like a variation on its own, with an evolutionary sense of brilliance throughout. I've not yet heard the Bill O'Bryant side, but I will investigate it, and thanks for the suggestion.

        I note in my BG&R3 that the side on which O'Bryant plays is listed as "C-5563 1/2", so that takes me back to the discographical end of things.

        Howard wrote:

        I think you will listen in vain for an alternative take on Roots RL317. They were working from tapes not 78s and simply and carelessly quoted the first matrix number they came to, 5347, rather than the correct 5547, or maybe it's just a typo, and they always really knew they were issuing 5547 (This was checked aurally long ago and there is a note to this effect in B&GR4)

        >>>

        Thanks Howard; now I know not to look for that. Here, in summary form, is the data that Laird gathers for the matrix range we are discussing. At the time, Brunswick was also cutting sessions for a label called Majestic which was a product of the Grigsby-Grunow Radio Corp. Though through acquisition the "Majestic" name did end up used in the 1940s for a commercial label, there is no relationship between this one and the later one. 1929-31 Majestic was a personal label like Gennett's "Personal." Hardly any of these records have been found, but the empty stock numbers figure significantly in the 1930 Brunswick ledger. Client work for the National Radio Advertising Co. also has a presence in the Brunswick book of 1930.

        C5312-C5349 all personal recordings, unknown (Majestic?)
        this would include C5347-C5349 credited to Bogan and dated "ca. February 1, 1930"; suggesting as you have that the session does not exist.
        C5350-C5352 Ben Bernie
        C5353 Freddie "Redd" Nicholson
        C5354 Charles Avery
        C5355-C5357 Freddie "Redd" Nicholson & J.[H. "Freddie"] Shayne

        C5540-C5546 all personal recordings, unknown (Majestic?)
        C5547-C5550 Lucille Bogan & Charles Avery
        C5551-C5552 Willie Harris
        XC5553-XC5554 Quin A. Ryan (Majestic, from dubbed masters)
        C5555-C5557 No details
        C5558-C5559 Bradley Kincaid
        C5560-C5561 Freddie "Redd" Nicholson & Charles Avery
        C5562-C5563 Lucille Bogan & Charles Avery
        C5563 1/2 Tampa Red vocal with guitar
        C5564 Tampa Red vocal with guitar & piano
        C5565-C5575 No details
        XC5576-XC5577 Quin A. Ryan (different dub of XC5553-XC5554)
        C5578-C5579 Tampa Red & Georgia Tom

        C6843-C6844 No details
        C6845-C6848 Lucille Bogan
        C6849-C6850 Kansas City Kitty & Georgia Tom
        C6851-C6852 No details
        C6853-C6856 Tampa Red & Georgia Tom
        C6857 No details
        C6858-C6859 Tampa Red & Georgia Tom
        C6860-C6864 No details (not used?)
        C6865-C6876 Bradley Kincaid, recorded in 1931 and not issued on Brunswick

        Note that O'Bryant is mentioned for C5563 1/2, whereas C5564 is shown as the side that has the piano. This is an error, but I note that O'Bryant's credit is carried only on the label copy and may not have noted in the log that Ross was reading.

        David N. Lewis
        Lebanon, OH
      • Howard Rye
        For what¹s it¹s worth, I am sure we can take it that there is more than one session here, and that therefore there is no reason that whatever evidence
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 26, 2013
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          For what¹s it¹s worth, I am sure we can take it that there is more than one
          session here, and that therefore there is no reason that whatever evidence
          someone may have had for Avery (and it probably goes back too far to find
          out) would apply to all the masters involved.


          on 26/01/2013 16:48, Uncle Dave at udtv@... wrote:

