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Is this Willie Joseph?

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  • ROBERT R. CALDER
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF_X-cNng2k an intriguing performance, which might have been discussed when I couldn t give much attention to this site, have
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 22, 2013
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      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF_X-cNng2k

      an intriguing performance, which might have been discussed when I couldn't give much attention to this site,

      have fun!

      Robert R. Calder


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Howard Rye
      This session has been the subject of unending speculation ever since collectors were aware of it. There are no names in the files and the only safe
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 23, 2013
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        This session has been the subject of unending speculation ever since
        collectors were aware of it. There are no names in the files and the only
        safe attribution is ³unknown².


        on 23/01/2013 02:46, ROBERT R. CALDER at serapion@... wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF_X-cNng2k
        >
        > an intriguing performance, which might have been discussed when I couldn't
        > give much attention to this site,
        >
        > have fun!
        >
        > Robert R. Calder
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >

        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert
        No; and it s not Sidney Arodin, either... Robert Greenwood.
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 23, 2013
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          No; and it's not Sidney Arodin, either...

          Robert Greenwood.
        • ROBERT R. CALDER
          I never supposed it would be Arodin, but I am fond of unending speculation. Adds a certain acuity to the listening. Even after being very fond of the track for
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 23, 2013
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            I never supposed it would be Arodin, but I am fond of unending speculation.
            Adds a certain acuity to the listening.
            Even after being very fond of the track for about forty years.

            Especially the coda

            cheers!
            R


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Andrew Homzy
            Sidney Arnandan or Arnondrin, better known as Sidney Arodin (March 29, 1901, Westwego, Louisiana - February 6, 1948, New Orleans) was an American jazz
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 24, 2013
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              "Sidney Arnandan or Arnondrin, better known as Sidney Arodin (March 29, 1901, Westwego, Louisiana - February 6, 1948, New Orleans) was an American jazz clarinetist and songwriter, best known for co-writing the pop standard "Lazy River" with Hoagy Carmichael."


              Seeing mention of Sidney Arodin brings up a question which has long been in my mind -

              What was the extent of Arodin's contribution to "Up A Lazy River"?

              Composer credits sometimes show words by Carmichael & music by Arodin.

              Consider the chromatic labyrinth of the melody - I perceive this as the careful work of a "progressive" composer.

              Is there anything in Arodin's output which points to such ability? What other songs did he compose? Was he a competent arranger?

              To the above questions, I have been re-visiting the wonderful 1928 recordings of Monk Hazel & His Bienville Roof Orchestra

              The horn section of Bonanao, Arodin and Jordy is marvellous. The "consciousness" of the writing - the arrangements - is unique. Perhaps only surpassed by the writing of the small-group Bix-arrangements of the same time.

              Eugene Chadbourne - AllMusic Guide says:

              "Arodin got in on the "little instrument" concept years ahead of avant-garde players such as the Art Ensemble of Chicago by playing a toy instrument known as a "tonette" on the record "Sizzling the Blues," an example of the original thinking that makes him such a unique artist.

              Needless to say, Arodin did well from the royalties of "Lazy River," but could have done much better. He sometimes shares credit with the great songwriter Hoagy Carmichael for this song. There are also plenty of recordings where it is Carmichael that gets all the credit, bolstering speculation concerning other standard songs that Arodin claimed to have written in the early days, only to sell the rights away for a pittance, sometimes for as little as a bottle of wine. Any song mentioning rivers is suspect, as this was an Arodin preoccupation, no doubt dating back to his early years in the music business. Almost every ditty he is credited with writing has something to do with the subject. This includes "Drifting on a River," based on the same chord progression as "Lazy River," apparently just an exercise used by Arodin as a warm-up on the clarinet. "Lazy River" consists of this progression slowed down somewhat, with a set of lyrics that Arodin may have found along a riverbank and Carmichael pushed a bit further downstream."

              But I digress -

              Arodin is certainly a fine player - who stopped recording in 1934 and died 14years later.

              By the way, Arodin never recorded "Up A Lazy River" - the 1930 song which shares a chord progression of secondary dominants through the circle similar to such earlier songs as "Shine On, Harvest Moon" - 1908 and "Sweet Georgia Brown" - 1925 - AND - "Sizzling The Blues" (1928) recorded by the aforementioned Monk Hazel. I was hoping some of Arodin's prescient warm-up exercise would show-up in this recording - does it elsewhere?

              Cheers,

              Andrew Homzy


              ----------

              "Shine On, Harvest Moon" is the name of a popular early-1900s song credited to the married vaudeville team Nora Bayes and Jack Norworth. It was one of a series of Moon-related Tin Pan Alley songs of the era. The song was debuted by Bayes and Norworth in the Ziegfeld Follies of 1908 to great acclaim. It became a pop standard, and continues to be performed and recorded into the 21st century.

