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Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues

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  • silverleafjb
    The discussion of who plays clarinet on this, and the other Oliver Columbia s, can be simply solved by listening to the run played at 2:17 on Camp Meeting, and
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 28, 2011
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      The discussion of who plays clarinet on this, and the other Oliver Columbia's, can be simply solved by listening to the run played at 2:17 on Camp Meeting, and the run at 2:40 on Noone's recording of Blues My Naughty Sweetie.

      I'm sure with diligent listening to the Oliver's and Noone's recordings one could find many more similarities.

      I'm just listening to London Cafe Blues right now, and how anyone can believe that's not Noone is beyond me. (Again, the run at 1:51 is a typical Noone-ism.) Bailey was a capable clarinetist but he just didn't have the feeling that Noone did. Also, Noone was a member of Oliver's band during his early days in Chicago. If Dodds wasn't available to record, it seems sensible that Joe would have called a) a New Orleans musician, and b) an old friend - rather than Bailey.

      Cheers,
      Chris Tyle
    • ALAN BOND
      Hi Folks,                I am very much inclined to agree with this conclusion and and at least eight leading authorities have identified the
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 28, 2011
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        Hi Folks,
                       I am very much inclined to agree with this conclusion and and at least eight leading authorities have identified the clarinet player on this Oliver session as Jimmie Noone. However, Buster Bailey was the regular clarinet player with the Oliver band at this time so just why he was not available for this session is a mystery.

                         I would, however, disagree with the conclusions regarding Buster Bailey. His technical ability was far in advance of Noone's, as his work with Fletcher Henderson and John Kirby testifies. He was the first person to perfect the technique
        known as 'circular breathing and an example of this can be found on John Kirby's 'St Louis Blues' of 1941, where he holds a continuous single note for 48 bars behind the rideout riffs of Charlie Shavers and Russell Procope. A superb example of his fluent ability is also evident on Fletcher Henderson's 'Wild Party' of 1934, where Bailey weaves a mercurial silver thread through the ensemble throughout the last 32 bars. It is clearly no coincidence that Buster Bailey and Benny Goodman had the same clarinet teacher in Franz Schoepp. Among clarinet players, I would consider him to be the equal of Benny Goodman and he ranks alongside two others who are, sadly, very much underestimated. I refer to Joe Dixon (r/n Guiseppe Ischia) and Johnny Mintz/Mince (r/n Muenzenberger), both of whom were utterly superb, fluid players. There is an excellent axample of Joe Dixon's work on Bunny Berigan's version of 'The Prisoner's Song' on Victor/Bluebird but there are plenty
        of other sides where he gets to show off his talent. Both he and Johnny
        Mintz had long and distinguished musical careers as a session musicians. Both men deserve much greater recognition than they have had and I recommend their work as worthy of the highest praise. I can also, only express regret that Benny Goodman and Buster Bailey never recorded together - now that would have been spectacular !
        TTFN - 007

        --- On Sun, 28/8/11, silverleafjb <silverleafjb@...> wrote:

        From: silverleafjb <silverleafjb@...>
        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting
        Blues
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, 28 August, 2011, 19:20

        The discussion of who plays clarinet on this, and the other Oliver Columbia's, can be simply solved by listening to the run played at 2:17 on Camp Meeting, and the run at 2:40 on Noone's recording of Blues My Naughty Sweetie.

        I'm sure with diligent listening to the Oliver's and Noone's recordings one could find many more similarities.

        I'm just listening to London Cafe Blues right now, and how anyone can believe that's not Noone is beyond me. (Again, the run at 1:51 is a typical Noone-ism.) Bailey was a capable clarinetist but he just didn't have the feeling that Noone did. Also, Noone was a member of Oliver's band during his early days in Chicago. If Dodds wasn't available to record, it seems sensible that Joe would have called a) a New Orleans musician, and b) an old friend - rather than Bailey.


        Cheers,
        Chris
        Tyle



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • fearfeasa
        No, Alan - Bailey was never the regular clarinet player with the OliverBand. It was Johnny Dodd(s) at this time. Chris Tyle is quite right about the Noone i/d
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 28, 2011
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          No, Alan - Bailey was never the regular clarinet player with the
          OliverBand. It was Johnny Dodd(s) at this time.

          Chris Tyle is quite right about the Noone i/d on the Columbias. The
          gentleman "jazzologist" who started the Bailey hare all those years ago
          has a lot to answer for !

          J T Dyamond.

          Ar 28/08/11 23:21 :01, scríobh ALAN BOND:
          >
          > Hi Folks,
          > I am very much inclined to agree with this conclusion
          > and and at least eight leading authorities have identified the
          > clarinet player on this Oliver session as Jimmie Noone. However,
          > Buster Bailey was the regular clarinet player with the Oliver band at
          > this time so just why he was not available for this session is a mystery.
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • ALAN BOND
          Hi Folks,               Given some of the evidence subsequent to WCA & BALR s conclusions I would have agreed with you, but the subject cropped up
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 29, 2011
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            Hi Folks,
                          Given some of the evidence subsequent to WCA & BALR's conclusions I would have agreed with you, but the subject cropped up some years ago and the question was put to someone who knew Bailey quite well from his time with Clarence Williams in 1923 and this person stated that they had been told by Buster Bailey that he had worked regularly with the King Oliver Band at around the same time. I am not able to say who it was with any certainty but the conclusion is that it may possibly have been Eva Taylor. It may be that Bailey was not the regular clarinet player in the Oliver band but may have been deputising for Dodds who did not always enjoy the best of health. The other connection was via Armstrong and his early work with Clarence Williams' Blue five in 1923.
                             As regards the latter, Eva Taylor recalled the sessions very well for the pyrotechnic exchanges between Louis and Sidney Bechet, who had a battle royal while attempting to blow one another off the stage (e.g. Cakewalkin' Babies) and this to the extent that poor Charlie Irvis was almost reduced to the level of an onlooker. Great music indeed but tough times for many musicians trying to eke out a living.
            TTFN - 007

            --- On Sun, 28/8/11, fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...> wrote:

            From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
            Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
            To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, 28 August, 2011, 23:32

            No, Alan - Bailey was never the regular clarinet player with the
            OliverBand. It was Johnny Dodd(s) at this time.

            Chris Tyle is quite right about the Noone i/d on the Columbias. The
            gentleman "jazzologist" who started the Bailey hare all those years ago
            has a lot to answer for !

            J T Dyamond.