          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Thank you Bob and Howard for your comments, and I wanted to qualify that I'm
          > not trying to bust anyone's chops here. Avery, of course, only has one
          > surviving solo, "Dearborn Street Breakdown," but it's quite distinctive and I
          > was lurking around in the accompaniments accredited to him out of interest and
          > stumbled upon these Bogan sides that do not fit his style.
          >
          > Bob wrote:
          >
          > Dave, the first thing to say is that you must be using an old edition of B&GR
          > - B&GR4 has the correct mx.
          >
          > Howard wrote:
          >
          > Be interested to know where else the ³EVERYWHERE² is because it is prima facie
          > proof of uncritical copying, which is of course
          > endemic in discography, but in this case mindless as the typo is so obvious.
          >
          >>>> >>>
          >
          > OK -- indeed, mine is BG&R3. Apologies to Howard as well. By "everywhere" I
          > mean only a few places I looked; actually the correct number is at least seen
          > in Ty Settlemaier's ODP and so it went into the Abrahms data correctly.
          >
          >>>> >>>
          >
          > Bob wrote:
          >
          > That said, I agree that the pianist is not Avery. I doubt that Lucille is the
          > player, because of timing issues, although her son and his best friend both
          > said she could play piano - they just don't sound self-accompanied. One
          > "Smith" shares composer credits on "Black Angel", which may be a hint.
          >
          > However, there is another issue. To my ears, the pianist on "Whiskey Selling
          > Woman" (C-5548) is different again - great left hand, interesting and variable
          > right, far more swinging than either Avery or the later pianist. If it *is*
          > Avery, he's playing way above himself! I'm tempted to say Bill O'Bryant, who
          > recorded an excellent title with Tampa Red at about this time, but there are
          > differences. Nevertheless, it is a forward-thinking accompaniment, hinting at
          > what Maceo would later do.
          >
          >>>> >>>
          >
          > While I don't find the playing on "Whiskey Selling Woman" inconsistent with
          > Avery -- the rising, locked hand tremolandi figure in this accompaniment also
          > appears, in part, in "Dirty Treatin' Blues" -- I agree that it is an
          > astonishing performance. Each verse is treated like a variation on its own,
          > with an evolutionary sense of brilliance throughout. I've not yet heard the
          > Bill O'Bryant side, but I will investigate it, and thanks for the suggestion.
          >
          > I note in my BG&R3 that the side on which O'Bryant plays is listed as "C-5563
          > 1/2", so that takes me back to the discographical end of things.
          >
          > Howard wrote:
          >
          > I think you will listen in vain for an alternative take on Roots RL317. They
          > were working from tapes not 78s and simply and carelessly quoted the first
          > matrix number they came to, 5347, rather than the correct 5547, or maybe it's
          > just a typo, and they always really knew they were issuing 5547 (This was
          > checked aurally long ago and there is a note to this effect in B&GR4)
          >
          >>>> >>>
          >
          > Thanks Howard; now I know not to look for that. Here, in summary form, is the
          > data that Laird gathers for the matrix range we are discussing. At the time,
          > Brunswick was also cutting sessions for a label called Majestic which was a
          > product of the Grigsby-Grunow Radio Corp. Though through acquisition the
          > "Majestic" name did end up used in the 1940s for a commercial label, there is
          > no relationship between this one and the later one. 1929-31 Majestic was a
          > personal label like Gennett's "Personal." Hardly any of these records have
          > been found, but the empty stock numbers figure significantly in the 1930
          > Brunswick ledger. Client work for the National Radio Advertising Co. also has
          > a presence in the Brunswick book of 1930.
          >
          > C5312-C5349 all personal recordings, unknown (Majestic?)
          > this would include C5347-C5349 credited to Bogan and dated "ca. February 1,
          > 1930"; suggesting as you have that the session does not exist.
          > C5350-C5352 Ben Bernie
          > C5353 Freddie "Redd" Nicholson
          > C5354 Charles Avery
          > C5355-C5357 Freddie "Redd" Nicholson & J.[H. "Freddie"] Shayne
          >
          > C5540-C5546 all personal recordings, unknown (Majestic?)
          > C5547-C5550 Lucille Bogan & Charles Avery
          > C5551-C5552 Willie Harris
          > XC5553-XC5554 Quin A. Ryan (Majestic, from dubbed masters)
          > C5555-C5557 No details
          > C5558-C5559 Bradley Kincaid
          > C5560-C5561 Freddie "Redd" Nicholson & Charles Avery
          > C5562-C5563 Lucille Bogan & Charles Avery
          > C5563 1/2 Tampa Red vocal with guitar
          > C5564 Tampa Red vocal with guitar & piano
          > C5565-C5575 No details
          > XC5576-XC5577 Quin A. Ryan (different dub of XC5553-XC5554)
          > C5578-C5579 Tampa Red & Georgia Tom
          >
          > C6843-C6844 No details
          > C6845-C6848 Lucille Bogan
          > C6849-C6850 Kansas City Kitty & Georgia Tom
          > C6851-C6852 No details
          > C6853-C6856 Tampa Red & Georgia Tom
          > C6857 No details
          > C6858-C6859 Tampa Red & Georgia Tom
          > C6860-C6864 No details (not used?)
          > C6865-C6876 Bradley Kincaid, recorded in 1931 and not issued on Brunswick
          >
          > Note that O'Bryant is mentioned for C5563 1/2, whereas C5564 is shown as the
          > side that has the piano. This is an error, but I note that O'Bryant's credit
          > is carried only on the label copy and may not have noted in the log that Ross
          > was reading.
          >
          > David N. Lewis
          > Lebanon, OH
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
          howard@...
          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




