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Re: [RedHotJazz] Kid Ory on King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/Ory biography

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  • fearfeasa
    For goodness sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone playing on the
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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      For goodness' sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot
      Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone
      playing on the Dixie Syncopators sides recorded BEFORE that date might
      not be by Ory.

      You state in this post: "Filhe was replaced in the Oliver band because
      by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." When and where did
      Filhé "admit" that ?

      In a previous post you stated, " Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe
      played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to
      fade." Of course Ory would say that, or something similar — he'd just
      put the man out of work, after all — but when and where did Ory say this ?

      The Ory on sax idea is an interesting one, too. He is also reported to
      have played sax in the late 30s or early 40s when he was down on the
      chicken farm, but it's rather difficult to pin down any of these reports.

      You also say that " Ory had these records in his personal collection
      along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides." But which records are
      "these records" ? Are you stating categorically that Ory had copies of
      /Too Bad/, /Snag It/, /Deep Henderson/ and /Jackass Blues/ in his
      personal collection as examples of his own playing ?

      You also completely ignore the problem of the changing personnel in the
      reed section. Filhé was photographed in a studio band portrait session
      along with Darnell Howard, Albert Nicholas and Barney Bigard, the three
      of whom did not supposedly come together into the Syncopators until
      AFTER Ory had replaced Filhé.

      Let's try and sort the history out — as impartially as possible.

      JT



      Ar 07/03/12 12:58 :06, scríobh John McCusker:
      >
      > "What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
      > been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 — "
      >
      > Sorry but I think that's a bridge too far. The Dixie Syncopators sides
      > are without question Kid Ory- From the early "Too Bad," "Snag It"
      > sides through to "Black Snake Blues." That muted solo on "Sugerfoot
      > Stomp" alone should put that idea to rest. Filhe was replaced in the
      > Oliver band because by his own admission he couldn't cut it
      > anymore.Further, Ory had these records in his personal collection
      > along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides.
      > John McCusker
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@... <mailto:fearfeasa%40me.com>>
      > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:07 PM
      > Subject: Re: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it's the same photo as
      > featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The
      > personnels as seen in the photos of the Syncopators (i.e., the three
      > studio photos, all from the one date, and this one taken on the
      > bandstand, probably in early 1927) are hard to reconcile with the
      > personnels as given in Rust.
      >
      > The studio photos, which include Filhé, have a reed section of Howard,
      > Nicholas and Bigard. According to the Rust personnels, Howard replaced
      > Billy Paige sometime between the recording session of 29 May 2006 and
      > that of 23 July 1926. By the session of 17 September, Albert Nicholas
      > had left. Ory is present according to Rust on all of the Syncopators'
      > recording sessions until 27 April 1927.
      >
      > Aurally, I think we can say with absolute confidence that Ory was with
      > the Syncopators by the time of the session of 29 May 1926. The trombone
      > solo on /Sugar Foot Stomp/ from that session includes the signature
      > phrase which I count as Ory's all-time favourite, which he used
      > throughout his whole career, and which I have never heard from any of
      > his contemporaries. In the sessions prior to that, there is little to
      > suggest Ory in the trombone work; although the solo on /Snag It/ sounds
      > like him with regard to tone, it is just a rendition of the stock solo
      > (which he originated with the Creole JB, certainly) and is pretty much
      > identical on both takes.
      >
      > What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
      > been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 —
      > provided there was one other personnel change, namely, Darnell Howard
      > replacing Billy Paige earlier than is usually reckoned.
      >
      > Howard's recent post — "Published personnels for the Dixie Syncopators
      > came originally from Luis
Russell and Omer Simeon. On some sessions at
      > least Ory identified himself (and Jimmy Archey also identified himself
      > on later sides)" — is intriguing in this context. I'm willing to bet
      > that the IDs for the earliest sessions were at best a little hazy.
      >
      > JT
      >
      > Ar 03/03/12 19:23 :07, scríobh John McCusker:
      > >
      > > Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link:
      > > http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>
      > <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
      > > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
      > > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
      > > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
      > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a
      > > link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone.
      > > It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played
      > > there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on
      > > the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many
      > > of you may be unfamiliar with.
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>
      > <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
      > > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
      > > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
      > > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
      > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band
      > >
      > >
      > > Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall
      > > of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended.
      > > Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at
      > > the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his
      > > notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While
      > > in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written
      > > parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a
      > > mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John McCusker
      ________________________________ From: fearfeasa To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 8:19 AM Subject: Re:
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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        ________________________________
        From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 8:19 AM
        Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Kid Ory on King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/Ory biography


         
        For goodness' sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot
        Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone
        playing on the Dixie Syncopators sides recorded BEFORE that date might
        not be by Ory. 

        "Much hotter than Filhe, the Kid became a mainstay of the brass section for the rest of the plantation engagement.
        King Joe Oliver, Rust and Allen p. 17
        Doesn't sound like anyone would ever confuse these two players.


        You state in this post: "Filhe was replaced in the Oliver band because
        by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." When and where did
        Filhé "admit" that ?

