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RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues

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  • David Brown
    Hi Michael Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 29, 2011
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      Hi Michael

      Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
      October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
      wherever was he ? -- in October 1923.


      Dave


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • ALAN BOND
      Hi Folks,               I have to agree that there are a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver s CJB in 1923/24 but we
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Folks,
                      I have to agree that there are
        a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver's CJB in 1923/24 but we can't be certain that he replaced Dodds on a full time basis. It would appear that Dodds didn't enjoy exactly robust health at the time and
        this may equate to the reason why he didn't appear on the Columbia sides. There is a gap between October 1923 & October 1924 and I will make a suggestion (and it can be no more than that) that Dodds
        was suffering from some kind of viral illness which affected his ability
        to perform his work and this kept him out work for about a year.
        Tuberculosis or  rheumatic fever are possibilities but it could have
        been something else which required a lengthy period of convalescence. He did some work in late 1924
        with Tommy Ladnier as accompanist to the singing duo Ford & Ford and also with Edmonia Henderson which is followed by a gap until November 1925 when he joined Armstrong's Hot Five whose first session was as accompanists to Hociel Thomas. It would seem likely that it was due to Louis Armstrong that he did the work with Tommy Ladnier in 1924 and then, when Louis got the contract for the Hot Five & Seven sides, he got Dodds in, perhaps partly out of friendship, but certainly because of his musicianship. From then on Dodds recorded prolifically until late 1928 when he disappears from the recording scene for about ten years. Even so, he was not idle during this period as he was working consistently in clubs and bars in Chicago throughout the 'thirties and even if the work was probably not particularly lucrative, it would at least have been regular. It also says a lot about Louis and the way he looked after his friends and this is typified by
        reports that he reputedly paid Honore Dutrey's hospital bills in 1934/5.
        TTFN - 007

        --- On Mon,
        29/8/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:

        From: David Brown
        <johnhaleysims@...>
        Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 14:56

        Hi Michael

        Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
        October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
        wherever was he  ?  -- in October 1923.


        Dave


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nick Dellow
        Charles Delaunay gives the recording date as 15/16 October 1923 in his discography, but it isn t clear from this if he means 15th AND 16th or 15th OR 16th.
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Charles Delaunay gives the recording date as "15/16 October 1923" in his
          discography, but it isn't clear from this if he means 15th AND 16th or 15th
          OR 16th. The Archeophone CD set states "circa" for both 15th and 16th, with
          "Chattanooga Stomp" on the 15th and "London (Cafe) Blues", "Camp Meeting
          Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. This is also the case in the
          revised 'King Joe Oliver' by Laurie Wright, as well as the latest edition of
          Jazz Records (6th Edition).



          However, in the original edition of "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) the
          date given for all the sides is October 15th. Crucially, in the notes for
          this session there appears the following comment: "Recording date and
          rejected takes are from Columbia files". If this is the case, then why the
          change to 15th and 16th in Jazz Records?



          In the first and second editions of Jazz Records both "Chattanooga Stomp"
          and "London (Cafe) Blues" are stated to have been recorded on the 15th with
          "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. Only by the third
          edition is "Chattanooga" on the 15th with the other three on the 16th.
          Nowhere does Brian Rust apply "circa", which I really think he should have
          done, as there was (and still is!) obviously a lack of consensus!



          Just to complicate matters, the first and second editions of Jazz Records
          gives Buster Bailey as being on all four of the Columbias, the third to
          fifth editions have "Buster Bailey or Jimmie Noone" for all four Columbias,
          and the sixth edition has Jimmie Noone on "Chattanooga" only with Bailey on
          the remaining three sides. In the original edition of "Joe King Oliver",
          there is no mention of Buster Bailey for the Columbia session; Jimmie Noone
          is assigned to all the Columbia sides.



          Incidentally, the differences in tone and balance between the first Columbia
          side ("Chattanooga") and the others does not necessarily mean that they must
          have been recorded on different days. There could have been a break on the
          same day while adjustments to the recording equipment and studio settings
          were made. The fact that no less than seven masters following "Chattanooga"
          were rejected ("Junk Man Blues" takes 1 to 3, and "London Blues" takes 1 to
          4) certainly suggests some sort of problem with the equipment and/or
          instrument balance.



          The notes in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) also state that "Preston
          Jackson once said (Down Beat, Nov 1, 1942) that Oliver used Noone and Atkins
          on one date, and this is evidently it; the trombone is certainly not Dutrey
          so is likely to be Atkins. The clarinet is not Dodds; WR once played this
          for Dodds, who said it was not himself. Noone admitted being on one side
          (Jazz Information, II:16) and can be identified by ear (Hughes Panassi�, WR,
          John D.R. Wheater, Brian A.L. Rust, Walter C. Allen, Charles Delaunay, Dave
          Stuart, Gene Williams). Noone is said to have both identified and disclaimed
          his presence on hearing these records." If Brian Rust is sure it is Noone
          here, then why the change to Buster Bailey for all four Columbias in Jazz
          Records?



          According to Rex Harris and Max Jones in Collector's Corner (Melody Maker,
          1947), "It is known that Oliver was angry with Dodds (or some say he used a
          different personnel because he was recording for Columbia) and took Jimmy
          Noone in his place. He may have used Ed Atkins too, instead of Dutrey."



