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Re: [RedHotJazz] Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues

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  • ALAN BOND
    Hi Folks,               Given some of the evidence subsequent to WCA & BALR s conclusions I would have agreed with you, but the subject cropped up
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 29, 2011
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      Hi Folks,
                    Given some of the evidence subsequent to WCA & BALR's conclusions I would have agreed with you, but the subject cropped up some years ago and the question was put to someone who knew Bailey quite well from his time with Clarence Williams in 1923 and this person stated that they had been told by Buster Bailey that he had worked regularly with the King Oliver Band at around the same time. I am not able to say who it was with any certainty but the conclusion is that it may possibly have been Eva Taylor. It may be that Bailey was not the regular clarinet player in the Oliver band but may have been deputising for Dodds who did not always enjoy the best of health. The other connection was via Armstrong and his early work with Clarence Williams' Blue five in 1923.
                       As regards the latter, Eva Taylor recalled the sessions very well for the pyrotechnic exchanges between Louis and Sidney Bechet, who had a battle royal while attempting to blow one another off the stage (e.g. Cakewalkin' Babies) and this to the extent that poor Charlie Irvis was almost reduced to the level of an onlooker. Great music indeed but tough times for many musicians trying to eke out a living.
      TTFN - 007

      --- On Sun, 28/8/11, fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...> wrote:

      From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
      Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, 28 August, 2011, 23:32

      No, Alan - Bailey was never the regular clarinet player with the
      OliverBand. It was Johnny Dodd(s) at this time.

      Chris Tyle is quite right about the Noone i/d on the Columbias. The
      gentleman "jazzologist" who started the Bailey hare all those years ago
      has a lot to answer for !

      J T Dyamond.

      Ar 28/08/11 23:21 :01, scríobh ALAN BOND:
      >
      > Hi Folks,
      >                I am very much inclined to agree with this conclusion
      > and and at least eight leading authorities have identified the
      > clarinet player on this Oliver session as Jimmie Noone. However,
      >
      Buster Bailey was the regular clarinet player with the Oliver band at
      > this time so just why he was not available for this session is a mystery.
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------

      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Brown
      Nice to have this one riding again. What I previously observed was that the unmistakable sweet sound -- tone -- of Noone is absent from the last three Columbia
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 29, 2011
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        Nice to have this one riding again.

        What I previously observed was that the unmistakable sweet sound -- tone --
        of Noone is absent from the last three Columbia sides which were apparently
        recorded on the day after the first side. And does anybody know the evidence
        for this ? The acoustic and balance for these sides -- and the tone of the
        clarinet -- certainly sound different.

        Buster was a fine technician and, chameleonlike, could cover various styles.

        There is also a story -- which I cannot at the moment find -- that Buster
        carried around with him a KOCJB record as an example of his own playing.The
        only record which would fit here is the issue of Camp Meeting/London Cafe.

        It is also reported in 'King Joe Oliver' that Noone, enigmatically, both
        confirmed and denied his presence when played these sides. This also speaks
        for his presence on only one side.


        Dave





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael
        Well, there is a photo showing Bailey as a member of King Oliver s Creole Jazz Band in 1924. It is included in the Martin Williams Kings of Jazz Book on King
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 29, 2011
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          Well, there is a photo showing Bailey as a member of King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band in 1924. It is included in the Martin Williams Kings of Jazz Book on King Oliver.

          Michael Rader

          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Folks,
          >               Given some of the evidence subsequent to WCA & BALR's conclusions I would have agreed with you, but the subject cropped up some years ago and the question was put to someone who knew Bailey quite well from his time with Clarence Williams in 1923 and this person stated that they had been told by Buster Bailey that he had worked regularly with the King Oliver Band at around the same time. I am not able to say who it was with any certainty but the conclusion is that it may possibly have been Eva Taylor. It may be that Bailey was not the regular clarinet player in the Oliver band but may have been deputising for Dodds who did not always enjoy the best of health. The other connection was via Armstrong and his early work with Clarence Williams' Blue five in 1923.
          >                  As regards the latter, Eva Taylor recalled the sessions very well for the pyrotechnic exchanges between Louis and Sidney Bechet, who had a battle royal while attempting to blow one another off the stage (e.g. Cakewalkin' Babies) and this to the extent that poor Charlie Irvis was almost reduced to the level of an onlooker. Great music indeed but tough times for many musicians trying to eke out a living.
          > TTFN - 007
          >
          > --- On Sun, 28/8/11, fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
          > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
          > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Sunday, 28 August, 2011, 23:32
          >
          > No, Alan - Bailey was never the regular clarinet player with the
          > OliverBand. It was Johnny Dodd(s) at this time.
          >
          > Chris Tyle is quite right about the Noone i/d on the Columbias. The
          > gentleman "jazzologist" who started the Bailey hare all those years ago
          > has a lot to answer for !
          >
          > J T Dyamond.
          >
          > Ar 28/08/11 23:21 :01, scríobh ALAN BOND:
          > >
          > > Hi Folks,
          > >                I am very much inclined to agree with this conclusion
          > > and and at least eight leading authorities have identified the
          > > clarinet player on this Oliver session as Jimmie Noone. However,
          > >
          > Buster Bailey was the regular clarinet player with the Oliver band at
          > > this time so just why he was not available for this session is a mystery.
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • David Brown
          Hi Michael Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 29, 2011
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            Hi Michael

            Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
            October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
            wherever was he ? -- in October 1923.


