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Re: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé (was Oscar 'Bernie' Young)

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  • Howard Rye
    As I did this in quite a hurry I have rechcked it and he is definitely stated to be 46. He has a wife named Sidonia, who is 40, and a son (presumably in fact a
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 2, 2012
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      As I did this in quite a hurry I have rechcked it and he is definitely
      stated to be 46. He has a wife named Sidonia, who is 40, and a son
      (presumably in fact a step-son) named Phillip Duminie, who is 8. She is
      Mississippi-born. The son is Louisiana-born. Mother and so are enumerated as
      mulattos, whereas Filhé and the Young¹s are enumerated as black, but this
      means nothing in terms of anything now comprehensible.

      Neither of the two Oscar Young¹s born in Louisiana in 1898/9 who can be
      easily found in the 1910 census is obviously our man.




      on 02/03/2012 14:56, fearfeasa at fearfeasa@... wrote:

      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your report that Bernie Young and his wife were George Filhé's lodgers
      > in January 1920 is most interesting, Howard. If, as stated, Filhé was 46
      > in Jan 1920, he was born in 1873, which makes him a good decade older
      > than is generally reckoned.
      >
      > Filhé is best remembered as a member of Oliver's Dixie Syncopators;
      > although Rust doesn't credit him as having played on any of their
      > recordings (or on any recordings at all, in fact), he is present in one
      > of their studio group portraits. Joe Oliver was born in 1885, so Filhé
      > was his senior by 12 years. Ory, who is credited as the Dixie
      > Syncopators' trombonist and who is generally regarded as the New Orleans
      > ur-trombonist, wasn't born until Christmas Day 1886. Roy Palmer, often
      > mentioned in the same breath as Ory, was a youngster: he wasn't born
      > until 1892. Any further information about George Filhé would be most
      > welcome.
      >
      > J.T. Dyamond
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      howard@...
      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • fearfeasa
      Thanks for that info, Howard. George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 2, 2012
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        Thanks for that info, Howard.

        George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
        there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
        is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
        while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
        shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
        recordings…

        By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
        racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
        for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
        reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
        "white".)

        The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
        certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest — unless "Duminie" is
        a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
        helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
        George, if he is the step-father.

        Thanks again for the information you've provided.

        J.T.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John McCusker
        Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver s Dixe Syncopators in the fall of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended. Armstrong asked for more
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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          Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended. Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.



          ________________________________
          From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 7:24 PM
          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé (was Oscar 'Bernie' Young)


           
          Thanks for that info, Howard.

          George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
          there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
          is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
          while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
          shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
          recordings…

          By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
          racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
          for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
          reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
          "white".)

          The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
          certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest — unless "Duminie" is
          a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
          helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
          George, if he is the step-father.

          Thanks again for the information you've provided.

          J.T.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John McCusker
          Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here s a link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone. It s from, a handbill
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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            Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone. It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many of you may be unfamiliar with.



            ________________________________
            From: John McCusker <ory1886@...>
            To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
            Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band


             
            Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended. Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.

            ________________________________
            From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
            To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 7:24 PM
            Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé (was Oscar 'Bernie' Young)


             
            Thanks for that info, Howard.

            George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
            there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
            is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
            while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
            shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
            recordings…

            By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
            racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
            for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
            reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
            "white".)

            The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
            certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest — unless "Duminie" is
            a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
            helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
            George, if he is the step-father.

            Thanks again for the information you've provided.

            J.T.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • John McCusker
            Sorry, my bad. Here s the good link: http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html ________________________________ From: John McCusker
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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              Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link: http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html



              ________________________________
              From: John McCusker <ory1886@...>
              To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
              Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band


               
              Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone. It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many of you may be unfamiliar with.

              ________________________________
              From: John McCusker <ory1886@...>
              To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
              Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band


               
              Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended. Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.

              ________________________________
              From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 7:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé (was Oscar 'Bernie' Young)

               
              Thanks for that info, Howard.

              George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
              there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
              is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
              while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
              shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
              recordings…

              By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
              racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
              for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
              reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
              "white".)

              The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
              certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest — unless "Duminie" is
              a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
              helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
              George, if he is the step-father.

