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Re: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé (was Oscar 'Bern ie' Young)

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  • fearfeasa
    Your report that Bernie Young and his wife were George Filhé s lodgers in January 1920 is most interesting, Howard. If, as stated, Filhé was 46 in Jan 1920,
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 2 6:56 AM
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      Your report that Bernie Young and his wife were George Filhé's lodgers
      in January 1920 is most interesting, Howard. If, as stated, Filhé was 46
      in Jan 1920, he was born in 1873, which makes him a good decade older
      than is generally reckoned.

      Filhé is best remembered as a member of Oliver's Dixie Syncopators;
      although Rust doesn't credit him as having played on any of their
      recordings (or on any recordings at all, in fact), he is present in one
      of their studio group portraits. Joe Oliver was born in 1885, so Filhé
      was his senior by 12 years. Ory, who is credited as the Dixie
      Syncopators' trombonist and who is generally regarded as the New Orleans
      ur-trombonist, wasn't born until Christmas Day 1886. Roy Palmer, often
      mentioned in the same breath as Ory, was a youngster: he wasn't born
      until 1892. Any further information about George Filhé would be most
      welcome.

      J.T. Dyamond






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Howard Rye
      As I did this in quite a hurry I have rechcked it and he is definitely stated to be 46. He has a wife named Sidonia, who is 40, and a son (presumably in fact a
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 2 10:56 AM
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        As I did this in quite a hurry I have rechcked it and he is definitely
        stated to be 46. He has a wife named Sidonia, who is 40, and a son
        (presumably in fact a step-son) named Phillip Duminie, who is 8. She is
        Mississippi-born. The son is Louisiana-born. Mother and so are enumerated as
        mulattos, whereas Filhé and the Young¹s are enumerated as black, but this
        means nothing in terms of anything now comprehensible.

        Neither of the two Oscar Young¹s born in Louisiana in 1898/9 who can be
        easily found in the 1910 census is obviously our man.




        on 02/03/2012 14:56, fearfeasa at fearfeasa@... wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your report that Bernie Young and his wife were George Filhé's lodgers
        > in January 1920 is most interesting, Howard. If, as stated, Filhé was 46
        > in Jan 1920, he was born in 1873, which makes him a good decade older
        > than is generally reckoned.
        >
        > Filhé is best remembered as a member of Oliver's Dixie Syncopators;
        > although Rust doesn't credit him as having played on any of their
        > recordings (or on any recordings at all, in fact), he is present in one
        > of their studio group portraits. Joe Oliver was born in 1885, so Filhé
        > was his senior by 12 years. Ory, who is credited as the Dixie
        > Syncopators' trombonist and who is generally regarded as the New Orleans
        > ur-trombonist, wasn't born until Christmas Day 1886. Roy Palmer, often
        > mentioned in the same breath as Ory, was a youngster: he wasn't born
        > until 1892. Any further information about George Filhé would be most
        > welcome.
        >
        > J.T. Dyamond
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • fearfeasa
        Thanks for that info, Howard. George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 2 5:24 PM
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          Thanks for that info, Howard.

          George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
          there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
          is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
          while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
          shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
          recordings…

          By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
          racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
          for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
          reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
          "white".)

          The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
          certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest — unless "Duminie" is
          a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
          helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
          George, if he is the step-father.

          Thanks again for the information you've provided.

          J.T.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John McCusker
          Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver s Dixe Syncopators in the fall of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended. Armstrong asked for more
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 3 11:13 AM
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            Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended. Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.



            ________________________________
            From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
            To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 7:24 PM
            Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé (was Oscar 'Bernie' Young)


             
            Thanks for that info, Howard.

            George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
            there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
            is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
            while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
            shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
            recordings…

            By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
            racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
            for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
            reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
            "white".)

            The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
            certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest — unless "Duminie" is
            a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
            helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
            George, if he is the step-father.

            Thanks again for the information you've provided.

            J.T.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • John McCusker
            Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here s a link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone. It s from, a handbill
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 3 11:21 AM
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              Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone. It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many of you may be unfamiliar with.



              ________________________________
              From: John McCusker <ory1886@...>
              To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
              Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band


               
              Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended. Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.

              ________________________________
              From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 7:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé (was Oscar 'Bernie' Young)


               
              Thanks for that info, Howard.