            Dave


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ALAN BOND
            Hi Folks,               I have to agree that there are a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver s CJB in 1923/24 but we
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
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              Hi Folks,
                            I have to agree that there are
              a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver's CJB in 1923/24 but we can't be certain that he replaced Dodds on a full time basis. It would appear that Dodds didn't enjoy exactly robust health at the time and
              this may equate to the reason why he didn't appear on the Columbia sides. There is a gap between October 1923 & October 1924 and I will make a suggestion (and it can be no more than that) that Dodds
              was suffering from some kind of viral illness which affected his ability
              to perform his work and this kept him out work for about a year.
              Tuberculosis or  rheumatic fever are possibilities but it could have
              been something else which required a lengthy period of convalescence. He did some work in late 1924
              with Tommy Ladnier as accompanist to the singing duo Ford & Ford and also with Edmonia Henderson which is followed by a gap until November 1925 when he joined Armstrong's Hot Five whose first session was as accompanists to Hociel Thomas. It would seem likely that it was due to Louis Armstrong that he did the work with Tommy Ladnier in 1924 and then, when Louis got the contract for the Hot Five & Seven sides, he got Dodds in, perhaps partly out of friendship, but certainly because of his musicianship. From then on Dodds recorded prolifically until late 1928 when he disappears from the recording scene for about ten years. Even so, he was not idle during this period as he was working consistently in clubs and bars in Chicago throughout the 'thirties and even if the work was probably not particularly lucrative, it would at least have been regular. It also says a lot about Louis and the way he looked after his friends and this is typified by
              reports that he reputedly paid Honore Dutrey's hospital bills in 1934/5.
              TTFN - 007

              --- On Mon,
              29/8/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:

              From: David Brown
              <johnhaleysims@...>
              Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 14:56

              Hi Michael

              Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
              October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
              wherever was he  ?  -- in October 1923.


              Dave


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nick Dellow
              Charles Delaunay gives the recording date as 15/16 October 1923 in his discography, but it isn t clear from this if he means 15th AND 16th or 15th OR 16th.
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
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                Charles Delaunay gives the recording date as "15/16 October 1923" in his
                discography, but it isn't clear from this if he means 15th AND 16th or 15th
                OR 16th. The Archeophone CD set states "circa" for both 15th and 16th, with
                "Chattanooga Stomp" on the 15th and "London (Cafe) Blues", "Camp Meeting
                Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. This is also the case in the
                revised 'King Joe Oliver' by Laurie Wright, as well as the latest edition of
                Jazz Records (6th Edition).



                However, in the original edition of "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) the
                date given for all the sides is October 15th. Crucially, in the notes for
                this session there appears the following comment: "Recording date and
                rejected takes are from Columbia files". If this is the case, then why the
                change to 15th and 16th in Jazz Records?



                In the first and second editions of Jazz Records both "Chattanooga Stomp"
                and "London (Cafe) Blues" are stated to have been recorded on the 15th with
                "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. Only by the third
                edition is "Chattanooga" on the 15th with the other three on the 16th.
                Nowhere does Brian Rust apply "circa", which I really think he should have
                done, as there was (and still is!) obviously a lack of consensus!



                Just to complicate matters, the first and second editions of Jazz Records
                gives Buster Bailey as being on all four of the Columbias, the third to
                fifth editions have "Buster Bailey or Jimmie Noone" for all four Columbias,
                and the sixth edition has Jimmie Noone on "Chattanooga" only with Bailey on
                the remaining three sides. In the original edition of "Joe King Oliver",
                there is no mention of Buster Bailey for the Columbia session; Jimmie Noone
                is assigned to all the Columbia sides.



                Incidentally, the differences in tone and balance between the first Columbia
                side ("Chattanooga") and the others does not necessarily mean that they must
                have been recorded on different days. There could have been a break on the
                same day while adjustments to the recording equipment and studio settings
                were made. The fact that no less than seven masters following "Chattanooga"
                were rejected ("Junk Man Blues" takes 1 to 3, and "London Blues" takes 1 to
                4) certainly suggests some sort of problem with the equipment and/or
                instrument balance.



                The notes in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) also state that "Preston
                Jackson once said (Down Beat, Nov 1, 1942) that Oliver used Noone and Atkins
                on one date, and this is evidently it; the trombone is certainly not Dutrey
                so is likely to be Atkins. The clarinet is not Dodds; WR once played this
                for Dodds, who said it was not himself. Noone admitted being on one side
                (Jazz Information, II:16) and can be identified by ear (Hughes Panassi�, WR,
                John D.R. Wheater, Brian A.L. Rust, Walter C. Allen, Charles Delaunay, Dave
                Stuart, Gene Williams). Noone is said to have both identified and disclaimed
                his presence on hearing these records." If Brian Rust is sure it is Noone
                here, then why the change to Buster Bailey for all four Columbias in Jazz
                Records?



                According to Rex Harris and Max Jones in Collector's Corner (Melody Maker,
                1947), "It is known that Oliver was angry with Dodds (or some say he used a
                different personnel because he was recording for Columbia) and took Jimmy
                Noone in his place. He may have used Ed Atkins too, instead of Dutrey."



                My own view is that Buster Bailey is the clarinettist on "London Blues",
                "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" and possibly on all four sides.
                I have prepared a sound clip comparing the clarinet solo in "Camp Meeting
                Blues" with a clip from a known Bailey side - "Squeeze Me" � one of the solo
                sides he recorded for Banner in May 1925. Allowing for the gap of 19 months,
                and the different studios, these sound like they could very well be the work
                of the same man (at least to my ears). The vibrato (the best sonic
                fingerprint in my view) is all but identical. Of course, early Bailey
                clarinet is quite different from the later, thinner toned (and flashier)
                solos he recorded with Henderson. Part of the reason for the difference in
                tone between early and later Bailey is, I think, that the earlier Bailey was
                playing an Albert system clarinet, which of course produces a "woodier"
                sound.



                If anyone would like an mp3 of this sound comparison file, please email me
                and I will send it to them.





