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George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band

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  • John McCusker
    Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver s Dixe Syncopators in the fall of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended. Armstrong asked for more
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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      Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended. Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.



      ________________________________
      From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 7:24 PM
      Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé (was Oscar 'Bernie' Young)


       
      Thanks for that info, Howard.

      George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
      there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
      is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
      while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
      shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
      recordings…

      By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
      racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
      for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
      reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
      "white".)

      The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
      certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest — unless "Duminie" is
      a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
      helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
      George, if he is the step-father.

      Thanks again for the information you've provided.

      J.T.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John McCusker
      Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here s a link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone. It s from, a handbill
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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        Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone. It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many of you may be unfamiliar with.



        ________________________________
        From: John McCusker <ory1886@...>
        To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
        Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band


         
        Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended. Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.

        ________________________________
        From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 7:24 PM
        Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé (was Oscar 'Bernie' Young)


         
        Thanks for that info, Howard.

        George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
        there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
        is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
        while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
        shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
        recordings…

        By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
        racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
        for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
        reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
        "white".)

        The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
        certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest — unless "Duminie" is
        a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
        helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
        George, if he is the step-father.

        Thanks again for the information you've provided.

        J.T.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John McCusker
        Sorry, my bad. Here s the good link: http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html ________________________________ From: John McCusker
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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          Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link: http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html



          ________________________________
          From: John McCusker <ory1886@...>
          To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
          Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band


           
          Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone. It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many of you may be unfamiliar with.

          ________________________________
          From: John McCusker <ory1886@...>
          To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
          Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band


           
          Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended. Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.

          ________________________________
          From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 7:24 PM
          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé (was Oscar 'Bernie' Young)

           
          Thanks for that info, Howard.

          George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
          there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
          is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
          while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
          shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
          recordings…

          By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
          racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
          for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
          reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
          "white".)

          The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
          certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest — unless "Duminie" is
          a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
          helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
          George, if he is the step-father.

          Thanks again for the information you've provided.

          J.T.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Duncan
          Marriage record for George Filhe and Sidonia Dumini - 1894 http://www.hancockcountyhistoricalsociety.com/reference/recordchurch_m.htm?id=OM-0787
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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            Marriage record for George Filhe and Sidonia Dumini - 1894
            http://www.hancockcountyhistoricalsociety.com/reference/recordchurch_m.htm?id=OM-0787

            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks for that info, Howard.
            >
            > George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
            > there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
            > is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
            > while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
            > shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
            > recordings…
            >
            > By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
            > racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
            > for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
            > reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
            > "white".)
            >
            > The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
            > certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest â€" unless "Duminie" is
            > a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
            > helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
            > George, if he is the step-father.
            >
            > Thanks again for the information you've provided.
            >
            > J.T.
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • fearfeasa
            Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it s the same photo as featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The personnels as
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 6, 2012
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              Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it's the same photo as
              featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The
              personnels as seen in the photos of the Syncopators (i.e., the three
              studio photos, all from the one date, and this one taken on the
              bandstand, probably in early 1927) are hard to reconcile with the
              personnels as given in Rust.

              The studio photos, which include Filhé, have a reed section of Howard,
              Nicholas and Bigard. According to the Rust personnels, Howard replaced
              Billy Paige sometime between the recording session of 29 May 2006 and
              that of 23 July 1926. By the session of 17 September, Albert Nicholas
              had left. Ory is present according to Rust on all of the Syncopators'
              recording sessions until 27 April 1927.

              Aurally, I think we can say with absolute confidence that Ory was with
              the Syncopators by the time of the session of 29 May 1926. The trombone
              solo on /Sugar Foot Stomp/ from that session includes the signature
              phrase which I count as Ory's all-time favourite, which he used
              throughout his whole career, and which I have never heard from any of
              his contemporaries. In the sessions prior to that, there is little to
              suggest Ory in the trombone work; although the solo on /Snag It/ sounds
              like him with regard to tone, it is just a rendition of the stock solo
              (which he originated with the Creole JB, certainly) and is pretty much
              identical on both takes.

              What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
              been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 —
              provided there was one other personnel change, namely, Darnell Howard
              replacing Billy Paige earlier than is usually reckoned.

              Howard's recent post — "Published personnels for the Dixie Syncopators
              came originally from Luis
Russell and Omer Simeon. On some sessions at
              least Ory identified himself (and Jimmy Archey also identified himself
              on later sides)" — is intriguing in this context. I'm willing to bet
              that the IDs for the earliest sessions were at best a little hazy.