              Thanks again for the information you've provided.

              J.T.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Duncan
              Marriage record for George Filhe and Sidonia Dumini - 1894 http://www.hancockcountyhistoricalsociety.com/reference/recordchurch_m.htm?id=OM-0787
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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                Marriage record for George Filhe and Sidonia Dumini - 1894
                http://www.hancockcountyhistoricalsociety.com/reference/recordchurch_m.htm?id=OM-0787

                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks for that info, Howard.
                >
                > George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
                > there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
                > is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
                > while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
                > shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
                > recordings…
                >
                > By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
                > racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
                > for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
                > reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
                > "white".)
                >
                > The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
                > certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest â€" unless "Duminie" is
                > a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
                > helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
                > George, if he is the step-father.
                >
                > Thanks again for the information you've provided.
                >
                > J.T.
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • fearfeasa
                Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it s the same photo as featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The personnels as
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 6, 2012
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                  Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it's the same photo as
                  featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The
                  personnels as seen in the photos of the Syncopators (i.e., the three
                  studio photos, all from the one date, and this one taken on the
                  bandstand, probably in early 1927) are hard to reconcile with the
                  personnels as given in Rust.

                  The studio photos, which include Filhé, have a reed section of Howard,
                  Nicholas and Bigard. According to the Rust personnels, Howard replaced
                  Billy Paige sometime between the recording session of 29 May 2006 and
                  that of 23 July 1926. By the session of 17 September, Albert Nicholas
                  had left. Ory is present according to Rust on all of the Syncopators'
                  recording sessions until 27 April 1927.

                  Aurally, I think we can say with absolute confidence that Ory was with
                  the Syncopators by the time of the session of 29 May 1926. The trombone
                  solo on /Sugar Foot Stomp/ from that session includes the signature
                  phrase which I count as Ory's all-time favourite, which he used
                  throughout his whole career, and which I have never heard from any of
                  his contemporaries. In the sessions prior to that, there is little to
                  suggest Ory in the trombone work; although the solo on /Snag It/ sounds
                  like him with regard to tone, it is just a rendition of the stock solo
                  (which he originated with the Creole JB, certainly) and is pretty much
                  identical on both takes.

                  What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
                  been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 —
                  provided there was one other personnel change, namely, Darnell Howard
                  replacing Billy Paige earlier than is usually reckoned.

                  Howard's recent post — "Published personnels for the Dixie Syncopators
                  came originally from Luis
Russell and Omer Simeon. On some sessions at
                  least Ory identified himself (and Jimmy Archey also identified himself
                  on later sides)" — is intriguing in this context. I'm willing to bet
                  that the IDs for the earliest sessions were at best a little hazy.

                  JT



                  Ar 03/03/12 19:23 :07, scríobh John McCusker:
                  >
                  > Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link:
                  > http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                  > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                  > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                  > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
                  > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a
                  > link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone.
                  > It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played
                  > there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on
                  > the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many
                  > of you may be unfamiliar with.
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                  > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                  > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                  > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
                  > Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band
                  >
                  >
                  > Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall
                  > of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended.
                  > Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at
                  > the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his
                  > notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While
                  > in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written
                  > parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a
                  > mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John McCusker
                  What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 — Sorry but I think
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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                    "What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
                    been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 — "


                    Sorry but I think that's a bridge too far. The Dixie Syncopators sides are without question Kid Ory- From the early "Too Bad," "Snag It" sides through to "Black Snake Blues." That muted solo on "Sugerfoot Stomp" alone should put that idea to rest.  Filhe was replaced in the Oliver band because by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore.Further, Ory had these records in his personal collection along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides.
                    John McCusker




                    ________________________________
                    From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                    To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:07 PM
                    Subject: Re: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators


                     
                    Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it's the same photo as
                    featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The
                    personnels as seen in the photos of the Syncopators (i.e., the three
                    studio photos, all from the one date, and this one taken on the
                    bandstand, probably in early 1927) are hard to reconcile with the
                    personnels as given in Rust.

