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RE: [RedHotJazz] Noone Procope Benny Waters

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  • David Brown
    Hi Robert You certainly heard Waters more and in more contexts than I did and I bow to your assessment of him. From the examples on Youtube, Bostic would be a
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 19, 2011
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      Hi Robert

      You certainly heard Waters more and in more contexts than I did and I bow to
      your assessment of him. From the examples on Youtube, Bostic would be a
      suitable comparison although Waters did also get stuck with the Euro retro
      bands.

      Stitt was the most feared jammer of all and I would love to have heard the
      session with Waters who might have able to compete on volume and drive but
      not on speed nor harmonic dexterity.

      Thanks for the link, I'll check out the Archey.

      My theory is that Ed Hall's clarinet style was much influenced by his years
      of playing baritone, thus the very forceful attack. There are, however,
      sides he made in the 40s where, although still unique, he is obviously under
      Goodman influence. I think the record to which you refer may date from this
      period. An apparently very gentle man, there is a story of him releasing a
      rant in a band bus against about every white player including Russell and
      Goodman. His brother was a very nice, less idiosyncratic, player. I do not
      hear any baritone influence in Simeon and I think he was more often on alto
      with Hines. I shall search through for examples and report.

      Earle Warren, like about every swing player, had to find another bag for a
      few years in the late 40s and 50s. He also, like Doc Cheatham, played in
      Cuban bands, the alternative was to honk in R&B or jump onto the Dixieland
      bandwagon as even greats like Rex Stewart, Buck Clayton, Vic Dickenson, and,
      I would argue, even Red Allen and Louis Armstrong had to do. For reed
      players it was more difficult because they would have had to pick up
      clarinet. But Warren on the Allen/Hawkins album 'Standards' plays superb
      clarinet in the style of Lester Young.

      I feel that Simeon also had, to some extent, to regress his swing developed
      style to fit in with the unique Wilbur De Paris band which is the prime
      example of swing musicians having to stylistically adapt.

      That Evan Christopher can sound like anybody does not surprise me but is
      that not mere impersonation ? Indeed impersonation also in the heady
      revivalist days but you only impersonated one player. Cy Laurie reportedly
      actually thought he was a reincarnation of Dodds. Another unlikely session I
      would like to have heard would have been the clarinet duets between Cy and
      Jack Brymer, who I well imagine being able to do a late Goodman but I doubt
      that the pure tone could bend to a Dodds or even a Noone.

      I also take this opportunity to plug the superb Noone influenced but still
      original playing of Alan Cooper.

      All Best

      Dave


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • stevenabrams78jazz
      I think the Johnny Dodds sides from 1938 and 1940 do not sound like the Dodds from the 1920 s. I don t know who or what influenced him in the later years.
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 19, 2011
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        I think the Johnny Dodds sides from 1938 and 1940 do not sound like
        the Dodds from the 1920's. I don't know who or what influenced
        him in the later years.
        Steven Abrams

        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
        > That Evan Christopher can sound like anybody does not surprise me but is
        > that not mere impersonation ? Indeed impersonation also in the heady
        > revivalist days but you only impersonated one player. Cy Laurie reportedly
        > actually thought he was a reincarnation of Dodds. Another unlikely session I
        > would like to have heard would have been the clarinet duets between Cy and
        > Jack Brymer, who I well imagine being able to do a late Goodman but I doubt
        > that the pure tone could bend to a Dodds or even a Noone.
        >
        > I also take this opportunity to plug the superb Noone influenced but still
        > original playing of Alan Cooper.
        >
        > All Best
        >
        > Dave
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • stevenabrams78jazz
        As far as Omer Simeon is concerned he played in our Dixieland Band in the 1970 s but I was too busy on drums to really remember what he sounded like....almost
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 19, 2011
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          As far as Omer Simeon is concerned he played in our Dixieland Band
          in the 1970's but I was too busy on drums to really remember what
          he sounded like....almost always played clarinet.
          Wish there were some recordings of him during that period.
          If anybody knows please let us know.
          Steven Abrams

          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "ROBERT R. CALDER" <serapion@...> wrote:
          > Ed Hall was also a noted baritone player, but for him on that horn you have to find the Claude Hopkins big band, just as for Omer Simeon it's the Earl Hines band. The broadcast recordings in the Storyville series include various sometime big band reedmen playing clarinet. There is however some very distinctive clarinet work from Earle Warren on a Henry Allen LP from the 1950s.  It seems that a famous New York Klezmer quartet suddenly realised that since they were all brothers and business was booming they could use the name for four quartets -- and indeed when Warren turned up in Britain in the 1960s and was asked what he'd been doing he mentioned Jewish weddings. He was certainly doubling both alto and clarinet when he came to Europe depping for the mortally ill Willie Smith. And when some film now on YouTube was made a year or so before.
          >
          > Simeon had to stay on clarinet when working with Wilbur de Paris, although he was by all accounts the most widely accomplished pro of all on the New Orleans clarinet list.  Somewhere in the files of I think Jazz Monthly there's an account of him staying in New York for family reasons, refusing an offer to join Duke Ellington.
          >
        • Howard Rye
          Something is wrong here. Omer Simeon died on 17 December 1959. Whoever was in your Dixieland Band in the 1970s it cannot have been him. Can¹t find the Jazz
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 20, 2011
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            Something is wrong here. Omer Simeon died on 17 December 1959. Whoever was
            in your Dixieland Band in the 1970s it cannot have been him.

