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Re: [RedHotJazz] Carmelo Jari with Jelly Roll Morton?

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  • Michael Rader
    He was probably a resident of New York at the time, but possibly died while travelling with the Blackbirds of 1928 revue - his last known job. Michael Rader
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 8, 2011
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      He was probably a resident of New York at the time, but possibly died while travelling with the Blackbirds of 1928 revue - his last known job.

      Michael Rader


      ------------------------------------------------------------
      Von: "Bob Eagle" <prof_hi_jinx@...>
      Gesendet: 08.11.2011 13:22:56
      An: "RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
      Betreff: Re: [RedHotJazz] Carmelo Jari with Jelly Roll Morton?

       

      "Firm evidence of his death" is the issue.  Where was his death said to have taken place?
       
      He was counted as a "musico" in Puerto Rico in 1920 and travelled aboard ship until the late 1920s, but seems not be counted in 1930. 
       
      There is no sign of him in an Italian-oriented website dealing with NYC deaths up to 1948.
       
      Bob.
       

      ________________________________
      From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...[mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk]>
      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com[mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Tuesday, 8 November 2011 4:44 PM
      Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Carmelo Jari with Jelly Roll Morton?

       
      Hello Michael

      I hear five different clarinets on these problematic 1930 Morton sides. I
      exclude obviously the session with Albert Nicholas.

      5 March. From Morton himself 'a white Victor house man' -- 'Eddie' -- who
      'tried hard but didn't have it in him to play good jazz'. The playing here
      certainly fits that description although I wonder if it is technically
      proficient enough to be a studio musician, even if the doubling on
      bass-clarinet adds weight to this theory. Interestingly, the player has a
      sound and phrasing at times reminiscent of Albert. Wilbur de Paris
      remembered the name as 'Ernie' and Rust came up with either or both Ernie
      Bullock and Eddie Scarpa. By the last sessions on which we hear him, Jari
      was a much better player than this.

      19 & 20 March. From 'Mr Jelly Roll' -- 'so eager was he to prove that his
      'little black dots' contained the essence of jazz that he brought in Nat
      Shilkret's sweet clarinet player for one recording date and, working from
      Jelly's arrangements, he played so much hot clarinet that ever since the
      fans have been arguing about who this mystery man was'.

      That would mean Andy Sannella, who appears on scores of rather anonymous
      sessions but an exposed example of whom I have been unable to find. Anybody
      ? The playing here, obviously from Morton's dots, which echo substantially
      the work of Simeon on earlier RHPs, would fit this description. This player
      does trill but without bounce. This is the session on which Addison
      identified 'Jajo' -- 'A Cuban Boy'. The photo linked below raises the
      possibility that Sannella could pass for Cuban and maybe Addison, not
      expecting a white this context, assumed him so to be.

      http://bixography.com/Sannella/1931AndySannellaHomePiano.jpg%5bhttp://bixography.com/Sannella/1931AndySannellaHomePiano.jpg%5d

      However, Sannella did also double bass clarinet and could therefore be a
      possible for the 3 March session although we would then have to try and
      rationalise Morton's apparently contradictory views of his ability.

      2 June. Despite Rust placing Scarpa here, I hear only two reeds. There are
      few clarinet parts and those are very poor and suggest saxophonists
      doubling. Northing here either good enough for Jari. Rust reinstates the
      Bros Thomas, who were definitely present, from photographic evidence, on the
      sessions with Baquet of nearly a year earlier.This must be open to some
      doubt.

      9 October. Clarinet here only chalumeau, possibly to disguise his
      ineptitude, and so very difficult to identify. But certainly a technically
      less than fluent player. The nearest parallel in sound is Bigard.

      Conclusion, no Jari and I see no reason to doubt the firm evidence of his
      death.

      Dave

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
       


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    • David Brown
      First, many thanks to everybody who has offered me input. I have now further researched this, in conjunction with Laurie Wright s seminal Mr Jelly Lord . 05
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 15, 2011
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        First, many thanks to everybody who has offered me input.

        I have now further researched this, in conjunction with Laurie Wright's seminal 'Mr Jelly Lord'.

        05 March. The player is most likely Ernie Bullock, a second or third rank black player. No white session man would be so technically fallible.