          My own view is that Buster Bailey is the clarinettist on "London Blues",
          "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" and possibly on all four sides.
          I have prepared a sound clip comparing the clarinet solo in "Camp Meeting
          Blues" with a clip from a known Bailey side - "Squeeze Me" � one of the solo
          sides he recorded for Banner in May 1925. Allowing for the gap of 19 months,
          and the different studios, these sound like they could very well be the work
          of the same man (at least to my ears). The vibrato (the best sonic
          fingerprint in my view) is all but identical. Of course, early Bailey
          clarinet is quite different from the later, thinner toned (and flashier)
          solos he recorded with Henderson. Part of the reason for the difference in
          tone between early and later Bailey is, I think, that the earlier Bailey was
          playing an Albert system clarinet, which of course produces a "woodier"
          sound.



          If anyone would like an mp3 of this sound comparison file, please email me
          and I will send it to them.





          Nick






          On 30 August 2011 08:28, ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Hi Folks,
          > I have to agree that there are
          > a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver's CJB
          > in 1923/24 but we can't be certain that he replaced Dodds on a full time
          > basis. It would appear that Dodds didn't enjoy exactly robust health at the
          > time and
          > this may equate to the reason why he didn't appear on the Columbia sides.
          > There is a gap between October 1923 & October 1924 and I will make a
          > suggestion (and it can be no more than that) that Dodds
          > was suffering from some kind of viral illness which affected his ability
          > to perform his work and this kept him out work for about a year.
          > Tuberculosis or rheumatic fever are possibilities but it could have
          > been something else which required a lengthy period of convalescence. He
          > did some work in late 1924
          > with Tommy Ladnier as accompanist to the singing duo Ford & Ford and also
          > with Edmonia Henderson which is followed by a gap until November 1925 when
          > he joined Armstrong's Hot Five whose first session was as accompanists to
          > Hociel Thomas. It would seem likely that it was due to Louis Armstrong that
          > he did the work with Tommy Ladnier in 1924 and then, when Louis got the
          > contract for the Hot Five & Seven sides, he got Dodds in, perhaps partly out
          > of friendship, but certainly because of his musicianship. From then on Dodds
          > recorded prolifically until late 1928 when he disappears from the recording
          > scene for about ten years. Even so, he was not idle during this period as he
          > was working consistently in clubs and bars in Chicago throughout the
          > 'thirties and even if the work was probably not particularly lucrative, it
          > would at least have been regular. It also says a lot about Louis and the way
          > he looked after his friends and this is typified by
          > reports that he reputedly paid Honore Dutrey's hospital bills in 1934/5.
          > TTFN - 007
          >
          > --- On Mon,
          > 29/8/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: David Brown
          > <johnhaleysims@...>
          > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
          > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 14:56
          >
          >
          > Hi Michael
          >
          > Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
          > October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
          > wherever was he ? -- in October 1923.
          >
          > Dave
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nick Dellow
          Correction ! - the recording dates in King Joe Oliver (Allen and Rust) are given as 15th for Chattanooga Stomp and London (Cafe) Blues , and 16th for
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Correction ! - the recording dates in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust)
            are given as 15th for "Chattanooga Stomp" and "London (Cafe) Blues", and
            16th for "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp". According to the
            notes, the dates come from the Columbia files. Which still begs the question
            - why was "London Blues" subsequently shifted to the 16th?


            Nick

            On 30 August 2011 11:48, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...> wrote:

            > Charles Delaunay gives the recording date as "15/16 October 1923" in his
            > discography, but it isn't clear from this if he means 15th AND 16th or 15th
            > OR 16th. The Archeophone CD set states "circa" for both 15th and 16th, with
            > "Chattanooga Stomp" on the 15th and "London (Cafe) Blues", "Camp Meeting
            > Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. This is also the case in the
            > revised 'King Joe Oliver' by Laurie Wright, as well as the latest edition of
            > Jazz Records (6th Edition).
            >
            >
            >
            > However, in the original edition of "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) the
            > date given for all the sides is October 15th. Crucially, in the notes for
            > this session there appears the following comment: "Recording date and
            > rejected takes are from Columbia files". If this is the case, then why the
            > change to 15th and 16th in Jazz Records?
            >
            >
            >
            > In the first and second editions of Jazz Records both "Chattanooga Stomp"
            > and "London (Cafe) Blues" are stated to have been recorded on the 15th with
            > "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. Only by the third
            > edition is "Chattanooga" on the 15th with the other three on the 16th.
            > Nowhere does Brian Rust apply "circa", which I really think he should have
            > done, as there was (and still is!) obviously a lack of consensus!
            >
            >
            >
            > Just to complicate matters, the first and second editions of Jazz Records
            > gives Buster Bailey as being on all four of the Columbias, the third to
            > fifth editions have "Buster Bailey or Jimmie Noone" for all four Columbias,
            > and the sixth edition has Jimmie Noone on "Chattanooga" only with Bailey on
            > the remaining three sides. In the original edition of "Joe King Oliver",
            > there is no mention of Buster Bailey for the Columbia session; Jimmie Noone
            > is assigned to all the Columbia sides.
            >
            >
            >
            > Incidentally, the differences in tone and balance between the first
            > Columbia side ("Chattanooga") and the others does not necessarily mean that
            > they must have been recorded on different days. There could have been
            > a break on the same day while adjustments to the recording equipment and
            > studio settings were made. The fact that no less than seven masters
            > following "Chattanooga" were rejected ("Junk Man Blues" takes 1 to 3, and
            > "London Blues" takes 1 to 4) certainly suggests some sort of problem with
            > the equipment and/or instrument balance.
            >
            >
            >
            > The notes in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) also state that "Preston
            > Jackson once said (Down Beat, Nov 1, 1942) that Oliver used Noone and Atkins
            > on one date, and this is evidently it; the trombone is certainly not Dutrey
            > so is likely to be Atkins. The clarinet is not Dodds; WR once played this
            > for Dodds, who said it was not himself. Noone admitted being on one side
            > (Jazz Information, II:16) and can be identified by ear (Hughes Panassi�, WR,
            > John D.R. Wheater, Brian A.L. Rust, Walter C. Allen, Charles Delaunay, Dave
            > Stuart, Gene Williams). Noone is said to have both identified and disclaimed
            > his presence on hearing these records." If Brian Rust is sure it is Noone
            > here, then why the change to Buster Bailey for all four Columbias in Jazz
            > Records?
            >
            >
            >
            > According to Rex Harris and Max Jones in Collector's Corner (Melody Maker,
            > 1947), "It is known that Oliver was angry with Dodds (or some say he used a
            > different personnel because he was recording for Columbia) and took Jimmy
            > Noone in his place. He may have used Ed Atkins too, instead of Dutrey."
            >
            >
            >
            > My own view is that Buster Bailey is the clarinettist on "London Blues",
            > "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" and possibly on all four sides.
            > I have prepared a sound clip comparing the clarinet solo in "Camp Meeting
            > Blues" with a clip from a known Bailey side - "Squeeze Me" � one of the solo
            > sides he recorded for Banner in May 1925. Allowing for the gap of 19 months,
            > and the different studios, these sound like they could very well be the work
            > of the same man (at least to my ears). The vibrato (the best sonic
            > fingerprint in my view) is all but identical. Of course, early Bailey
            > clarinet is quite different from the later, thinner toned (and flashier)
            > solos he recorded with Henderson. Part of the reason for the difference in
            > tone between early and later Bailey is, I think, that the earlier Bailey was
            > playing an Albert system clarinet, which of course produces a "woodier"
            > sound.
            >
            >
            >
            > If anyone would like an mp3 of this sound comparison file, please email me
            > and I will send it to them.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Nick
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On 30 August 2011 08:28, ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:
            >
            >> **
            >>
            >>
            >> Hi Folks,
            >> I have to agree that there are
            >> a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver's CJB
            >> in 1923/24 but we can't be certain that he replaced Dodds on a full time
            >> basis. It would appear that Dodds didn't enjoy exactly robust health at the
            >> time and
            >> this may equate to the reason why he didn't appear on the Columbia sides.
            >> There is a gap between October 1923 & October 1924 and I will make a
            >> suggestion (and it can be no more than that) that Dodds
            >> was suffering from some kind of viral illness which affected his ability
            >> to perform his work and this kept him out work for about a year.
            >> Tuberculosis or rheumatic fever are possibilities but it could have
            >> been something else which required a lengthy period of convalescence. He
            >> did some work in late 1924
            >> with Tommy Ladnier as accompanist to the singing duo Ford & Ford and also
            >> with Edmonia Henderson which is followed by a gap until November 1925 when
            >> he joined Armstrong's Hot Five whose first session was as accompanists to
            >> Hociel Thomas. It would seem likely that it was due to Louis Armstrong that
            >> he did the work with Tommy Ladnier in 1924 and then, when Louis got the
            >> contract for the Hot Five & Seven sides, he got Dodds in, perhaps partly out
            >> of friendship, but certainly because of his musicianship. From then on Dodds
            >> recorded prolifically until late 1928 when he disappears from the recording
            >> scene for about ten years. Even so, he was not idle during this period as he
            >> was working consistently in clubs and bars in Chicago throughout the
            >> 'thirties and even if the work was probably not particularly lucrative, it
            >> would at least have been regular. It also says a lot about Louis and the way
            >> he looked after his friends and this is typified by
            >> reports that he reputedly paid Honore Dutrey's hospital bills in 1934/5.
            >> TTFN - 007
            >>
            >> --- On Mon,
            >> 29/8/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> From: David Brown
            >> <johnhaleysims@...>
            >> Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
            >> To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            >> Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 14:56
            >>
            >>
            >> Hi Michael
            >>
            >> Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
            >> October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
            >> wherever was he ? -- in October 1923.
            >>
            >> Dave
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ALAN BOND
            Hi Folks,                I believe that at one point Buster Bailey used a metal clarinet and at times with the John Kirby band he used an Albert
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Folks,
                             I believe that at one point Buster Bailey used a metal clarinet and at times with the John Kirby band he used an Albert system instrument. Whether we can be sure he used the former on any recordings at all would be a matter for much conjecture but there are occasions among the John Kirby recordings where he appears to be using different instruments.
              TTFN - 007

              --- On Tue, 30/8/11, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...> wrote:

              From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...>
              Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 12:00

              Correction !  -  the recording dates in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust)
              are given as 15th for "Chattanooga Stomp" and "London (Cafe) Blues", and
              16th for "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp". According to the
              notes, the dates come from the Columbia files. Which still begs the question
              - why was "London Blues" subsequently shifted to the 16th?