              George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
              there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
              is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
              while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
              shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
              recordings…

              By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
              racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
              for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
              reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
              "white".)

              The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
              certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest — unless "Duminie" is
              a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
              helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
              George, if he is the step-father.

              Thanks again for the information you've provided.

              J.T.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John McCusker
              Sorry, my bad. Here s the good link: http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html ________________________________ From: John McCusker
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 3 11:23 AM
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                Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link: http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html



                ________________________________
                From: John McCusker <ory1886@...>
                To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
                Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band


                 
                Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone. It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many of you may be unfamiliar with.

                ________________________________
                From: John McCusker <ory1886@...>
                To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
                Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band


                 
                Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended. Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.

                ________________________________
                From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 7:24 PM
                Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé (was Oscar 'Bernie' Young)

                 
                Thanks for that info, Howard.

                George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
                there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
                is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
                while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
                shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
                recordings…

                By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
                racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
                for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
                reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
                "white".)

                The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
                certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest — unless "Duminie" is
                a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
                helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
                George, if he is the step-father.

                Thanks again for the information you've provided.

                J.T.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Duncan
                Marriage record for George Filhe and Sidonia Dumini - 1894 http://www.hancockcountyhistoricalsociety.com/reference/recordchurch_m.htm?id=OM-0787
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 3 1:11 PM
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                  Marriage record for George Filhe and Sidonia Dumini - 1894
                  http://www.hancockcountyhistoricalsociety.com/reference/recordchurch_m.htm?id=OM-0787

                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks for that info, Howard.
                  >
                  > George Filhé is one musician who has always aroused my curiosity. He was
                  > there and thereabouts with all the big-name musicians of his day and yet
                  > is not known to have recorded. It has always seemed strange to me that
                  > while Filhé is the trombonist in the studio photographs (three variant
                  > shots from the one session), Ory is credited with /all/ the Syncopators'
                  > recordings…
                  >
                  > By the way, the trombonist in those photographs is obviously what the
                  > racially segregated South would have termed a "colored creole." So much
                  > for the racial categories on official documents of the time. (I'm
                  > reminded of Jimmy O'Bryant's death certificate, which described him as
                  > "white".)
                  >
                  > The naming of Filhé's son as "Phillip Duminie" is interesting, too. He
                  > certainly appears to be a step-son as you suggest â€" unless "Duminie" is
                  > a middle name ? The fact that he was 8 years old but born in the south
                  > helps us to date his mother's move north, and also her marriage to
                  > George, if he is the step-father.
                  >
                  > Thanks again for the information you've provided.
                  >
                  > J.T.
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • fearfeasa
                  Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it s the same photo as featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The personnels as
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 6 4:07 PM
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                    Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it's the same photo as
                    featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The
                    personnels as seen in the photos of the Syncopators (i.e., the three
                    studio photos, all from the one date, and this one taken on the
                    bandstand, probably in early 1927) are hard to reconcile with the
                    personnels as given in Rust.

                    The studio photos, which include Filhé, have a reed section of Howard,
                    Nicholas and Bigard. According to the Rust personnels, Howard replaced
                    Billy Paige sometime between the recording session of 29 May 2006 and
                    that of 23 July 1926. By the session of 17 September, Albert Nicholas
                    had left. Ory is present according to Rust on all of the Syncopators'
                    recording sessions until 27 April 1927.

                    Aurally, I think we can say with absolute confidence that Ory was with
                    the Syncopators by the time of the session of 29 May 1926. The trombone
                    solo on /Sugar Foot Stomp/ from that session includes the signature
                    phrase which I count as Ory's all-time favourite, which he used
                    throughout his whole career, and which I have never heard from any of
                    his contemporaries. In the sessions prior to that, there is little to
                    suggest Ory in the trombone work; although the solo on /Snag It/ sounds
                    like him with regard to tone, it is just a rendition of the stock solo
                    (which he originated with the Creole JB, certainly) and is pretty much
                    identical on both takes.

                    What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
                    been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 —
                    provided there was one other personnel change, namely, Darnell Howard
                    replacing Billy Paige earlier than is usually reckoned.

