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Noone Procope Benny Waters

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  • ROBERT R. CALDER
    Hi Dave, From what I heard of Benny Watersm he certainly wasn t was was something of an anachronism, seemingly playing in a style unaltered from his formative
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 16 9:59 AM
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      Hi Dave,
      From what I heard of Benny Watersm he certainly wasn't "was was something of an anachronism, seemingly playing in a style unaltered from his formative years."

      It depended on the context, and certainly there was no stylistic gap between him and among others HarrySweets Edison or Buddy Tate or George Chisholm, with all of whom I heard him on the bandstand.  He was proud of having put the wind up Sonny Stitt, Benny said he could play bop and new all the harmonic side of it, but it wasn't his style. He was very competitive, and the best I ever heard Buddy Tate playing was with Benny,  who proceeded to outplay him. Earle Warren was impressively more of a match. Benny was a great admirer of Earl Bostic
      As for 1940s R&B, Humphrey Lyttelton once dug out the ultrabarbaric 1940s tenor solo which sounded most as if it was being played by somebody who could eat you. It was Prince Robinson, also of Clarence Williams vintage.
      The time I mentioned c. 1988 when I was with Dave Green, Benny had actually been playing a bit more clarinet on a regular basis and was certainly not a part-timer.  There might only be unissued radio tapes rather than studio recordings from this time shortly before he lost his sight.
      The following link has details of the Storyville CD of him when he joined Jimmy Archey's band during Bob Wilber's military service. He sounds very good indeed, but nothing like he did later on. The early recordings would seem to bear out what he said about the c. 1950 Archey period, that he had never been a clarinetist before.

      http://cdnavigator.com/a-60112.htm

      Ed Hall was also a noted baritone player, but for him on that horn you have to find the Claude Hopkins big band, just as for Omer Simeon it's the Earl Hines band. The broadcast recordings in the Storyville series include various sometime big band reedmen playing clarinet. There is however some very distinctive clarinet work from Earle Warren on a Henry Allen LP from the 1950s.  It seems that a famous New York Klezmer quartet suddenly realised that since they were all brothers and business was booming they could use the name for four quartets -- and indeed when Warren turned up in Britain in the 1960s and was asked what he'd been doing he mentioned Jewish weddings. He was certainly doubling both alto and clarinet when he came to Europe depping for the mortally ill Willie Smith. And when some film now on YouTube was made a year or so before.

      Simeon had to stay on clarinet when working with Wilbur de Paris, although he was by all accounts the most widely accomplished pro of all on the New Orleans clarinet list.  Somewhere in the files of I think Jazz Monthly there's an account of him staying in New York for family reasons, refusing an offer to join Duke Ellington.

      I think Procope was mostly a stylist rather than a creative improviser, though one of these days I shall dig out the video of an Ellington concert in Switzerland, where he stands up and delivers one of the Hodges features, with Hodges sitting beside him wearing dark glasses and deeply hung over. I've never got round to hearing the Chris Barber Ellington recordings with Procope.
      There is one Ed Hall recording from the 1940s on which he does a sort of sub-Buster Bailey virtuoso thing, fleet of finger and sounding like nobody in particular.  Which goes back to ideas of Jimmy Noone not sounding like himself on King Oliver records.

      Dave will perhaps appreciate that when Duke Heitger introduced himself and Evan Christopher at one gig as from New Orleans, Christopher oberved disapprovingly "we (just) LIVE there".  After doing his Bechet lecture-recital at one gig, Christopher playing in his own right fluctuated between sounding more like Bechet right through a spectrum of Albert Nicholas and Ed Hall.

      As for other doubles, Pete Brown didn't so much double as transpose what he did on alto.

      Alas I know nothing of  Jack Brymer on record other than Brahms and Mozart et cetera.
      He did have a show on BBC Radio 3 playing a selection of recordings, when he talked about Buster Bailey and played various jazz items as well as including a classical singer every time, not least Peter Dawson. For those who appreciated the vocal records there was also the perfectly natural and beautiful speaking voice beside the intelligence of what he said.
      I listened regularly, but he never mentioned Jimmy Noone.

      all the best,

      Robert





      Goodman. I never knew he attempted jazz. Records ?

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Brown
      Hi Robert You certainly heard Waters more and in more contexts than I did and I bow to your assessment of him. From the examples on Youtube, Bostic would be a
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 19 1:41 AM
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        Hi Robert

        You certainly heard Waters more and in more contexts than I did and I bow to
        your assessment of him. From the examples on Youtube, Bostic would be a
        suitable comparison although Waters did also get stuck with the Euro retro
        bands.

        Stitt was the most feared jammer of all and I would love to have heard the
        session with Waters who might have able to compete on volume and drive but
        not on speed nor harmonic dexterity.

