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Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: George FilhÃ(c) (was Oscar 'Be rnie' Young)

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  • Duncan
    To confuse matters further, I just ran across this: http://www.hancockcountyhistoricalsociety.com/reference/recordchurch_b.htm?id=OB-4915 It s the baptism of:
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 3, 2012
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      To confuse matters further, I just ran across this:
      http://www.hancockcountyhistoricalsociety.com/reference/recordchurch_b.htm?id=OB-4915

      It's the baptism of: Georges Alphonse Field

      Born: 07/29/1895

      Baptized: 09/08/1895

      Mother: Sidonia Dumini

      Father: Georges Field

      Sponsor: Felicite Rochon

      Sponsor: Jean Rochon

      *(...I tried to translate from french the name 'Filhe' but got nothing; is
      it possible that his name had become 'anglicized' to Field? Do the names
      of the sponsors mean anything to anyone?....)*

      http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=34&gsln=Dumini&gsln_x=XO
      Mississippi Marriages, 1776-1935
      Marriage & Divorce
      Name: Sidonia DuminiSpouse: George Filhe Marriage: date - Hancock,
      Mississippi

      *....and right below Sidonia's entry*:
      Quebec, Vital and Church Records (Drouin Collection), 1621-1967
      Birth, Baptism & Christening

      <http://search.ancestry.com/browse/view.aspx?dbid=1091&iid=d1p_03550557&pid=5888500&ssrc=&fn=Toussaint&ln=Alix+dit+Dumesnil&st=g>
      Name: Toussaint Alix dit Dumesnil
      [Toussaint Alixe dit Dumini] Spouse: Emilie Guai Dite Chempagne Marriage:
      year - city, Qu�bec (Quebec)

      *...Of course, Toussaint is more familiar to us as a name in N.O....,
      but....*

      *HAPPY HUNTING!!!!*





      On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 4:11 PM, Duncan <dmactds@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Marriage record for George Filhe and Sidonia Dumini - 1894
      >
      > http://www.hancockcountyhistoricalsociety.com/reference/recordchurch_m.htm?id=OM-0787
      >
      > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Thanks for that info, Howard.
      > >
      > > George Filh�� is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He
      > was
      > > there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
      > > is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
      > > while Filh�� is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
      > > shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
      > > recordings���
      > >
      > > By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
      > > racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
      > > for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
      > > reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
      > > "white".)
      > >
      > > The naming of Filh��'s son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
      > > certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest ��" unless "Duminie"
      > is
      > > a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
      > > helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
      > > George, if he is the step-father.
      > >
      > > Thanks again for the information you've provided.
      > >
      > > J.T.
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Patrice Champarou
      *(...I tried to translate from french the name Filhe but got nothing; is it possible that his name had become anglicized to Field? Filhe is an ancient noun
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 3, 2012
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        *(...I tried to translate from french the name 'Filhe' but got nothing; is
        it possible that his name had become 'anglicized' to Field?

        Filhe is an ancient noun for both "son" and "daughter", it can be located as
        a family name in several parts of France, mostly in the South.
        But when a patronmyn happens to be anglicised, unlike Christian names it is
        seldom "tranlated", rather transformed into a phonetical approximation
        without any consideration for its semantics.

        Patrice (not of mich help, I know)
      • Howard Rye
        At a quick guess Georges Field, who is clearly George Filhé, is not so much an anglicization but an anglophone Mississippi clerk failing to understand what
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 4, 2012
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          At a quick guess Georges Field, who is clearly George Filhé, is not so much
          an anglicization but an anglophone Mississippi clerk failing to understand
          what the Creole from across the state line was actually saying, and not
          caring.

          It was pointed out many years ago that many strange spellings in records of
          African-Americans can be explained by justified fears of the consequences of
          attempting to tell a white clerk he was getting it wrong! You just let
          officialdom write down whatever it wanted and got the hell out.

          My very favourite example to date of the uselessness of racial descriptions
          in the U.S. Census is the family of guitarist Isidore Langlois. In the 1900
          census, his mother and father are white and his elder brother Joseph black
          (go figure). In the 1910 census (the guitarist was born on 14 July 1906) the
          whole family (now with three sons) are mulatto. In the 1920 census they are
          black, including Mme Langlois's parents, whose 'white' daughter had been
          enumerated in 1900. Three records which are the very microcosm of the
          declining status of Louisiana Creoles and with it the perception of their
          colour, also no doubt of the growth of racism in Louisiana as the French
          whites also lost power.
        • Duncan
          Patrice, Au contraire (...no, I don t speak french..., I m just showing off....), but anyway, your explanation makes perfect sense and is probably what
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 4, 2012
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            Patrice,
            Au contraire (...no, I don't speak french..., I'm just showing off....),
            but anyway, your explanation makes perfect sense and is probably what
            happened not just at this baptism but many, many times with folks' names
            who immigrated to this country or were already here but had "funny soundin'
            ferren names". Now the mystery is why was the name entered as "Field" in
            this particular baptism record and not corrected?