              Nick

              On 30 August 2011 11:48, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...> wrote:

              > Charles Delaunay gives the recording date as "15/16 October 1923" in his
              > discography, but it isn't clear from this if he means 15th AND 16th or 15th
              > OR 16th. The Archeophone CD set states "circa" for both 15th and 16th, with
              > "Chattanooga Stomp" on the 15th and "London (Cafe) Blues", "Camp Meeting
              > Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. This is also the case in the
              > revised 'King Joe Oliver' by Laurie Wright, as well as the latest edition of
              > Jazz Records (6th Edition).
              >
              >
              >
              > However, in the original edition of "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) the
              > date given for all the sides is October 15th. Crucially, in the notes for
              > this session there appears the following comment: "Recording date and
              > rejected takes are from Columbia files". If this is the case, then why the
              > change to 15th and 16th in Jazz Records?
              >
              >
              >
              > In the first and second editions of Jazz Records both "Chattanooga Stomp"
              > and "London (Cafe) Blues" are stated to have been recorded on the 15th with
              > "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. Only by the third
              > edition is "Chattanooga" on the 15th with the other three on the 16th.
              > Nowhere does Brian Rust apply "circa", which I really think he should have
              > done, as there was (and still is!) obviously a lack of consensus!
              >
              >
              >
              > Just to complicate matters, the first and second editions of Jazz Records
              > gives Buster Bailey as being on all four of the Columbias, the third to
              > fifth editions have "Buster Bailey or Jimmie Noone" for all four Columbias,
              > and the sixth edition has Jimmie Noone on "Chattanooga" only with Bailey on
              > the remaining three sides. In the original edition of "Joe King Oliver",
              > there is no mention of Buster Bailey for the Columbia session; Jimmie Noone
              > is assigned to all the Columbia sides.
              >
              >
              >
              > Incidentally, the differences in tone and balance between the first
              > Columbia side ("Chattanooga") and the others does not necessarily mean that
              > they must have been recorded on different days. There could have been
              > a break on the same day while adjustments to the recording equipment and
              > studio settings were made. The fact that no less than seven masters
              > following "Chattanooga" were rejected ("Junk Man Blues" takes 1 to 3, and
              > "London Blues" takes 1 to 4) certainly suggests some sort of problem with
              > the equipment and/or instrument balance.
              >
              >
              >
              > The notes in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) also state that "Preston
              > Jackson once said (Down Beat, Nov 1, 1942) that Oliver used Noone and Atkins
              > on one date, and this is evidently it; the trombone is certainly not Dutrey
              > so is likely to be Atkins. The clarinet is not Dodds; WR once played this
              > for Dodds, who said it was not himself. Noone admitted being on one side
              > (Jazz Information, II:16) and can be identified by ear (Hughes Panassié, WR,
              > John D.R. Wheater, Brian A.L. Rust, Walter C. Allen, Charles Delaunay, Dave
              > Stuart, Gene Williams). Noone is said to have both identified and disclaimed
              > his presence on hearing these records." If Brian Rust is sure it is Noone
              > here, then why the change to Buster Bailey for all four Columbias in Jazz
              > Records?
              >
              >
              >
              > According to Rex Harris and Max Jones in Collector's Corner (Melody Maker,
              > 1947), "It is known that Oliver was angry with Dodds (or some say he used a
              > different personnel because he was recording for Columbia) and took Jimmy
              > Noone in his place. He may have used Ed Atkins too, instead of Dutrey."
              >
              >
              >
              > My own view is that Buster Bailey is the clarinettist on "London Blues",
              > "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" and possibly on all four sides.
              > I have prepared a sound clip comparing the clarinet solo in "Camp Meeting
              > Blues" with a clip from a known Bailey side - "Squeeze Me" – one of the solo
              > sides he recorded for Banner in May 1925. Allowing for the gap of 19 months,
              > and the different studios, these sound like they could very well be the work
              > of the same man (at least to my ears). The vibrato (the best sonic
              > fingerprint in my view) is all but identical. Of course, early Bailey
              > clarinet is quite different from the later, thinner toned (and flashier)
              > solos he recorded with Henderson. Part of the reason for the difference in
              > tone between early and later Bailey is, I think, that the earlier Bailey was
              > playing an Albert system clarinet, which of course produces a "woodier"
              > sound.
              >
              >
              >
              > If anyone would like an mp3 of this sound comparison file, please email me
              > and I will send it to them.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Nick
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On 30 August 2011 08:28, ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:
              >
              >> **
              >>
              >>
              >> Hi Folks,
              >>               I have to agree that there are
              >> a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver's CJB
              >> in 1923/24 but we can't be certain that he replaced Dodds on a full time
              >> basis. It would appear that Dodds didn't enjoy exactly robust health at the
              >> time and
              >> this may equate to the reason why he didn't appear on the Columbia sides.
              >> There is a gap between October 1923 & October 1924 and I will make a
              >> suggestion (and it can be no more than that) that Dodds
              >> was suffering from some kind of viral illness which affected his ability
              >> to perform his work and this kept him out work for about a year.
              >> Tuberculosis or  rheumatic fever are possibilities but it could have
              >> been something else which required a lengthy period of convalescence. He
              >> did some work in late 1924
              >> with Tommy Ladnier as accompanist to the singing duo Ford & Ford and also
              >> with Edmonia Henderson which is followed by a gap until November 1925 when
              >> he joined Armstrong's Hot Five whose first session was as accompanists to
              >> Hociel Thomas. It would seem likely that it was due to Louis Armstrong that
              >> he did the work with Tommy Ladnier in 1924 and then, when Louis got the
              >> contract for the Hot Five & Seven sides, he got Dodds in, perhaps partly out
              >> of friendship, but certainly because of his musicianship. From then on Dodds
              >> recorded prolifically until late 1928 when he disappears from the recording
              >> scene for about ten years. Even so, he was not idle during this period as he
              >> was working consistently in clubs and bars in Chicago throughout the
              >> 'thirties and even if the work was probably not particularly lucrative, it
              >> would at least have been regular. It also says a lot about Louis and the way
              >> he looked after his friends and this is typified by
              >> reports that he reputedly paid Honore Dutrey's hospital bills in 1934/5.
              >> TTFN - 007
              >>
              >> --- On Mon,
              >> 29/8/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> From: David Brown
              >> <johnhaleysims@...>
              >> Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
              >> To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              >> Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 14:56
              >>
              >>
              >> Hi Michael
              >>
              >> Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
              >> October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
              >> wherever was he  ?  -- in October 1923.
              >>
              >> Dave
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >> 
              >>
              >
              >