        Thanks for the link, I'll check out the Archey.

        My theory is that Ed Hall's clarinet style was much influenced by his years
        of playing baritone, thus the very forceful attack. There are, however,
        sides he made in the 40s where, although still unique, he is obviously under
        Goodman influence. I think the record to which you refer may date from this
        period. An apparently very gentle man, there is a story of him releasing a
        rant in a band bus against about every white player including Russell and
        Goodman. His brother was a very nice, less idiosyncratic, player. I do not
        hear any baritone influence in Simeon and I think he was more often on alto
        with Hines. I shall search through for examples and report.

        Earle Warren, like about every swing player, had to find another bag for a
        few years in the late 40s and 50s. He also, like Doc Cheatham, played in
        Cuban bands, the alternative was to honk in R&B or jump onto the Dixieland
        bandwagon as even greats like Rex Stewart, Buck Clayton, Vic Dickenson, and,
        I would argue, even Red Allen and Louis Armstrong had to do. For reed
        players it was more difficult because they would have had to pick up
        clarinet. But Warren on the Allen/Hawkins album 'Standards' plays superb
        clarinet in the style of Lester Young.

        I feel that Simeon also had, to some extent, to regress his swing developed
        style to fit in with the unique Wilbur De Paris band which is the prime
        example of swing musicians having to stylistically adapt.

        That Evan Christopher can sound like anybody does not surprise me but is
        that not mere impersonation ? Indeed impersonation also in the heady
        revivalist days but you only impersonated one player. Cy Laurie reportedly
        actually thought he was a reincarnation of Dodds. Another unlikely session I
        would like to have heard would have been the clarinet duets between Cy and
        Jack Brymer, who I well imagine being able to do a late Goodman but I doubt
        that the pure tone could bend to a Dodds or even a Noone.

        I also take this opportunity to plug the superb Noone influenced but still
        original playing of Alan Cooper.

        All Best

        Dave


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • stevenabrams78jazz
        I think the Johnny Dodds sides from 1938 and 1940 do not sound like the Dodds from the 1920 s. I don t know who or what influenced him in the later years.
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 19 2:20 PM
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          I think the Johnny Dodds sides from 1938 and 1940 do not sound like
          the Dodds from the 1920's. I don't know who or what influenced
          him in the later years.
          Steven Abrams

          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
          > That Evan Christopher can sound like anybody does not surprise me but is
          > that not mere impersonation ? Indeed impersonation also in the heady
          > revivalist days but you only impersonated one player. Cy Laurie reportedly
          > actually thought he was a reincarnation of Dodds. Another unlikely session I
          > would like to have heard would have been the clarinet duets between Cy and
          > Jack Brymer, who I well imagine being able to do a late Goodman but I doubt
          > that the pure tone could bend to a Dodds or even a Noone.
          >
          > I also take this opportunity to plug the superb Noone influenced but still
          > original playing of Alan Cooper.
          >
          > All Best
          >
          > Dave
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • stevenabrams78jazz
          As far as Omer Simeon is concerned he played in our Dixieland Band in the 1970 s but I was too busy on drums to really remember what he sounded like....almost
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 19 2:30 PM
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            As far as Omer Simeon is concerned he played in our Dixieland Band
            in the 1970's but I was too busy on drums to really remember what
            he sounded like....almost always played clarinet.
            Wish there were some recordings of him during that period.
            If anybody knows please let us know.
            Steven Abrams

            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "ROBERT R. CALDER" <serapion@...> wrote:
            > Ed Hall was also a noted baritone player, but for him on that horn you have to find the Claude Hopkins big band, just as for Omer Simeon it's the Earl Hines band. The broadcast recordings in the Storyville series include various sometime big band reedmen playing clarinet. There is however some very distinctive clarinet work from Earle Warren on a Henry Allen LP from the 1950s.  It seems that a famous New York Klezmer quartet suddenly realised that since they were all brothers and business was booming they could use the name for four quartets -- and indeed when Warren turned up in Britain in the 1960s and was asked what he'd been doing he mentioned Jewish weddings. He was certainly doubling both alto and clarinet when he came to Europe depping for the mortally ill Willie Smith. And when some film now on YouTube was made a year or so before.
            >
            > Simeon had to stay on clarinet when working with Wilbur de Paris, although he was by all accounts the most widely accomplished pro of all on the New Orleans clarinet list.  Somewhere in the files of I think Jazz Monthly there's an account of him staying in New York for family reasons, refusing an offer to join Duke Ellington.
            >
          • Howard Rye
            Something is wrong here. Omer Simeon died on 17 December 1959. Whoever was in your Dixieland Band in the 1970s it cannot have been him. Can¹t find the Jazz
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 20 1:26 AM
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              Something is wrong here. Omer Simeon died on 17 December 1959. Whoever was
              in your Dixieland Band in the 1970s it cannot have been him.

