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Re: [RedHotJazz] Johnny Dunn

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  • Howard Rye
    Bradford¹s claims do not apparently come from Born With The Blues (I am relying on the index for this statement), so they come from interviews conducted by
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 23 2:11 AM
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      Bradford¹s claims do not apparently come from Born With The Blues (I am
      relying on the index for this statement), so they come from interviews
      conducted by the Record Research crowd. I know there is something about this
      in the May 1966 issue. You will note that I guardedly noted in the insert
      notes that Bradford had ³reportedly said² that it was the Wooding band. My
      understanding is that he was the Jazz Hounds manager and contracted the
      dates, so if Dunn and the real JH were unavailable for a contracted date,
      it would have been down to him to provide a substitute band. We probably
      only have his word for any of this.

      Perry Bradford is generally interpreted in the same way as the Bible, i.e.
      believe the bits you want to believe and find reasons for rejecting the bits
      you don¹t!

      Brian¹s proceedings are quite logical if you assume that the report of a
      session in the Chicago Defender (13 May 1922 in this case) proves that it
      actually took place. Given Bradford¹s statements he didn¹t have try to very
      hard to make the fit, but given how many news items relating to
      entertainment are simply reprinted from press releases, the basic assumption
      may be false. This is certainly quite a leaky bucket.

      If only Mark Tucker had had this session available to play to Garvin
      Bushell.

      Dunn has an entry in Grove. I have the impression that although all jazz
      historians now formally reject the New Orleans to Chicago to New York model,
      almost everyone still writes as though it was true.


      on 23/02/2011 09:49, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks Howard
      >
      > Did Bradford have any association with the Original Jazz Hounds before the
      > sides of July 1925 ? Where are his assertions ?
      >
      > Seems to me like the great man, as often, was trying too hard to find a
      > session to fit supposed documentary evidence.
      >
      > Stiffer anyway than Dunn himself.
      >
      > I'll listen again, and around, spurred by your comments. But there is no
      > contemporary Wooding with which to compare.
      >
      > I think Dunn should be rehabilitated. He is ignored in standard jazz
      > histories. Or have I missed something ?
      >
      > Dave
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >


      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      howard@...
      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mordechai Litzman
      Can only think of one contemporary trumpet player that plays (played?) in the style of Johnny Dunn - Bob Oliver from England. And the only CD I have found of
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 23 8:40 AM
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        Can only think of one contemporary trumpet player that plays (played?) in the
        style of Johnny Dunn - Bob Oliver from England. And the only CD I have found of
        him is Bob Oliver's Hot Seven " 'Tain't Nobody's Bizness" on Stomp Off CD1312
        with recordings from 1994/1996.


        I am rather fond of this CD but have been unable to locate any other recordings
        by Bob Oliver. Does anybody have any information?





        ________________________________
        From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, February 23, 2011 4:49:33 AM
        Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Johnny Dunn


        I think Dunn should be rehabilitated. He is ignored in standard jazz
        histories. Or have I missed something ?

        Dave

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Brown
        I agree this is no jazz band and sounds like a pastiche of received ODJB style. Rust lists no clarinet although the dreadful Shields derived noise is all too
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 24 2:18 AM
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          I agree this is no jazz band and sounds like a pastiche of received ODJB
          style.

          Rust lists no clarinet although the dreadful Shields derived noise is all
          too evident.

          I just wonder that a black band could be so imitative and unrhythmic.

          I note that the Chicago Defender report was May 1922 whereas the session was
          February. Not exactly hot news.

          I think I would have to be convinced that the name of Wooding was not
          offered to Bradford.

          Any info at all on Bob Oliver ? I think that using Dunn as a model for
          revivalist trumpet would be unique.




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John McCusker
          I just wonder that a black band could be so imitative and unrhythmic. It s just the color of one s skin. DNA carries genetic code, not innate musical
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 24 3:48 AM
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            "I just wonder that a black band could be so imitative and unrhythmic."

            It's just the color of one's skin. DNA carries genetic code, not innate musical ability. Imitative? Isn't everyone?
            As for the swipes at the ODJB, I would take their classic records over anything done by James Reese Europe.










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            .





















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Howard Rye
            Did anyone suggest it was in the DNA? Paper tigers, paper tigers! But to argue that because it isn¹t in the DNA no one learns anything from their background
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 24 4:23 AM
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              Did anyone suggest it was in the DNA? Paper tigers, paper tigers!

