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Re: [RedHotJazz] Accessibility on the Red Hot Jazz Archive

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  • J. E. Knox
    Greetings from FixitLand! ... For some time now, I have been unable to access any track on RHJ. The files are RealPlayer .ra files, which properly launch
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 29, 2011
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      Greetings from FixitLand!

      Bob Smith wrote:

      > Some folks on another forum who are running Macs are having trouble
      > accessing individual recordings on the RHJ Archive site.
      >
      > I should be interested in hearing from anybody with a Mac on this
      > forum who can access individual recordings,
      >
      > All the Jelly Roll Morton recordings under his Solo Discography
      > that are printed in yellow are available on a PC, so I should be
      > very interested to hear from any Mac owner who can access these
      > recordings.

      For some time now, I have been unable to access any track on RHJ. The
      files are RealPlayer ".ra" files, which properly launch Real Player
      when double-clicked, but RP then reports "A general error has
      occurred." and it's game-over. I don't know whether this is a fault
      of Real Player or the site. Trying to download, for example, the
      following link --

      <http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/Oliver/Creole/canal.ra>

      -- returns a file "canal.ra.ram" (Real Audio Metafile). Does not open
      in Real Player (same error).

      I tried updating Real Player -- apparently "Version 14" is most
      current. But I cannot! The version that runs on my Mac (OS X 10.4.11
      "Tiger," on a PowerBook G4) is version 12, and the update attempt
      just reinstalled the same version. The upgrade site talks about
      Windows and peecees, so it appears the Mac version of RP has not
      (will not?) be updated!

      Not that I'm enthused at all about the use of the Real Audio
      format...MP3s would be better and much more ubiquitous.

      For that matter, the files (when they *were* accessible) varied
      widely in quality (mostly bad). I supplied some tracks (Jack Crawford
      Orchestra) to Scott Alexander, who promptly re-processed them,
      apparently through some kind of audio meat-grinder software.
      Absolutely horrible.

      Take care,


      Joe
      --
      "Two things are aesthetically perfect in the world -- the clock and
      the cat."--Emile Auguste Chartier
    • Patrice Champarou
      ... From: J. E. Knox Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 6:46 PM To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Accessibility on the Red Hot Jazz
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 29, 2011
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        -----Message d'origine-----
        From: J. E. Knox
        Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 6:46 PM
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Accessibility on the Red Hot Jazz Archive

        [...]
        > For some time now, I have been unable to access any track on RHJ. The
        > files are RealPlayer ".ra" files, which properly launch Real Player
        > when double-clicked, but RP then reports "A general error has
        > occurred." and it's game-over. I don't know whether this is a fault
        > of Real Player or the site. Trying to download, for example, the
        > following link --
        > <http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/Oliver/Creole/canal.ra>
        > -- returns a file "canal.ra.ram" (Real Audio Metafile). Does not open
        > in Real Player (same error).

        This seems to be indeed a problem related to Macs, or Mac software (either
        Realplayer or the browser you are using), or your individual settings, worth
        discussing on a Mac forum.
        The link you have just mentioned works perfectly on my Windows system, from
        both I.E. and Firefox, and even from my mailer.

        If we except the short periods of time when the server happened to be
        completely down, not accessing *any* sound file cannot be related to the
        website's current problem.
        Bob and I have started investigating valid and faulty links two different
        ways, the matching results indicate that the percentage of lost sounds is
        impressive indeed, but the valid ones are valid on a regular basis, they do
        not come and go, and whatever Bob found valid is also, and exacly so far,
        what I managed to save in my local copy of Scott's website.

        I have no idea how a request for .../canal.ra can possibly turn into
        .../canal.ra.ram !
        The reverse - I mean from the .ram metafile to the actual .ra soundfile -
        would be a bit more logical, but definitely not .ram popping up in the
        address after you've directly called the .ra file!
        If the problem is exactly as described, it might mean that Mac versions of
        the player absolutely request a .ram file to work... just a guess. Please
        note that directly requesting the .ra file is no longer "streaming", but
        loading the complete file into memory.

        Patrice

        P.S. The poor sound quality does not depend on the .ra or .mp3 alternative
        (both have dramatically improved in twelve years' time) but on the
        compression rate.
        64bit mp3's would have sounded just as terrible at the time, and the idea
        was to enable nearly instant access when almost everyone was on a slow
        connection.
        With the advantage that realaudio allows one to keep listening after leaving
        the page, and prevents from inadventantly playing several tunes at the same
        time.
      • Mordechai Litzman
        Anytime I try the RHJA I get a screen that says Server Error: 404 file not found. I have given up on getting any files from the RHJA, and have to go to YouTube
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 29, 2011
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          Anytime I try the RHJA I get a screen that says Server Error: 404 file not found. I have given up on getting any files from the RHJA, and have to go to YouTube for whatever I can find....