                Nick






                On 30 August 2011 08:28, ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                > Hi Folks,
                > I have to agree that there are
                > a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver's CJB
                > in 1923/24 but we can't be certain that he replaced Dodds on a full time
                > basis. It would appear that Dodds didn't enjoy exactly robust health at the
                > time and
                > this may equate to the reason why he didn't appear on the Columbia sides.
                > There is a gap between October 1923 & October 1924 and I will make a
                > suggestion (and it can be no more than that) that Dodds
                > was suffering from some kind of viral illness which affected his ability
                > to perform his work and this kept him out work for about a year.
                > Tuberculosis or rheumatic fever are possibilities but it could have
                > been something else which required a lengthy period of convalescence. He
                > did some work in late 1924
                > with Tommy Ladnier as accompanist to the singing duo Ford & Ford and also
                > with Edmonia Henderson which is followed by a gap until November 1925 when
                > he joined Armstrong's Hot Five whose first session was as accompanists to
                > Hociel Thomas. It would seem likely that it was due to Louis Armstrong that
                > he did the work with Tommy Ladnier in 1924 and then, when Louis got the
                > contract for the Hot Five & Seven sides, he got Dodds in, perhaps partly out
                > of friendship, but certainly because of his musicianship. From then on Dodds
                > recorded prolifically until late 1928 when he disappears from the recording
                > scene for about ten years. Even so, he was not idle during this period as he
                > was working consistently in clubs and bars in Chicago throughout the
                > 'thirties and even if the work was probably not particularly lucrative, it
                > would at least have been regular. It also says a lot about Louis and the way
                > he looked after his friends and this is typified by
                > reports that he reputedly paid Honore Dutrey's hospital bills in 1934/5.
                > TTFN - 007
                >
                > --- On Mon,
                > 29/8/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: David Brown
                > <johnhaleysims@...>
                > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 14:56
                >
                >
                > Hi Michael
                >
                > Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
                > October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
                > wherever was he ? -- in October 1923.
                >
                > Dave
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nick Dellow
                Correction ! - the recording dates in King Joe Oliver (Allen and Rust) are given as 15th for Chattanooga Stomp and London (Cafe) Blues , and 16th for
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
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                  Correction ! - the recording dates in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust)
                  are given as 15th for "Chattanooga Stomp" and "London (Cafe) Blues", and
                  16th for "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp". According to the
                  notes, the dates come from the Columbia files. Which still begs the question
                  - why was "London Blues" subsequently shifted to the 16th?


                  Nick

                  On 30 August 2011 11:48, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...> wrote:

                  > Charles Delaunay gives the recording date as "15/16 October 1923" in his
                  > discography, but it isn't clear from this if he means 15th AND 16th or 15th
                  > OR 16th. The Archeophone CD set states "circa" for both 15th and 16th, with
                  > "Chattanooga Stomp" on the 15th and "London (Cafe) Blues", "Camp Meeting
                  > Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. This is also the case in the
                  > revised 'King Joe Oliver' by Laurie Wright, as well as the latest edition of
                  > Jazz Records (6th Edition).
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > However, in the original edition of "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) the
                  > date given for all the sides is October 15th. Crucially, in the notes for
                  > this session there appears the following comment: "Recording date and
                  > rejected takes are from Columbia files". If this is the case, then why the
                  > change to 15th and 16th in Jazz Records?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > In the first and second editions of Jazz Records both "Chattanooga Stomp"
                  > and "London (Cafe) Blues" are stated to have been recorded on the 15th with
                  > "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. Only by the third
                  > edition is "Chattanooga" on the 15th with the other three on the 16th.
                  > Nowhere does Brian Rust apply "circa", which I really think he should have
                  > done, as there was (and still is!) obviously a lack of consensus!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Just to complicate matters, the first and second editions of Jazz Records
                  > gives Buster Bailey as being on all four of the Columbias, the third to
                  > fifth editions have "Buster Bailey or Jimmie Noone" for all four Columbias,
                  > and the sixth edition has Jimmie Noone on "Chattanooga" only with Bailey on
                  > the remaining three sides. In the original edition of "Joe King Oliver",
                  > there is no mention of Buster Bailey for the Columbia session; Jimmie Noone
                  > is assigned to all the Columbia sides.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Incidentally, the differences in tone and balance between the first
                  > Columbia side ("Chattanooga") and the others does not necessarily mean that
                  > they must have been recorded on different days. There could have been
                  > a break on the same day while adjustments to the recording equipment and
                  > studio settings were made. The fact that no less than seven masters
                  > following "Chattanooga" were rejected ("Junk Man Blues" takes 1 to 3, and