              Can¹t find the Jazz Monthly article but the very first issue of Storyville
              contains an article by John R.T. Davies trashing Simeon¹s later work much
              along the lines of André Hodeir¹s trashing of the later work of Dickie
              Wells. Couldn¹t disagree more in either case!


              on 19/09/2011 22:30, stevenabrams78jazz at stevenso-b@... wrote:

              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > As far as Omer Simeon is concerned he played in our Dixieland Band
              > in the 1970's but I was too busy on drums to really remember what
              > he sounded like....almost always played clarinet.
              > Wish there were some recordings of him during that period.
              > If anybody knows please let us know.
              > Steven Abrams
              >
              > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
              > "ROBERT R. CALDER" <serapion@...> wrote:
              >> > Ed Hall was also a noted baritone player, but for him on that horn you have
              >> to find the Claude Hopkins big band, just as for Omer Simeon it's the Earl
              >> Hines band. The broadcast recordings in the Storyville series include various
              >> sometime big band reedmen playing clarinet. There is however some very
              >> distinctive clarinet work from Earle Warren on a Henry Allen LP from the
              >> 1950s.  It seems that a famous New York Klezmer quartet suddenly realised
              >> that since they were all brothers and business was booming they could use the
              >> name for four quartets -- and indeed when Warren turned up in Britain in the
              >> 1960s and was asked what he'd been doing he mentioned Jewish weddings. He was
              >> certainly doubling both alto and clarinet when he came to Europe depping for
              >> the mortally ill Willie Smith. And when some film now on YouTube was made a
              >> year or so before.
              >> >
              >> > Simeon had to stay on clarinet when working with Wilbur de Paris, although
              >> he was by all accounts the most widely accomplished pro of all on the New
              >> Orleans clarinet list.  Somewhere in the files of I think Jazz Monthly
              >> there's an account of him staying in New York for family reasons, refusing an
              >> offer to join Duke Ellington.
              >> >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Howard Rye
              Chicago blues bands? ... I ... Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB howard@coppermill.demon.co.uk Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098 [Non-text
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 20 1:27 AM
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                Chicago blues bands?


                on 19/09/2011 22:20, stevenabrams78jazz at stevenso-b@... wrote:

                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I think the Johnny Dodds sides from 1938 and 1940 do not sound like
                > the Dodds from the 1920's. I don't know who or what influenced
                > him in the later years.
                > Steven Abrams
                >
                > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                > "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                >> > That Evan Christopher can sound like anybody does not surprise me but is
                >> > that not mere impersonation ? Indeed impersonation also in the heady
                >> > revivalist days but you only impersonated one player. Cy Laurie reportedly
                >> > actually thought he was a reincarnation of Dodds. Another unlikely session
                I
                >> > would like to have heard would have been the clarinet duets between Cy and
                >> > Jack Brymer, who I well imagine being able to do a late Goodman but I doubt
                >> > that the pure tone could bend to a Dodds or even a Noone.
                >> >
                >> > I also take this opportunity to plug the superb Noone influenced but still
                >> > original playing of Alan Cooper.
                >> >
                >> > All Best
                >> >
                >> > Dave
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >> >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                howard@...
                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tony Standish
                Can t say I ever heard Omer Simeon play badly; and Dickie Wells still sounded pretty good when he toured with Buddy Tate and company in the early 60s, in one
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 20 6:46 AM
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                  Can't say I ever heard Omer Simeon play badly; and Dickie Wells still
                  sounded pretty good when he toured with Buddy Tate and company in the early
                  '60s, in one of the best jazz bands I've ever heard..
                  Tony Standish

                  --------------------------------------------------
                  From: "Howard Rye" <howard@...>
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 6:26 PM
                  To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone Procope Benny Waters (Omer Simeon)

