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Re: McKinney's Cotton Pickers and "Birmingham Bertha" - addition 5

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  • hans.eekhoff
    Mr. Dellow, this is alas getting personal, because you are too impolite to answer emails which I send you - forcing this discussion to continue in public. That
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 23, 2011
      Mr. Dellow, this is alas getting personal, because you are too impolite to answer emails which I send you - forcing this discussion to continue in public.
      That is fine by me, but everybody will see that you seem unable to accept facts and to understand that Redman's statement about "Birmingham Bertha" is highly detailed while the other statements are vague.
      And there are more valid arguments to establish with certainty that "Bertha" was recorded by MKCP - I shall not repeat them.
      In part 1 of your article you and Haim wrote nothing that is new to the collecting fraternity - and you added a falsehood, namely that "Bertha" is NOT by MKCP.
      Again Mr. Dellow (and please try to grasp this) my arguments are not "claims", let alone "unsupported claims" - they are logical and understanding conclusions from valid evidence.
      You imply that you will maintain, with "new and relevant information" in part 2 that MKCP did NOT record "Bertha".
      The only way you can support that is by calling Redman a liar, to denie all the other facts which have been mentioned and to be completely tin-eared.
      The recipe is to twist the facts (or to ignore them) so they fit your theory.
      It is the usual method that we are used to from your co-author, but I would like to tell you that you will NEVER convince those who just look at the plain facts and use their ears. In short - just about everybody who knows the case.
      And I will make sure that the facts are not buried by the two of you.
      Hans Eekhoff



