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Re: [RedHotJazz] Chicago South Side 1927?

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  • ALAN BOND
    Not too close though.Unlike the pop copyists, most of the jazzers tend to play in the style of rather than trying to be identical. The Brian White/Alan
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 27, 2012
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      Not too close though.Unlike the 'pop' copyists, most of the jazzers tend to play 'in the style of' rather than trying to be identical. The Brian White/Alan Gresty Ragtimers are a typical example of how the jazzers do it as they don't slavishly copy the Muggsy Spanier band and, in fact, play many numbers which were never associated with them. I have most of Bent Persson's 'Fifty Hot Choruses for Trumpet', originally penned by Louis but reputedly never recorded by the Great Man. Bent incorporated these into a selection of numbers which he recorded between 1976 and 1985. With a few exceptions I am not a fan of copyists in jazz as it devalues the music and the talent of the musicians, the vast majority of whom are far more skilled than anyone in the world of 'pop'. I expect Dippermouth and High Society to follow the original patterns set by Joe Oliver and Alphonse Picou but even then, many bands set their own style and manage to produce something original.
      Jazz is a music of the moment and it should always sound as fresh as the day it was recorded. If anyone doubts that this is so, you only have to look around your local junk shop where you will find 'pop' records by the hundred but very few jazz records. Where I live they are always snapped up PDQ. Jazz is not a 'throwaway' music unlike 'pop', which a very good friend of mine once described as 'consumer noise', a very apt description in my book.
      TTFN - 007



      ________________________________
      From: Mordechai Litzman <folke613@...>
      To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, 27 November 2012, 5:15
      Subject: [RedHotJazz] Chicago South Side 1927?

      Well, pretty close to the real thing:



      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC3laQIs8qU%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 Bent Persson and friends at Whitley Bay 2012

      Here is the original: 


      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emnSN1bAqlE%c2%a0 (The tune is I am going hunting)

      40

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • Mordechai Litzman
      Thanks for your thoughts. What I find encouraging is that there are bands who try to play in the less known styles of Jimmy Bertrand and Lovie Austin as
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 27, 2012
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        Thanks for your thoughts. What I find encouraging is that there are bands who try to play in the less known styles of Jimmy Bertrand and Lovie Austin as examples.

        Personally, the 1923 sides of King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band are among my absolute favorites, but there are only around 37 recordings or so. For me it is a treat to hear a band playing tunes in the style of the Creole Band that they never recorded or issued. There are very few bands who truly absorbed the style of the Creole Band - seems that it requires years of playing together to get it right.

        Right now two examples come to mind: The Dutch band Miss Lulu playing Ragging the Scale, and the German Barrelhouse Jazz Band playing Panama. (There is a Stomp Off CD with recordings of unissued Creole Band sides by Chris Tyle's Silver Leaf Jazz Band but it is more interesting because of the selections than the performance. The Danish Peruna Jazz Band and the British Frog Island Jazz Band do a good job but mainly copy Oliver recordings.)


        I would appreciate it if anybody could point me to true Creole Band style recordings of tunes that were not recorded by them.


        BTW, legend has it that the 50 hot choruses supposedly were recorded by Louis on piano rolls and then transcribed.


        ________________________________
        From: ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...>
        To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 3:21 AM
        Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Chicago South Side 1927?


         
        Not too close though.Unlike the 'pop' copyists, most of the jazzers tend to play 'in the style of' rather than trying to be identical. The Brian White/Alan GrestyRagtimers are a typical example of how the jazzers do it as they don't slavishly copy the MuggsySpanier band and, in fact, play many numbers which were never associated with them. I have most of Bent Persson's 'Fifty Hot Choruses for Trumpet', originally penned by Louis but reputedly never recorded by the Great Man. Bent incorporated these into a selection of numbers which he recorded between 1976 and 1985. With a few exceptions I am not a fan of copyists in jazz as it devalues the music and the talent of the musicians, the vast majority of whom are far more skilled than anyone in the world of 'pop'. I expect Dippermouth and High Society to follow the original patterns set by Joe Oliver and Alphonse Picou but even then, many bands set their own style and manage to produce something original.
        Jazz is a music of the moment and it should always sound as fresh as the day it was recorded. If anyone doubts that this is so, you only have to look around your local junk shop where you will find 'pop' records by the hundred but very few jazz records. Where I live they are always snapped up PDQ. Jazz is not a 'throwaway' music unlike 'pop', which a very good friend of mine once described as 'consumer noise', a very apt description in my book.
        TTFN - 007

        ________________________________
        From: Mordechai Litzman <folke613@...>
        To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, 27 November 2012, 5:15
        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Chicago South Side 1927?

