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Re: [RedHotJazz] Anyone know why the main site is down?

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  • Richard Lund
    First of all: Please do NOT hit the Delete button :-) Second, I was able to get to the site today (just now), so at least it is not completely down... But it
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 2, 2010
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      First of all:
      Please do NOT hit the Delete button :-)

      Second, I was able to get to the site today (just now), so at least it
      is not completely down...

      But it is slow and seems a little unreliable right now...
      This thread alarmed be to the degree that I am now attempting to
      download the entire site just to have an archive should the worst
      happen. So far I am not having too much luck (timeouts and other
      errors), but I'll keep trying. This great collection must be preserved!


      On 12/2/2010 4:02 AM, patrice.champarou@... wrote:
      >
      > -----Message d'origine-----
      > From: robbi496
      > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 9:34 AM
      > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Anyone know why the main site is down?
      >
      > > I was not able to get to the www.redhotjazz.com site tonite?? Anyone
      > know
      > > why??
      >
      > I someone does, I wish he told me as well, some people here or elsewhere
      > know more than what they wish to tell.
      >
      > I emailed an Alan Helffrich, supposed to be the administrative/technical
      > contact of the RHJ website, on the 3rd of November.
      >
      > His instant, laconic reply was : "I've forwarded you request to Scott".
      >
      > The only new event since then is that the hosting of the website has been
      > renewed for a year (if this is what I should understand from "Record
      > expires
      > on 10-Dec-2011")
      >
      > No further comment, I've ran out maddening hypothesis. One thing is
      > sure : I
      > persuaded Scott to accept full ownership of this Yahoo group shortly
      > after I
      > created it in 2004, although I knew he did not want to be in charge of
      > anything, but just in case something happened to me. So if his silence
      > has
      > anything to do with the way Michael or, more likely, myself handled a
      > couple of problems years ago, I personnally don't mind letting anyone
      > else
      > run it. Or even pressing the "delete group" button once and for all,
      > which
      > takes only half a second.
      >
      > Patrice - paranoid, but that you already know ;-)
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • bernice joffe
      has the owner decided to disband? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 2, 2010
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        has the owner decided to disband?

        > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        > From: rlund@...
        > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 19:27:50 -0600
        > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Anyone know why the main site is down?
        >
        > First of all:
        > Please do NOT hit the Delete button :-)
        >
        > Second, I was able to get to the site today (just now), so at least it
        > is not completely down...
        >
        > But it is slow and seems a little unreliable right now...
        > This thread alarmed be to the degree that I am now attempting to
        > download the entire site just to have an archive should the worst
        > happen. So far I am not having too much luck (timeouts and other
        > errors), but I'll keep trying. This great collection must be preserved!
        >
        >
        > On 12/2/2010 4:02 AM, patrice.champarou@... wrote:
        > >
        > > -----Message d'origine-----
        > > From: robbi496
        > > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 9:34 AM
        > > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Anyone know why the main site is down?
        > >
        > > > I was not able to get to the www.redhotjazz.com site tonite?? Anyone
        > > know
        > > > why??
        > >
        > > I someone does, I wish he told me as well, some people here or elsewhere
        > > know more than what they wish to tell.
        > >
        > > I emailed an Alan Helffrich, supposed to be the administrative/technical
        > > contact of the RHJ website, on the 3rd of November.
        > >
        > > His instant, laconic reply was : "I've forwarded you request to Scott".
        > >
        > > The only new event since then is that the hosting of the website has been
        > > renewed for a year (if this is what I should understand from "Record
        > > expires
        > > on 10-Dec-2011")
        > >
        > > No further comment, I've ran out maddening hypothesis. One thing is
        > > sure : I
        > > persuaded Scott to accept full ownership of this Yahoo group shortly
        > > after I
        > > created it in 2004, although I knew he did not want to be in charge of
        > > anything, but just in case something happened to me. So if his silence
        > > has
        > > anything to do with the way Michael or, more likely, myself handled a
        > > couple of problems years ago, I personnally don't mind letting anyone
        > > else
        > > run it. Or even pressing the "delete group" button once and for all,
        > > which
        > > takes only half a second.
        > >
        > > Patrice - paranoid, but that you already know ;-)
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • patrice.champarou@free.fr
        Sorry for the tecchy discussion here, but Richard, just to save you and anyone else a lot of disappointment : you *can* download the whole site, but you ll
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 3, 2010
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          Sorry for the tecchy discussion here, but Richard, just to save you and
          anyone else a lot of disappointment :
          you *can* download the whole site, but you'll only get the pages, not the
          soundfiles which are stored in
          a protected folder, and "called" by separate streaming files (all in the
          "songs" folder).
          These are not the songs themselves, but .ram files, so a backup of the site
          on your computer won't work.
          Unless, of course, you have enough time on your side to record thousands of
          samples, convert, rename and reorganize them into your own folders, and
          rewrite all links in each of the html pages. I am too busy/lazy to make an
          estimation of the time it would take...