      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...> wrote:
      >
      > Mr Eekhoff complains that the assignment of McKinney's Cotton Pickers
      > musicians to the Goldkette recordings of "My Blackbirds Are Bluebirds Now"
      > and "Don't Be Like That" is third hand. Mr Eekhoff writes, "Daniel Nevers
      > said that Delaunay said that Don Redman said....."
      >
      > Doesn't Mr Eekhoff understand that the story of "Birmingham Bertha," which
      > he accepts as being 100% accurate, comes from the same source? Supposedly,
      > Redman told Delaunay who told Nevers who told Van Delden …
      >
      > Although he denies it, Eekhoff certainly makes claims in his posts – the
      > major one being that there are inaccuracies in our VJM article. Mr Eekhoff
      > has no information whatsoever about Part 2 of our article, but he claims
      > that "Haim and Dellow, unavoidably, will say [in part 2] that Don Redman is
      > a liar, that Dave Wilborn is incapable of playing in twos, that the alto
      > soloist is not Don Redman , etc. etc."
      >
      > Our advice to Mr Eekhoff is to wait for Part 2 of our article before he
      > makes more unsupported claims.
      >
      >
      > On 23 January 2011 18:20, hans.eekhoff <oriole@...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > "Daniel Nevers said that Delaunay said that Don Redman said....." etc. etc.
      > > I repeat, it is by no means clear what Redman SPECIFICALLY said about any
      > > other title recorded by the Goldkette band, other than "Birmingham Bertha",
      > > about which he IS very detailed and precise. Unless you boldly state that
      > > Redman made that up you have to agree that it is the MKCP on that side; even
      > > if you are completely tin-eared and also think that the same band recorded
      > > "An Old Italian Love Song". Nick Dellow also says that I have made "claims"
      > > that "have already been addressed in Part 2 of our article". However, I have
      > > not made any "claims" at all. What nonsense is that? All I have done is give
      > > solid evidence that MKCP recorded "Birmingham Bertha". How can Messrs. Haim
      > > and Dellow "address", in advance, "claims" which have not been made?
      > > It's all very mysterious and I anxiously await that promised part 2 of the
      > > article in which Haim and Dellow, unavoidably, will say that Don Redman is a
      > > liar, that Dave Wilborn is incapable of playing in twos, that the alto
      > > soloist is not Don Redman but an unknown white musician, same for trombonist
      > > Claude Jones, that they can hear Nat Natoli and that it is one and the same
      > > band that recorded "Birmingham Bertha" as well as "An Old Italian Love
      > > Song".
      > > Sigh......
      > > Hans Eekhoff
      > >
      > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>, Nick
      > > Dellow <nick.dellow@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hans Eekhoff writes, "However, from Nevers' letter it is by no means
      > > clear
      > > > what Redman himself exactly said about these sides."
      > > >
      > > > The section concerning "My Blackbirds Are Bluebirds Now" and "Don't Be
      > > Like
      > > > That" in Daniel Nevers' letter to Ate Van Delden is crystal clear. In it,
      > > > Daniel Nevers reports unequivocally that Don Redman told Charles Delaunay
      > > > that he and other members of McKinney's Cotton Pickers were on "My
      > > > Blackbirds Are Bluebirds Now" and "Don't Be Like That". It is all there
      > > in
      > > > black and white (see my previous post).
      > > >
      > > > Other claims in Hans Eekhoff's posts have already been addressed in Part
      > > 2
      > > > of our article, in which we present new and relevant information in
      > > > considerable detail. Part 2 will be published in the next edition of VJM
      > > > magazine.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Nick
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On 23 January 2011 09:53, hans.eekhoff <oriole@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Dellow, Haim and Berresford (the latter is the editor of VJM) have not
      > > > > responded to private emails to them in which I pointed out the error in
      > > > > their article, but since Dellow now reacts here I will do the same;
      > > > > apparently I now have his attention.
      > > > > Nick Dellow and Albert Haim say that I have quoted selectively from
      > > Never's
      > > > > letter to Ate van Delden. That is absolutely true and I did it for a
      > > good
      > > > > reason. I have only quoted the bit about "Birmingham Bertha" because
      > > that is
      > > > > the only side which is still disputed.
      > > > > Dellow/Haim may think that their article contains something new about
      > > the
      > > > > relation Goldkette/MCKP but that is not the case.
      > > > > Apart from on "Birmingham Bertha" no MCKP members participated in any
      > > > > recordings labelled as by "Jean Goldkette and his Orchestra". This has
      > > been
      > > > > well known and accepted for years and is absolutely no news. On the
      > > Timeless
      > > > > CD "Jean Goldkette Bands 1924-1929" issued in 2003, we (Ate van Delden,
      > > John
      > > > > R.T. Davies and I) did much discussing, listening and thorough research
      > > into
      > > > > the personnel of the later Goldkette Orchestra and we found no evidence
      > > that
      > > > > any MCKP members took part on these sides - except for "Birmingham
      > > Bertha".
      > > > > This is all reflected in Ate van Delden's liner notes and in the
      > > > > discography. If Don Reman made any specific suggestions to the
      > > contrary, we
      > > > > believe that he was wrong. However, from Nevers' letter it is by no
      > > means
      > > > > clear what Redman himself exactly said about these sides. The ONLY side
      > > he
      > > > > specifically mentions, in great detail, is "Birmingham Bertha" and I
      > > see no
      > > > > reason to doubt Redman's very vivid recollection of the occasion.
      > > Again, why
      > > > > would he have made it all up?
      > > > > Furthermore, close listening reveals the presence of recognizable MCKP
      > > > > members (most prominently Redman himself and Claude Jones), as was also