        Well, pretty close to the real thing:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC3laQIs8qU%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 Bent Persson and friends at Whitley Bay 2012

        Here is the original: 

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emnSN1bAqlE%c2%a0 (The tune is I am going hunting)

        40

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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      • Ron L'Herault
        If I remember the story correctly, Louis recorded the solos into a dictating machine which at the time would have used wax cylinders . These dictating
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 27, 2012
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          If I remember the story correctly, Louis recorded the solos into a dictating machine which at the time would have used wax cylinders . These dictating machines were a direct outgrowth of the tin foil cylinder machine invented by Thomas Edison which were conceived by him to be business/educational devices. The home entertainment aspect was a happy and later, profitable outgrowth. Information on these cylinders is recorded in a vertically changing groove, rather than on a laterally undulating groove as can be seen on most flat disks (78 rpm, 45 rpm and 33.3 rpm being the main formats). Dictation cylinders have a different groove width and spacing (thread pitch) than contemporary music cylinders but the fidelity would have been about the same, i.e., very narrow. They reproduced the frequencies of the human voice pretty well but could not capture very high or very low frequencies which were perceived through the overtones that did get recorded.

          I have a few cylinder machines and have recorded small bands and banjo/vocal groups on wax.

          Ron L

          -----Original Message-----
          From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mordechai Litzman
          Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 10:55 AM
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Chicago South Side 1927?

          Thanks for your thoughts. What I find encouraging is that there are bands who try to play in the less known styles of Jimmy Bertrand and Lovie Austin as examples.

          Personally, the 1923 sides of King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band are among my absolute favorites, but there are only around 37 recordings or so. For me it is a treat to hear a band playing tunes in the style of the Creole Band that they never recorded or issued. There are very few bands who truly absorbed the style of the Creole Band - seems that it requires years of playing together to get it right.

          Right now two examples come to mind: The Dutch band Miss Lulu playing Ragging the Scale, and the German Barrelhouse Jazz Band playing Panama. (There is a Stomp Off CD with recordings of unissued Creole Band sides by Chris Tyle's Silver Leaf Jazz Band but it is more interesting because of the selections than the performance. The Danish Peruna Jazz Band and the British Frog Island Jazz Band do a good job but mainly copy Oliver recordings.)


          I would appreciate it if anybody could point me to true Creole Band style recordings of tunes that were not recorded by them.


          BTW, legend has it that the 50 hot choruses supposedly were recorded by Louis on piano rolls and then transcribed.


          ________________________________
          From: ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...>
          To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 3:21 AM
          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Chicago South Side 1927?



          Not too close though.Unlike the 'pop' copyists, most of the jazzers tend to play 'in the style of' rather than trying to be identical. The Brian White/Alan GrestyRagtimers are a typical example of how the jazzers do it as they don't slavishly copy the MuggsySpanier band and, in fact, play many numbers which were never associated with them. I have most of Bent Persson's 'Fifty Hot Choruses for Trumpet', originally penned by Louis but reputedly never recorded by the Great Man. Bent incorporated these into a selection of numbers which he recorded between 1976 and 1985. With a few exceptions I am not a fan of copyists in jazz as it devalues the music and the talent of the musicians, the vast majority of whom are far more skilled than anyone in the world of 'pop'. I expect Dippermouth and High Society to follow the original patterns set by Joe Oliver and Alphonse Picou but even then, many bands set their own style and manage to produce something original.
          Jazz is a music of the moment and it should always sound as fresh as the day it was recorded. If anyone doubts that this is so, you only have to look around your local junk shop where you will find 'pop' records by the hundred but very few jazz records. Where I live they are always snapped up PDQ. Jazz is not a 'throwaway' music unlike 'pop', which a very good friend of mine once described as 'consumer noise', a very apt description in my book.
          TTFN - 007

          ________________________________
          From: Mordechai Litzman <folke613@...>
          To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, 27 November 2012, 5:15
          Subject: [RedHotJazz] Chicago South Side 1927?