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            • silverleafjb
              snip What I previously observed was that the unmistakable sweet sound -- tone -- ... I m going out on a limb here, but it is within the realm of possibility
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
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                snip> What I previously observed was that the unmistakable sweet sound -- tone --
                > of Noone is absent from the last three Columbia sides which were apparently
                > recorded on the day after the first side. And does anybody know the evidence
                > for this ? The acoustic and balance for these sides -- and the tone of the
                > clarinet -- certainly sound different.
                >

                I'm going out on a limb here, but it is within the realm of possibility that Noone may have felt obligated to alter his sweet sound in favor of the more rugged sound of the Oliver band. I think there were two sides to Noone and his playing became sweeter the older he got.

                Cheers,
                Chris
              • silverleafjb
                ALAN BOND wrote: snip I would, however, disagree with the conclusions regarding Buster Bailey. His technical ability was far in advance of
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
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                  ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:
                  snip> I would, however, disagree with the conclusions regarding Buster Bailey. His technical ability was far in advance of Noone's, as his work with Fletcher Henderson and John Kirby testifies.

                  Not to be contentious, Alan, but you are referring to Bailey ten years later, in the context of Kirby and Henderson. And my original comment was:

                  "Bailey was a capable clarinetist but he just didn't have the FEELING that Noone did."

                  IMO Noone played with a much better "jazz" feel (for lack of a better term for it) than Bailey. Yes, Bailey had prodigious technique, but to me, I've never been able to stand the tone he got on the instrument. I'd rather hear a clarinetist with a nice tone and limited technique than someone with lots of technique. My feeling is technique is only a means to an end, not the end itself, and that goes for anyone playing any instrument.

                  He did play metal clarinet but I don't think he ever played Albert. At least I've never seen a photo of him with an Albert.

                  I also believe Noone took lessons from Franz Schoepp.

                  Cheers,
                  Chris
                • David Brown
                  Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history. You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for -- the
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
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                    Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history.

                    You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for --
                    the continual discographical amendments ?

                    Perhaps somebody with Storyvilles -- and an index -- could check for this
                    topic.

                    What this proves is that the clarinet on the Columbias has always been
                    contentious and it is not so easy to pick and open to alternative aural
                    interpretation. I myself have heard it both -- if not all -- ways over the
                    years.

                    The 7 rejected takes might also suggest a problem with the musicians rather
                    than the equipment. Certainly Noone on 'Chattanooga' sounds less than his
                    fluent best and the playing on the other three sides is stronger. I can't
                    think there was any temperamental or musical clash between Oliver and Noone
                    and maybe the latter was 'under the weather' and, for reasons of safety, an
                    alternative was found for the next day's session.

                    As to Buster, he was a better jazz player earlier, when his models were New
                    Orleanian, and before his studies with Schoepp which I consider the reason
                    for his drastic change is style. But I also note that Noone studied with
                    Schoepp.

                    The tenuous and circumstantial documentary evidence would seem to come down
                    for the Columbias having both Noone and Buster.

                    Aurally, you pays your money and takes your choice but I believe, without
                    doubt, that Noone is on 'Chattanooga'.


                    Dave





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • ALAN BOND
                    Hi Folks,                 That sounds like a reasonable theory to me and I don t think we are going to get any closer unless new information
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
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                      Hi Folks,
                                      That sounds like a reasonable theory to me and I don't think we are going to get any closer unless new information surfaces.
                                      I am afraid I can't agree that Buster Bailey was a better jazz player in 1923 than he was in, say, 1940. His work with John Kirby alone is proof of that. It's very like saying that Ian Wheeler was a better player when he was with Ken Colyer than when he was with Chris Barber. Musicians develop their skills over time just like anyone else who takes an interest in their craft and they are also subject to other musical influences.