                  > "London Blues" takes 1 to 4) certainly suggests some sort of problem with
                  > the equipment and/or instrument balance.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The notes in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) also state that "Preston
                  > Jackson once said (Down Beat, Nov 1, 1942) that Oliver used Noone and Atkins
                  > on one date, and this is evidently it; the trombone is certainly not Dutrey
                  > so is likely to be Atkins. The clarinet is not Dodds; WR once played this
                  > for Dodds, who said it was not himself. Noone admitted being on one side
                  > (Jazz Information, II:16) and can be identified by ear (Hughes Panassi�, WR,
                  > John D.R. Wheater, Brian A.L. Rust, Walter C. Allen, Charles Delaunay, Dave
                  > Stuart, Gene Williams). Noone is said to have both identified and disclaimed
                  > his presence on hearing these records." If Brian Rust is sure it is Noone
                  > here, then why the change to Buster Bailey for all four Columbias in Jazz
                  > Records?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > According to Rex Harris and Max Jones in Collector's Corner (Melody Maker,
                  > 1947), "It is known that Oliver was angry with Dodds (or some say he used a
                  > different personnel because he was recording for Columbia) and took Jimmy
                  > Noone in his place. He may have used Ed Atkins too, instead of Dutrey."
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > My own view is that Buster Bailey is the clarinettist on "London Blues",
                  > "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" and possibly on all four sides.
                  > I have prepared a sound clip comparing the clarinet solo in "Camp Meeting
                  > Blues" with a clip from a known Bailey side - "Squeeze Me" � one of the solo
                  > sides he recorded for Banner in May 1925. Allowing for the gap of 19 months,
                  > and the different studios, these sound like they could very well be the work
                  > of the same man (at least to my ears). The vibrato (the best sonic
                  > fingerprint in my view) is all but identical. Of course, early Bailey
                  > clarinet is quite different from the later, thinner toned (and flashier)
                  > solos he recorded with Henderson. Part of the reason for the difference in
                  > tone between early and later Bailey is, I think, that the earlier Bailey was
                  > playing an Albert system clarinet, which of course produces a "woodier"
                  > sound.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > If anyone would like an mp3 of this sound comparison file, please email me
                  > and I will send it to them.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Nick
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On 30 August 2011 08:28, ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >> **
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Hi Folks,
                  >> I have to agree that there are
                  >> a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver's CJB
                  >> in 1923/24 but we can't be certain that he replaced Dodds on a full time
                  >> basis. It would appear that Dodds didn't enjoy exactly robust health at the
                  >> time and
                  >> this may equate to the reason why he didn't appear on the Columbia sides.
                  >> There is a gap between October 1923 & October 1924 and I will make a
                  >> suggestion (and it can be no more than that) that Dodds
                  >> was suffering from some kind of viral illness which affected his ability
                  >> to perform his work and this kept him out work for about a year.
                  >> Tuberculosis or rheumatic fever are possibilities but it could have
                  >> been something else which required a lengthy period of convalescence. He
                  >> did some work in late 1924
                  >> with Tommy Ladnier as accompanist to the singing duo Ford & Ford and also
                  >> with Edmonia Henderson which is followed by a gap until November 1925 when
                  >> he joined Armstrong's Hot Five whose first session was as accompanists to
                  >> Hociel Thomas. It would seem likely that it was due to Louis Armstrong that
                  >> he did the work with Tommy Ladnier in 1924 and then, when Louis got the
                  >> contract for the Hot Five & Seven sides, he got Dodds in, perhaps partly out
                  >> of friendship, but certainly because of his musicianship. From then on Dodds
                  >> recorded prolifically until late 1928 when he disappears from the recording
                  >> scene for about ten years. Even so, he was not idle during this period as he
                  >> was working consistently in clubs and bars in Chicago throughout the
                  >> 'thirties and even if the work was probably not particularly lucrative, it
                  >> would at least have been regular. It also says a lot about Louis and the way
                  >> he looked after his friends and this is typified by
                  >> reports that he reputedly paid Honore Dutrey's hospital bills in 1934/5.
                  >> TTFN - 007
                  >>
                  >> --- On Mon,
                  >> 29/8/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> From: David Brown
                  >> <johnhaleysims@...>
                  >> Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                  >> To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 14:56
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Hi Michael
                  >>
                  >> Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
                  >> October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
                  >> wherever was he ? -- in October 1923.
                  >>
                  >> Dave
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • ALAN BOND
                  Hi Folks,                I believe that at one point Buster Bailey used a metal clarinet and at times with the John Kirby band he used an Albert
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Folks,
                                   I believe that at one point Buster Bailey used a metal clarinet and at times with the John Kirby band he used an Albert system instrument. Whether we can be sure he used the former on any recordings at all would be a matter for much conjecture but there are occasions among the John Kirby recordings where he appears to be using different instruments.
                    TTFN - 007