          I already thought of these problems when Scott was considering moving his
          site to France, I think it should either be kept as is (and no-one but Scott
          has access to the whole content, as far as I know) or completely rewritten,
          using a CMS which would indeed save a lot time, and allow more functions -
          like new entries or minor corrections, for a limited number of contributors
          with the relevant permissions.

          Not that the purely informative part is not instructive enough in itself, I
          saved it years ago.
          But please don't all rush on HTTracks together, or we'll do know why the
          server is getting slow! ;-))

          Patrice

          -----Message d'origine-----
          From: Richard Lund
          Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 2:27 AM
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Anyone know why the main site is down?

          First of all:
          Please do NOT hit the Delete button :-)

          Second, I was able to get to the site today (just now), so at least it
          is not completely down...

          But it is slow and seems a little unreliable right now...
          This thread alarmed be to the degree that I am now attempting to
          download the entire site just to have an archive should the worst
          happen. So far I am not having too much luck (timeouts and other
          errors), but I'll keep trying. This great collection must be preserved!
        • Bob Smith
          Dear Richard, I ve just downloaded and played the Seven Gallon Jug Band s Wipe Em Off without any problems. The site opened almost instantaneously and the
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 3, 2010
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            Dear Richard,

            I've just downloaded and played the Seven Gallon Jug Band's "Wipe 'Em Off" without any problems. The site opened almost instantaneously and the recording downloaded at the speed I'm used to and Real Player started straight away.
            I've downloaded a lot of recordings from the Red Hot Jazz Archive and these are stored on two separate external hard discs as mp3 files.
            I should be interested to know which recordings aren't available of those in yellow text, so that I can try them.
            I offered some time ago to receive the names of "rogue" recordings so that I could send a batch of these to Scott. I quite understand that Scott is too busy to answer E-mails about single requests, but I assume he would be interested in making a collective reparation to the site.

            Kind Regards

            Bob Smith


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • patrice.champarou@free.fr
            ... From: bernice joffe Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 6:38 AM To: redhotjazz@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Anyone know why the main site is down?
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 3, 2010
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              -----Message d'origine-----
              From: bernice joffe
              Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 6:38 AM
              To: redhotjazz@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Anyone know why the main site is down?


              > has the owner decided to disband?

              The short answer is that we do not know, and wish we did.

              Of course I won't delete the group, and it it obvious that if, for whatever
              reason, Scott has decided to stay away, his decision has to be respected.
              What is, I think, quite unfair, is to refuse saying so once and for all - at
              least to one of the people he used to be in touch with. Not excluding the
              possibility that something serious happened to him, which keeps me just as
              worried.

              There is still a link to his bouncing email address on the welcome page of
              the RHJ website, which is probably quite disappointing for visitors, but not
              directly our problem.
              But there is also one to the group's webpage, suggesting that this Yahoo
              group is the official, related mailing-list.
              This was quite nice when Scott was still with us, but it has now created a
              very ambiguous and awkward situation.