              During the vaudeville era, songs were often sold outright, and the purchaser would become the songwriter of record. John Kenrick's Who's Who In Musicals credits songwriters Edward Madden and Gus Edwards, while David Ewen's All the Years of American Popular Music credits Dave Stamper, who contributed songs to 21 editions of the Ziegfeld Follies and was Bayes' pianist from 1903 to 1908.[1] Vaudeville comic Eddie Cantor also credited Stamper in his 1934 book Ziegfeld - The Great Glorifier.[2]


              "Sweet Georgia Brown" is a jazz standard and pop tune written in 1925 by Ben Bernie and Maceo Pinkard (music) and Kenneth Casey (lyrics).

              The tune was first recorded on March 19, 1925 by bandleader Ben Bernie, resulting in a five-week No. 1 for Ben Bernie and his Hotel Roosevelt Orchestra.[1] As Bernie's then nationally famous orchestra did much to popularize the number, Pinkard cut Bernie in for a share of the tune's royalties by giving him a co-writer credit to the song.[citation needed]. It is the first song to have a sax solo.
            • fearfeasa
              The late Jules Gallé, clarinetist with the Brunies Brothers band from Biloxi, Mississippi, knew Arodin well. He told me in the early 1980s: (1) that the
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 24, 2013
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                The late Jules Gallé, clarinetist with the Brunies Brothers band from Biloxi, Mississippi, knew Arodin well. He told me in the early 1980s:

                (1) that the melody of Up a Lazy River was most definitely composed by Arodin and was in fact derived from an original practice exercise used regularly by Arodin as a warm-up;

                (2) that Arodin's original title for the piece was "Lazy Nigger" (sic!); and
                
                (3) that, yes, Arodin WAS "colored passing for white." In that racist society where a black man's efforts attracted something like one tenth of the pay of a white man's, this was done often enough, by those who could get away with it, and that his black compatriots used to laugh about the situation, and applauded his business acumen.

                J. T. Dyamond.




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Howard Rye
                If you search the archives of this group you will find detailed evidence that Arodin was not of African ancestry, not for many generations anyway, but I lack
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 24, 2013
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                  If you search the archives of this group you will find detailed evidence
                  that Arodin was not of African ancestry, not for many generations anyway,
                  but I lack the time to dig it all out and present it again. It appears to
                  have been a very rare instance in which African-Americans were mistaken in
                  believing that someone was passing. I certainly always accepted that Arodin
                  was a créole de couleur until Albert Haim (if memory serves) came up with
                  the actual evidence.


                  on 24/01/2013 12:41, fearfeasa at fearfeasa@... wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The late Jules Gallé, clarinetist with the Brunies Brothers band from Biloxi,
                  > Mississippi, knew Arodin well. He told me in the early 1980s:
                  >
                  > (1) that the melody of Up a Lazy River was most definitely composed by Arodin
                  > and was in fact derived from an original practice exercise used regularly by
                  > Arodin as a warm-up;
                  >
                  > (2) that Arodin's original title for the piece was "Lazy Nigger" (sic!); and
                  > 
                  > (3) that, yes, Arodin WAS "colored passing for white." In that racist society
                  > where a black man's efforts attracted something like one tenth of the pay of a
                  > white man's, this was done often enough, by those who could get away with it,
                  > and that his black compatriots used to laugh about the situation, and
                  > applauded his business acumen.
                  >
                  > J. T. Dyamond.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  howard@...
                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ron L'Herault
                  What CD(s) have all the Monk Hazel material? Ronald L Herault Lab Supervisor, Biomaterials Division B.U. School of Dental Medicine 801 Albany Street S203
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 24, 2013
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                    What CD(s) have all the Monk Hazel material?

                    Ronald L'Herault

                    Lab Supervisor, Biomaterials Division
                    B.U. School of Dental Medicine
                    801 Albany Street S203
                    Roxbury, MA 02119




                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of Andrew Homzy

                    To the above questions, I have been re-visiting the wonderful 1928
                    recordings of Monk Hazel & His Bienville Roof Orchestra
                  • Robert
                    Frog DGF5: Sizzling the Blues - New Orleans 1927-29. Which also includes the Johnnie Miller sides, the Louis Dumaines, the Jones-Collins Astoria Hot 8. Robert
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 24, 2013
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                      Frog DGF5: Sizzling the Blues - New Orleans 1927-29.
                      Which also includes the Johnnie Miller sides, the Louis Dumaines, the Jones-Collins Astoria Hot 8.

                      Robert Greenwood.

                      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Ron L'Herault" wrote:
                      >
                      > What CD(s) have all the Monk Hazel material?
                      >
                      > Ronald L'Herault
                      >
                      > Lab Supervisor, Biomaterials Division
                      > B.U. School of Dental Medicine
                      > 801 Albany Street S203
                      > Roxbury, MA 02119
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
                      > Behalf Of Andrew Homzy
                      >
                      > To the above questions, I have been re-visiting the wonderful 1928
                      > recordings of Monk Hazel & His Bienville Roof Orchestra
                      >
                    • Ron L'Herault
                      Thanks! Ronald L Herault Lab Supervisor, Biomaterials Division B.U. School of Dental Medicine 801 Albany Street S203 Roxbury, MA 02119 ... From:
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 24, 2013
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                        Thanks!