        King Joe Oliver, Rust and Allen p. 17
        Filhe had an arrangement with Oliver.


        In a previous post you stated, " Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe
        played out his notice.


        "The only time he ever played alto professionally was during the first six weeks he was with Oliver. George Fields (sic) then playing trombone with King Joe, had six weeks left on his contract. "
        Jazz Information, Nov. 22, 1940, p. 7

        You also say that " Ory had these records in his personal collection
        along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides." But which records are
        "these records" ? Are you stating categorically that Ory had copies of
        /Too Bad/, /Snag It/, /Deep Henderson/ and /Jackass Blues/ in his
        personal collection as examples of his own playing ?
        Yes. I went through his records years ago and he had amassed  reissues of his recording with Oliver, Armstrong and Morton. Little else in his collection.

        You also completely ignore the problem of the changing personnel in the
        reed section. Filhé was photographed in a studio band portrait session
        along with Darnell Howard, Albert Nicholas and Barney Bigard, the three
        of whom did not supposedly come together into the Syncopators until
        AFTER Ory had replaced Filhé.

        Perhaps the problem above is the word "supposedly."Someone is obviously mistaken.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bob Smith
        Dear JT, ... by his own admission he couldn t cut it anymore. is probably a paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of King Joe
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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          Dear JT,

          " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
          "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in and took his place."

          Kind Regards

          Bob Smith


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • fearfeasa
          Thanks, Bob. I can t find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a bit odd, isn t it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as for having an
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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            Thanks, Bob. I can't find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a
            bit odd, isn't it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as
            for having "an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear
            started to go" --- from these words you'd think they'd been playing
            together for a few decades instead of a few months. Definitely a strange
            choice of words by the authors. I'd like to find their original source.

            When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
            collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
            these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
            the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
            tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without. Let me
            say it again: there is no evidence (apart from dodgy aural
            identification), that Ory played on the first couple of Syncopators'
            recording sessions. He may have done --- but then again, he may not
            have... It's fun to speculate.

            JT

            Ar 07/03/12 15:33 :23, scríobh Bob Smith:
            >
            > Dear JT,
            >
            > " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a
            > paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of
            > 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
            > "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that
            > he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was
            > time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in
            > and took his place."
            >
            > Kind Regards
            >
            > Bob Smith
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Howard Rye
            Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 8, 2012
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              Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
              was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
              misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.

              Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
              can¹t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).

              I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
              hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
              much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
              have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it¹s hard to see what
              Russell¹s motives might have been.

              >


              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John McCusker
              Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn t on.
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 8, 2012
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                Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn't on.



                ________________________________
                From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                To: red hot jazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:03 AM
                Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filhé


                 
                Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
                was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.

                Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
                can¹t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).

                I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
                hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
                much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
                have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it¹s hard to see what
                Russell¹s motives might have been.

                >

                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                howard@...
                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John McCusker
                When John said he d seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory s collection, I thought at first he meant he d seen original 78s of all these items; but
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 8, 2012
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                  "When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
                  collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
                  these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
                  the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
                  tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without."

                  I saw 78 reissues, not LPs. If I can find the inventory I did back in 2000 I'll share it with the group.

                  John



                  ________________________________
                  From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                  To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 5:45 PM
                  Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filhé


                   
                  Thanks, Bob. I can't find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a
                  bit odd, isn't it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as
                  for having "an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear
                  started to go" --- from these words you'd think they'd been playing
                  together for a few decades instead of a few months. Definitely a strange
                  choice of words by the authors. I'd like to find their original source.

                  When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
                  collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
                  these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
                  the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
                  tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without. Let me
                  say it again: there is no evidence (apart from dodgy aural
                  identification), that Ory played on the first couple of Syncopators'
                  recording sessions. He may have done --- but then again, he may not
                  have... It's fun to speculate.

                  JT

                  Ar 07/03/12 15:33 :23, scríobh Bob Smith:
                  >
                  > Dear JT,
                  >
                  > " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a
                  > paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of
                  > 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
                  > "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that
                  > he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was
                  > time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in
                  > and took his place."
                  >
                  > Kind Regards
                  >
                  > Bob Smith
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Howard Rye
                  Let’s be clear that I was merely suggesting that this would have to be the fallback position of people who wanted to claim he was not on the sides. I don’t
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 9, 2012
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                    Let�s be clear that I was merely suggesting that this would have to be the
                    fallback position of people who wanted to claim he was not on the sides. I
                    don�t think they have another one.


                    on 08/03/2012 16:06, John McCusker at ory1886@... wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview
                    > with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn't on.
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Howard Rye <howard@...
                    > <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk> >
                    > To: red hot jazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> >
                    > Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:03 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filh�
                    >
                    >
                    > �
                    > Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
                    > was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                    > misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.
                    >
                    > Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
                    > can�t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).
                    >
                    > I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
                    > hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
                    > much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
                    > have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it�s hard to see what
                    > Russell�s motives might have been.
                    >
                    >> >
                    >
                    > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                    > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                    > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                    howard@...
                    Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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