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Re: [RedHotJazz] Ted Lewis etc.

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  • Mordechai Litzman
    some kind of duetting outside jazz might have inspired Louis and King Oliver. Around the turn of the last century every little town had their own brass band
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 19 4:30 PM
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      "some kind of duetting outside jazz might have inspired Louis and King Oliver."

      Around the turn of the last century every little town had their own brass band that would play for entertainment. (Apparently brass instruments were easy to obtain from dissolved army bands.) The Jack Daniels whiskey distillery employed a band called the Jack Daniels Silver Cornet Band to attract customers. Some thirty years ago I bought an LP with this title  from a general store in Lynchburg, TN. On it were selections of the brass music played at the turn of the century. The last track was a great cornet duet called "You and I" . Although not jazz, there is no doubt in my mind that this two cornet set-up could have influenced early jazz bands to us two cornets.



      ________________________________
      From: ROBERT R. CALDER <serapion@...>
      To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 6:18 PM
      Subject: [RedHotJazz] Ted Lewis etc.


       
      My most recent experience of a band not sounding like itself goes back a long way, though only to John Dankworth, and a Scottish television chat show. There was a big band under a staff MD and they played an intro, and may or may not have done quite a bit more. I have managed thankfully to forget.

      Then Dankworth appeared, and led them in a chart of his own, and even my disgust at what had gone on before deepened. Suddenly, and I mean suddenly, everything was right. previously there had been uninterested playing of a drab chart. Now there was full realisation of a good one.

      I can't for the life of me think why the same wouldn't happen if a group of musicians suddenly found themselves in a position to be appreciated, rather than brought in to supply commercial music like the majority of the sides under Marvin Smolev's name recorded by Cliff Jackson's band.

      My archives aren't to hand, but I note a Mal Hallett session which survived, but of which the jazz items were not issued, until for instance a CD issue from Edison archives. More than once upon a time  insufficient tameness put listeners off. So it's nice to think of Ted Lewis's band playing something too good for an audience that hindered the recording of a lot of music some of us could pine for.

      What are the respective takes of this Lewis number like?

      My own experience of different effects from the same original goes beyond jazz, actually to Caruso, and a duet with the vast-voiced Titta Ruffo. On all the vinyl I ever heard they sound to be bawling, but on a CD reissue all the control of voice and expression emerges, no longer mere blasting, Maybe some initial impressions of Freddie Keppard were lowered by a similar problem of sound loss.

      Loved the Charles Elgar, and the JRT Davies dubs! 

      and of course some kind of duetting outside jazz might have inspired Louis and King Oliver. Louis could hear and thus play the harmonies. As regards two trumpets or two cornets, a lot depends on the physical power and penetration integral to a trumpeter/ cornetist's style in respect of capacity to fill some venues.  I've seen the blood and heavy application of lip salve, even with microphone, and in the absence of microphones two cornets makes sense. Of course Oliver and Louis made more,
      praise be!

      Robert R. Calder

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • ALAN BOND
      Hi Folks,                Let s not forget that there are, and always were, many brass (and military bands) around the world who have virtuoso
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 20 12:42 AM
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        Hi Folks,
                       Let's not forget that there are, and always were, many brass (and military bands) around the world who have virtuoso musicians whose technique is quite spectacular, and around the time of the inception of jazz, there would have been many players who would have taken up playing the 'new' jazz to make a living, especially with most brass bands being amateur outfits. With this in mind I would think that the two cornet line up would have been picked up from the brass bands but with most of them barely making a living, it may have been too expensive for many bands to have a two cornet lineup. With Oliver in the promised land of Chicago he probably felt that it would be financially viable to have an extra horn in the front line and at the same time it would have made the band that bit louder in order to compete with the usual hubbub of most of the establishments in which they played, bearing in mind that amplification was a thing
        of the future. I quote an example from right here where I live in the west of England - my local club has live jazz about four times a month and one of the bands has a seven piece 'dixieland' lineup. Even in this fairly small venue (maximun capacity about 75 people) it is difficult to hear even the brass players over the general hubbub of conversation and this band uses extensive amplification. In the 1920s, how much more difficult would it have been to be heard in a venue with, say, 500 or even just 200 people chatting and laughing. Therein probably lies the reason for bands to gradually get bigger over the years until suitable amplification systems became avidiailable and then the smaller bands came back into their own as it was easier for them to be heard. Nowadays, of course, a drum machine and three idiots with guitars can create enough decibels to be heard for 500 miles and this from a box the size of a small attache case. I bet King Joe would
        have loved to have hadTHAT facility at the Lincoln Gardens.
        TTFN - 007


        ________________________________
        From: Mordechai Litzman <folke613@...>
        To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, 20 February 2012, 0:30
        Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Ted Lewis etc.