            Ar 28/08/11 23:21 :01, scríobh ALAN BOND:
            >
            > Hi Folks,
            >                I am very much inclined to agree with this conclusion
            > and and at least eight leading authorities have identified the
            > clarinet player on this Oliver session as Jimmie Noone. However,
            >
            Buster Bailey was the regular clarinet player with the Oliver band at
            > this time so just why he was not available for this session is a mystery.
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

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            Yahoo! Groups Links





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Brown
            Nice to have this one riding again. What I previously observed was that the unmistakable sweet sound -- tone -- of Noone is absent from the last three Columbia
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 29, 2011
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              Nice to have this one riding again.

              What I previously observed was that the unmistakable sweet sound -- tone --
              of Noone is absent from the last three Columbia sides which were apparently
              recorded on the day after the first side. And does anybody know the evidence
              for this ? The acoustic and balance for these sides -- and the tone of the
              clarinet -- certainly sound different.

              Buster was a fine technician and, chameleonlike, could cover various styles.

              There is also a story -- which I cannot at the moment find -- that Buster
              carried around with him a KOCJB record as an example of his own playing.The
              only record which would fit here is the issue of Camp Meeting/London Cafe.

              It is also reported in 'King Joe Oliver' that Noone, enigmatically, both
              confirmed and denied his presence when played these sides. This also speaks
              for his presence on only one side.


              Dave





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael
              Well, there is a photo showing Bailey as a member of King Oliver s Creole Jazz Band in 1924. It is included in the Martin Williams Kings of Jazz Book on King
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 29, 2011
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                Well, there is a photo showing Bailey as a member of King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band in 1924. It is included in the Martin Williams Kings of Jazz Book on King Oliver.

                Michael Rader

                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Folks,
                >               Given some of the evidence subsequent to WCA & BALR's conclusions I would have agreed with you, but the subject cropped up some years ago and the question was put to someone who knew Bailey quite well from his time with Clarence Williams in 1923 and this person stated that they had been told by Buster Bailey that he had worked regularly with the King Oliver Band at around the same time. I am not able to say who it was with any certainty but the conclusion is that it may possibly have been Eva Taylor. It may be that Bailey was not the regular clarinet player in the Oliver band but may have been deputising for Dodds who did not always enjoy the best of health. The other connection was via Armstrong and his early work with Clarence Williams' Blue five in 1923.
                >                  As regards the latter, Eva Taylor recalled the sessions very well for the pyrotechnic exchanges between Louis and Sidney Bechet, who had a battle royal while attempting to blow one another off the stage (e.g. Cakewalkin' Babies) and this to the extent that poor Charlie Irvis was almost reduced to the level of an onlooker. Great music indeed but tough times for many musicians trying to eke out a living.
                > TTFN - 007
                >
                > --- On Sun, 28/8/11, fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: fearfeasa <fearfeasa@...>
                > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Sunday, 28 August, 2011, 23:32
                >
                > No, Alan - Bailey was never the regular clarinet player with the
                > OliverBand. It was Johnny Dodd(s) at this time.
                >
                > Chris Tyle is quite right about the Noone i/d on the Columbias. The
                > gentleman "jazzologist" who started the Bailey hare all those years ago
                > has a lot to answer for !
                >
                > J T Dyamond.
                >
                > Ar 28/08/11 23:21 :01, scríobh ALAN BOND:
                > >
                > > Hi Folks,
                > >                I am very much inclined to agree with this conclusion
                > > and and at least eight leading authorities have identified the
                > > clarinet player on this Oliver session as Jimmie Noone. However,
                > >
                > Buster Bailey was the regular clarinet player with the Oliver band at
                > > this time so just why he was not available for this session is a mystery.
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • David Brown
                Hi Michael Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 29, 2011
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                  Hi Michael

                  Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
                  October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
                  wherever was he ? -- in October 1923.


                  Dave


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • ALAN BOND
                  Hi Folks,               I have to agree that there are a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver s CJB in 1923/24 but we
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
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                    Hi Folks,
                                  I have to agree that there are
                    a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver's CJB in 1923/24 but we can't be certain that he replaced Dodds on a full time basis. It would appear that Dodds didn't enjoy exactly robust health at the time and
                    this may equate to the reason why he didn't appear on the Columbia sides. There is a gap between October 1923 & October 1924 and I will make a suggestion (and it can be no more than that) that Dodds
                    was suffering from some kind of viral illness which affected his ability
                    to perform his work and this kept him out work for about a year.
                    Tuberculosis or  rheumatic fever are possibilities but it could have
                    been something else which required a lengthy period of convalescence. He did some work in late 1924
                    with Tommy Ladnier as accompanist to the singing duo Ford & Ford and also with Edmonia Henderson which is followed by a gap until November 1925 when he joined Armstrong's Hot Five whose first session was as accompanists to Hociel Thomas. It would seem likely that it was due to Louis Armstrong that he did the work with Tommy Ladnier in 1924 and then, when Louis got the contract for the Hot Five & Seven sides, he got Dodds in, perhaps partly out of friendship, but certainly because of his musicianship. From then on Dodds recorded prolifically until late 1928 when he disappears from the recording scene for about ten years. Even so, he was not idle during this period as he was working consistently in clubs and bars in Chicago throughout the 'thirties and even if the work was probably not particularly lucrative, it would at least have been regular. It also says a lot about Louis and the way he looked after his friends and this is typified by
                    reports that he reputedly paid Honore Dutrey's hospital bills in 1934/5.
                    TTFN - 007

                    --- On Mon,
                    29/8/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:

                    From: David Brown
                    <johnhaleysims@...>
                    Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                    To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 14:56

                    Hi Michael

                    Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
                    October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
                    wherever was he  ?  -- in October 1923.


                    Dave


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    ------------------------------------

                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Nick Dellow
                    Charles Delaunay gives the recording date as 15/16 October 1923 in his discography, but it isn t clear from this if he means 15th AND 16th or 15th OR 16th.
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
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                      Charles Delaunay gives the recording date as "15/16 October 1923" in his
                      discography, but it isn't clear from this if he means 15th AND 16th or 15th
                      OR 16th. The Archeophone CD set states "circa" for both 15th and 16th, with
                      "Chattanooga Stomp" on the 15th and "London (Cafe) Blues", "Camp Meeting
                      Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. This is also the case in the
                      revised 'King Joe Oliver' by Laurie Wright, as well as the latest edition of
                      Jazz Records (6th Edition).



                      However, in the original edition of "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) the
                      date given for all the sides is October 15th. Crucially, in the notes for
                      this session there appears the following comment: "Recording date and
                      rejected takes are from Columbia files". If this is the case, then why the
                      change to 15th and 16th in Jazz Records?



                      In the first and second editions of Jazz Records both "Chattanooga Stomp"
                      and "London (Cafe) Blues" are stated to have been recorded on the 15th with
                      "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. Only by the third
                      edition is "Chattanooga" on the 15th with the other three on the 16th.
                      Nowhere does Brian Rust apply "circa", which I really think he should have
                      done, as there was (and still is!) obviously a lack of consensus!