        19/20 March. Definitely the same player on both sessions. On aural evidence of the Pirons, very far from Tio, whose daughter remembered a proposed session with Morton. Also aurally not Baquet. Also not Andy Sannella, Nat Shilkret's clarinet soloist, who was actually a fine musician on several instruments but whose sound and style and technical competence exclude him from any of these sessions. Also, on evidence of clarinet work with Wooding, not Jerry Blake, whose name appears, probably because he was of Latin American or Spanish or Caribbean extraction, in some discographies. Also NOT Jari on evidence of his work Clarence or Savoy Bearcats. The player here is following Morton's dots, especially 'Ponchatrain', and we are left with Addison's remembrance of 'a Cuban boy' he mistook for deceased Jari. There were many Latino, and especially Puerto Rican, musicians active NYC at this time.

        02 June. unk saxophonists doubling clarinet. Cozy Cole suggested at different times both Bullock and Ernest Elliot. The playing on the session 05 March, accepted Bullock, is better than this and Elliot was a clarinet specialist who played in a style instantly recognisable.

        09 Oct. The only possible candidate for Morton's 'Victor house man' -- 'Eddie' but the playing here is technically the weakest of all on these sessions. Laurie Wright suggests this possible for the Tio session. If so, it would show him much amended and sadly declined .

        I confirm again absence of Jari on these sides.

        The question which remains, apart from the identities of the clarinettists, is why Morton apparently concocted two stories of white musicians with diametrically opposed abilities. The specific mention of Shilkret is, if a lie, maybe an elaboration too far which could have led to contradiction.

        Morton specialists ?

        Dave

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • anthony coleman
        Stop the presses! I just heard Big Ben by Bennett s Swamplanders (thank you Rich Connaty - WFUV), and there is no question in my mind that the clarinetist on
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 9, 2012
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          Stop the presses!

          I just heard Big Ben by Bennett's Swamplanders (thank you Rich Connaty - WFUV), and there is no question in my mind that the clarinetist on this session (Sept. 9, 1930) is the same as one of those unknown Morton guys. The problem is...He is listed as Alberto Socarras, and as far as I know, Socarras was exclusively a flutist - but maybe not? Which Morton guy? I'll go further and listen again - I have the sound in my head, but I can't match it up right now. But it's the right time, the right place, fits in w/people's memories of his being somehow Hispanic...Thoughts? One of my reed player friends says he sounds like he's playing clarinet w/ a flutist's embouchure.

          More Later,

          Anthony Coleman

          Hello to the group - I found the group because Morton minutiae keeps me up at night...



          The solo starts at 1:35

          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Michael
          >
          > I hear five different clarinets on these problematic 1930 Morton sides. I
          > exclude obviously the session with Albert Nicholas.
          >
          > 5 March. From Morton himself 'a white Victor house man' -- 'Eddie' -- who
          > 'tried hard but didn't have it in him to play good jazz'. The playing here
          > certainly fits that description although I wonder if it is technically
          > proficient enough to be a studio musician, even if the doubling on
          > bass-clarinet adds weight to this theory. Interestingly, the player has a
          > sound and phrasing at times reminiscent of Albert. Wilbur de Paris
          > remembered the name as 'Ernie' and Rust came up with either or both Ernie
          > Bullock and Eddie Scarpa. By the last sessions on which we hear him, Jari
          > was a much better player than this.
          >
          > 19 & 20 March. From 'Mr Jelly Roll' -- 'so eager was he to prove that his
          > 'little black dots' contained the essence of jazz that he brought in Nat
          > Shilkret's sweet clarinet player for one recording date and, working from
          > Jelly's arrangements, he played so much hot clarinet that ever since the
          > fans have been arguing about who this mystery man was'.
          >
          > That would mean Andy Sannella, who appears on scores of rather anonymous
          > sessions but an exposed example of whom I have been unable to find. Anybody
          > ? The playing here, obviously from Morton's dots, which echo substantially
          > the work of Simeon on earlier RHPs, would fit this description. This player
          > does trill but without bounce. This is the session on which Addison
          > identified 'Jajo' -- 'A Cuban Boy'. The photo linked below raises the
          > possibility that Sannella could pass for Cuban and maybe Addison, not
          > expecting a white this context, assumed him so to be.
          >
          > http://bixography.com/Sannella/1931AndySannellaHomePiano.jpg
          >
          > However, Sannella did also double bass clarinet and could therefore be a
          > possible for the 3 March session although we would then have to try and
          > rationalise Morton's apparently contradictory views of his ability.
          >
          > 2 June. Despite Rust placing Scarpa here, I hear only two reeds. There are
          > few clarinet parts and those are very poor and suggest saxophonists
          > doubling. Northing here either good enough for Jari. Rust reinstates the
          > Bros Thomas, who were definitely present, from photographic evidence, on the
          > sessions with Baquet of nearly a year earlier.This must be open to some
          > doubt.
          >
          > 9 October. Clarinet here only chalumeau, possibly to disguise his
          > ineptitude, and so very difficult to identify. But certainly a technically
          > less than fluent player. The nearest parallel in sound is Bigard.
          >
          > Conclusion, no Jari and I see no reason to doubt the firm evidence of his
          > death.
          >
          >
          > Dave