              But to argue that because it isn¹t in the DNA no one learns anything from
              their background and upbringing is just as silly as to argue that it is in
              the DNA. Though I don¹t agree with Dave about the disc under discussion, if
              he was right it would be surprising that people with the background and
              upbringing the suggested personnel can be assumed to have had sounded like
              that. I suspect we are hearing and finding significant different aspects of
              the music. I have concluded that this happens quite often.

              Personally I would rather listen to Europe than the ODJB, but I¹m not sure
              why that should interest anyone else. It certainly doesn¹t interest me that
              you prefer the ODJB to Europe. This kind of thing is just a ³Yah, boo!² It
              certainly puts me in a very small minority! Alternatively it proves that I
              am basically a blues enthusiast. Which I am. We all need to remember that
              our opinions and assertions have no bearing whatever on the actual merits of
              the music.

              I think ³imitative² does mean something different from ³influenced by² but
              the usefulness of the distinction is eroded by lack of agreement on what the
              difference in meaning actually is.


              on 24/02/2011 11:48, John McCusker at ory1886@... wrote:

              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > "I just wonder that a black band could be so imitative and unrhythmic."
              >
              > It's just the color of one's skin. DNA carries genetic code, not innate
              > musical ability. Imitative? Isn't everyone?
              > As for the swipes at the ODJB, I would take their classic records over
              > anything done by James Reese Europe.
              >
              > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest € Unsubscribe € Terms of Use
              >
              > .
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John McCusker
              Curious why whenever I raise a point on this list it it meet by a dismissive paper tiger. Is this a list for discussion? In the end you helped make my point.
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 24 4:49 AM
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                Curious why whenever I raise a point on this list it it meet by a dismissive "paper tiger." Is this a list for discussion?
                In the end you helped make my point.
                Insular upbringing, nurture and culture were shared by the musicians of New Orleans. If it were only a matter of race jazz could have come from anywhere. That's why what Morton, Ory, Oliver and Bechet were doing early on so exceeded the efforts better trained musicians like James Reese Europe...or Fletcher Henderson pre-Louis for that matter IMO. Enjoy listening to JRE by all means....but as for me, I prefer jazz.







                --- On Thu, 2/24/11, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:

                From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] My those people have rhythm
                To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 6:23 AM







                 









                Did anyone suggest it was in the DNA? Paper tigers, paper tigers!



                But to argue that because it isn¹t in the DNA no one learns anything from

                their background and upbringing is just as silly as to argue that it is in

                the DNA. Though I don¹t agree with Dave about the disc under discussion, if

                he was right it would be surprising that people with the background and

                upbringing the suggested personnel can be assumed to have had sounded like

                that. I suspect we are hearing and finding significant different aspects of

                the music. I have concluded that this happens quite often.



                Personally I would rather listen to Europe than the ODJB, but I¹m not sure

                why that should interest anyone else. It certainly doesn¹t interest me that

                you prefer the ODJB to Europe. This kind of thing is just a ³Yah, boo!² It

                certainly puts me in a very small minority! Alternatively it proves that I

                am basically a blues enthusiast. Which I am. We all need to remember that

                our opinions and assertions have no bearing whatever on the actual merits of

                the music.



                I think ³imitative² does mean something different from ³influenced by² but

                the usefulness of the distinction is eroded by lack of agreement on what the

                difference in meaning actually is.



                on 24/02/2011 11:48, John McCusker at ory1886@... wrote:



                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                > "I just wonder that a black band could be so imitative and unrhythmic."

                >

                > It's just the color of one's skin. DNA carries genetic code, not innate

                > musical ability. Imitative? Isn't everyone?

                > As for the swipes at the ODJB, I would take their classic records over

                > anything done by James Reese Europe.

                >

                > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest € Unsubscribe € Terms of Use

                >

                > .

                >

                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >



                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB

                howard@...

                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Howard Rye
                Good. Glad I helped you make your point. I suspected there was no real disagreement. You help to make my point too, because what is at issue with these
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 24 5:36 AM
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                  Good. Glad I helped you make your point. I suspected there was no real
                  disagreement.

                  You help to make my point too, because what is at issue with these
                  particular recordings is in my opinion better elucidated by comparing them
                  with James Reese Europe’s than the ODJB’s. No one, I hope, is suggesting
                  that anyone from New Orleans was in any way involved with them. With these
                  guys were are looking, I think, at music with roots in Memphis and the
                  South-West rather than New Orleans roots. And then heavily modified by the
                  aspirations of middle-class schooled musicians in New York.