            Howard's presumptions could also be more along the line of what happened
            with this entry.

            Duncan

            On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 2:23 AM, Patrice Champarou <patrice.champarou@...
            > wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > *(...I tried to translate from french the name 'Filhe' but got nothing; is
            >
            > it possible that his name had become 'anglicized' to Field?
            >
            > Filhe is an ancient noun for both "son" and "daughter", it can be located
            > as
            > a family name in several parts of France, mostly in the South.
            > But when a patronmyn happens to be anglicised, unlike Christian names it
            > is
            > seldom "tranlated", rather transformed into a phonetical approximation
            > without any consideration for its semantics.
            >
            > Patrice (not of mich help, I know)
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • fearfeasa
            As I recall, New Orleans sources often refer to Filhé as Field. It s par for the course with monoglot English speakers. Isn t the family name Filhé found
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 6, 2012
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              As I recall, New Orleans sources often refer to Filhé as "Field." It's
              par for the course with monoglot English speakers. Isn't the family name
              Filhé found in northern Spain and Portugal as well ?

              JT

              Ar 04/03/12 07:23 :41, scríobh Patrice Champarou:
              >
              > *(...I tried to translate from french the name 'Filhe' but got nothing; is
              > it possible that his name had become 'anglicized' to Field?
              >
              > Filhe is an ancient noun for both "son" and "daughter", it can be
              > located as
              > a family name in several parts of France, mostly in the South.
              > But when a patronmyn happens to be anglicised, unlike Christian names
              > it is
              > seldom "tranlated", rather transformed into a phonetical approximation
              > without any consideration for its semantics.
              >
              > Patrice (not of mich help, I know)
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • fearfeasa
              Thanks Duncan --- a wonderful piece of research ! This is probably the eldest son of our George(s) Filhé and his wife Sidonia --- but Sidonia, if she was
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 6, 2012
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                Thanks Duncan --- a wonderful piece of research ! This is probably the
                eldest son of our George(s) Filhé and his wife Sidonia --- but Sidonia,
                if she was 40 in 1919, must have been only 16.

                JT


                Ar 03/03/12 22:45 :38, scríobh Duncan:
                > To confuse matters further, I just ran across this:
                > http://www.hancockcountyhistoricalsociety.com/reference/recordchurch_b.htm?id=OB-4915
                >
                > It's the baptism of: Georges Alphonse Field
                >
                > Born: 07/29/1895
                >
                > Baptized: 09/08/1895
                >
                > Mother: Sidonia Dumini
                >
                > Father: Georges Field
                >
                > Sponsor: Felicite Rochon
                >
                > Sponsor: Jean Rochon
                >
                > *(...I tried to translate from french the name 'Filhe' but got nothing; is
                > it possible that his name had become 'anglicized' to Field? Do the names
                > of the sponsors mean anything to anyone?....)*
                >
                > http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=34&gsln=Dumini&gsln_x=XO
                > Mississippi Marriages, 1776-1935
                > Marriage& Divorce
                > Name: Sidonia DuminiSpouse: George Filhe Marriage: date - Hancock,
                > Mississippi
                >
                > *....and right below Sidonia's entry*:
                > Quebec, Vital and Church Records (Drouin Collection), 1621-1967
                > Birth, Baptism& Christening
                >
                > <http://search.ancestry.com/browse/view.aspx?dbid=1091&iid=d1p_03550557&pid=5888500&ssrc=&fn=Toussaint&ln=Alix+dit+Dumesnil&st=g>
                > Name: Toussaint Alix dit Dumesnil
                > [Toussaint Alixe dit Dumini] Spouse: Emilie Guai Dite Chempagne Marriage:
                > year - city, Québec (Quebec)
                >
                > *...Of course, Toussaint is more familiar to us as a name in N.O....,
                > but....*
                >
                > *HAPPY HUNTING!!!!*
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 4:11 PM, Duncan<dmactds@...> wrote:
                >
                >> **
                >>
                >>
                >> Marriage record for George Filhe and Sidonia Dumini - 1894
                >>
                >> http://www.hancockcountyhistoricalsociety.com/reference/recordchurch_m.htm?id=OM-0787
                >>
                >> --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, fearfeasa<fearfeasa@...> wrote:
                >>> Thanks for that info, Howard.
                >>>
                >>> George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He
                >> was
                >>> there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
                >>> is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
                >>> while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
                >>> shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
                >>> recordingsâEUR¦
                >>>
                >>> By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
                >>> racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
                >>> for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
                >>> reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
                >>> "white".)
                >>>
                >>> The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
                >>> certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest âEUR" unless "Duminie"
                >> is
                >>> a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
                >>> helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
                >>> George, if he is the step-father.
                >>>
                >>> Thanks again for the information you've provided.
                >>>
                >>> J.T.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>>
                >>
                >>
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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