          Well, pretty close to the real thing:

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC3laQIs8qU Bent Persson and friends at Whitley Bay 2012

          Here is the original:

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emnSN1bAqlE (The tune is I am going hunting)

          40

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          ------------------------------------

          For technical questions regarding the Red Hot Jazz website, please see http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/rhj-tech/

          To stop receiving mail from this group, send blank email to:
          mailto://RedHotJazz-nomail@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          For technical questions regarding the Red Hot Jazz website, please see http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/rhj-tech/

          To stop receiving mail from this group, send blank email to:
          mailto://RedHotJazz-nomail@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
        • ALAN BOND
          One band which epitomises the Oliver style without slavishly copying is that of Steve Lane (Red Hot Peppers formerly Southern Stompers) who play )or used to)
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 27, 2012
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            One band which epitomises the Oliver style without slavishly copying is that of Steve Lane (Red Hot Peppers formerly Southern Stompers) who play )or used to) in the Oliver style, and indeed, do several Oliver CJB numbers. The Frog Island also play in the same style but tend to be more of a copyist organisation but that's not to say they don't swing, for they do and are a very tight band to boot. The 1948 Lyttelton band used to do several Oliver numbers without being copyists and to mind are one of the very best of all the British revivalist bands. Their tempos were often breakneck but not ragged and I had heard the leader described as 'tear-arse' Lyttelton. The Hot Antic JB have covered many styles among which was that of Jabbo Smith and a sadly missed organisation known as Charquet & Co were masters of the Fletcher Henderson/Don Redman/Bennie Moten style  and, boy, did they swing. Fortunately Whitley Bay seems to be a mecca for both musicians and
            audiences who enjoy rellay hot jazz and long may it continue. It's just a pity that the mainstream media ignores good stuff like this while hyping the drear and dreadful noise of the 'pop' acts.
            TTFN - 007


            ________________________________
            From: Mordechai Litzman <folke613@...>
            To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tu, and indeed esday, 27 November 2012, 15:54
            Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Chicago South Side 1927?

            Thanks for your thoughts. What I find encouraging is that there are bands who try to play in the less known styles of Jimmy Bertrand and Lovie Austin as examples.

            Personally, the 1923 sides of King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band are among my absolute favorites, but there are only around 37 recordings or so. For me it is a treat to hear a band playing tunes in the style of the Creole Band that they never recorded or issued. There are very few bands who truly absorbed the style of the Creole Band - seems that it requires years of playing together to get it right.

            Right now two examples come to mind: The Dutch band Miss Lulu playing Ragging the Scale, and the German Barrelhouse Jazz Band playing Panama. (There is a Stomp Off CD with recordings of unissued Creole Band sides by Chris Tyle's Silver Leaf Jazz Band but it is more interesting because of the selections than the performance. The Danish Peruna Jazz Band and the British Frog Island Jazz Band do a good job but mainly copy Oliver recordings.)


            I would appreciate it if anybody could point me to true Creole Band style recordings of tunes that were not recorded by them.


            BTW, legend has it that the 50 hot choruses supposedly were recorded by Louis on piano rolls and then transcribed.


            ________________________________
            From: ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...>
            To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 3:21 AM
            Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Chicago South Side 1927?


             
            Not too close though.Unlike the 'pop' copyists, most of the jazzers tend to play 'in the style of' rather than trying to be identical. The Brian White/Alan GrestyRagtimers are a typical example of how the jazzers do it as they don't slavishly copy the MuggsySpanier band and, in fact, play many numbers which were never associated with them. I have most of Bent Persson's 'Fifty Hot Choruses for Trumpet', originally penned by Louis but reputedly never recorded by the Great Man. Bent incorporated these into a selection of numbers which he recorded between 1976 and 1985. With a few exceptions I am not a fan of copyists in jazz as it devalues the music and the talent of the musicians, the vast majority of whom are far more skilled than anyone in the world of 'pop'. I expect Dippermouth and High Society to follow the original patterns set by Joe Oliver and Alphonse Picou but even then, many bands set their own style and manage to produce something original.
            Jazz is a music of the moment and it should always sound as fresh as the day it was recorded. If anyone doubts that this is so, you only have to look around your local junk shop where you will find 'pop' records by the hundred but very few jazz records. Where I live they are always snapped up PDQ. Jazz is not a 'throwaway' music unlike 'pop', which a very good friend of mine once described as 'consumer noise', a very apt description in my book.
            TTFN - 007

            ________________________________
            From: Mordechai Litzman <folke613@...>
            To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, 27 November 2012, 5:15
            Subject: [RedHotJazz] Chicago South Side 1927?

            Well, pretty close to the real thing:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC3laQIs8qU%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 Bent Persson and friends at Whitley Bay 2012

            Here is the original: 

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emnSN1bAqlE%c2%a0 (The tune is I am going hunting)

            40

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            ------------------------------------

            For technical questions regarding the Red Hot Jazz website, please see http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/rhj-tech/

            To stop receiving mail from this group, send blank email to:
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            For technical questions regarding the Red Hot Jazz website, please see http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/rhj-tech/

            To stop receiving mail from this group, send blank email to:
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Weiner
            There s a great CD by Randy Sandke titled REDISCOVERED LOUIS & BIX, featuring songs written by but unissued/unrecorded by both artists, in the style of the
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 28, 2012
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              There's a great CD by Randy Sandke titled REDISCOVERED LOUIS & BIX,
              featuring songs written by but unissued/unrecorded by both artists, in the
              style of the bands which would have played them had they done so! Several
              of the Louis selections are played in Creole Band style.

