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Ma Rainey on the Red Hot Jazz Archive

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  • Bob Smith
    I read somewhere that Ma Rainey made in excess of 100 recordings. The Red Hot Jazz Archive contains 94 recordings. Does anyone know if these 94 recordings were
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 20, 2012
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      I read somewhere that Ma Rainey made in excess of 100 recordings.

      The Red Hot Jazz Archive contains 94 recordings.

      Does anyone know if these 94 recordings were Ma Rainey's total output?
      If she did, in fact, make more than 100 recordings, do the unlisted recordings exist, and are they available on CD?

      Cheers

      Bob Smith


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • ALAN BOND
      According to TJD online and Brian Rust s Jazz Records 1897 - 1942 the sum total of Ma Rainey s recordings under her own name amounts to 92 titles. There may
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 20, 2012
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        According to TJD online and Brian Rust's 'Jazz Records 1897 - 1942' the sum total of Ma Rainey's recordings under her own name amounts to 92 titles. There may be others so watch this space.
        TTFN - 007



        ________________________________
        From: Bob Smith <robert.smith@...>
        To: Hot Red <redhotjazz@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, 20 June 2012, 15:50
        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Ma Rainey on the Red Hot Jazz Archive

        I read somewhere that Ma Rainey made in excess of 100 recordings.

        The Red Hot Jazz Archive contains 94 recordings.

        Does anyone know if these 94 recordings were Ma Rainey's total output?
        If she did, in fact, make more than 100 recordings, do the unlisted recordings exist, and are they available on CD?

        Cheers

        Bob Smith


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • ALAN BOND
        Further to my last post, I have been unable to find any identifiable recordings by Ma Rainey other than under her own name. This is not to say that there are
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 20, 2012
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          Further to my last post, I have been unable to find any identifiable recordings by Ma Rainey other than under her own name. This is not to say that there are none. Her maiden name was Gertrude Pridgett and there may well be recordings of her using that name. She was certainly working as a vaudeville singer from as early as 1898-1900 and may possibly have recorded before 1923.
          TTFN - 007



          ________________________________
          From: ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...>
          To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, 20 June 2012, 17:14
          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Ma Rainey on the Red Hot Jazz Archive

          According to TJD online and Brian Rust's 'Jazz Records 1897 - 1942' the sum total of Ma Rainey's recordings under her own name amounts to 92 titles. There may be others so watch this space.
          TTFN - 007



          ________________________________
          From: Bob Smith <robert.smith@...>
          To: Hot Red <redhotjazz@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, 20 June 2012, 15:50
          Subject: [RedHotJazz] Ma Rainey on the Red Hot Jazz Archive

          I read somewhere that Ma Rainey made in excess of 100 recordings.

          The Red Hot Jazz Archive contains 94 recordings.

          Does anyone know if these 94 recordings were Ma Rainey's total output?
          If she did, in fact, make more than 100 recordings, do the unlisted recordings exist, and are they available on CD?

          Cheers

          Bob Smith


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          For technical questions regarding the Red Hot Jazz website, please see http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/rhj-tech/

          To stop receiving mail from this group, send blank email to:
          <a href="mailto:RedHotJazz-nomail@yahoogroups.com">RedHotJazz-nomail@yahoogroups.com</a>. Yahoo! Groups Links



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          ------------------------------------

          For technical questions regarding the Red Hot Jazz website, please see http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/rhj-tech/

          To stop receiving mail from this group, send blank email to:
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        • Patrice Champarou
          Blues and Gospel Records has a total of 98 sides, all under Ma Rainey’s name. This is one more than what is listed by Sandra Lieb, because she did not
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 20, 2012
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            Blues and Gospel Records has a total of 98 sides, all under Ma Rainey’s name. This is one more than what is listed by Sandra Lieb, because she did not mention the unissued take of Bo-Weavil Blues. This one appears in Rust’s fourth edition, which apparently mentions 97, but specifies takes 1 and 2 of Grievin’ Hearted Blues on a single line. I will research what exactly the RHJ Archive missed some time or other, but if some 78’s ever happened to be unearthed in the future, I doubt they could be undocumented or unnoticed pre-1923 recordings, regarding to her popularity in press releases prior to any recording.

            Patrice

            From: ALAN BOND
            Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 6:32 PM
            To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Ma Rainey on the Red Hot Jazz Archive


            Further to my last post, I have been unable to find any identifiable recordings by Ma Rainey other than under her own name. This is not to say that there are none. Her maiden name was Gertrude Pridgett and there may well be recordings of her using that name. She was certainly working as a vaudeville singer from as early as 1898-1900 and may possibly have recorded before 1923.
            TTFN - 007

            ________________________________
            From: ALAN BOND <mailto:alan_bond%40btinternet.com>
            To: "mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, 20 June 2012, 17:14
            Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Ma Rainey on the Red Hot Jazz Archive

            According to TJD online and Brian Rust's 'Jazz Records 1897 - 1942' the sum total of Ma Rainey's recordings under her own name amounts to 92 titles. There may be others so watch this space.
            TTFN - 007

            ________________________________
            From: Bob Smith <mailto:robert.smith%40tele2.no>
            To: Hot Red <mailto:redhotjazz%40yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, 20 June 2012, 15:50
            Subject: [RedHotJazz] Ma Rainey on the Red Hot Jazz Archive

            I read somewhere that Ma Rainey made in excess of 100 recordings.

            The Red Hot Jazz Archive contains 94 recordings.

            Does anyone know if these 94 recordings were Ma Rainey's total output?
            If she did, in fact, make more than 100 recordings, do the unlisted recordings exist, and are they available on CD?