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • anthony coleman
          Sorry to clog up your mailboxes...but I m nearly sure that 19th and 20th of March are different guys, and Socarras (if it s him) is on 19th. He s a bit more in
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 9, 2012
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            Sorry to clog up your mailboxes...but I'm nearly sure that 19th and 20th of March are different guys, and Socarras (if it's him) is on 19th. He's a bit more in tune w/ Morton, but rhythmically the solo on Little Lawrence is virtually the same - or cut from the same cloth - as the one on Big Ben. Shilkret guy on 20th? Why not?

            Anthony
            On Sep 10, 2012, at 2:04 AM, anthony coleman wrote:

            >
            > Stop the presses!
            >
            > I just heard Big Ben by Bennett's Swamplanders (thank you Rich Connaty - WFUV), and there is no question in my mind that the clarinetist on this session (Sept. 9, 1930) is the same as one of those unknown Morton guys. The problem is...He is listed as Alberto Socarras, and as far as I know, Socarras was exclusively a flutist - but maybe not? Which Morton guy? I'll go further and listen again - I have the sound in my head, but I can't match it up right now. But it's the right time, the right place, fits in w/people's memories of his being somehow Hispanic...Thoughts? One of my reed player friends says he sounds like he's playing clarinet w/ a flutist's embouchure.
            >
            > More Later,
            >
            > Anthony Coleman
            >
            > Hello to the group - I found the group because Morton minutiae keeps me up at night...
            >
            >
            >
            > The solo starts at 1:35
            >
            > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> Hello Michael
            >>
            >> I hear five different clarinets on these problematic 1930 Morton sides. I
            >> exclude obviously the session with Albert Nicholas.
            >>
            >> 5 March. From Morton himself 'a white Victor house man' -- 'Eddie' -- who
            >> 'tried hard but didn't have it in him to play good jazz'. The playing here
            >> certainly fits that description although I wonder if it is technically
            >> proficient enough to be a studio musician, even if the doubling on
            >> bass-clarinet adds weight to this theory. Interestingly, the player has a
            >> sound and phrasing at times reminiscent of Albert. Wilbur de Paris
            >> remembered the name as 'Ernie' and Rust came up with either or both Ernie
            >> Bullock and Eddie Scarpa. By the last sessions on which we hear him, Jari
            >> was a much better player than this.
            >>
            >> 19 & 20 March. From 'Mr Jelly Roll' -- 'so eager was he to prove that his
            >> 'little black dots' contained the essence of jazz that he brought in Nat
            >> Shilkret's sweet clarinet player for one recording date and, working from
            >> Jelly's arrangements, he played so much hot clarinet that ever since the
            >> fans have been arguing about who this mystery man was'.
            >>
            >> That would mean Andy Sannella, who appears on scores of rather anonymous
            >> sessions but an exposed example of whom I have been unable to find. Anybody
            >> ? The playing here, obviously from Morton's dots, which echo substantially
            >> the work of Simeon on earlier RHPs, would fit this description. This player
            >> does trill but without bounce. This is the session on which Addison
            >> identified 'Jajo' -- 'A Cuban Boy'. The photo linked below raises the
            >> possibility that Sannella could pass for Cuban and maybe Addison, not
            >> expecting a white this context, assumed him so to be.
            >>
            >> http://bixography.com/Sannella/1931AndySannellaHomePiano.jpg
            >>
            >> However, Sannella did also double bass clarinet and could therefore be a
            >> possible for the 3 March session although we would then have to try and