                      TTFN - 007

                      --- On Thu, 1/9/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrotIe:

                      From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                      Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 9:52

                      Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history.

                      You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for --
                      the continual discographical amendments ?

                      Perhaps somebody with Storyvilles -- and an index -- could check for this
                      topic.

                      What this proves is that the clarinet on the Columbias has always been
                      contentious and it is not so easy to pick and open to alternative aural
                      interpretation. I myself have heard it both -- if not all -- ways over the
                      years.

                      The 7 rejected takes might also suggest a problem with the musicians rather
                      than the equipment. Certainly Noone on 'Chattanooga' sounds less than his
                      fluent best and the playing on the other three sides is stronger. I can't
                      think there was any temperamental or musical clash between Oliver and Noone
                      and maybe the latter was 'under the weather' and, for reasons of safety, an
                      alternative was found for the next day's session.

                      As to Buster, he was a better jazz player earlier, when his models were New
                      Orleanian, and before his studies with Schoepp which I  consider the reason
                      for his drastic change is style. But I also note that Noone studied with
                      Schoepp.

                      The tenuous and circumstantial documentary evidence would seem to come down
                      for the Columbias having both Noone and Buster.

                      Aurally, you pays your money and takes your choice but I believe, without
                      doubt, that Noone is on 'Chattanooga'.


                      Dave





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Howard Rye
                      This is a disagreement caused merely by failure to define terms. Bailey was unquestionably technically superior in 1940 but does this make him a better jazz
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
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                        This is a disagreement caused merely by failure to define terms. Bailey was
                        unquestionably technically superior in 1940 but does this make him a better
                        jazz player? Many commentators, especially those oriented towards
                        traditional jazz, have thought otherwise.

                        John Chilton¹s ³Deficient in the emotional directness expected of the
                        greatest jazz musicians¹ (Grove) is at least a sustainable comment, but not
                        in respect of his earliest recordings. It¹s clear to me that he chose to
                        play in a more detached style with Kirby and on other later associations.
                        Some of his blues accompaniments show that it was a choice and that he could
                        still achieve a different balance between emotion and technique when he
                        wanted.


                        on 01/09/2011 12:06, ALAN BOND at alan_bond@... wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Folks,
                        >                 That sounds like a reasonable theory to me and I don't think
                        > we are going to get any closer unless new information surfaces.
                        >                 I am afraid I can't agree that Buster Bailey was a better jazz
                        > player in 1923 than he was in, say, 1940. His work with John Kirby alone is
                        > proof of that. It's very like saying that Ian Wheeler was a better player when
                        > he was with Ken Colyer than when he was with Chris Barber. Musicians develop
                        > their skills over time just like anyone else who takes an interest in their
                        > craft and they are also subject to other musical influences.
                        >
                        > TTFN - 007
                        >
                        > --- On Thu, 1/9/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...
                        > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> > wrotIe:
                        >
                        > From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...
                        > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> >
                        > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                        > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 9:52
                        >
                        > Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history.
                        >
                        > You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for --
                        > the continual discographical amendments ?
                        >
                        > Perhaps somebody with Storyvilles -- and an index -- could check for this
                        > topic.
                        >
                        > What this proves is that the clarinet on the Columbias has always been
                        > contentious and it is not so easy to pick and open to alternative aural
                        > interpretation. I myself have heard it both -- if not all -- ways over the
                        > years.
                        >
                        > The 7 rejected takes might also suggest a problem with the musicians rather
                        > than the equipment. Certainly Noone on 'Chattanooga' sounds less than his
                        > fluent best and the playing on the other three sides is stronger. I can't
                        > think there was any temperamental or musical clash between Oliver and Noone
                        > and maybe the latter was 'under the weather' and, for reasons of safety, an
                        > alternative was found for the next day's session.
                        >
                        > As to Buster, he was a better jazz player earlier, when his models were New
                        > Orleanian, and before his studies with Schoepp which I  consider the reason
                        > for his drastic change is style. But I also note that Noone studied with
                        > Schoepp.
                        >
                        > The tenuous and circumstantial documentary evidence would seem to come down
                        > for the Columbias having both Noone and Buster.
                        >
                        > Aurally, you pays your money and takes your choice but I believe, without
                        > doubt, that Noone is on 'Chattanooga'.
                        >
                        > Dave
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                        howard@...
                        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • ALAN BOND
                        Hi Folks,               Answer - YES TTFN - 007 ... From: Howard Rye Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
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                          Hi Folks,
                                        Answer - YES
                          TTFN - 007

                          --- On Thu, 1/9/11, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:

                          From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                          To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                          Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 12:19

                          This is a disagreement caused merely by failure to define terms. Bailey was
                          unquestionably technically superior in 1940 but does this make him a better
                          jazz player? Many commentators, especially those oriented towards
                          traditional jazz, have thought otherwise.

                          John Chilton¹s ³Deficient in the emotional directness expected of the
                          greatest jazz musicians¹ (Grove) is at least a sustainable comment, but not
                          in respect of his earliest recordings. It¹s clear to me that he chose to
                          play in a more detached style with Kirby and on other later associations.
                          Some of his blues accompaniments show that it was a choice and that he could
                          still achieve a different balance between emotion and technique when he
                          wanted.