      > > > > noted by about a dozen experienced collectors at Phil Pospychala's Bix
      > > Bash
      > > > > in Racine last year. After thorough listening and analyzing the vote
      > > was
      > > > > unanimous in favor of MCKP, even though I only told the audience AFTER
      > > the
      > > > > voting about Redman's report. The fact that a hired violinist and
      > > vocalist
      > > > > as well as Harold Stokes' accordeon are also present and that banjoist
      > > Dave
      > > > > Wilborn plays mostly in twos rather than in fours did not confuse the
      > > > > gathering (as it apparently has done Dellow and Haim).
      > > > > But Nick Dellow is selective himself - for he ignores my mentioning of
      > > the
      > > > > fact that later that day three more titles were recorded, this time by
      > > the
      > > > > real Goldkette band who had arrived later, of which "An Old Italian
      > > Love
      > > > > Song" was also issued. That this is an entirely different band is so
      > > obvious
      > > > > even to the completely tin-eared that this alone settles the argument.
      > > > > Hans Eekhoff
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com><RedHotJazz%
      > > 40yahoogroups.com>, Nick
      > > > > Dellow <nick.dellow@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The information in Daniel Nevers' letter as well as a considerable
      > > amount
      > > > > of
      > > > > > new and relevant material are discussed in detail in Part Two of the
      > > > > article
      > > > > > "Jean Goldkette's Post-Bix Recordings: the Don Redman Arrangements",
      > > > > which
      > > > > > will be published in the next issue (Spring 2011) of VJM magazine.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > All I and my co-author Albert Haim would like to add at this point in
      > > > > time
      > > > > > is that Hans Eekhoff selectively quotes from Daniel Nevers' letter to
      > > Ate
      > > > > > Van Delden. On 15 March 2010, Ate kindly sent me a copy of Daniel
      > > Nevers'
      > > > > > letter dated 12 February 2003. At that time in 2003, Ate was
      > > preparing
      > > > > his
      > > > > > liner notes for the Timeless CD "The Jean Goldkette Bands 1924-1929".
      > > > > >
      > > > > > In his letter of 12 February 2003 to Ate Van Delden, in addition to
      > > > > comments
      > > > > > about "Birmingham Bertha," Daniel Nevers states that in the same
      > > > > interview
      > > > > > with Charles Delaunay, Don Redman said that he and other members of
      > > > > > McKinney's Cotton Pickers were on Jean Goldkette's "My Blackbirds Are
      > > > > > Bluebirds Now" and "Don't Be Like That" (Victor 21805). Hans Eekhoff
      > > cuts
      > > > > > this part of Daniel Nevers' letter out in his posting after (- - -).
      > > The
      > > > > > original French of the omitted part is as follows:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "Il lui a posé des questions sur ses propres disques, sur ceux avec
      > > > > Fletcher
      > > > > > et aussi sur ceux des MKCP. Don lui a fourni des informations et lui
      > > a
      > > > > > signalé que certains disques de Jean Goldkette chez Victor étaient en
      > > > > > réalité par les MKCP - ou, du moins, qu'il y avait dans quelques uns
      > > de
      > > > > ces
      > > > > > disques plusieurs membres des MKCP, mélangés avec les musiciens
      > > (blancs)
      > > > > de
      > > > > > Goldkette. Charles lui a alors fait écouter des Goldkette de 1928-29
      > > et
      > > > > Don
      > > > > > a identifié ceux dont j'ai cité les noms dans le double RCA "Jazz
      > > > > Tribune" ,
      > > > > > sur "My Blackbirds..." et "Don't Be Like That".
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Specifically, this part of Daniel Nevers' letter says (translated
      > > from
      > > > > > French):
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "He [Delaunay] asked Don Redman about his own records, those with
      > > > > Fletcher
      > > > > > [Henderson] and also those of the MKCP. Don provided some information
      > > and
      > > > > > highlighted that some records by Jean Goldkette for Victor were
      > > actually
      > > > > by
      > > > > > MKCP - or at least, there were on some of these recordings several
      > > > > members
      > > > > > of MKCP mixed with the musicians (white) of the Goldkette orchestra.
      > > > > Charles
      > > > > > then made him listen to Goldkette recordings made in 1928-29 and Don
      > > > > > identified those whose names I have mentioned in the double RCA "Jazz
      > > > > > Tribune", on "My Blackbirds ...." and "Don't Be Like That".
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The Timeless CD liner notes, however, state: "Two hot Goldkette
      > > titles
      > > > > > resulted, 'My Blackbirds Are Bluebirds Now' and 'Don't Be Like That'
      > > of
      > > > > > which this CD features two takes each. In spite of varied opinions,
      > > we
      > > > > also
      > > > > > believe that this session was recorded by the Goldkette band and that
      > > > > > similarities between these recordings and those of McKinney's Cotton
      > > > > Pickers
      > > > > > are only due to Don Redman's arrangements and his rehearsing the
      > > > > orchestra."
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "Birmingham Bertha" is also a Don Redman arrangement. It is
      > > noteworthy
      > > > > that
      > > > > > Daniel Nevers' report of Don Redman's identification of the musicians
      > > is
      > > > > > adopted in the Timeless CD for "Birmingham Bertha" but not for "My
      > > > > > Blackbirds Are Bluebirds Now" and "Don't Be Like That."
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Nick
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > On 22 January 2011 10:13, hans.eekhoff <oriole@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I have meanwhile found the source for Redman's statement. It comes,
      > > via
      > > > > > > Daniel Nevers, from the famous French jazz researcher, critic and
      > > > > writer
      > > > > > > Charles Delaunay, who was then preparing the new edition of his New
      > > Hot
      > > > > > > Discography (although he does not list these sides in the book).