                    Howard's recent post — "Published personnels for the Dixie Syncopators
                    came originally from Luis
Russell and Omer Simeon. On some sessions at
                    least Ory identified himself (and Jimmy Archey also identified himself
                    on later sides)" — is intriguing in this context. I'm willing to bet
                    that the IDs for the earliest sessions were at best a little hazy.

                    JT



                    Ar 03/03/12 19:23 :07, scríobh John McCusker:
                    >
                    > Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link:
                    > http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                    > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                    > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                    > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
                    > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a
                    > link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone.
                    > It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played
                    > there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on
                    > the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many
                    > of you may be unfamiliar with.
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                    > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                    > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                    > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
                    > Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band
                    >
                    >
                    > Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall
                    > of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended.
                    > Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at
                    > the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his
                    > notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While
                    > in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written
                    > parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a
                    > mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • John McCusker
                    What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 — Sorry but I think
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 7 4:58 AM
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                      "What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
                      been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 — "


                      Sorry but I think that's a bridge too far. The Dixie Syncopators sides are without question Kid Ory- From the early "Too Bad," "Snag It" sides through to "Black Snake Blues." That muted solo on "Sugerfoot Stomp" alone should put that idea to rest.  Filhe was replaced in the Oliver band because by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore.Further, Ory had these records in his personal collection along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides.
                      John McCusker




                      ________________________________
                      From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:07 PM
                      Subject: Re: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators


                       
                      Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it's the same photo as
                      featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The
                      personnels as seen in the photos of the Syncopators (i.e., the three
                      studio photos, all from the one date, and this one taken on the
                      bandstand, probably in early 1927) are hard to reconcile with the
                      personnels as given in Rust.

                      The studio photos, which include Filhé, have a reed section of Howard,
                      Nicholas and Bigard. According to the Rust personnels, Howard replaced
                      Billy Paige sometime between the recording session of 29 May 2006 and
                      that of 23 July 1926. By the session of 17 September, Albert Nicholas
                      had left. Ory is present according to Rust on all of the Syncopators'
                      recording sessions until 27 April 1927.

                      Aurally, I think we can say with absolute confidence that Ory was with
                      the Syncopators by the time of the session of 29 May 1926. The trombone
                      solo on /Sugar Foot Stomp/ from that session includes the signature
                      phrase which I count as Ory's all-time favourite, which he used
                      throughout his whole career, and which I have never heard from any of
                      his contemporaries. In the sessions prior to that, there is little to
                      suggest Ory in the trombone work; although the solo on /Snag It/ sounds
                      like him with regard to tone, it is just a rendition of the stock solo
                      (which he originated with the Creole JB, certainly) and is pretty much
                      identical on both takes.

                      What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
                      been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 —
                      provided there was one other personnel change, namely, Darnell Howard
                      replacing Billy Paige earlier than is usually reckoned.

                      Howard's recent post — "Published personnels for the Dixie Syncopators
                      came originally from Luis
Russell and Omer Simeon. On some sessions at
                      least Ory identified himself (and Jimmy Archey also identified himself
                      on later sides)" — is intriguing in this context. I'm willing to bet
                      that the IDs for the earliest sessions were at best a little hazy.

                      JT

                      Ar 03/03/12 19:23 :07, scríobh John McCusker:
                      >
                      > Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link:
                      > http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                      > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                      > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                      > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
                      > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a
                      > link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone.
                      > It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played
                      > there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on
                      > the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many
                      > of you may be unfamiliar with.
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                      > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                      > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                      > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
                      > Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band
                      >
                      >
                      > Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall
                      > of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended.
                      > Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at
                      > the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his
                      > notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While
                      > in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written
                      > parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a
                      > mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • fearfeasa
                      For goodness sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone playing on the
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 7 6:19 AM
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                        For goodness' sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot
                        Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone
                        playing on the Dixie Syncopators sides recorded BEFORE that date might
                        not be by Ory.

                        You state in this post: "Filhe was replaced in the Oliver band because
                        by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." When and where did
                        Filhé "admit" that ?

                        In a previous post you stated, " Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe
                        played out his notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to
                        fade." Of course Ory would say that, or something similar — he'd just
                        put the man out of work, after all — but when and where did Ory say this ?

                        The Ory on sax idea is an interesting one, too. He is also reported to
                        have played sax in the late 30s or early 40s when he was down on the
                        chicken farm, but it's rather difficult to pin down any of these reports.