                          on 01/09/2011 12:06, ALAN BOND at alan_bond@... wrote:




                          >   
                          >
                          > Hi Folks,
                          >                 That sounds like a reasonable theory to me and I don't think
                          > we are going to get any closer unless new information surfaces.
                          >                 I am afraid I can't agree that Buster Bailey was a better jazz
                          > player in 1923 than he was in, say, 1940. His work with John Kirby alone is
                          > proof of that. It's very like saying that Ian Wheeler was a better player when
                          > he was with Ken Colyer than when he was with Chris Barber. Musicians develop
                          > their skills over time just like anyone else who takes an interest in their
                          > craft and they are also subject to other musical influences.
                          >
                          > TTFN - 007
                          >
                          > --- On Thu, 1/9/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...
                          > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> > wrotIe:
                          >
                          > From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...
                          > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> >
                          > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                          > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 9:52
                          >
                          > Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history.
                          >
                          > You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for --
                          > the continual discographical amendments ?
                          >
                          > Perhaps somebody with Storyvilles -- and an index -- could check for this
                          > topic.
                          >
                          > What this proves is that the clarinet on the Columbias has always been
                          > contentious and it is not so easy to pick and open to alternative aural
                          > interpretation. I myself have heard it both -- if not all -- ways over the
                          > years.
                          >
                          > The 7 rejected takes might also suggest a problem with the musicians rather
                          > than the equipment. Certainly Noone on 'Chattanooga' sounds less than his
                          > fluent best and the playing on the other three sides is stronger. I can't
                          > think there was any temperamental or musical clash between Oliver and Noone
                          > and maybe the latter was 'under the weather' and, for reasons of safety, an
                          > alternative was found for the next day's session.
                          >
                          > As to Buster, he was a better jazz player earlier, when his models were New
                          > Orleanian, and before his studies with Schoepp which I  consider the reason
                          > for his drastic change is style. But I also note that Noone studied with
                          > Schoepp.
                          >
                          > The tenuous and circumstantial documentary evidence would seem to come down
                          > for the Columbias having both Noone and Buster.
                          >
                          > Aurally, you pays your money and takes your choice but I believe, without
                          > doubt, that Noone is on 'Chattanooga'.
                          >
                          > Dave
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >

                          >   
                          >
                          >

                             
                          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                          howard@...
                          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          ------------------------------------

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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • David Brown
                          Right Howard There are indeed a few late examples of Buster playing a good blues but his normal blues mode was rather too glib. However, this style totally
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
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                            Right Howard

                            There are indeed a few late examples of Buster playing a good blues but his
                            normal blues mode was rather too glib. However, this style totally suited
                            the 'tight arsed' Kirby band of which he was the best part.

                            I can't remember source but Buster was extremely jealous of Goodman,
                            considering himself the better player and this was the reason for the rather
                            dreadful 'Man With A Horn Goes Berserk' in which he displays his speed at
                            the sacrifice of music and any semblance of jazz tone or even decent
                            classical tone.

                            Goodman reported playing duets with Buster for Schoepp but I doubt if
                            either, or Noone, had their jazz playing enhanced. Noone also became rather
                            glib although even late could play a sublime blues.

                            Goodman's jazz was even more damaged by his studies with Kell and I posit
                            that 'proper' classical technique is really inimical to jazz and certainly
                            jazz tone, whatever that is.

                            I also conjecture that the riches that we have within our 'red hot' period
                            are due, in no small part, to the fact that the musicians were self, or
                            badly, taught and often had 'faulty' technique.


                            Dave


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • ALAN BOND
                            Hi Folks,               If you want blues feeling from a clarinet player look no further than Russell Procope or Barney Bigard. The former is on
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
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                              Hi Folks,
                                            If you want blues feeling from a clarinet player look no further than Russell Procope or Barney Bigard. The former is on Jelly Roll Morton's 'Deep Creek' and his short clarinet passage there has more blues feeling than I would have credited to any man. Bigard, of course, spent all those years with Duke Ellington and his chair was latterly taken by Russell Procope who added another value to the rich tapestry of the Ellington band. Neither of them were 'flashy' technical players either and both paid homage to Buster Bailey at one time or another.
                              TTFN - 007

                              --- On Thu, 1/9/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:

                              From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                              Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 15:46

                              Right Howard

                              There are indeed a few late examples of Buster playing a good blues but his
                              normal blues mode was rather too glib. However, this style totally suited
                              the 'tight arsed' Kirby band of which he was the best part.

                              I can't remember source but Buster was extremely jealous of Goodman,
                              considering himself the better player and this was the reason for the rather
                              dreadful 'Man With A Horn Goes Berserk' in which he displays his speed at
                              the sacrifice of music and any semblance of jazz tone or even decent
                              classical tone.

                              Goodman reported playing duets with Buster for Schoepp but I doubt if
                              either, or Noone, had their jazz playing enhanced. Noone also became rather
                              glib although even late could play a sublime blues.

                              Goodman's jazz was even more damaged by his studies with Kell and I posit
                              that 'proper' classical technique is really inimical to jazz and certainly
                              jazz tone, whatever that is.

                              I also conjecture that the riches that we have within our 'red hot' period
                              are due, in no small part, to the fact that the musicians were self, or
                              badly, taught and often had 'faulty' technique.