                      Just to complicate matters, the first and second editions of Jazz Records
                      gives Buster Bailey as being on all four of the Columbias, the third to
                      fifth editions have "Buster Bailey or Jimmie Noone" for all four Columbias,
                      and the sixth edition has Jimmie Noone on "Chattanooga" only with Bailey on
                      the remaining three sides. In the original edition of "Joe King Oliver",
                      there is no mention of Buster Bailey for the Columbia session; Jimmie Noone
                      is assigned to all the Columbia sides.



                      Incidentally, the differences in tone and balance between the first Columbia
                      side ("Chattanooga") and the others does not necessarily mean that they must
                      have been recorded on different days. There could have been a break on the
                      same day while adjustments to the recording equipment and studio settings
                      were made. The fact that no less than seven masters following "Chattanooga"
                      were rejected ("Junk Man Blues" takes 1 to 3, and "London Blues" takes 1 to
                      4) certainly suggests some sort of problem with the equipment and/or
                      instrument balance.



                      The notes in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) also state that "Preston
                      Jackson once said (Down Beat, Nov 1, 1942) that Oliver used Noone and Atkins
                      on one date, and this is evidently it; the trombone is certainly not Dutrey
                      so is likely to be Atkins. The clarinet is not Dodds; WR once played this
                      for Dodds, who said it was not himself. Noone admitted being on one side
                      (Jazz Information, II:16) and can be identified by ear (Hughes Panassi�, WR,
                      John D.R. Wheater, Brian A.L. Rust, Walter C. Allen, Charles Delaunay, Dave
                      Stuart, Gene Williams). Noone is said to have both identified and disclaimed
                      his presence on hearing these records." If Brian Rust is sure it is Noone
                      here, then why the change to Buster Bailey for all four Columbias in Jazz
                      Records?



                      According to Rex Harris and Max Jones in Collector's Corner (Melody Maker,
                      1947), "It is known that Oliver was angry with Dodds (or some say he used a
                      different personnel because he was recording for Columbia) and took Jimmy
                      Noone in his place. He may have used Ed Atkins too, instead of Dutrey."



                      My own view is that Buster Bailey is the clarinettist on "London Blues",
                      "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" and possibly on all four sides.
                      I have prepared a sound clip comparing the clarinet solo in "Camp Meeting
                      Blues" with a clip from a known Bailey side - "Squeeze Me" � one of the solo
                      sides he recorded for Banner in May 1925. Allowing for the gap of 19 months,
                      and the different studios, these sound like they could very well be the work
                      of the same man (at least to my ears). The vibrato (the best sonic
                      fingerprint in my view) is all but identical. Of course, early Bailey
                      clarinet is quite different from the later, thinner toned (and flashier)
                      solos he recorded with Henderson. Part of the reason for the difference in
                      tone between early and later Bailey is, I think, that the earlier Bailey was
                      playing an Albert system clarinet, which of course produces a "woodier"
                      sound.



                      If anyone would like an mp3 of this sound comparison file, please email me
                      and I will send it to them.





                      Nick






                      On 30 August 2011 08:28, ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:

                      > **
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Folks,
                      > I have to agree that there are
                      > a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver's CJB
                      > in 1923/24 but we can't be certain that he replaced Dodds on a full time
                      > basis. It would appear that Dodds didn't enjoy exactly robust health at the
                      > time and
                      > this may equate to the reason why he didn't appear on the Columbia sides.
                      > There is a gap between October 1923 & October 1924 and I will make a
                      > suggestion (and it can be no more than that) that Dodds
                      > was suffering from some kind of viral illness which affected his ability
                      > to perform his work and this kept him out work for about a year.
                      > Tuberculosis or rheumatic fever are possibilities but it could have
                      > been something else which required a lengthy period of convalescence. He
                      > did some work in late 1924
                      > with Tommy Ladnier as accompanist to the singing duo Ford & Ford and also
                      > with Edmonia Henderson which is followed by a gap until November 1925 when
                      > he joined Armstrong's Hot Five whose first session was as accompanists to
                      > Hociel Thomas. It would seem likely that it was due to Louis Armstrong that
                      > he did the work with Tommy Ladnier in 1924 and then, when Louis got the
                      > contract for the Hot Five & Seven sides, he got Dodds in, perhaps partly out
                      > of friendship, but certainly because of his musicianship. From then on Dodds
                      > recorded prolifically until late 1928 when he disappears from the recording
                      > scene for about ten years. Even so, he was not idle during this period as he
                      > was working consistently in clubs and bars in Chicago throughout the
                      > 'thirties and even if the work was probably not particularly lucrative, it
                      > would at least have been regular. It also says a lot about Louis and the way
                      > he looked after his friends and this is typified by
                      > reports that he reputedly paid Honore Dutrey's hospital bills in 1934/5.
                      > TTFN - 007
                      >
                      > --- On Mon,
                      > 29/8/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: David Brown
                      > <johnhaleysims@...>
                      > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                      > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 14:56
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Michael
                      >
                      > Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
                      > October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
                      > wherever was he ? -- in October 1923.
                      >
                      > Dave
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Nick Dellow
                      Correction ! - the recording dates in King Joe Oliver (Allen and Rust) are given as 15th for Chattanooga Stomp and London (Cafe) Blues , and 16th for
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
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                        Correction ! - the recording dates in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust)
                        are given as 15th for "Chattanooga Stomp" and "London (Cafe) Blues", and
                        16th for "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp". According to the
                        notes, the dates come from the Columbia files. Which still begs the question
                        - why was "London Blues" subsequently shifted to the 16th?


                        Nick

                        On 30 August 2011 11:48, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...> wrote:

                        > Charles Delaunay gives the recording date as "15/16 October 1923" in his
                        > discography, but it isn't clear from this if he means 15th AND 16th or 15th
                        > OR 16th. The Archeophone CD set states "circa" for both 15th and 16th, with
                        > "Chattanooga Stomp" on the 15th and "London (Cafe) Blues", "Camp Meeting
                        > Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. This is also the case in the
                        > revised 'King Joe Oliver' by Laurie Wright, as well as the latest edition of
                        > Jazz Records (6th Edition).
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > However, in the original edition of "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) the
                        > date given for all the sides is October 15th. Crucially, in the notes for
                        > this session there appears the following comment: "Recording date and
                        > rejected takes are from Columbia files". If this is the case, then why the
                        > change to 15th and 16th in Jazz Records?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > In the first and second editions of Jazz Records both "Chattanooga Stomp"
                        > and "London (Cafe) Blues" are stated to have been recorded on the 15th with
                        > "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. Only by the third
                        > edition is "Chattanooga" on the 15th with the other three on the 16th.
                        > Nowhere does Brian Rust apply "circa", which I really think he should have
                        > done, as there was (and still is!) obviously a lack of consensus!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Just to complicate matters, the first and second editions of Jazz Records
                        > gives Buster Bailey as being on all four of the Columbias, the third to
                        > fifth editions have "Buster Bailey or Jimmie Noone" for all four Columbias,
                        > and the sixth edition has Jimmie Noone on "Chattanooga" only with Bailey on
                        > the remaining three sides. In the original edition of "Joe King Oliver",
                        > there is no mention of Buster Bailey for the Columbia session; Jimmie Noone
                        > is assigned to all the Columbia sides.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Incidentally, the differences in tone and balance between the first
                        > Columbia side ("Chattanooga") and the others does not necessarily mean that
                        > they must have been recorded on different days. There could have been
                        > a break on the same day while adjustments to the recording equipment and
                        > studio settings were made. The fact that no less than seven masters
                        > following "Chattanooga" were rejected ("Junk Man Blues" takes 1 to 3, and
                        > "London Blues" takes 1 to 4) certainly suggests some sort of problem with
                        > the equipment and/or instrument balance.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The notes in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) also state that "Preston
                        > Jackson once said (Down Beat, Nov 1, 1942) that Oliver used Noone and Atkins
                        > on one date, and this is evidently it; the trombone is certainly not Dutrey
                        > so is likely to be Atkins. The clarinet is not Dodds; WR once played this
                        > for Dodds, who said it was not himself. Noone admitted being on one side
                        > (Jazz Information, II:16) and can be identified by ear (Hughes Panassi�, WR,
                        > John D.R. Wheater, Brian A.L. Rust, Walter C. Allen, Charles Delaunay, Dave
                        > Stuart, Gene Williams). Noone is said to have both identified and disclaimed
                        > his presence on hearing these records." If Brian Rust is sure it is Noone
                        > here, then why the change to Buster Bailey for all four Columbias in Jazz
                        > Records?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > According to Rex Harris and Max Jones in Collector's Corner (Melody Maker,
                        > 1947), "It is known that Oliver was angry with Dodds (or some say he used a
                        > different personnel because he was recording for Columbia) and took Jimmy
                        > Noone in his place. He may have used Ed Atkins too, instead of Dutrey."
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > My own view is that Buster Bailey is the clarinettist on "London Blues",
                        > "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" and possibly on all four sides.
                        > I have prepared a sound clip comparing the clarinet solo in "Camp Meeting
                        > Blues" with a clip from a known Bailey side - "Squeeze Me" � one of the solo
                        > sides he recorded for Banner in May 1925. Allowing for the gap of 19 months,
                        > and the different studios, these sound like they could very well be the work
                        > of the same man (at least to my ears). The vibrato (the best sonic
                        > fingerprint in my view) is all but identical. Of course, early Bailey
                        > clarinet is quite different from the later, thinner toned (and flashier)
                        > solos he recorded with Henderson. Part of the reason for the difference in
                        > tone between early and later Bailey is, I think, that the earlier Bailey was
                        > playing an Albert system clarinet, which of course produces a "woodier"
                        > sound.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > If anyone would like an mp3 of this sound comparison file, please email me
                        > and I will send it to them.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Nick
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On 30 August 2011 08:28, ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >> **
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Hi Folks,
                        >> I have to agree that there are
                        >> a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver's CJB
                        >> in 1923/24 but we can't be certain that he replaced Dodds on a full time
                        >> basis. It would appear that Dodds didn't enjoy exactly robust health at the
                        >> time and
                        >> this may equate to the reason why he didn't appear on the Columbia sides.
                        >> There is a gap between October 1923 & October 1924 and I will make a
                        >> suggestion (and it can be no more than that) that Dodds
                        >> was suffering from some kind of viral illness which affected his ability
                        >> to perform his work and this kept him out work for about a year.
                        >> Tuberculosis or rheumatic fever are possibilities but it could have
                        >> been something else which required a lengthy period of convalescence. He
                        >> did some work in late 1924
                        >> with Tommy Ladnier as accompanist to the singing duo Ford & Ford and also
                        >> with Edmonia Henderson which is followed by a gap until November 1925 when
                        >> he joined Armstrong's Hot Five whose first session was as accompanists to
                        >> Hociel Thomas. It would seem likely that it was due to Louis Armstrong that
                        >> he did the work with Tommy Ladnier in 1924 and then, when Louis got the
                        >> contract for the Hot Five & Seven sides, he got Dodds in, perhaps partly out
                        >> of friendship, but certainly because of his musicianship. From then on Dodds
                        >> recorded prolifically until late 1928 when he disappears from the recording
                        >> scene for about ten years. Even so, he was not idle during this period as he
                        >> was working consistently in clubs and bars in Chicago throughout the
                        >> 'thirties and even if the work was probably not particularly lucrative, it
                        >> would at least have been regular. It also says a lot about Louis and the way
                        >> he looked after his friends and this is typified by
                        >> reports that he reputedly paid Honore Dutrey's hospital bills in 1934/5.
                        >> TTFN - 007
                        >>
                        >> --- On Mon,
                        >> 29/8/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> From: David Brown
                        >> <johnhaleysims@...>
                        >> Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                        >> To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                        >> Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 14:56
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Hi Michael
                        >>
                        >> Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
                        >> October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
                        >> wherever was he ? -- in October 1923.
                        >>
                        >> Dave
                        >>
                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>
                        >> ------------------------------------
                        >>
                        >> ------------------------------------
                        >>
                        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • ALAN BOND
                        Hi Folks,                I believe that at one point Buster Bailey used a metal clarinet and at times with the John Kirby band he used an Albert
                        Message 11 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Folks,
                                         I believe that at one point Buster Bailey used a metal clarinet and at times with the John Kirby band he used an Albert system instrument. Whether we can be sure he used the former on any recordings at all would be a matter for much conjecture but there are occasions among the John Kirby recordings where he appears to be using different instruments.
                          TTFN - 007

                          --- On Tue, 30/8/11, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...> wrote:

                          From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...>
                          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 12:00

                          Correction !  -  the recording dates in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust)
                          are given as 15th for "Chattanooga Stomp" and "London (Cafe) Blues", and
                          16th for "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp". According to the
                          notes, the dates come from the Columbia files. Which still begs the question
                          - why was "London Blues" subsequently shifted to the 16th?