                    --- On Tue, 30/8/11, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...> wrote:

                    From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...>
                    Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                    To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 12:00

                    Correction !  -  the recording dates in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust)
                    are given as 15th for "Chattanooga Stomp" and "London (Cafe) Blues", and
                    16th for "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp". According to the
                    notes, the dates come from the Columbia files. Which still begs the question
                    - why was "London Blues" subsequently shifted to the 16th?


                    Nick

                    On 30 August 2011 11:48, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...> wrote:

                    > Charles Delaunay gives the recording date as "15/16 October 1923" in his
                    > discography, but it isn't clear from this if he means 15th AND 16th or 15th
                    > OR 16th. The Archeophone CD set states "circa" for both 15th and 16th, with
                    > "Chattanooga Stomp" on the 15th and "London (Cafe) Blues", "Camp Meeting
                    > Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. This is also the case in the
                    > revised 'King Joe Oliver' by Laurie Wright, as well as the latest edition of
                    > Jazz Records (6th Edition).
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > However, in the original edition of "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) the
                    > date given for all the sides is October 15th. Crucially, in the notes for
                    > this session there appears the following comment: "Recording date and
                    > rejected takes are from Columbia files". If this is the case, then why the
                    > change to 15th and 16th in Jazz Records?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In the first and second editions of Jazz Records both "Chattanooga Stomp"
                    > and "London (Cafe) Blues" are stated to have been recorded on the 15th with
                    > "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. Only by the third
                    > edition is "Chattanooga" on the 15th with the other three on the 16th.
                    > Nowhere does Brian Rust apply "circa", which I really think he should have
                    > done, as there was (and still is!) obviously a lack of consensus!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Just to complicate matters, the first and second editions of Jazz Records
                    > gives Buster Bailey as being on all four of the Columbias, the third to
                    > fifth editions have "Buster Bailey or Jimmie Noone" for all four Columbias,
                    > and the sixth edition has Jimmie Noone on "Chattanooga" only with Bailey on
                    > the remaining three sides. In the original edition of "Joe King Oliver",
                    > there is no mention of Buster Bailey for the Columbia session; Jimmie Noone
                    > is assigned to all the Columbia sides.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Incidentally, the differences in tone and balance between the first
                    > Columbia side ("Chattanooga") and the others does not necessarily mean that
                    > they must have been recorded on different days. There could have been
                    > a break on the same day while adjustments to the recording equipment and
                    > studio settings were made. The fact that no less than seven masters
                    > following "Chattanooga" were rejected ("Junk Man Blues" takes 1 to 3, and
                    > "London Blues" takes 1 to 4) certainly suggests some sort of problem with
                    > the equipment and/or instrument balance.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The notes in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) also state that "Preston
                    > Jackson once said (Down Beat, Nov 1, 1942) that Oliver used Noone and Atkins
                    > on one date, and this is evidently it; the trombone is certainly not Dutrey
                    > so is likely to be Atkins. The clarinet is not Dodds; WR once played this
                    > for Dodds, who said it was not himself. Noone admitted being on one side
                    > (Jazz Information, II:16) and can be identified by ear (Hughes Panassié, WR,
                    > John D.R. Wheater, Brian A.L. Rust, Walter C. Allen, Charles Delaunay, Dave
                    > Stuart, Gene Williams). Noone is said to have both identified and disclaimed
                    > his presence on hearing these records." If Brian Rust is sure it is Noone
                    > here, then why the change to Buster Bailey for all four Columbias in Jazz
                    > Records?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > According to Rex Harris and Max Jones in Collector's Corner (Melody Maker,
                    > 1947), "It is known that Oliver was angry with Dodds (or some say he used a
                    > different personnel because he was recording for Columbia) and took Jimmy
                    > Noone in his place. He may have used Ed Atkins too, instead of Dutrey."
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > My own view is that Buster Bailey is the clarinettist on "London Blues",
                    > "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" and possibly on all four sides.
                    > I have prepared a sound clip comparing the clarinet solo in "Camp Meeting
                    > Blues" with a clip from a known Bailey side - "Squeeze Me" – one of the solo
                    > sides he recorded for Banner in May 1925. Allowing for the gap of 19 months,
                    > and the different studios, these sound like they could very well be the work
                    > of the same man (at least to my ears). The vibrato (the best sonic
                    > fingerprint in my view) is all but identical. Of course, early Bailey
                    > clarinet is quite different from the later, thinner toned (and flashier)
                    > solos he recorded with Henderson. Part of the reason for the difference in
                    > tone between early and later Bailey is, I think, that the earlier Bailey was
                    > playing an Albert system clarinet, which of course produces a "woodier"
                    > sound.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > If anyone would like an mp3 of this sound comparison file, please email me
                    > and I will send it to them.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Nick
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On 30 August 2011 08:28, ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> **
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Hi Folks,
                    >>               I have to agree that there are
                    >> a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver's CJB
                    >> in 1923/24 but we can't be certain that he replaced Dodds on a full time
                    >> basis. It would appear that Dodds didn't enjoy exactly robust health at the
                    >> time and
                    >> this may equate to the reason why he didn't appear on the Columbia sides.
                    >> There is a gap between October 1923 & October 1924 and I will make a
                    >> suggestion (and it can be no more than that) that Dodds
                    >> was suffering from some kind of viral illness which affected his ability
                    >> to perform his work and this kept him out work for about a year.
                    >> Tuberculosis or  rheumatic fever are possibilities but it could have
                    >> been something else which required a lengthy period of convalescence. He
                    >> did some work in late 1924
                    >> with Tommy Ladnier as accompanist to the singing duo Ford & Ford and also
                    >> with Edmonia Henderson which is followed by a gap until November 1925 when
                    >> he joined Armstrong's Hot Five whose first session was as accompanists to
                    >> Hociel Thomas. It would seem likely that it was due to Louis Armstrong that
                    >> he did the work with Tommy Ladnier in 1924 and then, when Louis got the
                    >> contract for the Hot Five & Seven sides, he got Dodds in, perhaps partly out
                    >> of friendship, but certainly because of his musicianship. From then on Dodds
                    >> recorded prolifically until late 1928 when he disappears from the recording
                    >> scene for about ten years. Even so, he was not idle during this period as he
                    >> was working consistently in clubs and bars in Chicago throughout the
                    >> 'thirties and even if the work was probably not particularly lucrative, it
                    >> would at least have been regular. It also says a lot about Louis and the way
                    >> he looked after his friends and this is typified by
                    >> reports that he reputedly paid Honore Dutrey's hospital bills in 1934/5.
                    >> TTFN - 007
                    >>
                    >> --- On Mon,
                    >> 29/8/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> From: David Brown
                    >> <johnhaleysims@...>
                    >> Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                    >> To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 14:56
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Hi Michael
                    >>
                    >> Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
                    >> October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
                    >> wherever was he  ?  -- in October 1923.
                    >>
                    >> Dave
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >> ------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >> ------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >> 
                    >>
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    ------------------------------------

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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • silverleafjb
                    snip What I previously observed was that the unmistakable sweet sound -- tone -- ... I m going out on a limb here, but it is within the realm of possibility
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
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                      snip> What I previously observed was that the unmistakable sweet sound -- tone --
                      > of Noone is absent from the last three Columbia sides which were apparently
                      > recorded on the day after the first side. And does anybody know the evidence
                      > for this ? The acoustic and balance for these sides -- and the tone of the
                      > clarinet -- certainly sound different.
                      >

                      I'm going out on a limb here, but it is within the realm of possibility that Noone may have felt obligated to alter his sweet sound in favor of the more rugged sound of the Oliver band. I think there were two sides to Noone and his playing became sweeter the older he got.

                      Cheers,
                      Chris
                    • silverleafjb
                      ALAN BOND wrote: snip I would, however, disagree with the conclusions regarding Buster Bailey. His technical ability was far in advance of
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
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                        ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:
                        snip> I would, however, disagree with the conclusions regarding Buster Bailey. His technical ability was far in advance of Noone's, as his work with Fletcher Henderson and John Kirby testifies.

                        Not to be contentious, Alan, but you are referring to Bailey ten years later, in the context of Kirby and Henderson. And my original comment was:

                        "Bailey was a capable clarinetist but he just didn't have the FEELING that Noone did."

                        IMO Noone played with a much better "jazz" feel (for lack of a better term for it) than Bailey. Yes, Bailey had prodigious technique, but to me, I've never been able to stand the tone he got on the instrument. I'd rather hear a clarinetist with a nice tone and limited technique than someone with lots of technique. My feeling is technique is only a means to an end, not the end itself, and that goes for anyone playing any instrument.

                        He did play metal clarinet but I don't think he ever played Albert. At least I've never seen a photo of him with an Albert.

                        I also believe Noone took lessons from Franz Schoepp.

                        Cheers,
                        Chris
                      • David Brown
                        Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history. You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for -- the
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
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                          Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history.

                          You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for --
                          the continual discographical amendments ?