            Cheers

            Bob Smith




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bob Smith
            Dear Alan and Patrice, Many thanks for your input regarding the number of recordings made by Ma Rainey. According to the web-site ... keep on living ...
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 27, 2012
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              Dear Alan and Patrice,

              Many thanks for your input regarding the number of recordings made by Ma Rainey.

              According to the web-site '... keep on living ...' there are only 94 titles (counting later recordings of the same titles as different titles), and these are all on the Red Hot Jazz Archive site. However, in addition, 19 titles have two takes that seem to be issued on the same Paramount label, bringing the grand total of viable recordings up to 119, thus validating the claim that Ma Rainey made more than a 100 recordings. I can only assume that those 19 titles had to be issued or re-issued using two different masters due to technical reasons (e.g. lost or damaged masters before the issue was complete). If anyone has any original Ma Rainey Paramounts it would be interesting to know if the matrix number scratched into the wax also includes the take number.

              Kind Regards

              Bob Smith


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • ALAN BOND
              As with many artistes, no doubt the Ma Rainey sides would have had alternative masters in case of high demand. With the quality of the Paramount recordings
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 27, 2012
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                As with many artistes, no doubt the Ma Rainey sides would have had alternative masters in case of high demand. With the quality of the Paramount recordings being somewhat lower than most, it probably meant that the masters wore out rather quicker that with the better quality labels so additional masters would have been essential. Having said that, I think you will find the Autograph label even worse as testified by the Oliver/Morton duets on that label. The late Richard Grandorge quoted Rex Harris as saying that the recording engineer used a hammer and chisel to cut the grooves while his elbow was nudged by Joe Oliver to indicate the notes  to be recorded. An interesting concept indeed !
                TTFN - 007


                ________________________________
                From: Bob Smith <robert.smith@...>
                To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2012, 22:30
                Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Ma Rainey on the Red Hot Jazz Archive

                Dear Alan and Patrice,

                Many thanks for your input regarding the number of recordings made by Ma Rainey.

                According to the web-site '... keep on living ...' there are only 94 titles (counting later recordings of the same titles as different titles), and these are all on the Red Hot Jazz Archive site. However, in addition, 19 titles have two takes that seem to be issued on the same Paramount label, bringing the grand total of viable recordings up to 119, thus validating the claim that Ma Rainey made more than a 100 recordings. I can only assume that those 19 titles had to be issued or re-issued using two different masters due to technical reasons (e.g. lost or damaged masters before the issue was complete). If anyone has any original Ma Rainey Paramounts it would be interesting to know if the matrix number scratched into the wax also includes the take number.

                Kind Regards

                Bob Smith


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                For technical questions regarding the Red Hot Jazz website, please see http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/rhj-tech/

                To stop receiving mail from this group, send blank email to:
                <a href="mailto:RedHotJazz-nomail@yahoogroups.com">RedHotJazz-nomail@yahoogroups.com</a>. Yahoo! Groups Links



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              • Patrice Champarou
                I checked, as promised, but never found time to send... The number of 94 is correct, I was confused by the fact that four alternative takes are listed
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 27, 2012
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                  I checked, as promised, but never found time to send...
                  The number of 94 is correct, I was confused by the fact that four alternative takes are listed separately in B&GR (Bo-Weavil Blues, Grievin’ Hearted Blues, Sleep Taking Blues, and Black Eye Blues) which accounts for the apparent difference. The titles I suspected as missing were, in fact, listed under “solo discography” while I was expecting them in the “Georgia (Jazz) Band” list.

                  I have counted 20 more alternative takes which are simply indicated by a number on the same line, so that would make a total of 24 known extra takes.

                  There are also 49 single takes which are mentioned as –2, –3, or even –4, could we imagine that a few of these were preceded by something more than false starts...?

                  Patrice


                  From: Bob Smith
                  Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:30 PM
                  To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Ma Rainey on the Red Hot Jazz Archive


                  Dear Alan and Patrice,

                  Many thanks for your input regarding the number of recordings made by Ma Rainey.

                  According to the web-site '... keep on living ...' there are only 94 titles (counting later recordings of the same titles as different titles), and these are all on the Red Hot Jazz Archive site. However, in addition, 19 titles have two takes that seem to be issued on the same Paramount label, bringing the grand total of viable recordings up to 119, thus validating the claim that Ma Rainey made more than a 100 recordings. I can only assume that those 19 titles had to be issued or re-issued using two different masters due to technical reasons (e.g. lost or damaged masters before the issue was complete). If anyone has any original Ma Rainey Paramounts it would be interesting to know if the matrix number scratched into the wax also includes the take number.

                  Kind Regards

                  Bob Smith

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Patrice Champarou
                  Ouch! Sorry everyone, I though I had held this stupid, nightly remark... poor memory denied by all evidence, the matrix number did appear on the label, but
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jun 28, 2012
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                    Ouch! Sorry everyone, I though I had held this stupid, nightly remark... poor memory denied by all evidence, the matrix number did appear on the label, but never followed by the take number... so Bob’s question was the relevant one - and the answer is quite probably “yes”.
                    Apologies again – not on the head, please !
                    Patrice

                    From: Patrice Champarou
                    Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:13 AM
                    To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Ma Rainey on the Red Hot Jazz Archive


                    > If anyone has any original Ma Rainey Paramounts it would be interesting to know if the matrix number scratched into the wax also includes the take number.
                    Sorry Bob, I failed to reply to that part. I do not own any original Paramount, but back in my own Middle-Ages, that is... stupidly enough, years before I learnt that discographies existed, I wore my eyes looking at matrix numbers from the photos which appeared in various publications. The were not scratched on the wax (as on some LP’s) but clearly printed on the label. And regarding Paramount, since they kept no files, I suppose this was the only way discographers managed to know of alternative takes.
                    Patrice

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