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        • David Brown
          Arodin was not passing. Albert Haim produced definitive info in post 6 May 2006. Search the forum archive with arodin s ancestry result no 11 page 2
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 28, 2013
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            Arodin was not passing.

            Albert Haim produced definitive info in post 6 May 2006.

            Search the forum archive with 'arodin's ancestry ' result no 11 page 2
            archive no 2625.

            We had long discussion Willie Joseph 2009.



            Dave
          • warrington1@btinternet.com
            Thanks for pointing me towards Whiskey Selling Woman. I have enjoyed Lucille Bogan s records for many years without coming across this one. How strange given
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 3, 2013
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              Thanks for pointing me towards Whiskey Selling Woman. I have enjoyed Lucille Bogan's records for many years without coming across this one. How strange given its quality that it doesn't appear on many compilations of her work (or other compilations for that matter). The phrase (Bob's I think) that meant I HAD to seek it out was this one: "Each verse is treated like a variation on its own, with an evolutionary sense of brilliance throughout." Well put! It made me think of the really accomplished accompanists - Blind Blake's guitar backing to his own Police Dog Blues, for instance, where each instrumental break between his singing is unique. But it also made me go to my LP collection to find a track I had had similar thoughts about when I first heard it many years ago: Irene's Bakershop Blues by Wiley and Wiley [Irene and Arnold]. Arnold Wiley does similarly inventive things as he accompanies each verse with a new variation. Thanks, RedHotJazz.
              Phil Warrington
            • Andrew Homzy
              Hello, I d like to contact Mike Meddings. If you have his email, please send it off-list. Cheers, Andrew
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 3, 2013
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                Hello,

                I'd like to contact Mike Meddings.

                If you have his email, please send it off-list.

                Cheers,

                Andrew
              • ROBERT R. CALDER
                For new every chorus in a blues/ barrelhouse accompaniment try Robert McCoy accompanying Peanut the Kidnapper c. 1937. I don t have the details to hand, but
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 4, 2013
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                  For new every chorus in a blues/ barrelhouse accompaniment
                  try Robert McCoy accompanying "Peanut the Kidnapper" c. 1937.

                  I don't have the details to hand, but the accompaniment is startling resourceful.

                  I have seen reviews in which Delmark's CD of McCoy material was mis-described as a combination of the two LPs recorded by the enthusiast Pat Cather in the 1960s, when he had found McCoy.
                  Actually it's only the first of the LPs, with additional material from even later. Wonderful performer, of an Alabama piano school between Jabo Williams and Walter Roland, whose style he echoes on another pre-war recording.  His recorded connection with Ms. Bogan, who achieved a startling stridency by singing fractionally off the note, seems to have been confined to playing piano on sides by a band under her name.

                  Alas no return for Charles Avery!

                  Robert R. Calder

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