                          Perhaps somebody with Storyvilles -- and an index -- could check for this
                          topic.

                          What this proves is that the clarinet on the Columbias has always been
                          contentious and it is not so easy to pick and open to alternative aural
                          interpretation. I myself have heard it both -- if not all -- ways over the
                          years.

                          The 7 rejected takes might also suggest a problem with the musicians rather
                          than the equipment. Certainly Noone on 'Chattanooga' sounds less than his
                          fluent best and the playing on the other three sides is stronger. I can't
                          think there was any temperamental or musical clash between Oliver and Noone
                          and maybe the latter was 'under the weather' and, for reasons of safety, an
                          alternative was found for the next day's session.

                          As to Buster, he was a better jazz player earlier, when his models were New
                          Orleanian, and before his studies with Schoepp which I consider the reason
                          for his drastic change is style. But I also note that Noone studied with
                          Schoepp.

                          The tenuous and circumstantial documentary evidence would seem to come down
                          for the Columbias having both Noone and Buster.

                          Aurally, you pays your money and takes your choice but I believe, without
                          doubt, that Noone is on 'Chattanooga'.


                          Dave





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • ALAN BOND
                          Hi Folks,                 That sounds like a reasonable theory to me and I don t think we are going to get any closer unless new information
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Folks,
                                            That sounds like a reasonable theory to me and I don't think we are going to get any closer unless new information surfaces.
                                            I am afraid I can't agree that Buster Bailey was a better jazz player in 1923 than he was in, say, 1940. His work with John Kirby alone is proof of that. It's very like saying that Ian Wheeler was a better player when he was with Ken Colyer than when he was with Chris Barber. Musicians develop their skills over time just like anyone else who takes an interest in their craft and they are also subject to other musical influences.

                            TTFN - 007

                            --- On Thu, 1/9/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrotIe:

                            From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                            Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                            To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 9:52

                            Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history.

                            You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for --
                            the continual discographical amendments ?

                            Perhaps somebody with Storyvilles -- and an index -- could check for this
                            topic.

                            What this proves is that the clarinet on the Columbias has always been
                            contentious and it is not so easy to pick and open to alternative aural
                            interpretation. I myself have heard it both -- if not all -- ways over the
                            years.

                            The 7 rejected takes might also suggest a problem with the musicians rather
                            than the equipment. Certainly Noone on 'Chattanooga' sounds less than his
                            fluent best and the playing on the other three sides is stronger. I can't
                            think there was any temperamental or musical clash between Oliver and Noone
                            and maybe the latter was 'under the weather' and, for reasons of safety, an
                            alternative was found for the next day's session.

                            As to Buster, he was a better jazz player earlier, when his models were New
                            Orleanian, and before his studies with Schoepp which I  consider the reason
                            for his drastic change is style. But I also note that Noone studied with
                            Schoepp.

                            The tenuous and circumstantial documentary evidence would seem to come down
                            for the Columbias having both Noone and Buster.

                            Aurally, you pays your money and takes your choice but I believe, without
                            doubt, that Noone is on 'Chattanooga'.


                            Dave





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            ------------------------------------

                            ------------------------------------

                            Yahoo! Groups Links





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Howard Rye
                            This is a disagreement caused merely by failure to define terms. Bailey was unquestionably technically superior in 1940 but does this make him a better jazz
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              This is a disagreement caused merely by failure to define terms. Bailey was
                              unquestionably technically superior in 1940 but does this make him a better
                              jazz player? Many commentators, especially those oriented towards
                              traditional jazz, have thought otherwise.

                              John Chilton¹s ³Deficient in the emotional directness expected of the
                              greatest jazz musicians¹ (Grove) is at least a sustainable comment, but not
                              in respect of his earliest recordings. It¹s clear to me that he chose to
                              play in a more detached style with Kirby and on other later associations.
                              Some of his blues accompaniments show that it was a choice and that he could
                              still achieve a different balance between emotion and technique when he
                              wanted.


                              on 01/09/2011 12:06, ALAN BOND at alan_bond@... wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi Folks,
                              >                 That sounds like a reasonable theory to me and I don't think
                              > we are going to get any closer unless new information surfaces.
                              >                 I am afraid I can't agree that Buster Bailey was a better jazz
                              > player in 1923 than he was in, say, 1940. His work with John Kirby alone is
                              > proof of that. It's very like saying that Ian Wheeler was a better player when
                              > he was with Ken Colyer than when he was with Chris Barber. Musicians develop
                              > their skills over time just like anyone else who takes an interest in their
                              > craft and they are also subject to other musical influences.
                              >
                              > TTFN - 007
                              >
                              > --- On Thu, 1/9/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...
                              > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> > wrotIe:
                              >
                              > From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...
                              > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> >
                              > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                              > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 9:52
                              >
                              > Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history.
                              >
                              > You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for --
                              > the continual discographical amendments ?
                              >
                              > Perhaps somebody with Storyvilles -- and an index -- could check for this
                              > topic.
                              >
                              > What this proves is that the clarinet on the Columbias has always been
                              > contentious and it is not so easy to pick and open to alternative aural
                              > interpretation. I myself have heard it both -- if not all -- ways over the
                              > years.
                              >
                              > The 7 rejected takes might also suggest a problem with the musicians rather
                              > than the equipment. Certainly Noone on 'Chattanooga' sounds less than his
                              > fluent best and the playing on the other three sides is stronger. I can't
                              > think there was any temperamental or musical clash between Oliver and Noone
                              > and maybe the latter was 'under the weather' and, for reasons of safety, an
                              > alternative was found for the next day's session.
                              >
                              > As to Buster, he was a better jazz player earlier, when his models were New
                              > Orleanian, and before his studies with Schoepp which I  consider the reason
                              > for his drastic change is style. But I also note that Noone studied with
                              > Schoepp.
                              >
                              > The tenuous and circumstantial documentary evidence would seem to come down
                              > for the Columbias having both Noone and Buster.
                              >
                              > Aurally, you pays your money and takes your choice but I believe, without
                              > doubt, that Noone is on 'Chattanooga'.
                              >
                              > Dave
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                              howard@...
                              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • ALAN BOND
                              Hi Folks,               Answer - YES TTFN - 007 ... From: Howard Rye Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
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                                Hi Folks,
                                              Answer - YES
                                TTFN - 007

                                --- On Thu, 1/9/11, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:

                                From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                                Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                                To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 12:19

                                This is a disagreement caused merely by failure to define terms. Bailey was
                                unquestionably technically superior in 1940 but does this make him a better
                                jazz player? Many commentators, especially those oriented towards
                                traditional jazz, have thought otherwise.