            Can¹t find the Jazz Monthly article but the very first issue of Storyville
            contains an article by John R.T. Davies trashing Simeon¹s later work much
            along the lines of André Hodeir¹s trashing of the later work of Dickie
            Wells. Couldn¹t disagree more in either case!


            on 19/09/2011 22:30, stevenabrams78jazz at stevenso-b@... wrote:

            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > As far as Omer Simeon is concerned he played in our Dixieland Band
            > in the 1970's but I was too busy on drums to really remember what
            > he sounded like....almost always played clarinet.
            > Wish there were some recordings of him during that period.
            > If anybody knows please let us know.
            > Steven Abrams
            >
            > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
            > "ROBERT R. CALDER" <serapion@...> wrote:
            >> > Ed Hall was also a noted baritone player, but for him on that horn you have
            >> to find the Claude Hopkins big band, just as for Omer Simeon it's the Earl
            >> Hines band. The broadcast recordings in the Storyville series include various
            >> sometime big band reedmen playing clarinet. There is however some very
            >> distinctive clarinet work from Earle Warren on a Henry Allen LP from the
            >> 1950s.  It seems that a famous New York Klezmer quartet suddenly realised
            >> that since they were all brothers and business was booming they could use the
            >> name for four quartets -- and indeed when Warren turned up in Britain in the
            >> 1960s and was asked what he'd been doing he mentioned Jewish weddings. He was
            >> certainly doubling both alto and clarinet when he came to Europe depping for
            >> the mortally ill Willie Smith. And when some film now on YouTube was made a
            >> year or so before.
            >> >
            >> > Simeon had to stay on clarinet when working with Wilbur de Paris, although
            >> he was by all accounts the most widely accomplished pro of all on the New
            >> Orleans clarinet list.  Somewhere in the files of I think Jazz Monthly
            >> there's an account of him staying in New York for family reasons, refusing an
            >> offer to join Duke Ellington.
            >> >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            howard@...
            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Howard Rye
            Chicago blues bands? ... I ... Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB howard@coppermill.demon.co.uk Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098 [Non-text
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 20, 2011
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              Chicago blues bands?


              on 19/09/2011 22:20, stevenabrams78jazz at stevenso-b@... wrote:

              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I think the Johnny Dodds sides from 1938 and 1940 do not sound like
              > the Dodds from the 1920's. I don't know who or what influenced
              > him in the later years.
              > Steven Abrams
              >
              > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
              > "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
              >> > That Evan Christopher can sound like anybody does not surprise me but is
              >> > that not mere impersonation ? Indeed impersonation also in the heady
              >> > revivalist days but you only impersonated one player. Cy Laurie reportedly
              >> > actually thought he was a reincarnation of Dodds. Another unlikely session
              I
              >> > would like to have heard would have been the clarinet duets between Cy and
              >> > Jack Brymer, who I well imagine being able to do a late Goodman but I doubt
              >> > that the pure tone could bend to a Dodds or even a Noone.
              >> >
              >> > I also take this opportunity to plug the superb Noone influenced but still
              >> > original playing of Alan Cooper.
              >> >
              >> > All Best
              >> >
              >> > Dave
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >> >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tony Standish
              Can t say I ever heard Omer Simeon play badly; and Dickie Wells still sounded pretty good when he toured with Buddy Tate and company in the early 60s, in one
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 20, 2011
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                Can't say I ever heard Omer Simeon play badly; and Dickie Wells still
                sounded pretty good when he toured with Buddy Tate and company in the early
                '60s, in one of the best jazz bands I've ever heard..
                Tony Standish

                --------------------------------------------------
                From: "Howard Rye" <howard@...>
                Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 6:26 PM
                To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone Procope Benny Waters (Omer Simeon)

