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Re: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band/better link

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  • John McCusker
    Sorry, my bad. Here s the good link: http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html ________________________________ From: John McCusker
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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      Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link: http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html



      ________________________________
      From: John McCusker <ory1886@...>
      To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
      Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band


       
      Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone. It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many of you may be unfamiliar with.

      ________________________________
      From: John McCusker <ory1886@...>
      To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
      Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band


       
      Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended. Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.

      ________________________________
      From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 7:24 PM
      Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé (was Oscar 'Bernie' Young)

       
      Thanks for that info, Howard.

      George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
      there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
      is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
      while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
      shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
      recordings…

      By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
      racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
      for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
      reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
      "white".)

      The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
      certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest — unless "Duminie" is
      a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
      helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
      George, if he is the step-father.

      Thanks again for the information you've provided.

      J.T.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Duncan
      Marriage record for George Filhe and Sidonia Dumini - 1894 http://www.hancockcountyhistoricalsociety.com/reference/recordchurch_m.htm?id=OM-0787
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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        Marriage record for George Filhe and Sidonia Dumini - 1894
        http://www.hancockcountyhistoricalsociety.com/reference/recordchurch_m.htm?id=OM-0787

        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks for that info, Howard.
        >
        > George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
        > there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
        > is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
        > while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
        > shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
        > recordings…
        >
        > By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
        > racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
        > for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
        > reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
        > "white".)
        >
        > The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
        > certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest â€" unless "Duminie" is
        > a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
        > helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
        > George, if he is the step-father.
        >
        > Thanks again for the information you've provided.
        >
        > J.T.
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • fearfeasa
        Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it s the same photo as featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The personnels as
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 6, 2012
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          Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it's the same photo as
          featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The
          personnels as seen in the photos of the Syncopators (i.e., the three
          studio photos, all from the one date, and this one taken on the
          bandstand, probably in early 1927) are hard to reconcile with the
          personnels as given in Rust.

          The studio photos, which include Filhé, have a reed section of Howard,
          Nicholas and Bigard. According to the Rust personnels, Howard replaced
          Billy Paige sometime between the recording session of 29 May 2006 and
          that of 23 July 1926. By the session of 17 September, Albert Nicholas
          had left. Ory is present according to Rust on all of the Syncopators'
          recording sessions until 27 April 1927.

          Aurally, I think we can say with absolute confidence that Ory was with
          the Syncopators by the time of the session of 29 May 1926. The trombone
          solo on /Sugar Foot Stomp/ from that session includes the signature
          phrase which I count as Ory's all-time favourite, which he used
          throughout his whole career, and which I have never heard from any of
          his contemporaries. In the sessions prior to that, there is little to
          suggest Ory in the trombone work; although the solo on /Snag It/ sounds
          like him with regard to tone, it is just a rendition of the stock solo
          (which he originated with the Creole JB, certainly) and is pretty much
          identical on both takes.

          What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
          been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 —
          provided there was one other personnel change, namely, Darnell Howard
          replacing Billy Paige earlier than is usually reckoned.

          Howard's recent post — "Published personnels for the Dixie Syncopators
          came originally from Luis
Russell and Omer Simeon. On some sessions at
          least Ory identified himself (and Jimmy Archey also identified himself
          on later sides)" — is intriguing in this context. I'm willing to bet
          that the IDs for the earliest sessions were at best a little hazy.

          JT



          Ar 03/03/12 19:23 :07, scríobh John McCusker:
          >
          > Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link:
          > http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
          > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
          > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
          > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
          > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band
          >
          >
          >
          > Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a
          > link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone.
          > It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played
          > there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on
          > the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many
          > of you may be unfamiliar with.
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
          > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
          > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
          > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
          > Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band
          >
          >
          > Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall
          > of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended.
          > Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at
          > the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his
          > notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While
          > in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written
          > parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a
          > mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John McCusker
          What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 — Sorry but I think
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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            "What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
            been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 — "


            Sorry but I think that's a bridge too far. The Dixie Syncopators sides are without question Kid Ory- From the early "Too Bad," "Snag It" sides through to "Black Snake Blues." That muted solo on "Sugerfoot Stomp" alone should put that idea to rest.  Filhe was replaced in the Oliver band because by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore.Further, Ory had these records in his personal collection along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides.
            John McCusker




            ________________________________
            From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
            To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:07 PM
            Subject: Re: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators


             
            Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it's the same photo as
            featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The
            personnels as seen in the photos of the Syncopators (i.e., the three
            studio photos, all from the one date, and this one taken on the
            bandstand, probably in early 1927) are hard to reconcile with the
            personnels as given in Rust.