      > > > > > > In a letter to Ate van Delden, dated 12 February 2003, Nevers
      > > writes:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > "l'information vient de Charles Delaunay. En 1946 quand il
      > > préparait
      > > > > > > la nouvelle édition de sa discographie, il a pu rencontrer á Paris
      > > > > > > Don Redman qui dirigeait alors le premier big band noir venu en
      > > Europe
      > > > > > > aprés la guerre. Il lui a posé des questions sur ses propres
      > > > > > > disques, sur ceux avec Fletcher et aussi sur ceux des MKCP.
      > > > > > > Don lui a fourni de information (---) et il a précisé que sur
      > > > > > > "Birmingham Bertha" c'était même l'orchestre complet des MCKP qui
      > > > > > > jouait et a ajouté qu'il y avait eu un ou deux autres morceaux
      > > > > > > enregistrés au cours de la même session (Redman was absolutely
      > > > > > > right; the filecard gives indeed one more title: "I'm Refer'n Just
      > > To
      > > > > > > Her'n Me" which was rejected - HE).
      > > > > > > D'apres lui c'est l'orchestre régulier de Goldkette qui devait
      > > > > > > enregistrer ces morceaux dont lui, Redman, avait écrit les
      > > > > > > arrangements. Mais en venant de Detroit á Chicago le car a eu une
      > > > > > > panne. Don et les MCKP étaient, eux, á Chicago. On leur a donc
      > > > > > > téléphoné pour qu'ils remplacent les musiciens habituels. Le
      > > > > > > seul vrai Goldkette man, dans ce titre, est l'accordéoniste Harold
      > > > > > > Stokes: il était venu a Chicago dans sa voiture personelle et a
      > > donc
      > > > > > > pu participer a la session".
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > On top of the fact that aural evidence makes it abundantly clear
      > > that
      > > > > on
      > > > > > > "Birmingham Bertha" it is indeed MKCP and not the Goldkette band,
      > > there
      > > > > > > is no reason to doubt Redman's vivid and highly detailed
      > > recollection
      > > > > of
      > > > > > > the occasion. Why would he make it up?
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Furthermore, the Goldkette band DID arrive in the studio later that
      > > day
      > > > > > > and recorded three more songs of which "An Old Italian Love Song"
      > > was
      > > > > > > issued. This is clearly a different band - no question about it.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Hans Eekhoff
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com><RedHotJazz%
      > > 40yahoogroups.com><RedHotJazz%
      > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
      > > > > > > "hans.eekhoff" <oriole@> wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > In an article on the relation between the Goldkette Band and
      > > > > > > McKinney's Cotton Pickers, which has just appeared in VJM magazine
      > > and
      > > > > > > was written by Nick Dellow and Albert Haim, the authors sadly
      > > uphold
      > > > > the
      > > > > > > myth that "Birmingham Bertha", recorded for Victor and released as
      > > by
      > > > > > > the Goldkette band on Victor 22077, was indeed played entirely by
      > > the
      > > > > > > Jean Goldkette Orchestra and that no musicians
      > > > > > > > from McKinney's Cotton Pickers were involved, in spite of the
      > > facts
      > > > > > > that it sounds clearly like the Cotton Pickers and that in an
      > > interview
      > > > > > > shortly after the war, Don Redman, who also wrote the arrangement,
      > > > > > > vividly remembered in great detail that he was called at the
      > > eleventh
      > > > > > > hour to record "Birmingham Bertha" with the Cotton Pickers because
      > > the
      > > > > > > Goldkette band had broken down with their
      > > > > > > > bus coming back from a performance. Only accordeonist Harold
      > > Stokes
      > > > > > > made it to the studio because he had travelled in his own car.
      > > > > > > > The extra violinists and vocalist Kay Palmer were not regular
      > > > > > > Goldkette members but had been hired for this session - hence their
      > > > > > > presence.
      > > > > > > > I see no reason to assume that Redman made up this highly
      > > detailed
      > > > > > > story. The Goldkette band DID arrive later that day and recorded 3
      > > > > > > titles of which "An Old Italian Love Song" was issued. This is
      > > clearly
      > > > > a
      > > > > > > different band from the one that recorded "Bertha" earlier that
      > > day.
      > > > > > > > These are indisputable facts and to me and all my collecting
      > > friends
      > > > > > > there is no doubt whatsoever that it is mainly the Cotton Pickers
      > > who
      > > > > > > recorded "Birmingham Bertha". Also some of the individual musicians
      > > on
      > > > > > > this side can easily be recognized as members of the Cotton
      > > Pickers.
      > > > > > > > I do not have the music nor the discographies here at hand so I
      > > can't
      > > > > > > be more specific but I'm sure you'll hear it too.
      > > > > > > > On top of that - anybody who thinks that it is the same band who
      > > > > > > recorded "Birmingham Bertha" and "An old Italian Love Song" has a
      > > big
      > > > > > > hearing problem!
      > > > > > > > Last year at the Bix Bash in Racine Phil Pospychala put the
      > > question
      > > > > > > to a dozen hardened collectors and their verdict (based only on
      > > hearing
      > > > > > > the side - I only told Redman's story after the voting) was
      > > unanimous
      > > > > in
      > > > > > > favour of the Cotton Pickers.
      > > > > > > > Ate van Delden wrote all this years ago in his liner notes for
      > > the
      > > > > > > Timeless CD - but again, I do not know the exact details right now
      > > as I
      > > > > > > don't have the CD on hand here.
      > > > > > > > Perhaps somebody can provide Redman's exact words?
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • patrice.champarou@free.fr
      I suspected that something nasty might happen when I saw the beginning of this thread, unfortunately it did. I do not think that a discussion involving
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 23, 2011
        I suspected that something nasty might happen when I saw the beginning of
        this thread, unfortunately it did.