                        You also say that " Ory had these records in his personal collection
                        along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides." But which records are
                        "these records" ? Are you stating categorically that Ory had copies of
                        /Too Bad/, /Snag It/, /Deep Henderson/ and /Jackass Blues/ in his
                        personal collection as examples of his own playing ?

                        You also completely ignore the problem of the changing personnel in the
                        reed section. Filhé was photographed in a studio band portrait session
                        along with Darnell Howard, Albert Nicholas and Barney Bigard, the three
                        of whom did not supposedly come together into the Syncopators until
                        AFTER Ory had replaced Filhé.

                        Let's try and sort the history out — as impartially as possible.

                        JT



                        Ar 07/03/12 12:58 :06, scríobh John McCusker:
                        >
                        > "What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
                        > been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 — "
                        >
                        > Sorry but I think that's a bridge too far. The Dixie Syncopators sides
                        > are without question Kid Ory- From the early "Too Bad," "Snag It"
                        > sides through to "Black Snake Blues." That muted solo on "Sugerfoot
                        > Stomp" alone should put that idea to rest. Filhe was replaced in the
                        > Oliver band because by his own admission he couldn't cut it
                        > anymore.Further, Ory had these records in his personal collection
                        > along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides.
                        > John McCusker
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@... <mailto:fearfeasa%40me.com>>
                        > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:07 PM
                        > Subject: Re: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks for the link to the photo, John. In fact, it's the same photo as
                        > featured on the Decca Ace of Hearts LP issue from the early 1960s. The
                        > personnels as seen in the photos of the Syncopators (i.e., the three
                        > studio photos, all from the one date, and this one taken on the
                        > bandstand, probably in early 1927) are hard to reconcile with the
                        > personnels as given in Rust.
                        >
                        > The studio photos, which include Filhé, have a reed section of Howard,
                        > Nicholas and Bigard. According to the Rust personnels, Howard replaced
                        > Billy Paige sometime between the recording session of 29 May 2006 and
                        > that of 23 July 1926. By the session of 17 September, Albert Nicholas
                        > had left. Ory is present according to Rust on all of the Syncopators'
                        > recording sessions until 27 April 1927.
                        >
                        > Aurally, I think we can say with absolute confidence that Ory was with
                        > the Syncopators by the time of the session of 29 May 1926. The trombone
                        > solo on /Sugar Foot Stomp/ from that session includes the signature
                        > phrase which I count as Ory's all-time favourite, which he used
                        > throughout his whole career, and which I have never heard from any of
                        > his contemporaries. In the sessions prior to that, there is little to
                        > suggest Ory in the trombone work; although the solo on /Snag It/ sounds
                        > like him with regard to tone, it is just a rendition of the stock solo
                        > (which he originated with the Creole JB, certainly) and is pretty much
                        > identical on both takes.
                        >
                        > What I am saying then, is that it is quite possible for Filhé to have
                        > been on trombone still for the sessions of March and April 1926 —
                        > provided there was one other personnel change, namely, Darnell Howard
                        > replacing Billy Paige earlier than is usually reckoned.
                        >
                        > Howard's recent post — "Published personnels for the Dixie Syncopators
                        > came originally from Luis
Russell and Omer Simeon. On some sessions at
                        > least Ory identified himself (and Jimmy Archey also identified himself
                        > on later sides)" — is intriguing in this context. I'm willing to bet
                        > that the IDs for the earliest sessions were at best a little hazy.
                        >
                        > JT
                        >
                        > Ar 03/03/12 19:23 :07, scríobh John McCusker:
                        > >
                        > > Sorry, my bad. Here's the good link:
                        > > http://www.fellers.se/Kid/1927_Oliver,_King_-_Dix_Sync..html
                        > >
                        > > ________________________________
                        > > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>
                        > <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                        > > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                        > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                        > > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                        > > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:21 PM
                        > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Picture of Ory in Oliver band
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Someone asked about a picture of the Oliver band with Ory. Here's a
                        > > link to a picture of the Oliver band featuring Kid Ory on trombone.
                        > > It's from, a handbill distributed in New York while the band played
                        > > there in 1927. The site, KidOry.com has lots of interesting stuff on
                        > > the trombonist and bandleader including memorabilia and pictures many
                        > > of you may be unfamiliar with.
                        > >
                        > > ________________________________
                        > > From: John McCusker <ory1886@... <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>
                        > <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com>>
                        > > To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                        > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>"
                        > > <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>>
                        > > Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 1:13 PM
                        > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] George Filhé and Kid Ory in Oliver band
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Kid Ory replaced Georhe Filhe in Oliver's Dixe Syncopators in the fall
                        > > of 1925 after his gig with Armstrong at the Sunset Cafe ended.
                        > > Armstrong asked for more money and was rejected. He went to play at
                        > > the Vendome and Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe played out his
                        > > notice. According to Ory, Filhe's hearing was starting to fade. While
                        > > in Oliver's band Ory took music lessons to better handle the written
                        > > parts . These records are the first recordings where Ory employs a
                        > > mute. Great records though generally afield of the New Orleans style.
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • John McCusker
                        ________________________________ From: fearfeasa To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 8:19 AM Subject: Re:
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 7 6:52 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          ________________________________
                          From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 8:19 AM
                          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Kid Ory on King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/Ory biography