            The studio photos, which include Filhé, have a reed section of Howard,
            Nicholas and Bigard. According to the Rust personnels, Howard replaced
            Billy Paige sometime between the recording session of 29 May 2006 and
            that of 23 July 1926. By the session of 17 September, Albert Nicholas
            had left. Ory is present according to Rust on all of the Syncopators'
            recording sessions until 27 April 1927.

            Aurally, I think we can say with absolute confidence that Ory was with
            the Syncopators by the time of the session of 29 May 1926. The trombone
            solo on /Sugar Foot Stomp/ from that session includes the signature
            phrase which I count as Ory's all-time favourite, which he used
            throughout his whole career, and which I have never heard from any of
            his contemporaries. In the sessions prior to that, there is little to
            suggest Ory in the trombone work; although the solo on /Snag It/ sounds
            like him with regard to tone, it is just a rendition of the stock solo
            (which he originated with the Creole JB, certainly) and is pretty much
            identical on both takes.

            What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
            been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 —
            provided there was one other personnel change, namely, Darnell Howard
            replacing Billy Paige earlier than is usually reckoned.

            Howard's recent post — "Published personnels for the Dixie Syncopators
            came originally from Luis
Russell and Omer Simeon. On some sessions at
            least Ory identified himself (and Jimmy Archey also identified himself
            on later sides)" — is intriguing in this context. I'm willing to bet
            that the IDs for the earliest sessions were at best a little hazy.

            JT

            Ar 03/03/12 19:23 :07, scríobh John McCusker:
            >
            > Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link:
            > http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
            > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
            > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
            > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
            > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band
            >
            >
            >
            > Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a
            > link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone.
            > It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played
            > there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on
            > the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many
            > of you may be unfamiliar with.
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
            > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
            > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
            > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
            > Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band
            >
            >
            > Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall
            > of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended.
            > Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at
            > the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his
            > notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While
            > in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written
            > parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a
            > mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • fearfeasa
            For goodness sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone playing on the
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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              For goodness' sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot
              Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone
              playing on the Dixie Syncopators sides recorded BEFORE that date might
              not be by Ory.

              You state in this post: "Filhe was replaced in the Oliver band because
              by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." When and where did
              Filhé "admit" that ?

              In a previous post you stated, " Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe
              played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to
              fade." Of course Ory would say that, or something similar — he'd just
              put the man out of work, after all — but when and where did Ory say this ?

              The Ory on sax idea is an interesting one, too. He is also reported to
              have played sax in the late 30s or early 40s when he was down on the
              chicken farm, but it's rather difficult to pin down any of these reports.

              You also say that " Ory had these records in his personal collection
              along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides." But which records are
              "these records" ? Are you stating categorically that Ory had copies of
              /Too Bad/, /Snag It/, /Deep Henderson/ and /Jackass Blues/ in his
              personal collection as examples of his own playing ?

              You also completely ignore the problem of the changing personnel in the
              reed section. Filhé was photographed in a studio band portrait session
              along with Darnell Howard, Albert Nicholas and Barney Bigard, the three
              of whom did not supposedly come together into the Syncopators until
              AFTER Ory had replaced Filhé.

              Let's try and sort the history out — as impartially as possible.