        I do not think that a discussion involving previous ones, as well as private
        mails, and ending up with members addressing each other in the third person,
        is quite relevant here, or even interesting (please Michael correct me if
        you think I'm wrong).

        If you really need to carry on, maybe you could do it privateley, or take it
        back where I guess it started.
        Please don't force me to close the group's archives, erase previous
        messages, and put you both under moderation.

        And also read the group's rules, no-one needs to read hundreds of lines of
        quotes again and again.

        Patrice - redhotjazz-owner@yahoogroups.com
      • hans.eekhoff
        And I mentioned it myself in my previous posting - I tried to have this discussion in private (it did not start there). Anyway, the main point should be clear
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 23, 2011
          And I mentioned it myself in my previous posting - I tried to have this discussion in private (it did not start there).
          Anyway, the main point should be clear for those who are interested in the matter itself.
          My apologies - I will not carry on about it.
          Hans Eekhoff


          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, <patrice.champarou@...> wrote:
          >
          > I suspected that something nasty might happen when I saw the beginning of
          > this thread, unfortunately it did.
          >
          > I do not think that a discussion involving previous ones, as well as private
          > mails, and ending up with members addressing each other in the third person,
          > is quite relevant here, or even interesting (please Michael correct me if
          > you think I'm wrong).
          >
          > If you really need to carry on, maybe you could do it privateley, or take it
          > back where I guess it started.
          > Please don't force me to close the group's archives, erase previous
          > messages, and put you both under moderation.
          >
          > And also read the group's rules, no-one needs to read hundreds of lines of
          > quotes again and again.
          >
          > Patrice - redhotjazz-owner@yahoogroups.com
          >
        • patrice.champarou@free.fr
          Maybe I should insist that I do not intend to stop or ban the thread in itself, which is an interesting one. Otherwise, I would have erased the whole of it by
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 24, 2011
            Maybe I should insist that I do not intend to stop or ban the thread in
            itself, which is an interesting one.
            Otherwise, I would have erased the whole of it by now...
            No, what does not fit the mood and aim of this group is reference to old
            quarrels which occured somewhere else, or to elements of the discussion
            which are probably familiar to a couple of former protagonists, but far too
            elliptic for most readers, who might mostly retain an obviously unfriendly
            attitude (and no, I am not supposed to decide who started it, I just do not
            want this here ;-)).

            And that's about all, the discussion can carry on with the topic initially
            called McKinney's Cotton Pickers and "Birmingham Bertha", without the
            unrequested mention of a personal "addition" in the subject line, which
            breaks the thread and lets everyone think this is by no means an open,
            collective discussion (see group's rules there again, they also have
            technical reasons which I already explained, a Yahoo group is not a forum).

            Best,

            Patrice

            -----Message d'origine-----
            From: hans.eekhoff
            Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 8:01 AM
            To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [RedHotJazz] I fully agree

            And I mentioned it myself in my previous posting - I tried to have this
            discussion in private (it did not start there).
            Anyway, the main point should be clear for those who are interested in the
            matter itself.
            My apologies - I will not carry on about it.
            Hans Eekhoff
          • David Brown
            I return to the original rather provocative header. I agree Patrice that aggression and insult have no place in the discussion of music but I think the
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 24, 2011
              I return to the original rather provocative header.

              I agree Patrice that aggression and insult have no place in the discussion
              of music but I think the identification of these sides is important as also
              is the fact that opinion has been divided on these forever -- 'Jazz
              Directory' of 1951 has this already 'as having long been a subject of
              controversy among collectors'.

              The source for this controversy must pre-date Redman's 1946 remarks for it
              appears he was specifically questioned on this issue. Redman's evidence is
              indeed third hand report of a musician's memory. But if I read it correctly
              he states that he and some other MKCPickers were on 'My Blackbirds' and
              'Don't Be Like That' and that MKCP were complete on 'Birmingham Bertha'.

              I have just listened and cannot find any immediate aural anomalies to
              contradict Redman but is it possible that new evidence will appear with the
              next part of the VJM article ?

              More importantly perhaps is what the fact that these sides have been in
              dispute for over 70 years has to say for racial theories of jazz history.

              Dave



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • hans.eekhoff
              I very much agree with Dave that it is an important issue. Again I would again like to point out the great detail with which Redman described the occasion -
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 24, 2011
                I very much agree with Dave that it is an important issue. Again I would again like to point out the great detail with which Redman described the occasion - hardly likely that he made it all up. Besides, when he told the story is wasn't all that long after it happened!
                But, more importantly, the Goldkette band DID record later that day and "An Old Italian Love Song" was issued.
                Here is a link to the tune:

                http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/goldkette/oldital.ram

                To my ears this is not the same band as the one that recorded "Bertha" earlier that day - what do you think?

                Hans Eekhoff


                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                >
                > I return to the original rather provocative header.
                >
                > I agree Patrice that aggression and insult have no place in the discussion
                > of music but I think the identification of these sides is important as also
                > is the fact that opinion has been divided on these forever -- 'Jazz
                > Directory' of 1951 has this already 'as having long been a subject of
                > controversy among collectors'.
                >
                > The source for this controversy must pre-date Redman's 1946 remarks for it
                > appears he was specifically questioned on this issue. Redman's evidence is
                > indeed third hand report of a musician's memory. But if I read it correctly
                > he states that he and some other MKCPickers were on 'My Blackbirds' and
                > 'Don't Be Like That' and that MKCP were complete on 'Birmingham Bertha'.
                >
                > I have just listened and cannot find any immediate aural anomalies to
                > contradict Redman but is it possible that new evidence will appear with the
                > next part of the VJM article ?
                >
                > More importantly perhaps is what the fact that these sides have been in
                > dispute for over 70 years has to say for racial theories of jazz history.
                >
                > Dave
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • David Weiner
                Of course, the arrangements couldn t be more different! But the distinctive sound of Nat Natoli s nanny-goat vibrato leading the trumpet section on Italian
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 24, 2011
                  Of course, the arrangements couldn't be more different! But the distinctive
                  sound of Nat Natoli's "nanny-goat" vibrato leading the trumpet section on
                  "Italian" is not present on "Bertha," for what it's worth.