                              Dave


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                              Yahoo! Groups Links





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • David Brown
                              Alan If it is Procope on Deep Creek I think the clarinet solo was written out by Morton because it is far more convincing blues than anything else he ever
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
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                                Alan

                                If it is Procope on 'Deep Creek' I think the clarinet solo was written out
                                by Morton because it is far more convincing blues than anything else he ever
                                played. I feel that with Ellington he offered pastiche of N.O. clarinet.


                                Dave


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • David Brown
                                An essay by Richard Rains on this subject appears in the latest VJM magazine. Mr Rains comes down for Noone throughout although fails to offer any new
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 29, 2011
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                                  An essay by Richard Rains on this subject appears in the latest VJM
                                  magazine.

                                  Mr Rains comes down for Noone throughout although fails to offer any new
                                  evidence.

                                  On the contrary, he specifies the claim by Buster to Arnold Klein that he
                                  played on one Columbia date and, at one time, had test pressings.

                                  For us to discount this, as does Mr Rains, we must believe that either Klein
                                  or Buster were lying -- elaborately.

                                  However, we are left with the lack of documentary evidence for the Columbias
                                  being split over two consecutive days although Rust claimed this was from
                                  Columbia files. Do we also believe he was lying ?

                                  This issue must finally be decided aurally and that is subjective. There is
                                  near contemporary aural evidence of Buster which shows playing consistent in
                                  style with, and certainly not anomalous to, the last three Columbias. There
                                  is also aural evidence that the acoustic and balance of the last three sides
                                  is different from 'Chattanooga'. It is possible, as Mr Rains, to construct a
                                  scenario wherein the balance was altered during a single session but that
                                  the latter three sides were made at a later session is more probable because
                                  there were, after all, no playback possibilities in acoustic days.

                                  Also difficult to ignore Noone's own confirmation and denial of his presence
                                  when played these sides.


                                  Dave








                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Howard Rye
                                  ... I have also seen these file cards and Brian is certainly not lying, but there is room for alternative interpretations. What follows only summarizes the
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 30, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    on 29/09/2011 14:32, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > However, we are left with the lack of documentary evidence for the Columbias
                                    > being split over two consecutive days although Rust claimed this was from
                                    > Columbia files. Do we also believe he was lying ?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    I have also seen these file cards and Brian is certainly not lying, but
                                    there is room for alternative interpretations.

                                    What follows only summarizes the conclusions set out by Laurie Wright in
                                    King Joe Oliver (pages 31-2), but the surviving filing from this era does
                                    not show recording dates. The source of the recording dates shown by earlier
                                    writers including the original Allen/Rust book is simply no longer known.
                                    However, this was published before Rust had had access to the files. Thew
                                    dates are claimed to be from the Columbia files and appear already in
                                    Delaunay, but were not known to Index to Jazz.

                                    All that can be said is that they can no longer be verified.

                                    The surviving file cards show only shipping dates. This date is 20 October
                                    1923 for 81300, 81301 (unissued) and 81302 takes-1-2-3 (unissued). For 81302
                                    takes 4-5, 81303, and 81304 the shipping date is 23 October 1923. There can
                                    be no doubt that, as Laurie Wright reports, the file card for 81302 has been
                                    reinserted in the typewriter to add the two additional takes, so this is not
                                    merely a techinical matter.

                                    Laurie of course believed that two clarinettists were involved and that one
                                    of them is heard only on 81300. It will be evident that anyone who wants to
                                    say this is a circular argument cannot be disproved with the data now
                                    available.

                                    I have not bothered to intervene before because clearly those who wish to
                                    discuss this have already rejected the conclusions in King Joe Oliver on the
                                    basis of rejecting the interpretation of the facts there given. They have no
                                    new facts to offer. Richard Rains hears what he wants to hear and is
                                    perfectly entitled to do so. He is perfectly entitled also to argue that
                                    Laurie Wright was doing the same. For my part I shall continue to regard
                                    Laurie¹s interpretation as definitive in the absence of any new evidence. I
                                    also, if I am honest, regard this continual speculative reworking of
                                    familiar ground as a waste of time when there is so much real research which
                                    could be being done.

                                    But to get back to the point. No Brian was not lying. I also guess Charles
                                    Delaunay had seen filing at Columbia that no longer existed by the 1970s.

                                    Incidentally in 1961 Columbia still had masters of at least one take of
                                    81300/03/04, not that it does us any good, and that was fifty years worth of
                                    new brooms ago at that.
                                    >


                                    Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                    howard@...
                                    Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • David Brown
                                    Many thanks to Howard for the totally authoritative discographical overview. My question as to whether Rust was lying was rhetorical and I hope I implied that
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Oct 4, 2011
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                                      Many thanks to Howard for the totally authoritative discographical overview.

                                      My question as to whether Rust was lying was rhetorical and I hope I implied
                                      that I did not believe the conspiracy theory involving Rust, Buster and/or
                                      Klein and did not reject Laurie's opinion and research, which documentary
                                      evidence from files and Buster, and even Noone, supports.

                                      Although new documentary evidence is unlikely to appear, I do think such
                                      chestnuts can usefully be revisited in the light of new technology. The
                                      latest transcriptions offer detail that could never have been imagined in
                                      the days of the discographical pioneers. It is possible now to slow and
                                      speed and superimpose and compare extracts and even sound waves.

                                      But, in end, even aural evidence of this refined definition is subjective.

                                      Dave


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