                           
                          For goodness' sake, John, I specifically stated that the /Sugar Foot
                          Stomp/ solo was unmistakeably Ory !!! I was suggesting that trombone
                          playing on the Dixie Syncopators sides recorded BEFORE that date might
                          not be by Ory. 

                          "Much hotter than Filhe, the Kid became a mainstay of the brass section for the rest of the plantation engagement.
                          King Joe Oliver, Rust and Allen p. 17
                          Doesn't sound like anyone would ever confuse these two players.


                          You state in this post: "Filhe was replaced in the Oliver band because
                          by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." When and where did
                          Filhé "admit" that ?

                          King Joe Oliver, Rust and Allen p. 17
                          Filhe had an arrangement with Oliver.


                          In a previous post you stated, " Ory joined Oliver on sax while Filhe
                          played out his notice.


                          "The only time he ever played alto professionally was during the first six weeks he was with Oliver. George Fields (sic) then playing trombone with King Joe, had six weeks left on his contract. "
                          Jazz Information, Nov. 22, 1940, p. 7

                          You also say that " Ory had these records in his personal collection
                          along with the Hot 5 and Red Hot Pepper sides." But which records are
                          "these records" ? Are you stating categorically that Ory had copies of
                          /Too Bad/, /Snag It/, /Deep Henderson/ and /Jackass Blues/ in his
                          personal collection as examples of his own playing ?
                          Yes. I went through his records years ago and he had amassed  reissues of his recording with Oliver, Armstrong and Morton. Little else in his collection.

                          You also completely ignore the problem of the changing personnel in the
                          reed section. Filhé was photographed in a studio band portrait session
                          along with Darnell Howard, Albert Nicholas and Barney Bigard, the three
                          of whom did not supposedly come together into the Syncopators until
                          AFTER Ory had replaced Filhé.

                          Perhaps the problem above is the word "supposedly."Someone is obviously mistaken.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Bob Smith
                          Dear JT, ... by his own admission he couldn t cut it anymore. is probably a paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of King Joe
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 7 7:33 AM
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                            Dear JT,

                            " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
                            "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in and took his place."

                            Kind Regards

                            Bob Smith


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • fearfeasa
                            Thanks, Bob. I can t find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a bit odd, isn t it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as for having an
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 7 3:45 PM
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                              Thanks, Bob. I can't find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a
                              bit odd, isn't it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as
                              for having "an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear
                              started to go" --- from these words you'd think they'd been playing
                              together for a few decades instead of a few months. Definitely a strange
                              choice of words by the authors. I'd like to find their original source.

                              When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
                              collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
                              these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
                              the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
                              tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without. Let me
                              say it again: there is no evidence (apart from dodgy aural
                              identification), that Ory played on the first couple of Syncopators'
                              recording sessions. He may have done --- but then again, he may not
                              have... It's fun to speculate.

                              JT

                              Ar 07/03/12 15:33 :23, scríobh Bob Smith:
                              >
                              > Dear JT,
                              >
                              > " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a
                              > paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of
                              > 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
                              > "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that
                              > he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was
                              > time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in
                              > and took his place."
                              >
                              > Kind Regards
                              >
                              > Bob Smith
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Howard Rye
                              Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 8 12:03 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
                                was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                                misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.

                                Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
                                can¹t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).