                  Dave Weiner

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of hans.eekhoff
                  Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 11:57 AM
                  To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Inaccuracies in VJM article on the Goldkette band
                  and McKinney's Cotton Pickers

                  I very much agree with Dave that it is an important issue. Again I would
                  again like to point out the great detail with which Redman described the
                  occasion - hardly likely that he made it all up. Besides, when he told the
                  story is wasn't all that long after it happened!
                  But, more importantly, the Goldkette band DID record later that day and "An
                  Old Italian Love Song" was issued.
                  Here is a link to the tune:

                  http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/goldkette/oldital.ram

                  To my ears this is not the same band as the one that recorded "Bertha"
                  earlier that day - what do you think?

                  Hans Eekhoff


                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I return to the original rather provocative header.
                  >
                  > I agree Patrice that aggression and insult have no place in the discussion
                  > of music but I think the identification of these sides is important as
                  also
                  > is the fact that opinion has been divided on these forever -- 'Jazz
                  > Directory' of 1951 has this already 'as having long been a subject of
                  > controversy among collectors'.
                  >
                  > The source for this controversy must pre-date Redman's 1946 remarks for it
                  > appears he was specifically questioned on this issue. Redman's evidence is
                  > indeed third hand report of a musician's memory. But if I read it
                  correctly
                  > he states that he and some other MKCPickers were on 'My Blackbirds' and
                  > 'Don't Be Like That' and that MKCP were complete on 'Birmingham Bertha'.
                  >
                  > I have just listened and cannot find any immediate aural anomalies to
                  > contradict Redman but is it possible that new evidence will appear with
                  the
                  > next part of the VJM article ?
                  >
                  > More importantly perhaps is what the fact that these sides have been in
                  > dispute for over 70 years has to say for racial theories of jazz history.
                  >
                  > Dave
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >




                  ------------------------------------

                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Howard Rye
                  ... Not really, Dave, just a little local difficulty in their application. Traditions don¹t cease to exist because they overlap at times. No one doubts that
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 24, 2011
                    on 24/01/2011 15:32, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > More importantly perhaps is what the fact that these sides have been in
                    > dispute for over 70 years has to say for racial theories of jazz history.
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    Not really, Dave, just a little local difficulty in their application.
                    Traditions don¹t cease to exist because they overlap at times.

                    No one doubts that there are separate white and black traditions in the
                    string band music of the American South, but there are dozens of records
                    (many more than in jazz) which taken in isolation could hardly be assigned
                    with confidence to one tradition or the other, though there are not many
                    bands which recorded any significant number of sides where it is not obvious
                    which tradition they belong to. This comes about for a lot of reasons, black
                    bands played in white styles to extract change from white passers by, white
                    bands played in black styles when they wanted to sound down and dirty,
                    people copied records or performances which particularly appealed to them,
                    and many more.

                    You could perfectly well substitute jazz in the above. The Goldkette and
                    McKinney bands are easy to distinguish ninety per cent of the time (well 98%
                    actually) and the differences are due in part to their different cultural
                    heritages. The occasions when perhaps the Goldkette band played a Don Redman
                    arrangement in the McKinney manner, or McKinney¹s played a Goldkette
                    arrangement because the audience they were playing for asked for it, or
                    whatever, isn¹t that significant.

                    I do not want to enter the main controversy, nor will I until I find out
                    what Don Redman actually said, rather than what Daniel Nevers reported that
                    Charles Delaunay said he said. I have done a lot of looking for this, and so
                    has Nick Dellow to my certain knowledge, and neither of us has any axe to
                    grind, which is not true of Delaunay or Nevers.

                    I¹m afraid I have provisionally concluded that Delaunay conveniently took
                    this information to the grave. But his papers are in the Bibliothèque
                    Nationale, where they are not very accessible to anyone other than French
                    academics. Someone could go and look at them. Maybe the actual interview
                    transcript there.


                    >




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • JamesJazz
                    May I introduce myself. My name is Jim Gallert. Lars Bjorn and I wrote Before Motown: A History of Jazz in Detroit, 1920-1960. This discussion is exactly
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 24, 2011
                      May I introduce myself. My name is Jim Gallert. Lars Bjorn and I wrote "Before Motown: A History of Jazz in Detroit, 1920-1960."
                      This discussion is exactly what I hoped to find on this list - serious jazz research folks presenting information and in some cases disagreeing about stuff. I love the Cotton Pickers.
                      I don't have any evidence contrary to Redman's comments that "Birm Bert" is a McKinney's recording. I listened to it (and all of the McK recs) with David Hutson & Dave Wilborn many years ago. I don't recall Dave's comments (if any) about this tune but I am pretty certain I would recall any revelation about it not being a Mck band.
                      Dave was pretty sharp and didn't embellish stories once he told them, at least to me. I will review the interviews that Lars and I did with Dave (separate interviews) and will report to the group should any relevant comments surface.

