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Re: Carmelo Jari with Jelly Roll Morton?

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  • anthony coleman
    Stop the presses! I just heard Big Ben by Bennett s Swamplanders (thank you Rich Connaty - WFUV), and there is no question in my mind that the clarinetist on
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 9, 2012
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      Stop the presses!

      I just heard Big Ben by Bennett's Swamplanders (thank you Rich Connaty - WFUV), and there is no question in my mind that the clarinetist on this session (Sept. 9, 1930) is the same as one of those unknown Morton guys. The problem is...He is listed as Alberto Socarras, and as far as I know, Socarras was exclusively a flutist - but maybe not? Which Morton guy? I'll go further and listen again - I have the sound in my head, but I can't match it up right now. But it's the right time, the right place, fits in w/people's memories of his being somehow Hispanic...Thoughts? One of my reed player friends says he sounds like he's playing clarinet w/ a flutist's embouchure.

      More Later,

      Anthony Coleman

      Hello to the group - I found the group because Morton minutiae keeps me up at night...



      The solo starts at 1:35

      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Michael
      >
      > I hear five different clarinets on these problematic 1930 Morton sides. I
      > exclude obviously the session with Albert Nicholas.
      >
      > 5 March. From Morton himself 'a white Victor house man' -- 'Eddie' -- who
      > 'tried hard but didn't have it in him to play good jazz'. The playing here
      > certainly fits that description although I wonder if it is technically
      > proficient enough to be a studio musician, even if the doubling on
      > bass-clarinet adds weight to this theory. Interestingly, the player has a
      > sound and phrasing at times reminiscent of Albert. Wilbur de Paris
      > remembered the name as 'Ernie' and Rust came up with either or both Ernie
      > Bullock and Eddie Scarpa. By the last sessions on which we hear him, Jari
      > was a much better player than this.
      >
      > 19 & 20 March. From 'Mr Jelly Roll' -- 'so eager was he to prove that his
      > 'little black dots' contained the essence of jazz that he brought in Nat
      > Shilkret's sweet clarinet player for one recording date and, working from
      > Jelly's arrangements, he played so much hot clarinet that ever since the
      > fans have been arguing about who this mystery man was'.
      >
      > That would mean Andy Sannella, who appears on scores of rather anonymous
      > sessions but an exposed example of whom I have been unable to find. Anybody
      > ? The playing here, obviously from Morton's dots, which echo substantially
      > the work of Simeon on earlier RHPs, would fit this description. This player
      > does trill but without bounce. This is the session on which Addison
      > identified 'Jajo' -- 'A Cuban Boy'. The photo linked below raises the
      > possibility that Sannella could pass for Cuban and maybe Addison, not
      > expecting a white this context, assumed him so to be.
      >
      > http://bixography.com/Sannella/1931AndySannellaHomePiano.jpg
      >
      > However, Sannella did also double bass clarinet and could therefore be a
      > possible for the 3 March session although we would then have to try and
      > rationalise Morton's apparently contradictory views of his ability.
      >
      > 2 June. Despite Rust placing Scarpa here, I hear only two reeds. There are
      > few clarinet parts and those are very poor and suggest saxophonists
      > doubling. Northing here either good enough for Jari. Rust reinstates the
      > Bros Thomas, who were definitely present, from photographic evidence, on the
      > sessions with Baquet of nearly a year earlier.This must be open to some
      > doubt.
      >
      > 9 October. Clarinet here only chalumeau, possibly to disguise his
      > ineptitude, and so very difficult to identify. But certainly a technically
      > less than fluent player. The nearest parallel in sound is Bigard.
      >
      > Conclusion, no Jari and I see no reason to doubt the firm evidence of his
      > death.
      >
      >
      > Dave



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • anthony coleman
      Sorry to clog up your mailboxes...but I m nearly sure that 19th and 20th of March are different guys, and Socarras (if it s him) is on 19th. He s a bit more in
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 9, 2012
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        Sorry to clog up your mailboxes...but I'm nearly sure that 19th and 20th of March are different guys, and Socarras (if it's him) is on 19th. He's a bit more in tune w/ Morton, but rhythmically the solo on Little Lawrence is virtually the same - or cut from the same cloth - as the one on Big Ben. Shilkret guy on 20th? Why not?

        Anthony
        On Sep 10, 2012, at 2:04 AM, anthony coleman wrote:

