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RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Oliver

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  • David Brown
    Hello Charles All good questions. I think why Oliver sent for Louis will always be open. Oliver left N.O. in Spring 1919 and, as far as I know, would not have
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 16, 2012
      Hello Charles


      All good questions. I think why Oliver sent for Louis will always be open.

      Oliver left N.O. in Spring 1919 and, as far as I know, would not have heard
      Louis again before he arrived in Chicago in Summer 1922. He must have heard
      reports on Louis but I suspect neither he, nor anybody else, was prepared
      for just how good Louis had become, better than Oliver himself. Oliver was
      Louis' mentor in N.O. and may have had a genuine interest in Louis' career
      but reports of the generosity and altruism of Oliver are ambiguous if not
      contradictory.

      There is, I think, no evidence that Oliver had dental problems as early as
      1922.

      There was also no tradition of two cornet front lines in previous N.O. jazz
      and it has been argued that this tandem is unnatural and unnecessary and
      worked only in this case because of the genius of Louis in instantly
      concocting a second part. Normally on the records Oliver is playing lead and
      Louis second.

      So, no answer. However, Rudy Jackson said Oliver was 'lazy' and left much of
      the work to Louis and there might lie the real prosaic answer.

      On the other hand, the two cornet innovation could be seen as another
      example of Oliver's musical creativity, vision and originality.

      There is no evidence of Louis contacting Oliver after their meeting. For the
      sad end of Oliver, read his letters in 'Hear Me Talkin' To Ya'.


      Dave



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    • John McCusker
      Agree with this post however despite Stella Oliver s statement that Joe left in early 1919 evidence puts Oliver in chicago in the summer of 1918. Sent from
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 16, 2012
        Agree with this post however despite Stella Oliver's statement that Joe left in early 1919 evidence puts Oliver in chicago in the summer of 1918.


        Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android



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      • ALAN BOND
        Hi Folks,                 I would suggest that Sam Morgan possibly took the idea of the two cornet front line on from Oliver but their first
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 16, 2012
          Hi Folks,

                          I would suggest that Sam Morgan possibly took the idea of the two cornet front line on from Oliver but their first recordings were not until 1927. Whether they were fronting with two cornets before Oliver I could not be certain but Sam Morgan is reputed to have had a band as early as 1921 and suffered a stroke around 1925 but carried on playing using Brother Ike on lead trumpet so it could be that the two cornet line up was of necessity rather than the influence of Oliver or perhaps a combination of the two.
          TTFN - 007


          ________________________________
          From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
          To: RedHotJazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, 16 February 2012, 16:18
          Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Oliver

          Hello Charles


          All good questions. I think why Oliver sent for Louis will always be open.

          Oliver left N.O. in Spring 1919 and, as far as I know, would not have heard
          Louis again before he arrived in Chicago in Summer 1922. He must have heard
          reports on Louis but I suspect neither he, nor anybody else, was prepared
          for just how good Louis had become, better than Oliver himself. Oliver
          was
          Louis' mentor in N.O. and may have had a genuine interest in Louis' career
          but reports of the generosity and altruism of Oliver are ambiguous if not
          contradictory.

          There is, I think, no evidence that Oliver had dental problems as early as
          1922.

          There was also no tradition of two cornet front lines in previous N.O. jazz
          and it has been argued that this tandem is unnatural and unnecessary and
          worked only in this case because of the genius of Louis in instantly
          concocting a second part. Normally on the records Oliver is playing lead and
          Louis second.

          So, no answer. However, Rudy Jackson said Oliver was 'lazy' and left much of
          the work to Louis and there might lie the real prosaic answer.

          On the other hand, the two cornet innovation could be seen as another
          example of Oliver's musical creativity, vision and originality.

          There is no evidence of Louis contacting Oliver after their meeting.
          For the
          sad end of Oliver, read his letters in 'Hear Me Talkin' To Ya'.


          Dave



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        • David Brown
          Hi John Always happy to be corrected. First Edition King Joe Oliver 1957 puts Oliver in Chicago early 1918. Chilton 1972 amends to c March 1919. What
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 16, 2012
            Hi John

            Always happy to be corrected.

            First Edition 'King Joe Oliver' 1957 puts Oliver in Chicago 'early' 1918.

            Chilton 1972 amends to c March 1919.

            What evidence do we have ?

            Dave


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • John McCusker
            Joe Oliver registered for the draft in September 1918 in Chicago. The document is available online. Ory said Oliver and Noone left New Orleans after the
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 16, 2012
              Joe Oliver registered for the draft in September 1918 in Chicago. The document is available online. Ory said Oliver and Noone left New Orleans after the Wintergarden raid which was on June 19, 1918 (per arrest cards for Joe Oliver, Johnny Dodds).



              ________________________________
              From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:44 AM
              Subject: RE: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Oliver


               
              Hi John

              Always happy to be corrected.

              First Edition 'King Joe Oliver' 1957 puts Oliver in Chicago 'early' 1918.

              Chilton 1972 amends to c March 1919.

              What evidence do we have ?

              Dave

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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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