                > Something is wrong here. Omer Simeon died on 17 December 1959. Whoever was
                > in your Dixieland Band in the 1970s it cannot have been him.
                >
                > Can¹t find the Jazz Monthly article but the very first issue of Storyville
                > contains an article by John R.T. Davies trashing Simeon¹s later work much
                > along the lines of André Hodeir¹s trashing of the later work of Dickie
                > Wells. Couldn¹t disagree more in either case!
                >
                >
                > on 19/09/2011 22:30, stevenabrams78jazz at stevenso-b@... wrote:
                >
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> As far as Omer Simeon is concerned he played in our Dixieland Band
                >> in the 1970's but I was too busy on drums to really remember what
                >> he sounded like....almost always played clarinet.
                >> Wish there were some recordings of him during that period.
                >> If anybody knows please let us know.
                >> Steven Abrams
                >>
                >> --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                >> "ROBERT R. CALDER" <serapion@...> wrote:
                >>> > Ed Hall was also a noted baritone player, but for him on that horn you
                >>> > have
                >>> to find the Claude Hopkins big band, just as for Omer Simeon it's the
                >>> Earl
                >>> Hines band. The broadcast recordings in the Storyville series include
                >>> various
                >>> sometime big band reedmen playing clarinet. There is however some very
                >>> distinctive clarinet work from Earle Warren on a Henry Allen LP from the
                >>> 1950s. It seems that a famous New York Klezmer quartet suddenly
                >>> realised
                >>> that since they were all brothers and business was booming they could
                >>> use the
                >>> name for four quartets -- and indeed when Warren turned up in Britain in
                >>> the
                >>> 1960s and was asked what he'd been doing he mentioned Jewish weddings.
                >>> He was
                >>> certainly doubling both alto and clarinet when he came to Europe depping
                >>> for
                >>> the mortally ill Willie Smith. And when some film now on YouTube was
                >>> made a
                >>> year or so before.
                >>> >
                >>> > Simeon had to stay on clarinet when working with Wilbur de Paris,
                >>> > although
                >>> he was by all accounts the most widely accomplished pro of all on the
                >>> New
                >>> Orleans clarinet list. Somewhere in the files of I think Jazz Monthly
                >>> there's an account of him staying in New York for family reasons,
                >>> refusing an
                >>> offer to join Duke Ellington.
                >>> >
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                > howard@...
                > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • fearfeasa
                It may have been his son, though --- or even his grandson, as both were named Omer. I ve an idea the g-g son is also Omer, but I m not 100% on that. As for
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 20, 2011
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                  It may have been his son, though --- or even his grandson, as both were
                  named Omer. I've an idea the g-g'son is also Omer, but I'm not 100% on that.

                  As for Johnny Dodd --- I always thought his mellower sound on his last
                  sessions was partially due to his bad heart cutting back his wind.

                  JT Dyamond

                  Ar 20/09/11 09:26 :48, scríobh Howard Rye:

                  > Something is wrong here. Omer Simeon died on 17 December 1959. Whoever was
                  > in your Dixieland Band in the 1970s it cannot have been him.
                  >
                  > Can¹t find the Jazz Monthly article but the very first issue of Storyville
                  > contains an article by John R.T. Davies trashing Simeon¹s later work much
                  > along the lines of André Hodeir¹s trashing of the later work of Dickie
                  > Wells. Couldn¹t disagree more in either case!
                  >
                  > on 19/09/2011 22:30, stevenabrams78jazz at stevenso-b@...
                  > <mailto:stevenso-b%40sbcglobal.net> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > As far as Omer Simeon is concerned he played in our Dixieland Band
                  > > in the 1970's but I was too busy on drums to really remember what
                  > > he sounded like....almost always played clarinet.
                  > > Wish there were some recordings of him during that period.
                  > > If anybody knows please let us know.
                  > > Steven Abrams
                  > >
                  > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                  > > "ROBERT R. CALDER" <serapion@...> wrote:
                  > >> > Ed Hall was also a noted baritone player, but for him on that
                  > horn you have
                  > >> to find the Claude Hopkins big band, just as for Omer Simeon it's
                  > the Earl
                  > >> Hines band. The broadcast recordings in the Storyville series
                  > include various
                  > >> sometime big band reedmen playing clarinet. There is however some very
                  > >> distinctive clarinet work from Earle Warren on a Henry Allen LP
                  > from the
                  > >> 1950s. It seems that a famous New York Klezmer quartet suddenly
                  > realised
                  > >> that since they were all brothers and business was booming they
                  > could use the
                  > >> name for four quartets -- and indeed when Warren turned up in
                  > Britain in the
                  > >> 1960s and was asked what he'd been doing he mentioned Jewish
                  > weddings. He was
                  > >> certainly doubling both alto and clarinet when he came to Europe
                  > depping for
                  > >> the mortally ill Willie Smith. And when some film now on YouTube
                  > was made a
                  > >> year or so before.
                  > >> >
                  > >> > Simeon had to stay on clarinet when working with Wilbur de Paris,
                  > although
                  > >> he was by all accounts the most widely accomplished pro of all on
                  > the New
                  > >> Orleans clarinet list. Somewhere in the files of I think Jazz Monthly
                  > >> there's an account of him staying in New York for family reasons,
                  > refusing an
                  > >> offer to join Duke Ellington.
                  > >> >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                  > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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