          ________________________________
          From: Patrice Champarou <patrice.champarou@...>
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 5:27 PM
          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Accessibility on the Red Hot Jazz Archive


           
          -----Message d'origine-----
          From: J. E. Knox
          Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 6:46 PM
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Accessibility on the Red Hot Jazz Archive

          [...]
          > For some time now, I have been unable to access any track on RHJ. The
          > files are RealPlayer ".ra" files, which properly launch Real Player
          > when double-clicked, but RP then reports "A general error has
          > occurred." and it's game-over. I don't know whether this is a fault
          > of Real Player or the site. Trying to download, for example, the
          > following link --
          > <http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/Oliver/Creole/canal.ra>
          > -- returns a file "canal.ra.ram" (Real Audio Metafile). Does not open
          > in Real Player (same error).

          This seems to be indeed a problem related to Macs, or Mac software (either
          Realplayer or the browser you are using), or your individual settings, worth
          discussing on a Mac forum.
          The link you have just mentioned works perfectly on my Windows system, from
          both I.E. and Firefox, and even from my mailer.

          If we except the short periods of time when the server happened to be
          completely down, not accessing *any* sound file cannot be related to the
          website's current problem.
          Bob and I have started investigating valid and faulty links two different
          ways, the matching results indicate that the percentage of lost sounds is
          impressive indeed, but the valid ones are valid on a regular basis, they do
          not come and go, and whatever Bob found valid is also, and exacly so far,
          what I managed to save in my local copy of Scott's website.

          I have no idea how a request for .../canal.ra can possibly turn into
          .../canal.ra.ram !
          The reverse - I mean from the .ram metafile to the actual .ra soundfile -
          would be a bit more logical, but definitely not .ram popping up in the
          address after you've directly called the .ra file!
          If the problem is exactly as described, it might mean that Mac versions of
          the player absolutely request a .ram file to work... just a guess. Please
          note that directly requesting the .ra file is no longer "streaming", but
          loading the complete file into memory.

          Patrice

          P.S. The poor sound quality does not depend on the .ra or .mp3 alternative
          (both have dramatically improved in twelve years' time) but on the
          compression rate.
          64bit mp3's would have sounded just as terrible at the time, and the idea
          was to enable nearly instant access when almost everyone was on a slow
          connection.
          With the advantage that realaudio allows one to keep listening after leaving
          the page, and prevents from inadventantly playing several tunes at the same
          time.




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • lastofthebarons
          I get the notice:- 404 - File or directory not found. The resource you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 29, 2011
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            I get the notice:-

            404 - File or directory not found.
            The resource you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.

            for anything which might be of interest.

            I gave up on the site a long time ago and find most of what I want on Spotify.

            Cheers,

            Marc

            On 29 Oct 2011, at 17:46, J. E. Knox wrote:

            > Greetings from FixitLand!
            >
            > Bob Smith wrote:
            >
            > > Some folks on another forum who are running Macs are having trouble
            > > accessing individual recordings on the RHJ Archive site.
            > >
            > > I should be interested in hearing from anybody with a Mac on this
            > > forum who can access individual recordings,
            > >
            > > All the Jelly Roll Morton recordings under his Solo Discography
            > > that are printed in yellow are available on a PC, so I should be
            > > very interested to hear from any Mac owner who can access these
            > > recordings.
            >
            > For some time now, I have been unable to access any track on RHJ. The
            > files are RealPlayer ".ra" files, which properly launch Real Player
            > when double-clicked, but RP then reports "A general error has
            > occurred." and it's game-over. I don't know whether this is a fault
            > of Real Player or the site. Trying to download, for example, the
            > following link --
            >
            > <http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/Oliver/Creole/canal.ra>
            >
            > -- returns a file "canal.ra.ram" (Real Audio Metafile). Does not open
            > in Real Player (same error).
            >
            > I tried updating Real Player -- apparently "Version 14" is most
            > current. But I cannot! The version that runs on my Mac (OS X 10.4.11
            > "Tiger," on a PowerBook G4) is version 12, and the update attempt
            > just reinstalled the same version. The upgrade site talks about
            > Windows and peecees, so it appears the Mac version of RP has not
            > (will not?) be updated!
            >
            > Not that I'm enthused at all about the use of the Real Audio
            > format...MP3s would be better and much more ubiquitous.
            >
            > For that matter, the files (when they *were* accessible) varied
            > widely in quality (mostly bad). I supplied some tracks (Jack Crawford
            > Orchestra) to Scott Alexander, who promptly re-processed them,
            > apparently through some kind of audio meat-grinder software.
            > Absolutely horrible.
            >
            > Take care,
            >
            > Joe
            > --
            > "Two things are aesthetically perfect in the world -- the clock and
            > the cat."--Emile Auguste Chartier
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • J. E. Knox
            Greetings from FixitLand! ... Curious, and even more indication that Real is no longer supporting Macs. The Real Player software I have installed here *used*
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 29, 2011
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              Greetings from FixitLand!