              >http://www.amazon.com/Rediscovered-Louis-Bix-Randy-Sandke/dp/B000A210WA/re
              >f=tmm_acd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1354122433&sr=8-2

              Dave Weiner


              >-----Original Message-----
              >From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
              >Behalf Of Mordechai Litzman
              >Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 10:55 AM
              >To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Chicago South Side 1927?
              >
              >Thanks for your thoughts. What I find encouraging is that there are bands
              >who try to play in the less known styles of Jimmy Bertrand and Lovie
              >Austin as examples.
              >
              >Personally, the 1923 sides of King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band are among my
              >absolute favorites, but there are only around 37 recordings or so. For me
              >it is a treat to hear a band playing tunes in the style of the Creole
              >Band that they never recorded or issued. There are very few bands who
              >truly absorbed the style of the Creole Band - seems that it requires
              >years of playing together to get it right.
              >
              >Right now two examples come to mind: The Dutch band Miss Lulu playing
              >Ragging the Scale, and the German Barrelhouse Jazz Band playing Panama.
              >(There is a Stomp Off CD with recordings of unissued Creole Band sides by
              >Chris Tyle's Silver Leaf Jazz Band but it is more interesting because of
              >the selections than the performance. The Danish Peruna Jazz Band and the
              >British Frog Island Jazz Band do a good job but mainly copy Oliver
              >recordings.)
              >
              >
              >I would appreciate it if anybody could point me to true Creole Band style
              >recordings of tunes that were not recorded by them.
              >
              >
              >BTW, legend has it that the 50 hot choruses supposedly were recorded by
              >Louis on piano rolls and then transcribed.
              >
              >
              >________________________________
              > From: ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...>
              >To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
              >Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 3:21 AM
              >Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Chicago South Side 1927?
              >
              >
              >
              >Not too close though.Unlike the 'pop' copyists, most of the jazzers tend
              >to play 'in the style of' rather than trying to be identical. The Brian
              >White/Alan GrestyRagtimers are a typical example of how the jazzers do it
              >as they don't slavishly copy the MuggsySpanier band and, in fact, play
              >many numbers which were never associated with them. I have most of Bent
              >Persson's 'Fifty Hot Choruses for Trumpet', originally penned by Louis
              >but reputedly never recorded by the Great Man. Bent incorporated these
              >into a selection of numbers which he recorded between 1976 and 1985. With
              >a few exceptions I am not a fan of copyists in jazz as it devalues the
              >music and the talent of the musicians, the vast majority of whom are far
              >more skilled than anyone in the world of 'pop'. I expect Dippermouth and
              >High Society to follow the original patterns set by Joe Oliver and
              >Alphonse Picou but even then, many bands set their own style and manage
              >to produce something original.
              >Jazz is a music of the moment and it should always sound as fresh as the
              >day it was recorded. If anyone doubts that this is so, you only have to
              >look around your local junk shop where you will find 'pop' records by the
              >hundred but very few jazz records. Where I live they are always snapped
              >up PDQ. Jazz is not a 'throwaway' music unlike 'pop', which a very good
              >friend of mine once described as 'consumer noise', a very apt description
              >in my book.
              >TTFN - 007
              >
              >________________________________
              >From: Mordechai Litzman <folke613@...>
              >To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
              >Sent: Tuesday, 27 November 2012, 5:15
              >Subject: [RedHotJazz] Chicago South Side 1927?
              >
              >Well, pretty close to the real thing:
              >
              >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC3laQIs8qU Bent Persson and
              >friends at Whitley Bay 2012
              >
              >Here is the original:
              >
              >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emnSN1bAqlE (The tune is I am going
              >hunting)
              >
              >40
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >For technical questions regarding the Red Hot Jazz website, please see
              >http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/rhj-tech/
              >
              >To stop receiving mail from this group, send blank email to:
              >mailto://RedHotJazz-nomail@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >For technical questions regarding the Red Hot Jazz website, please see
              >http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/rhj-tech/
              >
              >To stop receiving mail from this group, send blank email to:
              >mailto://RedHotJazz-nomail@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >For technical questions regarding the Red Hot Jazz website, please see
              >http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/rhj-tech/
              >
              >To stop receiving mail from this group, send blank email to:
              >mailto://RedHotJazz-nomail@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
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