                  But I still wonder why you reacted by assuming that others thought it was do
                  with genetics when no one had suggested this. But let it pass. There doesn’t
                  seem to be a disagreement about this so let’s not carry on as if there was.


                  on 24/02/2011 12:49, John McCusker at ory1886@... wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Curious why whenever I raise a point on this list it it meet by a dismissive
                  > "paper tiger." Is this a list for discussion?
                  > In the end you helped make my point.
                  > Insular upbringing, nurture and culture were shared by the musicians of New
                  > Orleans. If it were only a matter of race jazz could have come from anywhere.
                  > That's why what Morton, Ory, Oliver and Bechet were doing early on so exceeded
                  > the efforts better trained musicians like James Reese Europe...or Fletcher
                  > Henderson pre-Louis for that matter IMO. Enjoy listening to JRE by all
                  > means....but as for me, I prefer jazz.
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 2/24/11, Howard Rye <howard@...
                  > <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk> > wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Howard Rye <howard@...
                  > <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk> >
                  > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] My those people have rhythm
                  > To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> >
                  > Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 6:23 AM
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > Did anyone suggest it was in the DNA? Paper tigers, paper tigers!
                  >
                  > But to argue that because it isn¹t in the DNA no one learns anything from
                  >
                  > their background and upbringing is just as silly as to argue that it is in
                  >
                  > the DNA. Though I don¹t agree with Dave about the disc under discussion, if
                  >
                  > he was right it would be surprising that people with the background and
                  >
                  > upbringing the suggested personnel can be assumed to have had sounded like
                  >
                  > that. I suspect we are hearing and finding significant different aspects of
                  >
                  > the music. I have concluded that this happens quite often.
                  >
                  > Personally I would rather listen to Europe than the ODJB, but I¹m not sure
                  >
                  > why that should interest anyone else. It certainly doesn¹t interest me that
                  >
                  > you prefer the ODJB to Europe. This kind of thing is just a ³Yah, boo!² It
                  >
                  > certainly puts me in a very small minority! Alternatively it proves that I
                  >
                  > am basically a blues enthusiast. Which I am. We all need to remember that
                  >
                  > our opinions and assertions have no bearing whatever on the actual merits of
                  >
                  > the music.
                  >
                  > I think ³imitative² does mean something different from ³influenced by² but
                  >
                  > the usefulness of the distinction is eroded by lack of agreement on what the
                  >
                  > difference in meaning actually is.
                  >
                  > on 24/02/2011 11:48, John McCusker at ory1886@...
                  > <mailto:ory1886%40yahoo.com> wrote:
                  >
                  >> >
                  >
                  >> >
                  >
                  >> >
                  >
                  >> >
                  >
                  >> >
                  >
                  >> > "I just wonder that a black band could be so imitative and unrhythmic."
                  >
                  >> >
                  >
                  >> > It's just the color of one's skin. DNA carries genetic code, not innate
                  >
                  >> > musical ability. Imitative? Isn't everyone?
                  >
                  >> > As for the swipes at the ODJB, I would take their classic records over
                  >
                  >> > anything done by James Reese Europe.
                  >
                  >> >
                  >
                  >> > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest € Unsubscribe € Terms of Use
                  >
                  >> >
                  >
                  >> > .
                  >
                  >> >
                  >
                  >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >> >
                  >
                  >> >
                  >
                  >> >
                  >
                  >> >
                  >
                  >> >
                  >
                  > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  >
                  > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                  >
                  > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  howard@...
                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Brown
                  John Paper Tiger in that nobody here ever suggested that a black band in NYC in 1922 might have more rhythmic vitality due to genetic content. The elements
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 24 6:51 AM
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                    John

                    'Paper Tiger' in that nobody here ever suggested that a black band in NYC in 1922 might have more rhythmic vitality due to genetic content. The elements that might lead one to expect that are cultural.

                    'Paper Tiger' also in that I did not attack ODJB. Check the archive for my views.

                    Shields was a fine clarinettist and the band much better than its mostly novelty repertoire allowed.

                    I initially refered to 'perverted' Shields and unfortunately it was the novelty elements in his style, and that of the ODJB generally, which were imitated.

                    An example may be heard in the Original Jazz Hounds sides under discussion.


                    Dave















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