              JT



              Ar 07/03/12 12:58 :06, scríobh John McCusker:
              >
              > "What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
              > been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 — "
              >
              > Sorry but I think that's a bridge too far. The Dixie Syncopators sides
              > are without question Kid Ory- From the early "Too Bad," "Snag It"
              > sides through to "Black Snake Blues." That muted solo on "Sugerfoot
              > Stomp" alone should put that idea to rest. Filhe was replaced in the
              > Oliver band because by his own admission he couldn't cut it
              > anymore.Further, Ory had these records in his personal collection
              > along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides.
              > John McCusker
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@... <mailto:fearfeasa%40me.com>>
              > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:07 PM
              > Subject: Re: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators
              >
              >
              >
              > Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it's the same photo as
              > featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The
              > personnels as seen in the photos of the Syncopators (i.e., the three
              > studio photos, all from the one date, and this one taken on the
              > bandstand, probably in early 1927) are hard to reconcile with the
              > personnels as given in Rust.
              >
              > The studio photos, which include Filhé, have a reed section of Howard,
              > Nicholas and Bigard. According to the Rust personnels, Howard replaced
              > Billy Paige sometime between the recording session of 29 May 2006 and
              > that of 23 July 1926. By the session of 17 September, Albert Nicholas
              > had left. Ory is present according to Rust on all of the Syncopators'
              > recording sessions until 27 April 1927.
              >
              > Aurally, I think we can say with absolute confidence that Ory was with
              > the Syncopators by the time of the session of 29 May 1926. The trombone
              > solo on /Sugar Foot Stomp/ from that session includes the signature
              > phrase which I count as Ory's all-time favourite, which he used
              > throughout his whole career, and which I have never heard from any of
              > his contemporaries. In the sessions prior to that, there is little to
              > suggest Ory in the trombone work; although the solo on /Snag It/ sounds
              > like him with regard to tone, it is just a rendition of the stock solo
              > (which he originated with the Creole JB, certainly) and is pretty much
              > identical on both takes.
              >
              > What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
              > been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 —
              > provided there was one other personnel change, namely, Darnell Howard
              > replacing Billy Paige earlier than is usually reckoned.
              >
              > Howard's recent post — "Published personnels for the Dixie Syncopators
              > came originally from Luis
Russell and Omer Simeon. On some sessions at
              > least Ory identified himself (and Jimmy Archey also identified himself
              > on later sides)" — is intriguing in this context. I'm willing to bet
              > that the IDs for the earliest sessions were at best a little hazy.
              >
              > JT
              >
              > Ar 03/03/12 19:23 :07, scríobh John McCusker:
              > >
              > > Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link:
              > > http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html
              > >
              > > ________________________________
              > > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>
              > <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
              > > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
              > > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
              > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a
              > > link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone.
              > > It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played
              > > there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on
              > > the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many
              > > of you may be unfamiliar with.
              > >
              > > ________________________________
              > > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>
              > <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
              > > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
              > > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
              > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band
              > >
              > >
              > > Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall
              > > of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended.
              > > Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at
              > > the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his
              > > notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While
              > > in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written
              > > parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a
              > > mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John McCusker
              ________________________________ From: fearfeasa To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 8:19 AM Subject: Re:
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                ________________________________
                From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 8:19 AM
                Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Kid Ory on King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/Ory biography


                 
                For goodness' sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot
                Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone
                playing on the Dixie Syncopators sides recorded BEFORE that date might
                not be by Ory. 

                "Much hotter than Filhe, the Kid became a mainstay of the brass section for the rest of the plantation engagement.
                King Joe Oliver, Rust and Allen p. 17
                Doesn't sound like anyone would ever confuse these two players.


                You state in this post: "Filhe was replaced in the Oliver band because
                by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." When and where did
                Filhé "admit" that ?

                King Joe Oliver, Rust and Allen p. 17
                Filhe had an arrangement with Oliver.


                In a previous post you stated, " Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe
                played out his notice.


                "The only time he ever played alto professionally was during the first six weeks he was with Oliver. George Fields (sic) then playing trombone with King Joe, had six weeks left on his contract. "
                Jazz Information, Nov. 22, 1940, p. 7

                You also say that " Ory had these records in his personal collection
                along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides." But which records are
                "these records" ? Are you stating categorically that Ory had copies of
                /Too Bad/, /Snag It/, /Deep Henderson/ and /Jackass Blues/ in his
                personal collection as examples of his own playing ?
                Yes. I went through his records years ago and he had amassed  reissues of his recording with Oliver, Armstrong and Morton. Little else in his collection.

                You also completely ignore the problem of the changing personnel in the
                reed section. Filhé was photographed in a studio band portrait session
                along with Darnell Howard, Albert Nicholas and Barney Bigard, the three
                of whom did not supposedly come together into the Syncopators until
                AFTER Ory had replaced Filhé.