              Patrice Champarou wrote:

              > This seems to be indeed a problem related to Macs, or Mac software
              > (either
              > Realplayer or the browser you are using), or your individual
              > settings, worth
              > discussing on a Mac forum.
              > The link you have just mentioned works perfectly on my Windows
              > system, from
              > both I.E. and Firefox, and even from my mailer.

              Curious, and even more indication that Real is no longer supporting
              Macs. The Real Player software I have installed here *used* to work
              just fine, until a year or so ago. Nothing else has changed here. The
              browser is irrelevant -- I use Safari primarily, Firefox secondarily;
              in either case, the Real Player application is opened by the browser
              for playing .ra/.ram files.

              > ...I have no idea how a request for .../canal.ra can possibly turn
              > into
              > .../canal.ra.ram !

              Neither do I...quite a mystery.

              > The reverse - I mean from the .ram metafile to the actual .ra
              > soundfile -
              > would be a bit more logical, but definitely not .ram popping up in the
              > address after you've directly called the .ra file!
              > If the problem is exactly as described, it might mean that Mac
              > versions of
              > the player absolutely request a .ram file to work... just a guess.

              Not the case. I have older .ra files I've saved, which open and play
              in RP just fine.

              > Please
              > note that directly requesting the .ra file is no longer
              > "streaming", but
              > loading the complete file into memory.

              Correct. I tend to avoid streaming audio and try to download the
              actual media file itself. I can listen to streams here at work (sort-
              of) but at home I have only dial-up Internet access, and any kind of
              streaming or large downloads is out of the question.

              > P.S. The poor sound quality does not depend on the .ra or .mp3
              > alternative
              > (both have dramatically improved in twelve years' time) but on the
              > compression rate.
              > 64bit mp3's would have sounded just as terrible at the time, and
              > the idea
              > was to enable nearly instant access when almost everyone was on a slow
              > connection.

              Correct, and both the encoding and decoding software have bearing on
              the sound quality as well. For instance, the MP3 encoder used in
              Apple's iTunes application is total garbage compared to the open-
              source LAME encoder, at identical bit rates. I *have* heard
              reasonable quality RA files. My point was that the quality as posted
              by the RHJ owner (Scott) from the CD I sent him (uncompressed audio)
              was markedly deteriorated. If you're saying those *particular* files
              sounded good to you on your peecee, it's possible your decoder
              software is doing a better job than the Real Player version I have
              (and, apparently, *cannot* upgrade).

              Take care,



              Joe
              --
              "Work--other people's work--is an intolerable idea to a cat. Can you
              picture cats herding sheep or agreeing to pull a cart? They will not
              inconvenience themselves to the slightest degree."--Louis J. Camuti,
              DVM (1894-1981), "The Cat Doctor," author of All My Patients Are
              Under The Bed
            • ALAN BOND
              Hi Folks,                I have had this message come up for a few requests but by and large I have been able to access most of what I want on
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 29, 2011
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                Hi Folks,
                               I have had this message come up for a few requests but by and large I have been able to access most of what I want on RHJ.
                TTFN - 007

                --- On Sun, 30/10/11, lastofthebarons <lastofthebarons@...> wrote:

                From: lastofthebarons <lastofthebarons@...>
                Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Accessibility on the Red Hot Jazz Archive
                To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, 30 October, 2011, 1:13

                I get the notice:-

                404 - File or directory not found.
                The resource you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.

                for anything which might be of interest.

                I gave up on the site a long time ago and find most of what I want on Spotify.

                Cheers,

                Marc

                On 29 Oct 2011, at 17:46, J. E. Knox wrote:

                > Greetings from FixitLand!
                >
                > Bob Smith wrote:
                >
                > > Some folks on another forum who are running Macs are having trouble
                > > accessing individual recordings on the RHJ Archive site.
                > >
                > > I should be interested in hearing from anybody with a Mac on this
                > > forum who can access individual recordings,
                > >
                > > All the Jelly Roll Morton recordings under his Solo Discography
                > > that are printed in yellow are available on a PC, so I should be
                > > very interested to hear from any Mac owner who can access these
                > > recordings.
                >
                > For some time now, I have been unable to access any track on RHJ. The
                > files are RealPlayer ".ra" files, which properly launch Real Player
                > when double-clicked, but RP then reports "A general error has
                > occurred." and it's game-over. I don't know whether this is a fault
                > of Real Player or the site. Trying to download, for example, the
                > following link --
                >
                > <http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/Oliver/Creole/canal.ra>
                >
                > -- returns a file "canal.ra.ram" (Real Audio Metafile). Does not open
                > in Real Player (same error).
                >
                > I tried updating Real Player -- apparently "Version 14" is most
                > current. But I cannot! The version that runs on my Mac (OS X 10.4.11
                > "Tiger," on a PowerBook G4) is version 12, and the update attempt
                > just reinstalled the same version. The upgrade site talks about
                > Windows and peecees, so it appears the Mac version of RP has not
                > (will not?) be updated!
                >
                > Not that I'm enthused at all about the use of the Real Audio
                > format...MP3s would be better and much more ubiquitous.
                >
                > For that matter, the files (when they *were* accessible) varied
                > widely in quality (mostly bad). I supplied some tracks (Jack Crawford
                > Orchestra) to Scott Alexander, who promptly re-processed them,
                > apparently through some kind of audio meat-grinder software.
                > Absolutely horrible.
                >
                > Take care,
                >
                > Joe
                > --
                > "Two things are aesthetically perfect in the world -- the clock and
                > the cat."--Emile Auguste Chartier
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Patrice Champarou
                ... From: Mordechai Litzman Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 1:32 AM To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Accessibility on the Red Hot Jazz
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 30, 2011
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                  -----Message d'origine-----
                  From: Mordechai Litzman
                  Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 1:32 AM
                  To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Accessibility on the Red Hot Jazz Archive

                  > Anytime I try the RHJA I get a screen that says Server Error: 404 file not
                  > found.
                  > I have given up on getting any files from the RHJA, and have to go to
                  > YouTube for whatever I can find....

                  It is true that the Web has provided an increasing number or resources
                  regarding pre-war music for the past years.
                  Youtube, archive.org, the Library of Congress "jukebox", even Deezer or
                  other "free" listening sites...
                  At this point, the question is whether there is an interest in accessing
                  such material from a single, documented, reasonably comprehensive, "non
                  academic" website like the RHJ Archive (my personal and temporary opinion
                  being "yes"!)

                  I will not prevent "technical" matters from being discussed here, after all,
                  this group is as much yours as it is officially "mine"; but I'd rather move
                  such question to the RHJ-tech list -
                  http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/rhj-tech/ , by now easily found from
                  Google - so that they could be discussed in details, investigated, and
                  possibly solved, without boring all email subscribers who joined for the
                  sole purpose of discussing our main topic.

                  I created this second Yahoo group to attempt answering two questions :
                  - to what extent are the RHJ files available, or not?
                  - what can we do about it?

                  I am convinced that two kinds of difficulties should be clearly separated :
                  404 errors on the one hand, which *always* mean that the file has been
                  removed, corrupted, displaced, renamed or whatever; and some particular
                  problems depending on everyone's software, configuration, or system, which
                  cannot be discussed in details here, but deserve to be analyzed and solved
                  (for instance, it is interesting to learn that Joe can directly access .ra
                  files stored on his computer, but we need to make one step further wondering
                  if this is also true about distant access, in which case the browser's
                  plugin or settings might be responsible for the error, and so on, until the
                  actual reason has been found.)

                  Bob Smith has carried thourough investigation on most of the largest batches
                  of soundfiles from the site's pages, so as to determine what is working and
                  what is not.
                  I did *not* want to make the fist draft of this large project public yet,
                  but maybe it could be by now useful, as a work in progress, to actually
                  check if your results (or failures) match ours, by looking, for instance,
                  at the entries for which we found *all* links perfectly valid :
                  http://hotjazzfiles.bluesnet.fr/ - soon to be updated, but I was really
                  overworked for a couple of weeks.

                  After what you are welcome to come and share your experience and questions
                  on the "tech" group, possibly with other Mac users who might be kind enough
                  to state that everything works fine for them.
                  I would also like everyone interested in the future of RHJ to start
                  considering possible alternatives (including decisions which, of course,
                  would be ten times easier to make if Scott could be reached at all). I got
                  plenty of mail over the years, stating that they did not want this site to
                  vanish, this was really not part of my own, present projects, but I can feel
                  some kind emergency in "doing something" by now.

                  Patrice
                • Patrice Champarou
                  ... From: J. E. Knox Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 2:52 AM To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Accessibility on the Red Hot Jazz Archive
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 30, 2011
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                    -----Message d'origine-----
                    From: J. E. Knox
                    Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 2:52 AM
                    To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Accessibility on the Red Hot Jazz Archive
                    [...]

                    > If you're saying those *particular* files
                    > sounded good to you on your peecee, it's possible your decoder
                    > software is doing a better job than the Real Player version I have

                    No, I was saying that today's encoders work much better, even while
                    applying such a heavy compression. But everything else can be done,
                    uploading heavier files, even playing mp3's from the Realplayer, or
                    streaming from other websites which explicitely allow that, and even provide
                    the code lines!
                    Experimenting, and asking what works best for the largest number of
                    visitors, will be the next step of my "project", assuming anyone is
                    interested.

                    P.
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