                      Dave was also a really sweet man, and had a million off-color jokes gleaned from his years as a popular MC in various Detroit clubs (post-McKinney). He later sang with the New McKinney's Cotton Pickers, but he'd been away from his strings too long and couldn't recapture his rhythm, so a vocalist he remained. Dave Wilborn was a gentle man.

                      Jim Gallert
                      www.detroitmusichistory.com
                      www.jazzstage.us

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "patrice champarou" <patrice.champarou@...>
                      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 6:21:47 AM
                      Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] I fully agree

                       




                      Maybe I should insist that I do not intend to stop or ban the thread in
                      itself, which is an interesting one.
                      Otherwise, I would have erased the whole of it by now...
                      No, what does not fit the mood and aim of this group is reference to old
                      quarrels which occured somewhere else, or to elements of the discussion
                      which are probably familiar to a couple of former protagonists, but far too
                      elliptic for most readers, who might mostly retain an obviously unfriendly
                      attitude (and no, I am not supposed to decide who started it, I just do not
                      want this here ;-)).

                      And that's about all, the discussion can carry on with the topic initially
                      called McKinney's Cotton Pickers and "Birmingham Bertha", without the
                      unrequested mention of a personal "addition" in the subject line, which
                      breaks the thread and lets everyone think this is by no means an open,
                      collective discussion (see group's rules there again, they also have
                      technical reasons which I already explained, a Yahoo group is not a forum).

                      Best,

                      Patrice

                      -----Message d'origine-----
                      From: hans.eekhoff
                      Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 8:01 AM
                      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [RedHotJazz] I fully agree

                      And I mentioned it myself in my previous posting - I tried to have this
                      discussion in private (it did not start there).
                      Anyway, the main point should be clear for those who are interested in the
                      matter itself.
                      My apologies - I will not carry on about it.
                      Hans Eekhoff
                    • David Brown
                      Hello Howard The history of early jazz big band is indeed not a black & white issue. Sudhalter makes, although does not prove, a case for Redman, the
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 25, 2011
                        Hello Howard

                        The history of early jazz big band is indeed not a black & white issue.

                        Sudhalter makes, although does not prove, a case for Redman, the pre-eminent
                        early black arranger and supposed father of big band style, being influenced
                        by, and working within, the style of earlier white arrangers, notably Ferde
                        Grofé. Challis arranged for Henderson. Does the confusion between Goldkette
                        and MKCP not suggest that the deciding factor was more the arrangement than
                        the race of the musicians ?

                        Bose's solo on 'My Blackbirds' was previously attributed to Nesbitt. Steve
                        Brown was a dominant figure among bassists and influenced black and white.

                        As the Swing Era progressed, black influence on white swing bands increased.
                        Almost all the big white swing bands used black arrangers. I struggle to
                        find an exception. Anybody ? I exclude Miller from swing bands. Am I right ?
                        Also the token blacks in white bands.

                        Any later examples of white arrangers working for black bands ?

                        Dave



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Howard Rye
                        on 25/01/2011 09:28, David Brown at johnhaleysims@yahoo.co.uk asks: ³ Does the confusion between Goldkette and MKCP not suggest that the deciding factor was
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 25, 2011
                          on 25/01/2011 09:28, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... asks:

                          ³ Does the confusion between Goldkette and MKCP not suggest that the
                          deciding factor was more the arrangement than
                          the race of the musicians ?²

                          I¹m sure it has nothing to do with anybody¹s colour, but this is the wrong
                          question, unless you suppose that Redman¹s arranging style owes nothing to
                          his cultural inheritance, and equally that the arranging styles of
                          Goldkette¹s arrangers owe nothing to theirs.

                          I would be amazed if Redman and Challis did not listen to one another¹s
                          work, and if they did not both take note of what Grofé and people even
                          further into the straight music-world were doing. I would also expect that
                          both would be aware of African-American arrangers like William Grant Still,
                          Will Vodery, and especially Will Marion Cook, who may well be the ultimate
                          father of all jazz arranging.

                          Who influenced them is interesting but it is more interesting to me what use
                          they made of the influence and how that was determined by various factors in
                          their musical background.

                          I suggested myself that the playing of one another¹s arrangements may be the
                          source of any confusion there is between the Goldkette band and MKCP. In
                          other words they may have been deliberately imitating one another!

                          What actual evidence is there that Steve Brown influenced African-American
                          bass players, bearing in mind that Bill Johnson, the oldest jazzman on
                          record, and presumptively the inventor (though I don¹t suppose for a moment
                          he came from nowhere either) of slap-bass playing, would have been a much
                          more accessible model in a segregated world? There is a wonderful anthology
                          compiled by Dick Spottswood on Dust To Digital (How Low Can You Go?) DTD-04
                          which tends to demonstrate this point.