                          Nick

                          On 30 August 2011 11:48, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...> wrote:

                          > Charles Delaunay gives the recording date as "15/16 October 1923" in his
                          > discography, but it isn't clear from this if he means 15th AND 16th or 15th
                          > OR 16th. The Archeophone CD set states "circa" for both 15th and 16th, with
                          > "Chattanooga Stomp" on the 15th and "London (Cafe) Blues", "Camp Meeting
                          > Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. This is also the case in the
                          > revised 'King Joe Oliver' by Laurie Wright, as well as the latest edition of
                          > Jazz Records (6th Edition).
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > However, in the original edition of "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) the
                          > date given for all the sides is October 15th. Crucially, in the notes for
                          > this session there appears the following comment: "Recording date and
                          > rejected takes are from Columbia files". If this is the case, then why the
                          > change to 15th and 16th in Jazz Records?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > In the first and second editions of Jazz Records both "Chattanooga Stomp"
                          > and "London (Cafe) Blues" are stated to have been recorded on the 15th with
                          > "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. Only by the third
                          > edition is "Chattanooga" on the 15th with the other three on the 16th.
                          > Nowhere does Brian Rust apply "circa", which I really think he should have
                          > done, as there was (and still is!) obviously a lack of consensus!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Just to complicate matters, the first and second editions of Jazz Records
                          > gives Buster Bailey as being on all four of the Columbias, the third to
                          > fifth editions have "Buster Bailey or Jimmie Noone" for all four Columbias,
                          > and the sixth edition has Jimmie Noone on "Chattanooga" only with Bailey on
                          > the remaining three sides. In the original edition of "Joe King Oliver",
                          > there is no mention of Buster Bailey for the Columbia session; Jimmie Noone
                          > is assigned to all the Columbia sides.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Incidentally, the differences in tone and balance between the first
                          > Columbia side ("Chattanooga") and the others does not necessarily mean that
                          > they must have been recorded on different days. There could have been
                          > a break on the same day while adjustments to the recording equipment and
                          > studio settings were made. The fact that no less than seven masters
                          > following "Chattanooga" were rejected ("Junk Man Blues" takes 1 to 3, and
                          > "London Blues" takes 1 to 4) certainly suggests some sort of problem with
                          > the equipment and/or instrument balance.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The notes in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) also state that "Preston
                          > Jackson once said (Down Beat, Nov 1, 1942) that Oliver used Noone and Atkins
                          > on one date, and this is evidently it; the trombone is certainly not Dutrey
                          > so is likely to be Atkins. The clarinet is not Dodds; WR once played this
                          > for Dodds, who said it was not himself. Noone admitted being on one side
                          > (Jazz Information, II:16) and can be identified by ear (Hughes Panassié, WR,
                          > John D.R. Wheater, Brian A.L. Rust, Walter C. Allen, Charles Delaunay, Dave
                          > Stuart, Gene Williams). Noone is said to have both identified and disclaimed
                          > his presence on hearing these records." If Brian Rust is sure it is Noone
                          > here, then why the change to Buster Bailey for all four Columbias in Jazz
                          > Records?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > According to Rex Harris and Max Jones in Collector's Corner (Melody Maker,
                          > 1947), "It is known that Oliver was angry with Dodds (or some say he used a
                          > different personnel because he was recording for Columbia) and took Jimmy
                          > Noone in his place. He may have used Ed Atkins too, instead of Dutrey."
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > My own view is that Buster Bailey is the clarinettist on "London Blues",
                          > "Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" and possibly on all four sides.
                          > I have prepared a sound clip comparing the clarinet solo in "Camp Meeting
                          > Blues" with a clip from a known Bailey side - "Squeeze Me" – one of the solo
                          > sides he recorded for Banner in May 1925. Allowing for the gap of 19 months,
                          > and the different studios, these sound like they could very well be the work
                          > of the same man (at least to my ears). The vibrato (the best sonic
                          > fingerprint in my view) is all but identical. Of course, early Bailey
                          > clarinet is quite different from the later, thinner toned (and flashier)
                          > solos he recorded with Henderson. Part of the reason for the difference in
                          > tone between early and later Bailey is, I think, that the earlier Bailey was
                          > playing an Albert system clarinet, which of course produces a "woodier"
                          > sound.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > If anyone would like an mp3 of this sound comparison file, please email me
                          > and I will send it to them.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Nick
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On 30 August 2011 08:28, ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >> **
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Hi Folks,
                          >>               I have to agree that there are
                          >> a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver's CJB
                          >> in 1923/24 but we can't be certain that he replaced Dodds on a full time
                          >> basis. It would appear that Dodds didn't enjoy exactly robust health at the
                          >> time and
                          >> this may equate to the reason why he didn't appear on the Columbia sides.
                          >> There is a gap between October 1923 & October 1924 and I will make a
                          >> suggestion (and it can be no more than that) that Dodds
                          >> was suffering from some kind of viral illness which affected his ability
                          >> to perform his work and this kept him out work for about a year.
                          >> Tuberculosis or  rheumatic fever are possibilities but it could have
                          >> been something else which required a lengthy period of convalescence. He
                          >> did some work in late 1924
                          >> with Tommy Ladnier as accompanist to the singing duo Ford & Ford and also
                          >> with Edmonia Henderson which is followed by a gap until November 1925 when
                          >> he joined Armstrong's Hot Five whose first session was as accompanists to
                          >> Hociel Thomas. It would seem likely that it was due to Louis Armstrong that
                          >> he did the work with Tommy Ladnier in 1924 and then, when Louis got the
                          >> contract for the Hot Five & Seven sides, he got Dodds in, perhaps partly out
                          >> of friendship, but certainly because of his musicianship. From then on Dodds
                          >> recorded prolifically until late 1928 when he disappears from the recording
                          >> scene for about ten years. Even so, he was not idle during this period as he
                          >> was working consistently in clubs and bars in Chicago throughout the
                          >> 'thirties and even if the work was probably not particularly lucrative, it
                          >> would at least have been regular. It also says a lot about Louis and the way
                          >> he looked after his friends and this is typified by
                          >> reports that he reputedly paid Honore Dutrey's hospital bills in 1934/5.
                          >> TTFN - 007
                          >>
                          >> --- On Mon,
                          >> 29/8/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >> From: David Brown
                          >> <johnhaleysims@...>
                          >> Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                          >> To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                          >> Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 14:56
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Hi Michael
                          >>
                          >> Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
                          >> October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
                          >> wherever was he  ?  -- in October 1923.
                          >>
                          >> Dave
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >> ------------------------------------
                          >>
                          >> ------------------------------------
                          >>
                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >> 
                          >>
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          ------------------------------------

                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • silverleafjb
                          snip What I previously observed was that the unmistakable sweet sound -- tone -- ... I m going out on a limb here, but it is within the realm of possibility
                          Message 12 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            snip> What I previously observed was that the unmistakable sweet sound -- tone --
                            > of Noone is absent from the last three Columbia sides which were apparently
                            > recorded on the day after the first side. And does anybody know the evidence
                            > for this ? The acoustic and balance for these sides -- and the tone of the
                            > clarinet -- certainly sound different.
                            >

                            I'm going out on a limb here, but it is within the realm of possibility that Noone may have felt obligated to alter his sweet sound in favor of the more rugged sound of the Oliver band. I think there were two sides to Noone and his playing became sweeter the older he got.