              JT



              Ar 03/03/12 19:23 :07, scríobh John McCusker:
              >
              > Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link:
              > http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
              > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
              > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
              > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band
              >
              >
              >
              > Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a
              > link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone.
              > It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played
              > there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on
              > the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many
              > of you may be unfamiliar with.
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
              > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
              > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
              > Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band
              >
              >
              > Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall
              > of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended.
              > Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at
              > the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his
              > notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While
              > in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written
              > parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a
              > mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John McCusker
              What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 — Sorry but I think
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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                "What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
                been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 — "


                Sorry but I think that's a bridge too far. The Dixie Syncopators sides are without question Kid Ory- From the early "Too Bad," "Snag It" sides through to "Black Snake Blues." That muted solo on "Sugerfoot Stomp" alone should put that idea to rest.  Filhe was replaced in the Oliver band because by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore.Further, Ory had these records in his personal collection along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides.
                John McCusker




                ________________________________
                From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:07 PM
                Subject: Re: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators


                 
                Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it's the same photo as
                featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The
                personnels as seen in the photos of the Syncopators (i.e., the three
                studio photos, all from the one date, and this one taken on the
                bandstand, probably in early 1927) are hard to reconcile with the
                personnels as given in Rust.

                The studio photos, which include Filhé, have a reed section of Howard,
                Nicholas and Bigard. According to the Rust personnels, Howard replaced
                Billy Paige sometime between the recording session of 29 May 2006 and
                that of 23 July 1926. By the session of 17 September, Albert Nicholas
                had left. Ory is present according to Rust on all of the Syncopators'
                recording sessions until 27 April 1927.

                Aurally, I think we can say with absolute confidence that Ory was with
                the Syncopators by the time of the session of 29 May 1926. The trombone
                solo on /Sugar Foot Stomp/ from that session includes the signature
                phrase which I count as Ory's all-time favourite, which he used
                throughout his whole career, and which I have never heard from any of
                his contemporaries. In the sessions prior to that, there is little to
                suggest Ory in the trombone work; although the solo on /Snag It/ sounds
                like him with regard to tone, it is just a rendition of the stock solo
                (which he originated with the Creole JB, certainly) and is pretty much
                identical on both takes.

                What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
                been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 —
                provided there was one other personnel change, namely, Darnell Howard
                replacing Billy Paige earlier than is usually reckoned.

                Howard's recent post — "Published personnels for the Dixie Syncopators
                came originally from Luis
Russell and Omer Simeon. On some sessions at
                least Ory identified himself (and Jimmy Archey also identified himself
                on later sides)" — is intriguing in this context. I'm willing to bet
                that the IDs for the earliest sessions were at best a little hazy.

                JT

                Ar 03/03/12 19:23 :07, scríobh John McCusker:
                >
                > Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link:
                > http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
                > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band
                >
                >
                >
                > Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a
                > link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone.
                > It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played
                > there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on
                > the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many
                > of you may be unfamiliar with.
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
                > Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band
                >
                >
                > Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall
                > of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended.
                > Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at
                > the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his
                > notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While
                > in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written
                > parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a
                > mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • fearfeasa
                For goodness sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone playing on the
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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                  For goodness' sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot
                  Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone
                  playing on the Dixie Syncopators sides recorded BEFORE that date might
                  not be by Ory.

                  You state in this post: "Filhe was replaced in the Oliver band because
                  by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." When and where did
                  Filhé "admit" that ?

                  In a previous post you stated, " Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe
                  played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to
                  fade." Of course Ory would say that, or something similar — he'd just
                  put the man out of work, after all — but when and where did Ory say this ?

                  The Ory on sax idea is an interesting one, too. He is also reported to
                  have played sax in the late 30s or early 40s when he was down on the
                  chicken farm, but it's rather difficult to pin down any of these reports.

                  You also say that " Ory had these records in his personal collection
                  along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides." But which records are
                  "these records" ? Are you stating categorically that Ory had copies of
                  /Too Bad/, /Snag It/, /Deep Henderson/ and /Jackass Blues/ in his
                  personal collection as examples of his own playing ?

                  You also completely ignore the problem of the changing personnel in the
                  reed section. Filhé was photographed in a studio band portrait session
                  along with Darnell Howard, Albert Nicholas and Barney Bigard, the three
                  of whom did not supposedly come together into the Syncopators until
                  AFTER Ory had replaced Filhé.

                  Let's try and sort the history out — as impartially as possible.