                    The studio photos, which include Filhé, have a reed section of Howard,
                    Nicholas and Bigard. According to the Rust personnels, Howard replaced
                    Billy Paige sometime between the recording session of 29 May 2006 and
                    that of 23 July 1926. By the session of 17 September, Albert Nicholas
                    had left. Ory is present according to Rust on all of the Syncopators'
                    recording sessions until 27 April 1927.

                    Aurally, I think we can say with absolute confidence that Ory was with
                    the Syncopators by the time of the session of 29 May 1926. The trombone
                    solo on /Sugar Foot Stomp/ from that session includes the signature
                    phrase which I count as Ory's all-time favourite, which he used
                    throughout his whole career, and which I have never heard from any of
                    his contemporaries. In the sessions prior to that, there is little to
                    suggest Ory in the trombone work; although the solo on /Snag It/ sounds
                    like him with regard to tone, it is just a rendition of the stock solo
                    (which he originated with the Creole JB, certainly) and is pretty much
                    identical on both takes.

                    What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
                    been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 —
                    provided there was one other personnel change, namely, Darnell Howard
                    replacing Billy Paige earlier than is usually reckoned.

                    Howard's recent post — "Published personnels for the Dixie Syncopators
                    came originally from Luis
Russell and Omer Simeon. On some sessions at
                    least Ory identified himself (and Jimmy Archey also identified himself
                    on later sides)" — is intriguing in this context. I'm willing to bet
                    that the IDs for the earliest sessions were at best a little hazy.

                    JT

                    Ar 03/03/12 19:23 :07, scríobh John McCusker:
                    >
                    > Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link:
                    > http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                    > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                    > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                    > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
                    > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a
                    > link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone.
                    > It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played
                    > there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on
                    > the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many
                    > of you may be unfamiliar with.
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                    > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                    > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                    > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
                    > Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band
                    >
                    >
                    > Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall
                    > of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended.
                    > Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at
                    > the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his
                    > notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While
                    > in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written
                    > parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a
                    > mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • fearfeasa
                    For goodness sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone playing on the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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                      For goodness' sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot
                      Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone
                      playing on the Dixie Syncopators sides recorded BEFORE that date might
                      not be by Ory.

                      You state in this post: "Filhe was replaced in the Oliver band because
                      by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." When and where did
                      Filhé "admit" that ?

                      In a previous post you stated, " Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe
                      played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to
                      fade." Of course Ory would say that, or something similar — he'd just
                      put the man out of work, after all — but when and where did Ory say this ?

                      The Ory on sax idea is an interesting one, too. He is also reported to
                      have played sax in the late 30s or early 40s when he was down on the
                      chicken farm, but it's rather difficult to pin down any of these reports.

                      You also say that " Ory had these records in his personal collection
                      along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides." But which records are
                      "these records" ? Are you stating categorically that Ory had copies of
                      /Too Bad/, /Snag It/, /Deep Henderson/ and /Jackass Blues/ in his
                      personal collection as examples of his own playing ?

                      You also completely ignore the problem of the changing personnel in the
                      reed section. Filhé was photographed in a studio band portrait session
                      along with Darnell Howard, Albert Nicholas and Barney Bigard, the three
                      of whom did not supposedly come together into the Syncopators until
                      AFTER Ory had replaced Filhé.

                      Let's try and sort the history out — as impartially as possible.