                                John Chilton¹s ³Deficient in the emotional directness expected of the
                                greatest jazz musicians¹ (Grove) is at least a sustainable comment, but not
                                in respect of his earliest recordings. It¹s clear to me that he chose to
                                play in a more detached style with Kirby and on other later associations.
                                Some of his blues accompaniments show that it was a choice and that he could
                                still achieve a different balance between emotion and technique when he
                                wanted.


                                on 01/09/2011 12:06, ALAN BOND at alan_bond@... wrote:




                                >   
                                >
                                > Hi Folks,
                                >                 That sounds like a reasonable theory to me and I don't think
                                > we are going to get any closer unless new information surfaces.
                                >                 I am afraid I can't agree that Buster Bailey was a better jazz
                                > player in 1923 than he was in, say, 1940. His work with John Kirby alone is
                                > proof of that. It's very like saying that Ian Wheeler was a better player when
                                > he was with Ken Colyer than when he was with Chris Barber. Musicians develop
                                > their skills over time just like anyone else who takes an interest in their
                                > craft and they are also subject to other musical influences.
                                >
                                > TTFN - 007
                                >
                                > --- On Thu, 1/9/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...
                                > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> > wrotIe:
                                >
                                > From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...
                                > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> >
                                > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                                > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 9:52
                                >
                                > Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history.
                                >
                                > You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for --
                                > the continual discographical amendments ?
                                >
                                > Perhaps somebody with Storyvilles -- and an index -- could check for this
                                > topic.
                                >
                                > What this proves is that the clarinet on the Columbias has always been
                                > contentious and it is not so easy to pick and open to alternative aural
                                > interpretation. I myself have heard it both -- if not all -- ways over the
                                > years.
                                >
                                > The 7 rejected takes might also suggest a problem with the musicians rather
                                > than the equipment. Certainly Noone on 'Chattanooga' sounds less than his
                                > fluent best and the playing on the other three sides is stronger. I can't
                                > think there was any temperamental or musical clash between Oliver and Noone
                                > and maybe the latter was 'under the weather' and, for reasons of safety, an
                                > alternative was found for the next day's session.
                                >
                                > As to Buster, he was a better jazz player earlier, when his models were New
                                > Orleanian, and before his studies with Schoepp which I  consider the reason
                                > for his drastic change is style. But I also note that Noone studied with
                                > Schoepp.
                                >
                                > The tenuous and circumstantial documentary evidence would seem to come down
                                > for the Columbias having both Noone and Buster.
                                >
                                > Aurally, you pays your money and takes your choice but I believe, without
                                > doubt, that Noone is on 'Chattanooga'.
                                >
                                > Dave
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >

                                >   
                                >
                                >

                                   
                                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                howard@...
                                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • David Brown
                                Right Howard There are indeed a few late examples of Buster playing a good blues but his normal blues mode was rather too glib. However, this style totally
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
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                                  Right Howard

                                  There are indeed a few late examples of Buster playing a good blues but his
                                  normal blues mode was rather too glib. However, this style totally suited
                                  the 'tight arsed' Kirby band of which he was the best part.

                                  I can't remember source but Buster was extremely jealous of Goodman,
                                  considering himself the better player and this was the reason for the rather
                                  dreadful 'Man With A Horn Goes Berserk' in which he displays his speed at
                                  the sacrifice of music and any semblance of jazz tone or even decent
                                  classical tone.

                                  Goodman reported playing duets with Buster for Schoepp but I doubt if
                                  either, or Noone, had their jazz playing enhanced. Noone also became rather
                                  glib although even late could play a sublime blues.

                                  Goodman's jazz was even more damaged by his studies with Kell and I posit
                                  that 'proper' classical technique is really inimical to jazz and certainly
                                  jazz tone, whatever that is.

                                  I also conjecture that the riches that we have within our 'red hot' period
                                  are due, in no small part, to the fact that the musicians were self, or
                                  badly, taught and often had 'faulty' technique.


                                  Dave


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • ALAN BOND
                                  Hi Folks,               If you want blues feeling from a clarinet player look no further than Russell Procope or Barney Bigard. The former is on
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Folks,
                                                  If you want blues feeling from a clarinet player look no further than Russell Procope or Barney Bigard. The former is on Jelly Roll Morton's 'Deep Creek' and his short clarinet passage there has more blues feeling than I would have credited to any man. Bigard, of course, spent all those years with Duke Ellington and his chair was latterly taken by Russell Procope who added another value to the rich tapestry of the Ellington band. Neither of them were 'flashy' technical players either and both paid homage to Buster Bailey at one time or another.
                                    TTFN - 007

                                    --- On Thu, 1/9/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:

                                    From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                                    Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                                    To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 15:46

                                    Right Howard

                                    There are indeed a few late examples of Buster playing a good blues but his
                                    normal blues mode was rather too glib. However, this style totally suited
                                    the 'tight arsed' Kirby band of which he was the best part.

                                    I can't remember source but Buster was extremely jealous of Goodman,
                                    considering himself the better player and this was the reason for the rather
                                    dreadful 'Man With A Horn Goes Berserk' in which he displays his speed at
                                    the sacrifice of music and any semblance of jazz tone or even decent
                                    classical tone.

                                    Goodman reported playing duets with Buster for Schoepp but I doubt if
                                    either, or Noone, had their jazz playing enhanced. Noone also became rather
                                    glib although even late could play a sublime blues.