                  JT



                  Ar 07/03/12 12:58 :06, scríobh John McCusker:
                  >
                  > "What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
                  > been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 — "
                  >
                  > Sorry but I think that's a bridge too far. The Dixie Syncopators sides
                  > are without question Kid Ory- From the early "Too Bad," "Snag It"
                  > sides through to "Black Snake Blues." That muted solo on "Sugerfoot
                  > Stomp" alone should put that idea to rest. Filhe was replaced in the
                  > Oliver band because by his own admission he couldn't cut it
                  > anymore.Further, Ory had these records in his personal collection
                  > along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides.
                  > John McCusker
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@... <mailto:fearfeasa%40me.com>>
                  > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:07 PM
                  > Subject: Re: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it's the same photo as
                  > featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The
                  > personnels as seen in the photos of the Syncopators (i.e., the three
                  > studio photos, all from the one date, and this one taken on the
                  > bandstand, probably in early 1927) are hard to reconcile with the
                  > personnels as given in Rust.
                  >
                  > The studio photos, which include Filhé, have a reed section of Howard,
                  > Nicholas and Bigard. According to the Rust personnels, Howard replaced
                  > Billy Paige sometime between the recording session of 29 May 2006 and
                  > that of 23 July 1926. By the session of 17 September, Albert Nicholas
                  > had left. Ory is present according to Rust on all of the Syncopators'
                  > recording sessions until 27 April 1927.
                  >
                  > Aurally, I think we can say with absolute confidence that Ory was with
                  > the Syncopators by the time of the session of 29 May 1926. The trombone
                  > solo on /Sugar Foot Stomp/ from that session includes the signature
                  > phrase which I count as Ory's all-time favourite, which he used
                  > throughout his whole career, and which I have never heard from any of
                  > his contemporaries. In the sessions prior to that, there is little to
                  > suggest Ory in the trombone work; although the solo on /Snag It/ sounds
                  > like him with regard to tone, it is just a rendition of the stock solo
                  > (which he originated with the Creole JB, certainly) and is pretty much
                  > identical on both takes.
                  >
                  > What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
                  > been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 —
                  > provided there was one other personnel change, namely, Darnell Howard
                  > replacing Billy Paige earlier than is usually reckoned.
                  >
                  > Howard's recent post — "Published personnels for the Dixie Syncopators
                  > came originally from Luis
Russell and Omer Simeon. On some sessions at
                  > least Ory identified himself (and Jimmy Archey also identified himself
                  > on later sides)" — is intriguing in this context. I'm willing to bet
                  > that the IDs for the earliest sessions were at best a little hazy.
                  >
                  > JT
                  >
                  > Ar 03/03/12 19:23 :07, scríobh John McCusker:
                  > >
                  > > Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link:
                  > > http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>
                  > <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                  > > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                  > > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                  > > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
                  > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a
                  > > link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone.
                  > > It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played
                  > > there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on
                  > > the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many
                  > > of you may be unfamiliar with.
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>
                  > <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                  > > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                  > > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                  > > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
                  > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall
                  > > of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended.
                  > > Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at
                  > > the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his
                  > > notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While
                  > > in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written
                  > > parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a
                  > > mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John McCusker
                  ________________________________ From: fearfeasa To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 8:19 AM Subject: Re:
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    ________________________________
                    From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                    To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 8:19 AM
                    Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Kid Ory on King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/Ory biography


                     
                    For goodness' sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot
                    Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone
                    playing on the Dixie Syncopators sides recorded BEFORE that date might
                    not be by Ory. 

                    "Much hotter than Filhe, the Kid became a mainstay of the brass section for the rest of the plantation engagement.
                    King Joe Oliver, Rust and Allen p. 17
                    Doesn't sound like anyone would ever confuse these two players.


                    You state in this post: "Filhe was replaced in the Oliver band because
                    by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." When and where did
                    Filhé "admit" that ?

                    King Joe Oliver, Rust and Allen p. 17
                    Filhe had an arrangement with Oliver.


                    In a previous post you stated, " Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe
                    played out his notice.


                    "The only time he ever played alto professionally was during the first six weeks he was with Oliver. George Fields (sic) then playing trombone with King Joe, had six weeks left on his contract. "
                    Jazz Information, Nov. 22, 1940, p. 7

                    You also say that " Ory had these records in his personal collection
                    along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides." But which records are
                    "these records" ? Are you stating categorically that Ory had copies of
                    /Too Bad/, /Snag It/, /Deep Henderson/ and /Jackass Blues/ in his
                    personal collection as examples of his own playing ?
                    Yes. I went through his records years ago and he had amassed  reissues of his recording with Oliver, Armstrong and Morton. Little else in his collection.

