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Re: Oliver

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  • Charles Zigmund
    Is there any background info on why Oliver sent to New Orleans for Armstrong? Was his technique already failing at that early date? I don t think second
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 14, 2012
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      Is there any background info on why Oliver sent to New Orleans for
      Armstrong? Was his technique already failing at that early date? I don't
      think second cornets were common in New Orleans jazz bands, were they? Was
      he looking for Armstrong to take some of the playing pressure off himself?
      And is it known exactly on which recordings which man actually played the
      lead?

      In later years, when Armstrong discovered Oliver working as a janitor, did
      he give him some money only once, or did he regularly send him money
      thereafter?


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    • David Brown
      Hello Charles All good questions. I think why Oliver sent for Louis will always be open. Oliver left N.O. in Spring 1919 and, as far as I know, would not have
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 16, 2012
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        Hello Charles


        All good questions. I think why Oliver sent for Louis will always be open.

        Oliver left N.O. in Spring 1919 and, as far as I know, would not have heard
        Louis again before he arrived in Chicago in Summer 1922. He must have heard
        reports on Louis but I suspect neither he, nor anybody else, was prepared
        for just how good Louis had become, better than Oliver himself. Oliver was
        Louis' mentor in N.O. and may have had a genuine interest in Louis' career
        but reports of the generosity and altruism of Oliver are ambiguous if not
        contradictory.

        There is, I think, no evidence that Oliver had dental problems as early as
        1922.

        There was also no tradition of two cornet front lines in previous N.O. jazz
        and it has been argued that this tandem is unnatural and unnecessary and
        worked only in this case because of the genius of Louis in instantly
        concocting a second part. Normally on the records Oliver is playing lead and
        Louis second.

        So, no answer. However, Rudy Jackson said Oliver was 'lazy' and left much of
        the work to Louis and there might lie the real prosaic answer.

        On the other hand, the two cornet innovation could be seen as another
        example of Oliver's musical creativity, vision and originality.

        There is no evidence of Louis contacting Oliver after their meeting. For the
        sad end of Oliver, read his letters in 'Hear Me Talkin' To Ya'.


        Dave



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      • John McCusker
        Agree with this post however despite Stella Oliver s statement that Joe left in early 1919 evidence puts Oliver in chicago in the summer of 1918. Sent from
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 16, 2012
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          Agree with this post however despite Stella Oliver's statement that Joe left in early 1919 evidence puts Oliver in chicago in the summer of 1918.


          Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android



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        • ALAN BOND
          Hi Folks,                 I would suggest that Sam Morgan possibly took the idea of the two cornet front line on from Oliver but their first
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 16, 2012
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            Hi Folks,

                            I would suggest that Sam Morgan possibly took the idea of the two cornet front line on from Oliver but their first recordings were not until 1927. Whether they were fronting with two cornets before Oliver I could not be certain but Sam Morgan is reputed to have had a band as early as 1921 and suffered a stroke around 1925 but carried on playing using Brother Ike on lead trumpet so it could be that the two cornet line up was of necessity rather than the influence of Oliver or perhaps a combination of the two.
            TTFN - 007


            ________________________________
            From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
            To: RedHotJazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, 16 February 2012, 16:18
            Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Oliver

            Hello Charles


            All good questions. I think why Oliver sent for Louis will always be open.

            Oliver left N.O. in Spring 1919 and, as far as I know, would not have heard
            Louis again before he arrived in Chicago in Summer 1922. He must have heard
            reports on Louis but I suspect neither he, nor anybody else, was prepared
            for just how good Louis had become, better than Oliver himself. Oliver
            was
            Louis' mentor in N.O. and may have had a genuine interest in Louis' career
            but reports of the generosity and altruism of Oliver are ambiguous if not
            contradictory.

            There is, I think, no evidence that Oliver had dental problems as early as
            1922.

            There was also no tradition of two cornet front lines in previous N.O. jazz
            and it has been argued that this tandem is unnatural and unnecessary and
            worked only in this case because of the genius of Louis in instantly
            concocting a second part. Normally on the records Oliver is playing lead and
            Louis second.

            So, no answer. However, Rudy Jackson said Oliver was 'lazy' and left much of
            the work to Louis and there might lie the real prosaic answer.

            On the other hand, the two cornet innovation could be seen as another
            example of Oliver's musical creativity, vision and originality.

            There is no evidence of Louis contacting Oliver after their meeting.
            For the
            sad end of Oliver, read his letters in 'Hear Me Talkin' To Ya'.


            Dave



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          • David Brown
            Hi John Always happy to be corrected. First Edition King Joe Oliver 1957 puts Oliver in Chicago early 1918. Chilton 1972 amends to c March 1919. What
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 16, 2012
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              Hi John

              Always happy to be corrected.

              First Edition 'King Joe Oliver' 1957 puts Oliver in Chicago 'early' 1918.

              Chilton 1972 amends to c March 1919.

              What evidence do we have ?

              Dave


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            • John McCusker
              Joe Oliver registered for the draft in September 1918 in Chicago. The document is available online. Ory said Oliver and Noone left New Orleans after the
              Message 6 of 6 , Feb 16, 2012
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                Joe Oliver registered for the draft in September 1918 in Chicago. The document is available online. Ory said Oliver and Noone left New Orleans after the Wintergarden raid which was on June 19, 1918 (per arrest cards for Joe Oliver, Johnny Dodds).



                ________________________________
                From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:44 AM
                Subject: RE: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Oliver


                 
                Hi John

                Always happy to be corrected.

                First Edition 'King Joe Oliver' 1957 puts Oliver in Chicago 'early' 1918.

                Chilton 1972 amends to c March 1919.

                What evidence do we have ?

                Dave

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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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