Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues

Expand Messages
  • David Brown
    Right Howard There are indeed a few late examples of Buster playing a good blues but his normal blues mode was rather too glib. However, this style totally
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Right Howard

      There are indeed a few late examples of Buster playing a good blues but his
      normal blues mode was rather too glib. However, this style totally suited
      the 'tight arsed' Kirby band of which he was the best part.

      I can't remember source but Buster was extremely jealous of Goodman,
      considering himself the better player and this was the reason for the rather
      dreadful 'Man With A Horn Goes Berserk' in which he displays his speed at
      the sacrifice of music and any semblance of jazz tone or even decent
      classical tone.

      Goodman reported playing duets with Buster for Schoepp but I doubt if
      either, or Noone, had their jazz playing enhanced. Noone also became rather
      glib although even late could play a sublime blues.

      Goodman's jazz was even more damaged by his studies with Kell and I posit
      that 'proper' classical technique is really inimical to jazz and certainly
      jazz tone, whatever that is.

      I also conjecture that the riches that we have within our 'red hot' period
      are due, in no small part, to the fact that the musicians were self, or
      badly, taught and often had 'faulty' technique.


      Dave


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • ALAN BOND
      Hi Folks,               If you want blues feeling from a clarinet player look no further than Russell Procope or Barney Bigard. The former is on
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Folks,
                      If you want blues feeling from a clarinet player look no further than Russell Procope or Barney Bigard. The former is on Jelly Roll Morton's 'Deep Creek' and his short clarinet passage there has more blues feeling than I would have credited to any man. Bigard, of course, spent all those years with Duke Ellington and his chair was latterly taken by Russell Procope who added another value to the rich tapestry of the Ellington band. Neither of them were 'flashy' technical players either and both paid homage to Buster Bailey at one time or another.
        TTFN - 007

        --- On Thu, 1/9/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:

        From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
        Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 15:46

        Right Howard

        There are indeed a few late examples of Buster playing a good blues but his
        normal blues mode was rather too glib. However, this style totally suited
        the 'tight arsed' Kirby band of which he was the best part.

        I can't remember source but Buster was extremely jealous of Goodman,
        considering himself the better player and this was the reason for the rather
        dreadful 'Man With A Horn Goes Berserk' in which he displays his speed at
        the sacrifice of music and any semblance of jazz tone or even decent
        classical tone.

        Goodman reported playing duets with Buster for Schoepp but I doubt if
        either, or Noone, had their jazz playing enhanced. Noone also became rather
        glib although even late could play a sublime blues.

        Goodman's jazz was even more damaged by his studies with Kell and I posit
        that 'proper' classical technique is really inimical to jazz and certainly
        jazz tone, whatever that is.

        I also conjecture that the riches that we have within our 'red hot' period
        are due, in no small part, to the fact that the musicians were self, or
        badly, taught and often had 'faulty' technique.


        Dave


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Brown
        Alan If it is Procope on Deep Creek I think the clarinet solo was written out by Morton because it is far more convincing blues than anything else he ever
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Alan

          If it is Procope on 'Deep Creek' I think the clarinet solo was written out
          by Morton because it is far more convincing blues than anything else he ever
          played. I feel that with Ellington he offered pastiche of N.O. clarinet.


          Dave


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Brown
          An essay by Richard Rains on this subject appears in the latest VJM magazine. Mr Rains comes down for Noone throughout although fails to offer any new
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 29, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            An essay by Richard Rains on this subject appears in the latest VJM
            magazine.

            Mr Rains comes down for Noone throughout although fails to offer any new
            evidence.

            On the contrary, he specifies the claim by Buster to Arnold Klein that he
            played on one Columbia date and, at one time, had test pressings.

            For us to discount this, as does Mr Rains, we must believe that either Klein
            or Buster were lying -- elaborately.

            However, we are left with the lack of documentary evidence for the Columbias
            being split over two consecutive days although Rust claimed this was from
            Columbia files. Do we also believe he was lying ?