                    You also completely ignore the problem of the changing personnel in the
                    reed section. Filhé was photographed in a studio band portrait session
                    along with Darnell Howard, Albert Nicholas and Barney Bigard, the three
                    of whom did not supposedly come together into the Syncopators until
                    AFTER Ory had replaced Filhé.

                    Perhaps the problem above is the word "supposedly."Someone is obviously mistaken.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bob Smith
                    Dear JT, ... by his own admission he couldn t cut it anymore. is probably a paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of King Joe
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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                      Dear JT,

                      " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
                      "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in and took his place."

                      Kind Regards

                      Bob Smith


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • fearfeasa
                      Thanks, Bob. I can t find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a bit odd, isn t it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as for having an
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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                        Thanks, Bob. I can't find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a
                        bit odd, isn't it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as
                        for having "an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear
                        started to go" --- from these words you'd think they'd been playing
                        together for a few decades instead of a few months. Definitely a strange
                        choice of words by the authors. I'd like to find their original source.

                        When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
                        collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
                        these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
                        the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
                        tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without. Let me
                        say it again: there is no evidence (apart from dodgy aural
                        identification), that Ory played on the first couple of Syncopators'
                        recording sessions. He may have done --- but then again, he may not
                        have... It's fun to speculate.

                        JT

                        Ar 07/03/12 15:33 :23, scríobh Bob Smith:
                        >
                        > Dear JT,
                        >
                        > " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a
                        > paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of
                        > 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
                        > "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that
                        > he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was
                        > time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in
                        > and took his place."
                        >
                        > Kind Regards
                        >
                        > Bob Smith
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Howard Rye
                        Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 8, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
                          was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                          misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.

                          Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
                          can¹t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).

                          I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
                          hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
                          much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
                          have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it¹s hard to see what
                          Russell¹s motives might have been.

                          >


                          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                          howard@...
                          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • John McCusker
                          Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn t on.
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 8, 2012
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                            Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn't on.



                            ________________________________
                            From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                            To: red hot jazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:03 AM
                            Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filhé


                             
                            Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
                            was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                            misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.

                            Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
                            can¹t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).

                            I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
                            hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
                            much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
                            have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it¹s hard to see what
                            Russell¹s motives might have been.

                            >

                            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                            howard@...
                            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • John McCusker
                            When John said he d seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory s collection, I thought at first he meant he d seen original 78s of all these items; but
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 8, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              "When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
                              collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
                              these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
                              the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
                              tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without."

                              I saw 78 reissues, not LPs. If I can find the inventory I did back in 2000 I'll share it with the group.

                              John



                              ________________________________
                              From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 5:45 PM
                              Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filhé


                               
                              Thanks, Bob. I can't find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a
                              bit odd, isn't it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as
                              for having "an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear
                              started to go" --- from these words you'd think they'd been playing
                              together for a few decades instead of a few months. Definitely a strange
                              choice of words by the authors. I'd like to find their original source.

                              When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
                              collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
                              these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
                              the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
                              tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without. Let me
                              say it again: there is no evidence (apart from dodgy aural
                              identification), that Ory played on the first couple of Syncopators'
                              recording sessions. He may have done --- but then again, he may not
                              have... It's fun to speculate.

                              JT

                              Ar 07/03/12 15:33 :23, scríobh Bob Smith:
                              >
                              > Dear JT,
                              >
                              > " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a
                              > paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of
                              > 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
                              > "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that
                              > he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was
                              > time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in
                              > and took his place."
                              >
                              > Kind Regards
                              >
                              > Bob Smith
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Howard Rye
                              Let’s be clear that I was merely suggesting that this would have to be the fallback position of people who wanted to claim he was not on the sides. I don’t
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 9, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Let�s be clear that I was merely suggesting that this would have to be the
                                fallback position of people who wanted to claim he was not on the sides. I
                                don�t think they have another one.


                                on 08/03/2012 16:06, John McCusker at ory1886@... wrote:

                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview
                                > with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn't on.
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: Howard Rye <howard@...
                                > <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk> >
                                > To: red hot jazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> >
                                > Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:03 AM
                                > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filh�
                                >
                                >
                                > �
                                > Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
                                > was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                                > misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.
                                >
                                > Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
                                > can�t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).
                                >
                                > I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
                                > hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
                                > much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
                                > have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it�s hard to see what
                                > Russell�s motives might have been.
                                >
                                >> >
                                >
                                > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                                > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                howard@...
                                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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