                            Cheers,
                            Chris
                          • silverleafjb
                            ALAN BOND wrote: snip I would, however, disagree with the conclusions regarding Buster Bailey. His technical ability was far in advance of
                            Message 13 of 23 , Aug 30, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:
                              snip> I would, however, disagree with the conclusions regarding Buster Bailey. His technical ability was far in advance of Noone's, as his work with Fletcher Henderson and John Kirby testifies.

                              Not to be contentious, Alan, but you are referring to Bailey ten years later, in the context of Kirby and Henderson. And my original comment was:

                              "Bailey was a capable clarinetist but he just didn't have the FEELING that Noone did."

                              IMO Noone played with a much better "jazz" feel (for lack of a better term for it) than Bailey. Yes, Bailey had prodigious technique, but to me, I've never been able to stand the tone he got on the instrument. I'd rather hear a clarinetist with a nice tone and limited technique than someone with lots of technique. My feeling is technique is only a means to an end, not the end itself, and that goes for anyone playing any instrument.

                              He did play metal clarinet but I don't think he ever played Albert. At least I've never seen a photo of him with an Albert.

                              I also believe Noone took lessons from Franz Schoepp.

                              Cheers,
                              Chris
                            • David Brown
                              Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history. You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for -- the
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history.

                                You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for --
                                the continual discographical amendments ?

                                Perhaps somebody with Storyvilles -- and an index -- could check for this
                                topic.

                                What this proves is that the clarinet on the Columbias has always been
                                contentious and it is not so easy to pick and open to alternative aural
                                interpretation. I myself have heard it both -- if not all -- ways over the
                                years.

                                The 7 rejected takes might also suggest a problem with the musicians rather
                                than the equipment. Certainly Noone on 'Chattanooga' sounds less than his
                                fluent best and the playing on the other three sides is stronger. I can't
                                think there was any temperamental or musical clash between Oliver and Noone
                                and maybe the latter was 'under the weather' and, for reasons of safety, an
                                alternative was found for the next day's session.

                                As to Buster, he was a better jazz player earlier, when his models were New
                                Orleanian, and before his studies with Schoepp which I consider the reason
                                for his drastic change is style. But I also note that Noone studied with
                                Schoepp.

                                The tenuous and circumstantial documentary evidence would seem to come down
                                for the Columbias having both Noone and Buster.

                                Aurally, you pays your money and takes your choice but I believe, without
                                doubt, that Noone is on 'Chattanooga'.


                                Dave





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • ALAN BOND
                                Hi Folks,                 That sounds like a reasonable theory to me and I don t think we are going to get any closer unless new information
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Folks,
                                                  That sounds like a reasonable theory to me and I don't think we are going to get any closer unless new information surfaces.
                                                  I am afraid I can't agree that Buster Bailey was a better jazz player in 1923 than he was in, say, 1940. His work with John Kirby alone is proof of that. It's very like saying that Ian Wheeler was a better player when he was with Ken Colyer than when he was with Chris Barber. Musicians develop their skills over time just like anyone else who takes an interest in their craft and they are also subject to other musical influences.

                                  TTFN - 007

                                  --- On Thu, 1/9/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrotIe:

                                  From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                                  Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                                  To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 9:52

                                  Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history.

                                  You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for --
                                  the continual discographical amendments ?

                                  Perhaps somebody with Storyvilles -- and an index -- could check for this
                                  topic.

                                  What this proves is that the clarinet on the Columbias has always been
                                  contentious and it is not so easy to pick and open to alternative aural
                                  interpretation. I myself have heard it both -- if not all -- ways over the
                                  years.

                                  The 7 rejected takes might also suggest a problem with the musicians rather
                                  than the equipment. Certainly Noone on 'Chattanooga' sounds less than his
                                  fluent best and the playing on the other three sides is stronger. I can't
                                  think there was any temperamental or musical clash between Oliver and Noone
                                  and maybe the latter was 'under the weather' and, for reasons of safety, an
                                  alternative was found for the next day's session.

                                  As to Buster, he was a better jazz player earlier, when his models were New
                                  Orleanian, and before his studies with Schoepp which I  consider the reason
                                  for his drastic change is style. But I also note that Noone studied with
                                  Schoepp.

                                  The tenuous and circumstantial documentary evidence would seem to come down
                                  for the Columbias having both Noone and Buster.

                                  Aurally, you pays your money and takes your choice but I believe, without
                                  doubt, that Noone is on 'Chattanooga'.


                                  Dave





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                  ------------------------------------

                                  ------------------------------------

                                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Howard Rye
                                  This is a disagreement caused merely by failure to define terms. Bailey was unquestionably technically superior in 1940 but does this make him a better jazz
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    This is a disagreement caused merely by failure to define terms. Bailey was
                                    unquestionably technically superior in 1940 but does this make him a better
                                    jazz player? Many commentators, especially those oriented towards
                                    traditional jazz, have thought otherwise.

                                    John Chilton¹s ³Deficient in the emotional directness expected of the
                                    greatest jazz musicians¹ (Grove) is at least a sustainable comment, but not
                                    in respect of his earliest recordings. It¹s clear to me that he chose to
                                    play in a more detached style with Kirby and on other later associations.
                                    Some of his blues accompaniments show that it was a choice and that he could
                                    still achieve a different balance between emotion and technique when he
                                    wanted.