        "some kind of duetting outside jazz might have inspired Louis and King Oliver."

        Around the turn of the last century every little town had their own brass band that would play for entertainment. (Apparently brass instruments were easy to obtain from dissolved army bands.) The Jack Daniels whiskey distillery employed a band called the Jack Daniels Silver Cornet Band to attract customers. Some thirty years ago I bought an LP with this title  from a general store in Lynchburg, TN. On it were selections of the brass music played at the turn of the century. The last track was a great cornet duet called "You and I" . Although not jazz, there is no doubt in my mind that this two cornet set-up could have influenced early jazz bands to us two cornets.



        ________________________________
        From: ROBERT R. CALDER <serapion@...>
        To: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 6:18 PM
        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Ted Lewis etc.


         
        My most recent experience of a band not sounding like itself goes back a long way, though only to John Dankworth, and a Scottish television chat show. There was a big band under a staff MD and they played an intro, and may or may not have done quite a bit more. I have managed thankfully to forget.

        Then Dankworth appeared, and led them in a chart of his own, and even my disgust at what had gone on before deepened. Suddenly, and I mean suddenly, everything was right. previously there had been uninterested playing of a drab chart. Now there was full realisation of a good one.

        I can't for the life of me think why the same wouldn't happen if a group of musicians suddenly found themselves in a position to be appreciated, rather than brought in to supply commercial music like the majority of the sides under Marvin Smolev's name recorded by Cliff Jackson's band.

        My archives aren't to hand, but I note a Mal Hallett session which survived, but of which the jazz items were not issued, until for instance a CD issue from Edison archives. More than once upon a time  insufficient tameness put listeners off. So it's nice to think of Ted Lewis's band playing something too good for an audience that hindered the recording of a lot of music some of us could pine for.

        What are the respective takes of this Lewis number like?

        My own experience of different effects from the same original goes beyond jazz, actually to Caruso, and a duet with the vast-voiced Titta Ruffo. On all the vinyl I ever heard they sound to be bawling, but on a CD reissue all the control of voice and expression emerges, no longer mere blasting, Maybe some initial impressions of Freddie Keppard were lowered by a similar problem of sound loss.

        Loved the Charles Elgar, and the JRT Davies dubs! 

        and of course some kind of duetting outside jazz might have inspired Louis and King Oliver. Louis could hear and thus play the harmonies. As regards two trumpets or two cornets, a lot depends on the physical power and penetration integral to a trumpeter/ cornetist's style in respect of capacity to fill some venues.  I've seen the blood and heavy application of lip salve, even with microphone, and in the absence of microphones two cornets makes sense. Of course Oliver and Louis made more,
        praise be!

        Robert R. Calder

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • stevenabrams78jazz
        Thanks to Alan Bond. I think he is quite right. There once was a record shop in San Francisco owned by Norman Pierce, an unrecognized musician who was lucky to
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 20 10:36 AM
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          Thanks to Alan Bond.
          I think he is quite right.
          There once was a record shop in San Francisco owned by Norman Pierce,
          an unrecognized musician who was lucky to have lived in Chicago in the 1920s. He got to hear King Oliver live at the club and related
          to me that when he was inside the club the noice was so annoying
          that he could barely hear the trumpet and cornet but when he went
          outside both Oliver and Louis could be heard clearly and he said
          that both had very forceful blowing.


          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Folks,
          >                Let's not forget that there are, and always were, many brass (and military bands) around the world who have virtuoso musicians whose technique is quite spectacular, and around the time of the inception of jazz, there would have been many players who would have taken up playing the 'new' jazz to make a living, especially with most brass bands being amateur outfits. With this in mind I would think that the two cornet line up would have been picked up from the brass bands but with most of them barely making a living, it may have been too expensive for many bands to have a two cornet lineup. With Oliver in the promised land of Chicago he probably felt that it would be financially viable to have an extra horn in the front line and at the same time it would have made the band that bit louder in order to compete with the usual hubbub of most of the establishments in which they played, bearing in mind that amplification was a thing of the future.
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