                          Bass history is complicated by the fact that it was almost impossible to
                          record pizzicato bass before the invention of the microphone. John R.T.
                          Davies used to say that a bass player was ³present only in spirit² when he
                          felt that the player must have been in the studio because musicians you
                          could hear were apparently reacting to his playing! Slap bass therefore
                          bursts on to the recording scene fully formed.


                          >
                          >


                          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                          howard@...
                          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • hans.eekhoff
                          Hello Jim, Yes you re absolutely right, there is no single reason to assume that Redman was making it all up - quite the contrary. Aural evidence, also
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 25, 2011
                            Hello Jim,
                            Yes you're absolutely right, there is no single reason to assume that Redman was making it all up - quite the contrary.
                            Aural evidence, also comparison with "An Old Italian Love Song", says enough.
                            I too met (and played with) Dave Wilborn but didn't think of playing this particular side for him - I wasn't to know that so many years later it would become such an issue!
                            But I agree that Dave was not senile or anything - just a sweet guy and one helluva banjo player. I wish that some of the banjoists today stuck to the rhythm like Dave did in the MKCP days!
                            Hans Eekhoff


                            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, JamesJazz <jamesjazz@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > May I introduce myself. My name is Jim Gallert. Lars Bjorn and I wrote "Before Motown: A History of Jazz in Detroit, 1920-1960."
                            > This discussion is exactly what I hoped to find on this list - serious jazz research folks presenting information and in some cases disagreeing about stuff. I love the Cotton Pickers.
                            > I don't have any evidence contrary to Redman's comments that "Birm Bert" is a McKinney's recording. I listened to it (and all of the McK recs) with David Hutson & Dave Wilborn many years ago. I don't recall Dave's comments (if any) about this tune but I am pretty certain I would recall any revelation about it not being a Mck band.
                            > Dave was pretty sharp and didn't embellish stories once he told them, at least to me. I will review the interviews that Lars and I did with Dave (separate interviews) and will report to the group should any relevant comments surface.
                            >
                            > Dave was also a really sweet man, and had a million off-color jokes gleaned from his years as a popular MC in various Detroit clubs (post-McKinney). He later sang with the New McKinney's Cotton Pickers, but he'd been away from his strings too long and couldn't recapture his rhythm, so a vocalist he remained. Dave Wilborn was a gentle man.
                            >
                            > Jim Gallert
                            > www.detroitmusichistory.com
                            > www.jazzstage.us
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "patrice champarou" <patrice.champarou@...>
                            > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 6:21:47 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] I fully agree
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Maybe I should insist that I do not intend to stop or ban the thread in
                            > itself, which is an interesting one.
                            > Otherwise, I would have erased the whole of it by now...
                            > No, what does not fit the mood and aim of this group is reference to old
                            > quarrels which occured somewhere else, or to elements of the discussion
                            > which are probably familiar to a couple of former protagonists, but far too
                            > elliptic for most readers, who might mostly retain an obviously unfriendly
                            > attitude (and no, I am not supposed to decide who started it, I just do not
                            > want this here ;-)).
                            >
                            > And that's about all, the discussion can carry on with the topic initially
                            > called McKinney's Cotton Pickers and "Birmingham Bertha", without the
                            > unrequested mention of a personal "addition" in the subject line, which
                            > breaks the thread and lets everyone think this is by no means an open,
                            > collective discussion (see group's rules there again, they also have
                            > technical reasons which I already explained, a Yahoo group is not a forum).
                            >
                            > Best,
                            >
                            > Patrice
                            >
                            > -----Message d'origine-----
                            > From: hans.eekhoff
                            > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 8:01 AM
                            > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [RedHotJazz] I fully agree
                            >
                            > And I mentioned it myself in my previous posting - I tried to have this
                            > discussion in private (it did not start there).
                            > Anyway, the main point should be clear for those who are interested in the
                            > matter itself.
                            > My apologies - I will not carry on about it.
                            > Hans Eekhoff
                            >
                          • Michael Rader
                            Coming back to this thread for the moment, John Chilton s McKinney s Music has excerpts from a 1951 interview with Sterling Bose, who said The bands would
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 27, 2011
                              Coming back to this thread for the moment, John Chilton's "McKinney's Music" has excerpts from a 1951 interview with Sterling Bose, who said "The bands would sometimes trade arrangements to relieve the monotony of playing the same scores night after night". Bose went on to say that "My Blackbirds are Bluebirds Now", as recorded by Goldkette on Victor was actually a McKinney score. Bose claimed that the similarity of the two bands was greater in person than on records, because in the studios special pains were taken to keep the styles distinct". (Chilton 1978, p. 29, the interview was porinted in the Record Changer of November 1951).
                              "Birmingham Bertha" is not mentioned at all in Chilton's booklet or the discography by Chilton, John RT Davies and Laurie Wright published in Storyville Nos 32 and 32. For what it's worth, I think Bertha sounds like a Cotton Pickers side, but I might well be mistaken if what Bose said was true.

                              Michael Rader
                              ___________________________________________________________
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