                                    on 01/09/2011 12:06, ALAN BOND at alan_bond@... wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Folks,
                                    >                 That sounds like a reasonable theory to me and I don't think
                                    > we are going to get any closer unless new information surfaces.
                                    >                 I am afraid I can't agree that Buster Bailey was a better jazz
                                    > player in 1923 than he was in, say, 1940. His work with John Kirby alone is
                                    > proof of that. It's very like saying that Ian Wheeler was a better player when
                                    > he was with Ken Colyer than when he was with Chris Barber. Musicians develop
                                    > their skills over time just like anyone else who takes an interest in their
                                    > craft and they are also subject to other musical influences.
                                    >
                                    > TTFN - 007
                                    >
                                    > --- On Thu, 1/9/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...
                                    > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> > wrotIe:
                                    >
                                    > From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...
                                    > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> >
                                    > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                                    > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 9:52
                                    >
                                    > Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history.
                                    >
                                    > You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for --
                                    > the continual discographical amendments ?
                                    >
                                    > Perhaps somebody with Storyvilles -- and an index -- could check for this
                                    > topic.
                                    >
                                    > What this proves is that the clarinet on the Columbias has always been
                                    > contentious and it is not so easy to pick and open to alternative aural
                                    > interpretation. I myself have heard it both -- if not all -- ways over the
                                    > years.
                                    >
                                    > The 7 rejected takes might also suggest a problem with the musicians rather
                                    > than the equipment. Certainly Noone on 'Chattanooga' sounds less than his
                                    > fluent best and the playing on the other three sides is stronger. I can't
                                    > think there was any temperamental or musical clash between Oliver and Noone
                                    > and maybe the latter was 'under the weather' and, for reasons of safety, an
                                    > alternative was found for the next day's session.
                                    >
                                    > As to Buster, he was a better jazz player earlier, when his models were New
                                    > Orleanian, and before his studies with Schoepp which I  consider the reason
                                    > for his drastic change is style. But I also note that Noone studied with
                                    > Schoepp.
                                    >
                                    > The tenuous and circumstantial documentary evidence would seem to come down
                                    > for the Columbias having both Noone and Buster.
                                    >
                                    > Aurally, you pays your money and takes your choice but I believe, without
                                    > doubt, that Noone is on 'Chattanooga'.
                                    >
                                    > Dave
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                    howard@...
                                    Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • ALAN BOND
                                    Hi Folks,               Answer - YES TTFN - 007 ... From: Howard Rye Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Folks,
                                                    Answer - YES
                                      TTFN - 007

                                      --- On Thu, 1/9/11, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:

                                      From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                                      To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 12:19

                                      This is a disagreement caused merely by failure to define terms. Bailey was
                                      unquestionably technically superior in 1940 but does this make him a better
                                      jazz player? Many commentators, especially those oriented towards
                                      traditional jazz, have thought otherwise.

                                      John Chilton¹s ³Deficient in the emotional directness expected of the
                                      greatest jazz musicians¹ (Grove) is at least a sustainable comment, but not
                                      in respect of his earliest recordings. It¹s clear to me that he chose to
                                      play in a more detached style with Kirby and on other later associations.
                                      Some of his blues accompaniments show that it was a choice and that he could
                                      still achieve a different balance between emotion and technique when he
                                      wanted.


                                      on 01/09/2011 12:06, ALAN BOND at alan_bond@... wrote:




                                      >   
                                      >
                                      > Hi Folks,
                                      >                 That sounds like a reasonable theory to me and I don't think
                                      > we are going to get any closer unless new information surfaces.
                                      >                 I am afraid I can't agree that Buster Bailey was a better jazz
                                      > player in 1923 than he was in, say, 1940. His work with John Kirby alone is
                                      > proof of that. It's very like saying that Ian Wheeler was a better player when
                                      > he was with Ken Colyer than when he was with Chris Barber. Musicians develop
                                      > their skills over time just like anyone else who takes an interest in their
                                      > craft and they are also subject to other musical influences.
                                      >
                                      > TTFN - 007
                                      >
                                      > --- On Thu, 1/9/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...
                                      > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> > wrotIe:
                                      >
                                      > From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...
                                      > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> >
                                      > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                                      > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 9:52
                                      >
                                      > Many thanks Nick for the definitive discographical overview and history.
                                      >
                                      > You put your finger right on the nub -- why -- what source was there for --
                                      > the continual discographical amendments ?
                                      >
                                      > Perhaps somebody with Storyvilles -- and an index -- could check for this
                                      > topic.
                                      >
                                      > What this proves is that the clarinet on the Columbias has always been
                                      > contentious and it is not so easy to pick and open to alternative aural
                                      > interpretation. I myself have heard it both -- if not all -- ways over the
                                      > years.
                                      >
                                      > The 7 rejected takes might also suggest a problem with the musicians rather
                                      > than the equipment. Certainly Noone on 'Chattanooga' sounds less than his
                                      > fluent best and the playing on the other three sides is stronger. I can't
                                      > think there was any temperamental or musical clash between Oliver and Noone
                                      > and maybe the latter was 'under the weather' and, for reasons of safety, an
                                      > alternative was found for the next day's session.
                                      >
                                      > As to Buster, he was a better jazz player earlier, when his models were New
                                      > Orleanian, and before his studies with Schoepp which I  consider the reason
                                      > for his drastic change is style. But I also note that Noone studied with
                                      > Schoepp.
                                      >
                                      > The tenuous and circumstantial documentary evidence would seem to come down
                                      > for the Columbias having both Noone and Buster.
                                      >
                                      > Aurally, you pays your money and takes your choice but I believe, without
                                      > doubt, that Noone is on 'Chattanooga'.
                                      >
                                      > Dave
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
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                                      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                      howard@...
                                      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




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                                    • David Brown
                                      Right Howard There are indeed a few late examples of Buster playing a good blues but his normal blues mode was rather too glib. However, this style totally
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
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                                        Right Howard

                                        There are indeed a few late examples of Buster playing a good blues but his
                                        normal blues mode was rather too glib. However, this style totally suited
                                        the 'tight arsed' Kirby band of which he was the best part.

                                        I can't remember source but Buster was extremely jealous of Goodman,
                                        considering himself the better player and this was the reason for the rather
                                        dreadful 'Man With A Horn Goes Berserk' in which he displays his speed at
                                        the sacrifice of music and any semblance of jazz tone or even decent
                                        classical tone.

                                        Goodman reported playing duets with Buster for Schoepp but I doubt if
                                        either, or Noone, had their jazz playing enhanced. Noone also became rather
                                        glib although even late could play a sublime blues.

                                        Goodman's jazz was even more damaged by his studies with Kell and I posit
                                        that 'proper' classical technique is really inimical to jazz and certainly
                                        jazz tone, whatever that is.

                                        I also conjecture that the riches that we have within our 'red hot' period
                                        are due, in no small part, to the fact that the musicians were self, or
                                        badly, taught and often had 'faulty' technique.


                                        Dave


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                                      • ALAN BOND
                                        Hi Folks,               If you want blues feeling from a clarinet player look no further than Russell Procope or Barney Bigard. The former is on
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
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                                          Hi Folks,
                                                        If you want blues feeling from a clarinet player look no further than Russell Procope or Barney Bigard. The former is on Jelly Roll Morton's 'Deep Creek' and his short clarinet passage there has more blues feeling than I would have credited to any man. Bigard, of course, spent all those years with Duke Ellington and his chair was latterly taken by Russell Procope who added another value to the rich tapestry of the Ellington band. Neither of them were 'flashy' technical players either and both paid homage to Buster Bailey at one time or another.
                                          TTFN - 007

                                          --- On Thu, 1/9/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:

                                          From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                                          Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
                                          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Thursday, 1 September, 2011, 15:46

                                          Right Howard

                                          There are indeed a few late examples of Buster playing a good blues but his
                                          normal blues mode was rather too glib. However, this style totally suited
                                          the 'tight arsed' Kirby band of which he was the best part.