                      JT



                      Ar 07/03/12 12:58 :06, scríobh John McCusker:
                      >
                      > "What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
                      > been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 — "
                      >
                      > Sorry but I think that's a bridge too far. The Dixie Syncopators sides
                      > are without question Kid Ory- From the early "Too Bad," "Snag It"
                      > sides through to "Black Snake Blues." That muted solo on "Sugerfoot
                      > Stomp" alone should put that idea to rest. Filhe was replaced in the
                      > Oliver band because by his own admission he couldn't cut it
                      > anymore.Further, Ory had these records in his personal collection
                      > along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides.
                      > John McCusker
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@... <mailto:fearfeasa%40me.com>>
                      > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:07 PM
                      > Subject: Re: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it's the same photo as
                      > featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The
                      > personnels as seen in the photos of the Syncopators (i.e., the three
                      > studio photos, all from the one date, and this one taken on the
                      > bandstand, probably in early 1927) are hard to reconcile with the
                      > personnels as given in Rust.
                      >
                      > The studio photos, which include Filhé, have a reed section of Howard,
                      > Nicholas and Bigard. According to the Rust personnels, Howard replaced
                      > Billy Paige sometime between the recording session of 29 May 2006 and
                      > that of 23 July 1926. By the session of 17 September, Albert Nicholas
                      > had left. Ory is present according to Rust on all of the Syncopators'
                      > recording sessions until 27 April 1927.
                      >
                      > Aurally, I think we can say with absolute confidence that Ory was with
                      > the Syncopators by the time of the session of 29 May 1926. The trombone
                      > solo on /Sugar Foot Stomp/ from that session includes the signature
                      > phrase which I count as Ory's all-time favourite, which he used
                      > throughout his whole career, and which I have never heard from any of
                      > his contemporaries. In the sessions prior to that, there is little to
                      > suggest Ory in the trombone work; although the solo on /Snag It/ sounds
                      > like him with regard to tone, it is just a rendition of the stock solo
                      > (which he originated with the Creole JB, certainly) and is pretty much
                      > identical on both takes.
                      >
                      > What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
                      > been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 —
                      > provided there was one other personnel change, namely, Darnell Howard
                      > replacing Billy Paige earlier than is usually reckoned.
                      >
                      > Howard's recent post — "Published personnels for the Dixie Syncopators
                      > came originally from Luis
Russell and Omer Simeon. On some sessions at
                      > least Ory identified himself (and Jimmy Archey also identified himself
                      > on later sides)" — is intriguing in this context. I'm willing to bet
                      > that the IDs for the earliest sessions were at best a little hazy.
                      >
                      > JT
                      >
                      > Ar 03/03/12 19:23 :07, scríobh John McCusker:
                      > >
                      > > Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link:
                      > > http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>
                      > <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                      > > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                      > > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                      > > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
                      > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a
                      > > link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone.
                      > > It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played
                      > > there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on
                      > > the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many
                      > > of you may be unfamiliar with.
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>
                      > <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                      > > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                      > > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                      > > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
                      > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall
                      > > of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended.
                      > > Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at
                      > > the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his
                      > > notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While
                      > > in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written
                      > > parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a
                      > > mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John McCusker
                      ________________________________ From: fearfeasa To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 8:19 AM Subject: Re:
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        ________________________________
                        From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 8:19 AM
                        Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Kid Ory on King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/Ory biography


                         
                        For goodness' sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot
                        Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone
                        playing on the Dixie Syncopators sides recorded BEFORE that date might
                        not be by Ory. 

                        "Much hotter than Filhe, the Kid became a mainstay of the brass section for the rest of the plantation engagement.
                        King Joe Oliver, Rust and Allen p. 17
                        Doesn't sound like anyone would ever confuse these two players.


                        You state in this post: "Filhe was replaced in the Oliver band because
                        by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." When and where did
                        Filhé "admit" that ?

                        King Joe Oliver, Rust and Allen p. 17
                        Filhe had an arrangement with Oliver.


                        In a previous post you stated, " Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe
                        played out his notice.


                        "The only time he ever played alto professionally was during the first six weeks he was with Oliver. George Fields (sic) then playing trombone with King Joe, had six weeks left on his contract. "
                        Jazz Information, Nov. 22, 1940, p. 7

                        You also say that " Ory had these records in his personal collection
                        along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides." But which records are
                        "these records" ? Are you stating categorically that Ory had copies of
                        /Too Bad/, /Snag It/, /Deep Henderson/ and /Jackass Blues/ in his
                        personal collection as examples of his own playing ?
                        Yes. I went through his records years ago and he had amassed  reissues of his recording with Oliver, Armstrong and Morton. Little else in his collection.

                        You also completely ignore the problem of the changing personnel in the
                        reed section. Filhé was photographed in a studio band portrait session
                        along with Darnell Howard, Albert Nicholas and Barney Bigard, the three
                        of whom did not supposedly come together into the Syncopators until
                        AFTER Ory had replaced Filhé.

                        Perhaps the problem above is the word "supposedly."Someone is obviously mistaken.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Bob Smith
                        Dear JT, ... by his own admission he couldn t cut it anymore. is probably a paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of King Joe
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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                          Dear JT,

                          " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
                          "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in and took his place."