        >
        > Stop the presses!
        >
        > I just heard Big Ben by Bennett's Swamplanders (thank you Rich Connaty - WFUV), and there is no question in my mind that the clarinetist on this session (Sept. 9, 1930) is the same as one of those unknown Morton guys. The problem is...He is listed as Alberto Socarras, and as far as I know, Socarras was exclusively a flutist - but maybe not? Which Morton guy? I'll go further and listen again - I have the sound in my head, but I can't match it up right now. But it's the right time, the right place, fits in w/people's memories of his being somehow Hispanic...Thoughts? One of my reed player friends says he sounds like he's playing clarinet w/ a flutist's embouchure.
        >
        > More Later,
        >
        > Anthony Coleman
        >
        > Hello to the group - I found the group because Morton minutiae keeps me up at night...
        >
        >
        >
        > The solo starts at 1:35
        >
        > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> Hello Michael
        >>
        >> I hear five different clarinets on these problematic 1930 Morton sides. I
        >> exclude obviously the session with Albert Nicholas.
        >>
        >> 5 March. From Morton himself 'a white Victor house man' -- 'Eddie' -- who
        >> 'tried hard but didn't have it in him to play good jazz'. The playing here
        >> certainly fits that description although I wonder if it is technically
        >> proficient enough to be a studio musician, even if the doubling on
        >> bass-clarinet adds weight to this theory. Interestingly, the player has a
        >> sound and phrasing at times reminiscent of Albert. Wilbur de Paris
        >> remembered the name as 'Ernie' and Rust came up with either or both Ernie
        >> Bullock and Eddie Scarpa. By the last sessions on which we hear him, Jari
        >> was a much better player than this.
        >>
        >> 19 & 20 March. From 'Mr Jelly Roll' -- 'so eager was he to prove that his
        >> 'little black dots' contained the essence of jazz that he brought in Nat
        >> Shilkret's sweet clarinet player for one recording date and, working from
        >> Jelly's arrangements, he played so much hot clarinet that ever since the
        >> fans have been arguing about who this mystery man was'.
        >>
        >> That would mean Andy Sannella, who appears on scores of rather anonymous
        >> sessions but an exposed example of whom I have been unable to find. Anybody
        >> ? The playing here, obviously from Morton's dots, which echo substantially
        >> the work of Simeon on earlier RHPs, would fit this description. This player
        >> does trill but without bounce. This is the session on which Addison
        >> identified 'Jajo' -- 'A Cuban Boy'. The photo linked below raises the
        >> possibility that Sannella could pass for Cuban and maybe Addison, not
        >> expecting a white this context, assumed him so to be.
        >>
        >> http://bixography.com/Sannella/1931AndySannellaHomePiano.jpg
        >>
        >> However, Sannella did also double bass clarinet and could therefore be a
        >> possible for the 3 March session although we would then have to try and



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ROBERT R. CALDER
        Greetings, Group!                            Alberto Socarras was an all round reeds player, presumably several other group members
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 10, 2012
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          Greetings, Group!
                                     Alberto Socarras was an all round reeds player, presumably several other group members have the issue of Storyville with the article on him.  Is it a tin whistle whose appearance on a Clarence Williams number (possibly "What if I Do?"_) gets referred to Socarras' unusual resort to flute, on which he did perform and record with Chick Webb? 

          He couldn't have got along sticking with simply flute in the 1920s as a Latin and Jazz player. I seem to remember some obscure 1920s dance band recordings which also featured flute, but I don't have access to my files at the moment. They rather undermine claims that he was the first flautist on a jazz recording  -- which is presumably why he was misunderstood to have played only flute. 

          But somebody better placed can look up the Storyville article  -- and unlike me this week even listen to the recordings cited,

          ciao

          Robert R. Calder

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • stevenabrams78jazz
          Andy Sannella made some victor records around 1930 One example I have is Bubbling Over With Love. Many others on the Grey Gull house band sides. You could use
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 13, 2012
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            Andy Sannella made some victor records around 1930
            One example I have is Bubbling Over With Love.
            Many others on the Grey Gull house band sides.
            You could use these to compare to the unkown white
            player on the Moron sides.
          • David Brown
            Nice to have interest in this thread again. No doubt Socarras on the Bennett s for he is heard on flute on one side from the session. He was a fast and
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 14, 2012
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              Nice to have interest in this thread again.

              No doubt Socarras on the Bennett's for he is heard on flute on one side from
              the session.

              He was a fast and technically pretty proficient clarinettist. The thing
              about the 1930 RHPs -- apart from the session with Albert -- is the poor
              quality, technically and musically, of the clarinettists.

              My conclusions are in my post of 15 November 2011 . With subsequent
              information, I now place Tio almost certainly on the session of 9 October.


              Dave



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • anthony coleman
              Did you listen to the solo (Big Ben) again? Please do, and compare! Anthony ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 14, 2012
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                Did you listen to the solo (Big Ben) again? Please do, and compare!

                Anthony
                On Sep 14, 2012, at 5:39 AM, David Brown wrote:

                > Nice to have interest in this thread again.
                >
                > No doubt Socarras on the Bennett's for he is heard on flute on one side from
                > the session.
                >
                > He was a fast and technically pretty proficient clarinettist. The thing
                > about the 1930 RHPs -- apart from the session with Albert -- is the poor
                > quality, technically and musically, of the clarinettists.
                >
                > My conclusions are in my post of 15 November 2011 . With subsequent
                > information, I now place Tio almost certainly on the session of 9 October.
                >
                > Dave
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David Brown
                Hello Anthony I m switching now between Big Ben and Little Lawrence . I can hear some similarities of tone in places but otherwise I hear two different
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 17, 2012
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                  Hello Anthony

                  I'm switching now between 'Big Ben' and 'Little Lawrence'.

                  I can hear some similarities of tone in places but otherwise I hear two
                  different players. The former is a much better and faster technician
                  although also not without intonation problems. If anybody, he reminds me of
                  Albert Nicholas.

                  I am indebted to Michael Rader for:-

                  Storyville 116, p. 58, an article by Johnny Simmen. "In 1961, Sandy
                  (Williams) called Bernard Addison, the guitarist on the date (Gambling
                  Jack/Fickle Fay Creep), and he confirmed the presence of Ward Pinkett, Sandy
                  Williams, Billy Taylor, and Bill Beason. Sandy thought the clarinettist's
                  name was Jo-Jo but Addison said the name was Tao, "a light-skinned coloured
                  man from New Orleans, who, a few years later, died in New York."

                  Which suggests that the mythical JeJo/JoJo was somehow transposed to the
                  sessions of 19/20 March.


                  Dave


















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