                                          I can't remember source but Buster was extremely jealous of Goodman,
                                          considering himself the better player and this was the reason for the rather
                                          dreadful 'Man With A Horn Goes Berserk' in which he displays his speed at
                                          the sacrifice of music and any semblance of jazz tone or even decent
                                          classical tone.

                                          Goodman reported playing duets with Buster for Schoepp but I doubt if
                                          either, or Noone, had their jazz playing enhanced. Noone also became rather
                                          glib although even late could play a sublime blues.

                                          Goodman's jazz was even more damaged by his studies with Kell and I posit
                                          that 'proper' classical technique is really inimical to jazz and certainly
                                          jazz tone, whatever that is.

                                          I also conjecture that the riches that we have within our 'red hot' period
                                          are due, in no small part, to the fact that the musicians were self, or
                                          badly, taught and often had 'faulty' technique.


                                          Dave


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                                        • David Brown
                                          Alan If it is Procope on Deep Creek I think the clarinet solo was written out by Morton because it is far more convincing blues than anything else he ever
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Sep 1, 2011
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                                            Alan

                                            If it is Procope on 'Deep Creek' I think the clarinet solo was written out
                                            by Morton because it is far more convincing blues than anything else he ever
                                            played. I feel that with Ellington he offered pastiche of N.O. clarinet.


                                            Dave


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                                          • David Brown
                                            An essay by Richard Rains on this subject appears in the latest VJM magazine. Mr Rains comes down for Noone throughout although fails to offer any new
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Sep 29, 2011
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                                              An essay by Richard Rains on this subject appears in the latest VJM
                                              magazine.

                                              Mr Rains comes down for Noone throughout although fails to offer any new
                                              evidence.

                                              On the contrary, he specifies the claim by Buster to Arnold Klein that he
                                              played on one Columbia date and, at one time, had test pressings.

                                              For us to discount this, as does Mr Rains, we must believe that either Klein
                                              or Buster were lying -- elaborately.

                                              However, we are left with the lack of documentary evidence for the Columbias
                                              being split over two consecutive days although Rust claimed this was from
                                              Columbia files. Do we also believe he was lying ?

                                              This issue must finally be decided aurally and that is subjective. There is
                                              near contemporary aural evidence of Buster which shows playing consistent in
                                              style with, and certainly not anomalous to, the last three Columbias. There
                                              is also aural evidence that the acoustic and balance of the last three sides
                                              is different from 'Chattanooga'. It is possible, as Mr Rains, to construct a
                                              scenario wherein the balance was altered during a single session but that
                                              the latter three sides were made at a later session is more probable because
                                              there were, after all, no playback possibilities in acoustic days.

                                              Also difficult to ignore Noone's own confirmation and denial of his presence
                                              when played these sides.


                                              Dave








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                                            • Howard Rye
                                              ... I have also seen these file cards and Brian is certainly not lying, but there is room for alternative interpretations. What follows only summarizes the
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Sep 30, 2011
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                                                on 29/09/2011 14:32, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                                                >
                                                >
                                                > However, we are left with the lack of documentary evidence for the Columbias
                                                > being split over two consecutive days although Rust claimed this was from
                                                > Columbia files. Do we also believe he was lying ?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                I have also seen these file cards and Brian is certainly not lying, but
                                                there is room for alternative interpretations.

                                                What follows only summarizes the conclusions set out by Laurie Wright in
                                                King Joe Oliver (pages 31-2), but the surviving filing from this era does
                                                not show recording dates. The source of the recording dates shown by earlier
                                                writers including the original Allen/Rust book is simply no longer known.
                                                However, this was published before Rust had had access to the files. Thew
                                                dates are claimed to be from the Columbia files and appear already in
                                                Delaunay, but were not known to Index to Jazz.

                                                All that can be said is that they can no longer be verified.

                                                The surviving file cards show only shipping dates. This date is 20 October
                                                1923 for 81300, 81301 (unissued) and 81302 takes-1-2-3 (unissued). For 81302
                                                takes 4-5, 81303, and 81304 the shipping date is 23 October 1923. There can
                                                be no doubt that, as Laurie Wright reports, the file card for 81302 has been
                                                reinserted in the typewriter to add the two additional takes, so this is not
                                                merely a techinical matter.

                                                Laurie of course believed that two clarinettists were involved and that one
                                                of them is heard only on 81300. It will be evident that anyone who wants to
                                                say this is a circular argument cannot be disproved with the data now
                                                available.

                                                I have not bothered to intervene before because clearly those who wish to
                                                discuss this have already rejected the conclusions in King Joe Oliver on the
                                                basis of rejecting the interpretation of the facts there given. They have no
                                                new facts to offer. Richard Rains hears what he wants to hear and is
                                                perfectly entitled to do so. He is perfectly entitled also to argue that
                                                Laurie Wright was doing the same. For my part I shall continue to regard
                                                Laurie¹s interpretation as definitive in the absence of any new evidence. I
                                                also, if I am honest, regard this continual speculative reworking of
                                                familiar ground as a waste of time when there is so much real research which
                                                could be being done.

                                                But to get back to the point. No Brian was not lying. I also guess Charles
                                                Delaunay had seen filing at Columbia that no longer existed by the 1970s.

                                                Incidentally in 1961 Columbia still had masters of at least one take of
                                                81300/03/04, not that it does us any good, and that was fifty years worth of
                                                new brooms ago at that.
                                                >


                                                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                                howard@...
                                                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




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                                              • David Brown
                                                Many thanks to Howard for the totally authoritative discographical overview. My question as to whether Rust was lying was rhetorical and I hope I implied that
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Oct 4, 2011
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                                                  Many thanks to Howard for the totally authoritative discographical overview.

                                                  My question as to whether Rust was lying was rhetorical and I hope I implied
                                                  that I did not believe the conspiracy theory involving Rust, Buster and/or
                                                  Klein and did not reject Laurie's opinion and research, which documentary
                                                  evidence from files and Buster, and even Noone, supports.

                                                  Although new documentary evidence is unlikely to appear, I do think such
                                                  chestnuts can usefully be revisited in the light of new technology. The
                                                  latest transcriptions offer detail that could never have been imagined in
                                                  the days of the discographical pioneers. It is possible now to slow and
                                                  speed and superimpose and compare extracts and even sound waves.

                                                  But, in end, even aural evidence of this refined definition is subjective.

                                                  Dave


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