                                I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
                                hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
                                much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
                                have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it¹s hard to see what
                                Russell¹s motives might have been.

                                >


                                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                howard@...
                                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • John McCusker
                                Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn t on.
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 8 8:06 AM
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                                  Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn't on.



                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                                  To: red hot jazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:03 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filhé


                                   
                                  Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
                                  was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                                  misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.

                                  Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
                                  can¹t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).

                                  I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
                                  hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
                                  much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
                                  have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it¹s hard to see what
                                  Russell¹s motives might have been.

                                  >

                                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                  howard@...
                                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • John McCusker
                                  When John said he d seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory s collection, I thought at first he meant he d seen original 78s of all these items; but
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 8 8:09 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    "When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
                                    collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
                                    these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
                                    the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
                                    tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without."

                                    I saw 78 reissues, not LPs. If I can find the inventory I did back in 2000 I'll share it with the group.

                                    John



                                    ________________________________
                                    From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                                    To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 5:45 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filhé


                                     
                                    Thanks, Bob. I can't find my copy of /King Joe Oliver/. That quote is a
                                    bit odd, isn't it ? Filhé was 52 in 1925, which is hardly old. And as
                                    for having "an understanding with Joe that he would leave when his ear
                                    started to go" --- from these words you'd think they'd been playing
                                    together for a few decades instead of a few months. Definitely a strange
                                    choice of words by the authors. I'd like to find their original source.

                                    When John said he'd seen copies of the Syncopators recordings in Ory's
                                    collection, I thought at first he meant he'd seen original 78s of all
                                    these items; but it seems twhat he saw were LP reissues --- presumably
                                    the 2-volume Decca Ace of Clubs set from the early 1960s, which had
                                    tracks from a number of sessions, some with Ory, some without. Let me
                                    say it again: there is no evidence (apart from dodgy aural
                                    identification), that Ory played on the first couple of Syncopators'
                                    recording sessions. He may have done --- but then again, he may not
                                    have... It's fun to speculate.

                                    JT

                                    Ar 07/03/12 15:33 :23, scríobh Bob Smith:
                                    >
                                    > Dear JT,
                                    >
                                    > " ... by his own admission he couldn't cut it anymore." is probably a
                                    > paraphrase of the statement in the 1957 Jazz Book Club edition of
                                    > 'King Joe Oliver' p. 17 (Allen / Rust), viz.:
                                    > "Filhe - ... - was getting old; he had an understanding with Joe that
                                    > he would leave when his ear started to go. So when Filhe felt it was
                                    > time to quit, he gave Oliver his notice, and Edward "Kid" Ory came in
                                    > and took his place."
                                    >
                                    > Kind Regards
                                    >
                                    > Bob Smith
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Howard Rye
                                    Let’s be clear that I was merely suggesting that this would have to be the fallback position of people who wanted to claim he was not on the sides. I don’t
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Mar 9 1:49 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Let�s be clear that I was merely suggesting that this would have to be the
                                      fallback position of people who wanted to claim he was not on the sides. I
                                      don�t think they have another one.


                                      on 08/03/2012 16:06, John McCusker at ory1886@... wrote:

                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Ory claim unearned glory? Perhaps about somethings but I have a 1940 interview
                                      > with him where he goes out of his way to point out sides he wasn't on.
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: Howard Rye <howard@...
                                      > <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk> >
                                      > To: red hot jazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                      > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> >
                                      > Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:03 AM
                                      > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver's Dixie Syncopators/George Filh�
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > �
                                      > Like it or not, Ory was identified on these sessions by Luis Russell, who
                                      > was there, and who was played the records by Walt Allen, a man not given to
                                      > misrepresenting what he had done to validate pet theories.
                                      >
                                      > Ory identified himself on Deep Henderson and Jackass when played them (I
                                      > can�t see any sign he was played Too Bad and Snag It and I wonder why not).
                                      >
                                      > I think it will take more compelling evidence than what anybody thinks they
                                      > hear to set this aside. This is a situation in which speculation is not so
                                      > much fun as a complete waste of time. I suppose one can argue that Ory might
                                      > have misidentified himself to claim some glory, but it�s hard to see what
                                      > Russell�s motives might have been.
                                      >
                                      >> >
                                      >
                                      > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                      > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                                      > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                      howard@...
                                      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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