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ROBERT R. CALDER
            Greetings, Group!                            Alberto Socarras was an all round reeds player, presumably several other group members
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 10, 2012
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              Greetings, Group!
                                         Alberto Socarras was an all round reeds player, presumably several other group members have the issue of Storyville with the article on him.  Is it a tin whistle whose appearance on a Clarence Williams number (possibly "What if I Do?"_) gets referred to Socarras' unusual resort to flute, on which he did perform and record with Chick Webb? 

              He couldn't have got along sticking with simply flute in the 1920s as a Latin and Jazz player. I seem to remember some obscure 1920s dance band recordings which also featured flute, but I don't have access to my files at the moment. They rather undermine claims that he was the first flautist on a jazz recording  -- which is presumably why he was misunderstood to have played only flute. 

              But somebody better placed can look up the Storyville article  -- and unlike me this week even listen to the recordings cited,

              ciao

              Robert R. Calder

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • stevenabrams78jazz
              Andy Sannella made some victor records around 1930 One example I have is Bubbling Over With Love. Many others on the Grey Gull house band sides. You could use
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 13, 2012
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                Andy Sannella made some victor records around 1930
                One example I have is Bubbling Over With Love.
                Many others on the Grey Gull house band sides.
                You could use these to compare to the unkown white
                player on the Moron sides.
              • David Brown
                Nice to have interest in this thread again. No doubt Socarras on the Bennett s for he is heard on flute on one side from the session. He was a fast and
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 14, 2012
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                  Nice to have interest in this thread again.

                  No doubt Socarras on the Bennett's for he is heard on flute on one side from
                  the session.

                  He was a fast and technically pretty proficient clarinettist. The thing
                  about the 1930 RHPs -- apart from the session with Albert -- is the poor
                  quality, technically and musically, of the clarinettists.

                  My conclusions are in my post of 15 November 2011 . With subsequent
                  information, I now place Tio almost certainly on the session of 9 October.


                  Dave



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • anthony coleman
                  Did you listen to the solo (Big Ben) again? Please do, and compare! Anthony ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 14, 2012
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                    Did you listen to the solo (Big Ben) again? Please do, and compare!

                    Anthony
                    On Sep 14, 2012, at 5:39 AM, David Brown wrote:

                    > Nice to have interest in this thread again.
                    >
                    > No doubt Socarras on the Bennett's for he is heard on flute on one side from
                    > the session.
                    >
                    > He was a fast and technically pretty proficient clarinettist. The thing
                    > about the 1930 RHPs -- apart from the session with Albert -- is the poor
                    > quality, technically and musically, of the clarinettists.
                    >
                    > My conclusions are in my post of 15 November 2011 . With subsequent
                    > information, I now place Tio almost certainly on the session of 9 October.
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David Brown
                    Hello Anthony I m switching now between Big Ben and Little Lawrence . I can hear some similarities of tone in places but otherwise I hear two different
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 17, 2012
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                      Hello Anthony

                      I'm switching now between 'Big Ben' and 'Little Lawrence'.

                      I can hear some similarities of tone in places but otherwise I hear two
                      different players. The former is a much better and faster technician
                      although also not without intonation problems. If anybody, he reminds me of
                      Albert Nicholas.

                      I am indebted to Michael Rader for:-

                      Storyville 116, p. 58, an article by Johnny Simmen. "In 1961, Sandy
                      (Williams) called Bernard Addison, the guitarist on the date (Gambling
                      Jack/Fickle Fay Creep), and he confirmed the presence of Ward Pinkett, Sandy
                      Williams, Billy Taylor, and Bill Beason. Sandy thought the clarinettist's
                      name was Jo-Jo but Addison said the name was Tao, "a light-skinned coloured
                      man from New Orleans, who, a few years later, died in New York."

                      Which suggests that the mythical JeJo/JoJo was somehow transposed to the
                      sessions of 19/20 March.


                      Dave


















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