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RE: [RedHotJazz] Early String Basses, was: Goldkette band and McKinney's Cotton Pickers

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  • Charles Bihun
    David   Given the example of Morton s high opinion of himself, your suspicion regarding who patronized whom is probably well founded.   In regard to depth of
    Message 1 of 39 , Jan 27, 2011
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      David
       

      Given the example of Morton's high opinion of himself, your suspicion regarding who patronized whom is probably well founded.
       
      In regard to depth of musical training among the racial groups before the advent of jazz, we have the example of Lois Moreau Gottschalk (white Jewish father and Creole mother, with several half brothers and sisters issuing from the union of his father and mulatto mistress--at what point did a mulatto become a Creole?).  Gottschalk's compositions were before 1869, when he died, which is well before the enlightened 20th century. 
       
      Many sources provide a picture of high culture, to include formal music training, among the New Orleans Creoles very early on.  The non-Creole coloreds and blacks would not have had to depend on whites for musical training.  It is fairly certain their were more non-whites that could sight read than whites who could swing. 
       
      Earlier someone else stated that Arabs might have a greater claim to being the originators of jazz than black and colored Africans.  Really?
       
      ChuckB 
       
       

      --- On Thu, 1/27/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:


      From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
      Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Early String Basses, was: Goldkette band and McKinney's Cotton Pickers
      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 9:37 AM


       



      Hi Howard

      Oh, I thought we were way down yonder on N.O. bass style.

      I would have to see evidence for musicians in N.O. meeting on anything
      except equal musical terms. If there was any patronisation I reckon it was
      more likely to come from Creoles than from whites. I also think that
      probably Creoles were the most schooled musicians in early N.O.

      Schaeffner, you'll have to give me a clue on his swing theory. Please.

      Swing, as we use it in jazz, is, as ever, indefinable but I think unique and
      impossible to extrapolate to it from other musics.

      I still find no evidence for me to presume that Bill Johnson invented slap.
      If it originated in N.O. then it is likely that it was after he left in
      1909.

      I agree Berton is a fiction and a jolly good read and can't think why I
      don't still have it.

      Come on, tell us what Mares answered.

      The Chicago Examiner quote is good but what knowledge or expererience of
      jazz would a white Chicagoan reporter have had in May 1915 to be able to
      isolate its source ?

      Dave

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    • David Brown
      John It s nice to read a knowledgeable New Orleanian but it would be easier if you could put your comments on one thread in a single post and also delete the
      Message 39 of 39 , Jan 30, 2011
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        John

        It's nice to read a knowledgeable New Orleanian but it would be easier if you could put your comments on one thread in a single post and also delete the previous traffic on the bottom.

        I am also answering the new Ory thread here because the threads get split and confusing even if we have wandered somewhat from the header.

        Ory was not Creole although his father was French and his mother Creole ? Mmm.

        But I understand what you mean is that he was a vernacular musician not working within the Creole band traditions. An odd irony then that his bands were always called 'Creole Jazz Band' and he included substantial Creole material his repertoire.

        I do not dispute the fact that Bolden's music was disdained by more musically educated and refined Creoles what I dispute is that there is any evidence that he or Ory or anybody deliberately reacted against the status quo.

        Nobody has here stated that 'Jazz was Creole in origin' but rather that substantial Creole input was essential for the emergence of N.O. jazz.

        Dave














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