                  > Something is wrong here. Omer Simeon died on 17 December 1959. Whoever was
                  > in your Dixieland Band in the 1970s it cannot have been him.
                  >
                  > Can¹t find the Jazz Monthly article but the very first issue of Storyville
                  > contains an article by John R.T. Davies trashing Simeon¹s later work much
                  > along the lines of André Hodeir¹s trashing of the later work of Dickie
                  > Wells. Couldn¹t disagree more in either case!
                  >
                  >
                  > on 19/09/2011 22:30, stevenabrams78jazz at stevenso-b@... wrote:
                  >
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> As far as Omer Simeon is concerned he played in our Dixieland Band
                  >> in the 1970's but I was too busy on drums to really remember what
                  >> he sounded like....almost always played clarinet.
                  >> Wish there were some recordings of him during that period.
                  >> If anybody knows please let us know.
                  >> Steven Abrams
                  >>
                  >> --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                  >> "ROBERT R. CALDER" <serapion@...> wrote:
                  >>> > Ed Hall was also a noted baritone player, but for him on that horn you
                  >>> > have
                  >>> to find the Claude Hopkins big band, just as for Omer Simeon it's the
                  >>> Earl
                  >>> Hines band. The broadcast recordings in the Storyville series include
                  >>> various
                  >>> sometime big band reedmen playing clarinet. There is however some very
                  >>> distinctive clarinet work from Earle Warren on a Henry Allen LP from the
                  >>> 1950s. It seems that a famous New York Klezmer quartet suddenly
                  >>> realised
                  >>> that since they were all brothers and business was booming they could
                  >>> use the
                  >>> name for four quartets -- and indeed when Warren turned up in Britain in
                  >>> the
                  >>> 1960s and was asked what he'd been doing he mentioned Jewish weddings.
                  >>> He was
                  >>> certainly doubling both alto and clarinet when he came to Europe depping
                  >>> for
                  >>> the mortally ill Willie Smith. And when some film now on YouTube was
                  >>> made a
                  >>> year or so before.
                  >>> >
                  >>> > Simeon had to stay on clarinet when working with Wilbur de Paris,
                  >>> > although
                  >>> he was by all accounts the most widely accomplished pro of all on the
                  >>> New
                  >>> Orleans clarinet list. Somewhere in the files of I think Jazz Monthly
                  >>> there's an account of him staying in New York for family reasons,
                  >>> refusing an
                  >>> offer to join Duke Ellington.
                  >>> >
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  > howard@...
                  > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • fearfeasa
                  It may have been his son, though --- or even his grandson, as both were named Omer. I ve an idea the g-g son is also Omer, but I m not 100% on that. As for
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 20 2:50 PM
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                    It may have been his son, though --- or even his grandson, as both were
                    named Omer. I've an idea the g-g'son is also Omer, but I'm not 100% on that.

                    As for Johnny Dodd --- I always thought his mellower sound on his last
                    sessions was partially due to his bad heart cutting back his wind.

                    JT Dyamond

                    Ar 20/09/11 09:26 :48, scríobh Howard Rye:

                    > Something is wrong here. Omer Simeon died on 17 December 1959. Whoever was
                    > in your Dixieland Band in the 1970s it cannot have been him.
                    >
                    > Can¹t find the Jazz Monthly article but the very first issue of Storyville
                    > contains an article by John R.T. Davies trashing Simeon¹s later work much
                    > along the lines of André Hodeir¹s trashing of the later work of Dickie
                    > Wells. Couldn¹t disagree more in either case!
                    >
                    > on 19/09/2011 22:30, stevenabrams78jazz at stevenso-b@...
                    > <mailto:stevenso-b%40sbcglobal.net> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > As far as Omer Simeon is concerned he played in our Dixieland Band
                    > > in the 1970's but I was too busy on drums to really remember what
                    > > he sounded like....almost always played clarinet.
                    > > Wish there were some recordings of him during that period.
                    > > If anybody knows please let us know.
                    > > Steven Abrams
                    > >
                    > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                    > > "ROBERT R. CALDER" <serapion@...> wrote:
                    > >> > Ed Hall was also a noted baritone player, but for him on that
                    > horn you have
                    > >> to find the Claude Hopkins big band, just as for Omer Simeon it's
                    > the Earl
                    > >> Hines band. The broadcast recordings in the Storyville series
                    > include various
                    > >> sometime big band reedmen playing clarinet. There is however some very
                    > >> distinctive clarinet work from Earle Warren on a Henry Allen LP
                    > from the
                    > >> 1950s. It seems that a famous New York Klezmer quartet suddenly
                    > realised
                    > >> that since they were all brothers and business was booming they
                    > could use the
                    > >> name for four quartets -- and indeed when Warren turned up in
                    > Britain in the
                    > >> 1960s and was asked what he'd been doing he mentioned Jewish
                    > weddings. He was
                    > >> certainly doubling both alto and clarinet when he came to Europe
                    > depping for
                    > >> the mortally ill Willie Smith. And when some film now on YouTube
                    > was made a
                    > >> year or so before.
                    > >> >
                    > >> > Simeon had to stay on clarinet when working with Wilbur de Paris,
                    > although
                    > >> he was by all accounts the most widely accomplished pro of all on
                    > the New
                    > >> Orleans clarinet list. Somewhere in the files of I think Jazz Monthly
                    > >> there's an account of him staying in New York for family reasons,
                    > refusing an
                    > >> offer to join Duke Ellington.
                    > >> >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                    > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                    > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >


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