            This issue must finally be decided aurally and that is subjective. There is
            near contemporary aural evidence of Buster which shows playing consistent in
            style with, and certainly not anomalous to, the last three Columbias. There
            is also aural evidence that the acoustic and balance of the last three sides
            is different from 'Chattanooga'. It is possible, as Mr Rains, to construct a
            scenario wherein the balance was altered during a single session but that
            the latter three sides were made at a later session is more probable because
            there were, after all, no playback possibilities in acoustic days.

            Also difficult to ignore Noone's own confirmation and denial of his presence
            when played these sides.


            Dave








            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Howard Rye
            ... I have also seen these file cards and Brian is certainly not lying, but there is room for alternative interpretations. What follows only summarizes the
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 30, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              on 29/09/2011 14:32, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

              >
              >
              > However, we are left with the lack of documentary evidence for the Columbias
              > being split over two consecutive days although Rust claimed this was from
              > Columbia files. Do we also believe he was lying ?
              >
              >
              I have also seen these file cards and Brian is certainly not lying, but
              there is room for alternative interpretations.

              What follows only summarizes the conclusions set out by Laurie Wright in
              King Joe Oliver (pages 31-2), but the surviving filing from this era does
              not show recording dates. The source of the recording dates shown by earlier
              writers including the original Allen/Rust book is simply no longer known.
              However, this was published before Rust had had access to the files. Thew
              dates are claimed to be from the Columbia files and appear already in
              Delaunay, but were not known to Index to Jazz.

              All that can be said is that they can no longer be verified.

              The surviving file cards show only shipping dates. This date is 20 October
              1923 for 81300, 81301 (unissued) and 81302 takes-1-2-3 (unissued). For 81302
              takes 4-5, 81303, and 81304 the shipping date is 23 October 1923. There can
              be no doubt that, as Laurie Wright reports, the file card for 81302 has been
              reinserted in the typewriter to add the two additional takes, so this is not
              merely a techinical matter.

              Laurie of course believed that two clarinettists were involved and that one
              of them is heard only on 81300. It will be evident that anyone who wants to
              say this is a circular argument cannot be disproved with the data now
              available.

              I have not bothered to intervene before because clearly those who wish to
              discuss this have already rejected the conclusions in King Joe Oliver on the
              basis of rejecting the interpretation of the facts there given. They have no
              new facts to offer. Richard Rains hears what he wants to hear and is
              perfectly entitled to do so. He is perfectly entitled also to argue that
              Laurie Wright was doing the same. For my part I shall continue to regard
              Laurie¹s interpretation as definitive in the absence of any new evidence. I
              also, if I am honest, regard this continual speculative reworking of
              familiar ground as a waste of time when there is so much real research which
              could be being done.

              But to get back to the point. No Brian was not lying. I also guess Charles
              Delaunay had seen filing at Columbia that no longer existed by the 1970s.

              Incidentally in 1961 Columbia still had masters of at least one take of
              81300/03/04, not that it does us any good, and that was fifty years worth of
              new brooms ago at that.
              >


              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Brown
              Many thanks to Howard for the totally authoritative discographical overview. My question as to whether Rust was lying was rhetorical and I hope I implied that
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 4, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Many thanks to Howard for the totally authoritative discographical overview.

                My question as to whether Rust was lying was rhetorical and I hope I implied
                that I did not believe the conspiracy theory involving Rust, Buster and/or
                Klein and did not reject Laurie's opinion and research, which documentary
                evidence from files and Buster, and even Noone, supports.

                Although new documentary evidence is unlikely to appear, I do think such
                chestnuts can usefully be revisited in the light of new technology. The
                latest transcriptions offer detail that could never have been imagined in
                the days of the discographical pioneers. It is possible now to slow and
                speed and superimpose and compare extracts and even sound waves.

                But, in end, even aural evidence of this refined definition is subjective.

                Dave


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.