                          Kind Regards

                          Bob Smith


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • fearfeasa
                          Thanks, Bob. I can t find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a bit odd, isn t it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as for having an
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 7, 2012
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                            Thanks, Bob. I can't find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a
                            bit odd, isn't it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as
                            for having "an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear
                            started to go" --- from these words you'd think they'd been playing
                            together for a few decades instead of a few months. Definitely a strange
                            choice of words by the authors. I'd like to find their original source.

                            When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
                            collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
                            these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
                            the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
                            tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without. Let me
                            say it again: there is no evidence (apart from dodgy aural
                            identification), that Ory played on the first couple of Syncopators'
                            recording sessions. He may have done --- but then again, he may not
                            have... It's fun to speculate.

                            JT

                            Ar 07/03/12 15:33 :23, scríobh Bob Smith:
                            >
                            > Dear JT,
                            >
                            > " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a
                            > paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of
                            > 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
                            > "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that
                            > he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was
                            > time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in
                            > and took his place."
                            >
                            > Kind Regards
                            >
                            > Bob Smith
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Howard Rye
                            Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 8, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
                              was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                              misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.

                              Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
                              can¹t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).

                              I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
                              hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
                              much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
                              have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it¹s hard to see what
                              Russell¹s motives might have been.

                              >


                              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                              howard@...
                              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • John McCusker
                              Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn t on.
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 8, 2012
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                                Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn't on.



                                ________________________________
                                From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                                To: red hot jazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:03 AM
                                Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filhé


                                 
                                Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
                                was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                                misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.

                                Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
                                can¹t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).

                                I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
                                hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
                                much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
                                have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it¹s hard to see what
                                Russell¹s motives might have been.

                                >

                                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                howard@...
                                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • John McCusker
                                When John said he d seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory s collection, I thought at first he meant he d seen original 78s of all these items; but
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 8, 2012
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                                  "When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
                                  collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
                                  these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
                                  the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
                                  tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without."

                                  I saw 78 reissues, not LPs. If I can find the inventory I did back in 2000 I'll share it with the group.

                                  John



                                  ________________________________
                                  From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                                  To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 5:45 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filhé


                                   
                                  Thanks, Bob. I can't find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a
                                  bit odd, isn't it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as
                                  for having "an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear
                                  started to go" --- from these words you'd think they'd been playing
                                  together for a few decades instead of a few months. Definitely a strange
                                  choice of words by the authors. I'd like to find their original source.

                                  When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
                                  collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
                                  these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
                                  the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
                                  tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without. Let me
                                  say it again: there is no evidence (apart from dodgy aural
                                  identification), that Ory played on the first couple of Syncopators'
                                  recording sessions. He may have done --- but then again, he may not
                                  have... It's fun to speculate.

                                  JT

                                  Ar 07/03/12 15:33 :23, scríobh Bob Smith:
                                  >
                                  > Dear JT,
                                  >
                                  > " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a
                                  > paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of
                                  > 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
                                  > "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that
                                  > he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was
                                  > time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in
                                  > and took his place."
                                  >
                                  > Kind Regards
                                  >
                                  > Bob Smith
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Howard Rye
                                  Let’s be clear that I was merely suggesting that this would have to be the fallback position of people who wanted to claim he was not on the sides. I don’t
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 9, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Let�s be clear that I was merely suggesting that this would have to be the
                                    fallback position of people who wanted to claim he was not on the sides. I
                                    don�t think they have another one.


                                    on 08/03/2012 16:06, John McCusker at ory1886@... wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview
                                    > with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn't on.
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: Howard Rye <howard@...
                                    > <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk> >
                                    > To: red hot jazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                    > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> >
                                    > Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:03 AM
                                    > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filh�
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > �
                                    > Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
                                    > was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                                    > misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.
                                    >
                                    > Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
                                    > can�t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).
                                    >
                                    > I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
                                    > hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
                                    > much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
                                    > have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it�s hard to see what
                                    > Russell�s motives might have been.
                                    >
                                    >> >
                                    >
                                    > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                    > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                                    > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                    howard@...
                                    Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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