                                    Goodman's jazz was even more damaged by his studies with Kell and I posit
                                    that 'proper' classical technique is really inimical to jazz and certainly
                                    jazz tone, whatever that is.

                                    I also conjecture that the riches that we have within our 'red hot' period
                                    are due, in no small part, to the fact that the musicians were self, or
                                    badly, taught and often had 'faulty' technique.


                                    Dave


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                    ------------------------------------

                                    ------------------------------------

                                    Yahoo! Groups Links





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • David Brown
                                    Alan If it is Procope on Deep Creek I think the clarinet solo was written out by Morton because it is far more convincing blues than anything else he ever
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
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                                      Alan

                                      If it is Procope on 'Deep Creek' I think the clarinet solo was written out
                                      by Morton because it is far more convincing blues than anything else he ever
                                      played. I feel that with Ellington he offered pastiche of N.O. clarinet.


                                      Dave


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • David Brown
                                      An essay by Richard Rains on this subject appears in the latest VJM magazine. Mr Rains comes down for Noone throughout although fails to offer any new
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Sep 29, 2011
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                                        An essay by Richard Rains on this subject appears in the latest VJM
                                        magazine.

                                        Mr Rains comes down for Noone throughout although fails to offer any new
                                        evidence.

                                        On the contrary, he specifies the claim by Buster to Arnold Klein that he
                                        played on one Columbia date and, at one time, had test pressings.

                                        For us to discount this, as does Mr Rains, we must believe that either Klein
                                        or Buster were lying -- elaborately.

                                        However, we are left with the lack of documentary evidence for the Columbias
                                        being split over two consecutive days although Rust claimed this was from
                                        Columbia files. Do we also believe he was lying ?

                                        This issue must finally be decided aurally and that is subjective. There is
                                        near contemporary aural evidence of Buster which shows playing consistent in
                                        style with, and certainly not anomalous to, the last three Columbias. There
                                        is also aural evidence that the acoustic and balance of the last three sides
                                        is different from 'Chattanooga'. It is possible, as Mr Rains, to construct a
                                        scenario wherein the balance was altered during a single session but that
                                        the latter three sides were made at a later session is more probable because
                                        there were, after all, no playback possibilities in acoustic days.

                                        Also difficult to ignore Noone's own confirmation and denial of his presence
                                        when played these sides.


                                        Dave








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                                      • Howard Rye
                                        ... I have also seen these file cards and Brian is certainly not lying, but there is room for alternative interpretations. What follows only summarizes the
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Sep 30, 2011
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                                          on 29/09/2011 14:32, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                                          >
                                          >
                                          > However, we are left with the lack of documentary evidence for the Columbias
                                          > being split over two consecutive days although Rust claimed this was from
                                          > Columbia files. Do we also believe he was lying ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          I have also seen these file cards and Brian is certainly not lying, but
                                          there is room for alternative interpretations.

                                          What follows only summarizes the conclusions set out by Laurie Wright in
                                          King Joe Oliver (pages 31-2), but the surviving filing from this era does
                                          not show recording dates. The source of the recording dates shown by earlier
                                          writers including the original Allen/Rust book is simply no longer known.
                                          However, this was published before Rust had had access to the files. Thew
                                          dates are claimed to be from the Columbia files and appear already in
                                          Delaunay, but were not known to Index to Jazz.

                                          All that can be said is that they can no longer be verified.

                                          The surviving file cards show only shipping dates. This date is 20 October
                                          1923 for 81300, 81301 (unissued) and 81302 takes-1-2-3 (unissued). For 81302
                                          takes 4-5, 81303, and 81304 the shipping date is 23 October 1923. There can
                                          be no doubt that, as Laurie Wright reports, the file card for 81302 has been
                                          reinserted in the typewriter to add the two additional takes, so this is not
                                          merely a techinical matter.

                                          Laurie of course believed that two clarinettists were involved and that one
                                          of them is heard only on 81300. It will be evident that anyone who wants to
                                          say this is a circular argument cannot be disproved with the data now
                                          available.

                                          I have not bothered to intervene before because clearly those who wish to
                                          discuss this have already rejected the conclusions in King Joe Oliver on the
                                          basis of rejecting the interpretation of the facts there given. They have no
                                          new facts to offer. Richard Rains hears what he wants to hear and is
                                          perfectly entitled to do so. He is perfectly entitled also to argue that
                                          Laurie Wright was doing the same. For my part I shall continue to regard
                                          Laurie¹s interpretation as definitive in the absence of any new evidence. I
                                          also, if I am honest, regard this continual speculative reworking of
                                          familiar ground as a waste of time when there is so much real research which
                                          could be being done.

                                          But to get back to the point. No Brian was not lying. I also guess Charles
                                          Delaunay had seen filing at Columbia that no longer existed by the 1970s.

                                          Incidentally in 1961 Columbia still had masters of at least one take of
                                          81300/03/04, not that it does us any good, and that was fifty years worth of
                                          new brooms ago at that.
                                          >


                                          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                          howard@...
                                          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




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                                        • David Brown
                                          Many thanks to Howard for the totally authoritative discographical overview. My question as to whether Rust was lying was rhetorical and I hope I implied that
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Oct 4, 2011
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                                            Many thanks to Howard for the totally authoritative discographical overview.

                                            My question as to whether Rust was lying was rhetorical and I hope I implied
                                            that I did not believe the conspiracy theory involving Rust, Buster and/or
                                            Klein and did not reject Laurie's opinion and research, which documentary
                                            evidence from files and Buster, and even Noone, supports.

                                            Although new documentary evidence is unlikely to appear, I do think such
                                            chestnuts can usefully be revisited in the light of new technology. The
                                            latest transcriptions offer detail that could never have been imagined in
                                            the days of the discographical pioneers. It is possible now to slow and
                                            speed and superimpose and compare extracts and even sound waves.

                                            But, in end, even aural evidence of this refined definition is subjective.

                                            Dave


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