                Perhaps the problem above is the word "supposedly."Someone is obviously mistaken.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bob Smith
                Dear JT, ... by his own admission he couldn t cut it anymore. is probably a paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of King Joe
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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                  Dear JT,

                  " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
                  "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in and took his place."

                  Kind Regards

                  Bob Smith


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • fearfeasa
                  Thanks, Bob. I can t find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a bit odd, isn t it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as for having an
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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                    Thanks, Bob. I can't find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a
                    bit odd, isn't it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as
                    for having "an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear
                    started to go" --- from these words you'd think they'd been playing
                    together for a few decades instead of a few months. Definitely a strange
                    choice of words by the authors. I'd like to find their original source.

                    When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
                    collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
                    these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
                    the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
                    tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without. Let me
                    say it again: there is no evidence (apart from dodgy aural
                    identification), that Ory played on the first couple of Syncopators'
                    recording sessions. He may have done --- but then again, he may not
                    have... It's fun to speculate.

                    JT

                    Ar 07/03/12 15:33 :23, scríobh Bob Smith:
                    >
                    > Dear JT,
                    >
                    > " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a
                    > paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of
                    > 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
                    > "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that
                    > he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was
                    > time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in
                    > and took his place."
                    >
                    > Kind Regards
                    >
                    > Bob Smith
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Howard Rye
                    Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 8, 2012
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                      Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
                      was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                      misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.

                      Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
                      can¹t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).

                      I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
                      hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
                      much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
                      have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it¹s hard to see what
                      Russell¹s motives might have been.

                      >


                      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                      howard@...
                      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John McCusker
                      Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn t on.
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 8, 2012
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                        Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn't on.



                        ________________________________
                        From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                        To: red hot jazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:03 AM
                        Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filhé


                         
                        Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
                        was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                        misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.

                        Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
                        can¹t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).

                        I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
                        hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
                        much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
                        have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it¹s hard to see what
                        Russell¹s motives might have been.

                        >

                        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                        howard@...
                        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • John McCusker
                        When John said he d seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory s collection, I thought at first he meant he d seen original 78s of all these items; but
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 8, 2012
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                          "When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
                          collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
                          these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
                          the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
                          tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without."

                          I saw 78 reissues, not LPs. If I can find the inventory I did back in 2000 I'll share it with the group.

                          John



                          ________________________________
                          From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 5:45 PM
                          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filhé


                           
                          Thanks, Bob. I can't find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a
                          bit odd, isn't it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as
                          for having "an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear
                          started to go" --- from these words you'd think they'd been playing
                          together for a few decades instead of a few months. Definitely a strange
                          choice of words by the authors. I'd like to find their original source.

                          When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
                          collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
                          these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
                          the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
                          tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without. Let me
                          say it again: there is no evidence (apart from dodgy aural
                          identification), that Ory played on the first couple of Syncopators'
                          recording sessions. He may have done --- but then again, he may not
                          have... It's fun to speculate.

                          JT

                          Ar 07/03/12 15:33 :23, scríobh Bob Smith:
                          >
                          > Dear JT,
                          >
                          > " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a
                          > paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of
                          > 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
                          > "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that
                          > he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was
                          > time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in
                          > and took his place."
                          >
                          > Kind Regards
                          >
                          > Bob Smith
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Howard Rye
                          Let’s be clear that I was merely suggesting that this would have to be the fallback position of people who wanted to claim he was not on the sides. I don’t
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 9, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Let�s be clear that I was merely suggesting that this would have to be the
                            fallback position of people who wanted to claim he was not on the sides. I
                            don�t think they have another one.


                            on 08/03/2012 16:06, John McCusker at ory1886@... wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview
                            > with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn't on.
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Howard Rye <howard@...
                            > <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk> >
                            > To: red hot jazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> >
                            > Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:03 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filh�
                            >
                            >
                            > �
                            > Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
                            > was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                            > misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.
                            >
                            > Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
                            > can�t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).
                            >
                            > I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
                            > hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
                            > much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
                            > have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it�s hard to see what
                            > Russell�s motives might have been.
                            >
                            >> >
                            >
                            > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                            > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                            > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                            howard@...
                            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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