                        Ronald L'Herault

                        Lab Supervisor, Biomaterials Division
                        B.U. School of Dental Medicine
                        801 Albany Street S203
                        Roxbury, MA 02119




                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of Robert
                        Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 10:59 AM
                        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Sidney Arodin & "Up A Lazy River"

                        Frog DGF5: Sizzling the Blues - New Orleans 1927-29.
                        Which also includes the Johnnie Miller sides, the Louis Dumaines, the
                        Jones-Collins Astoria Hot 8.

                        Robert Greenwood.

                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Ron L'Herault" wrote:
                        >
                        > What CD(s) have all the Monk Hazel material?
                        >
                        > Ronald L'Herault
                        >
                        > Lab Supervisor, Biomaterials Division
                        > B.U. School of Dental Medicine
                        > 801 Albany Street S203
                        > Roxbury, MA 02119
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com]
                        > On Behalf Of Andrew Homzy
                        >
                        > To the above questions, I have been re-visiting the wonderful 1928
                        > recordings of Monk Hazel & His Bienville Roof Orchestra
                        >




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                      • Bob Eagle
                        If Sidney was colored passing for white , then it started with his grandparents - his paternal grandfather (and his 6 children, including Sidney s dad,
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jan 24, 2013
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                          If Sidney was "colored passing for white", then it started with his grandparents - his paternal grandfather (and his 6 children, including Sidney's dad, Victor) is listed at Westwego in the 1900 census as white.  The rest of the 50 people listed on that page were also presumably "passing", as they are all listed as "W" (white).  Victor, his father and his eldest brother were all "Fisherman" - maybe their attitude to race was temperred by working alongside black fishermen.

                          20 years later, in New Orleans, Sidney and his wife are again listed as white, as were all 50 people listed on the page.
                           
                          I realise this doesn't disprove "passing", but if they were passing, the family did it for decades and they were very successful at it.  And if the family culture was "white" then it is likely that Sidney thought of himself that way.
                           
                          Unfortunately, this looks like being a comment by a performer designed to curry favor with an enthusiast.  People like Arodin and Brunies were so involved with the roots of the music that they shouldn't have felt the need to prove themselves to be black.
                           
                          Bob
                           

                          ________________________________
                          From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2013 11:41 PM
                          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Sidney Arodin & "Up A Lazy River"


                           

                          The late Jules Gallé, clarinetist with the Brunies Brothers band from Biloxi, Mississippi, knew Arodin well. He told me in the early 1980s:

                          (1) that the melody of Up a Lazy River was most definitely composed by Arodin and was in fact derived from an original practice exercise used regularly by Arodin as a warm-up;

                          (2) that Arodin's original title for the piece was "Lazy Nigger" (sic!); and
                          
                          (3) that, yes, Arodin WAS "colored passing for white." In that racist society where a black man's efforts attracted something like one tenth of the pay of a white man's, this was done often enough, by those who could get away with it, and that his black compatriots used to laugh about the situation, and applauded his business acumen.

                          J. T. Dyamond.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Ory1886
                          Most of the people living in Westwego in that period had moved there from the coast from the area around Caminada Bay which was wiped out by a hurricane in
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jan 24, 2013
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                            Most of the people living in Westwego in that period had moved there from the coast from the area around Caminada Bay which was wiped out by a hurricane in 1892. It was a white community.
                            John McCusker
                            New Orleans

                            Sent from my iPhone

                            On Jan 24, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Bob Eagle <prof_hi_jinx@...> wrote:

                            > If Sidney was "colored passing for white", then it started with his grandparents - his paternal grandfather (and his 6 children, including Sidney's dad, Victor) is listed at Westwego in the 1900 census as white. The rest of the 50 people listed on that page were also presumably "passing", as they are all listed as "W" (white). Victor, his father and his eldest brother were all "Fisherman" - maybe their attitude to race was temperred by working alongside black fishermen.
                            >
                            > 20 years later, in New Orleans, Sidney and his wife are again listed as white, as were all 50 people listed on the page.
                            >
                            > I realise this doesn't disprove "passing", but if they were passing, the family did it for decades and they were very successful at it. And if the family culture was "white" then it is likely that Sidney thought of himself that way.
                            >
                            > Unfortunately, this looks like being a comment by a performer designed to curry favor with an enthusiast. People like Arodin and Brunies were so involved with the roots of the music that they shouldn't have felt the need to prove themselves to be black.
                            >
                            > Bob
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: fearfeasa fearfeasa@...>
                            > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2013 11:41 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Sidney Arodin & "Up A Lazy River"
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > The late Jules Gallé, clarinetist with the Brunies Brothers band from Biloxi, Mississippi, knew Arodin well. He told me in the early 1980s:
                            >
                            > (1) that the melody of Up a Lazy River was most definitely composed by Arodin and was in fact derived from an original practice exercise used regularly by Arodin as a warm-up;
                            >
                            > (2) that Arodin's original title for the piece was "Lazy Nigger" (sic!); and
                            > 
                            > (3) that, yes, Arodin WAS "colored passing for white." In that racist society where a black man's efforts attracted something like one tenth of the pay of a white man's, this was done often enough, by those who could get away with it, and that his black compatriots used to laugh about the situation, and applauded his business acumen.
                            >
                            > J. T. Dyamond.
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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