              I get subscription requests *every week*, all year long, by first-time
              visitors who seldom take time to read what this group is about. Most never
              post a word, many unsubscribe after a couple of days or weeks, probably
              expecting to receive some kind of newsletter or whatever... not mentioning
              the calls for help and questions regarding the website itself, which I keep
              receiving as the group-owner, and keep patiently replying just to explain
              there is nothing I or anyone I know can do about it.

              I cannot get rid of this hassle by allowing just "anyone" to the group
              without first checking they are (most likely) real people, we would be
              instantly flooded with spam - no joke, the server keeps automatically
              rejecting lots of ads sent by spamming robots with the reason "not
              subscribed".
              And I cannot decide to close subscriptions either, it would be the opposite
              of the policy which Michael and I tried to define in the first place:
              keeping an open place for discussion between people who are sometimes
              discovering pre-war jazz, and confirmed specialists - plus a lot of
              "in-betweens" like myself ;-)

              I took precautions from the start to keep the group from being "abandoned",
              even if I happened to vanish myself. I am sorry to understand that Scott did
              not bother lending anyone the "keys" to his website, which of course cannot
              be argued... but be the assumption correct or not, I think the least would
              be to let us/me/someone know.

              Patrice

              P.S. the group's server seems to have temporary problems, not warning me of
              pending messages or subscription requests for a couple of days. This does
              not only concern new members, but just anyone, since Yahoo sometimes fancies
              marking messages as spam without any obvious reason, and we have to go and
              "unlock" them.
            • Nigel Burlinson
              I, too, live in France and I just opened the site and listened to a recording without any problems at all! Nigel Burlinson. ... From: patrice.champarou@free.fr
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 3, 2010
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                I, too, live in France and I just opened the site and listened to a
                recording without any problems at all!

                Nigel Burlinson.
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: patrice.champarou@...
                To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 2:51 PM
                Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Anyone know why the main site is down?



                -----Message d'origine-----
                From: bernice joffe
                Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 6:38 AM
                To: redhotjazz@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Anyone know why the main site is down?

                > has the owner decided to disband?

                The short answer is that we do not know, and wish we did.

                Of course I won't delete the group, and it it obvious that if, for whatever
                reason, Scott has decided to stay away, his decision has to be respected.
                What is, I think, quite unfair, is to refuse saying so once and for all - at
                least to one of the people he used to be in touch with. Not excluding the
                possibility that something serious happened to him, which keeps me just as
                worried.

                There is still a link to his bouncing email address on the welcome page of
                the RHJ website, which is probably quite disappointing for visitors, but not
                directly our problem.
                But there is also one to the group's webpage, suggesting that this Yahoo
                group is the official, related mailing-list.
                This was quite nice when Scott was still with us, but it has now created a
                very ambiguous and awkward situation.

                I get subscription requests *every week*, all year long, by first-time
                visitors who seldom take time to read what this group is about. Most never
                post a word, many unsubscribe after a couple of days or weeks, probably
                expecting to receive some kind of newsletter or whatever... not mentioning
                the calls for help and questions regarding the website itself, which I keep
                receiving as the group-owner, and keep patiently replying just to explain
                there is nothing I or anyone I know can do about it.

                I cannot get rid of this hassle by allowing just "anyone" to the group
                without first checking they are (most likely) real people, we would be
                instantly flooded with spam - no joke, the server keeps automatically
                rejecting lots of ads sent by spamming robots with the reason "not
                subscribed".
                And I cannot decide to close subscriptions either, it would be the opposite
                of the policy which Michael and I tried to define in the first place:
                keeping an open place for discussion between people who are sometimes
                discovering pre-war jazz, and confirmed specialists - plus a lot of
                "in-betweens" like myself ;-)

                I took precautions from the start to keep the group from being "abandoned",
                even if I happened to vanish myself. I am sorry to understand that Scott did
                not bother lending anyone the "keys" to his website, which of course cannot
                be argued... but be the assumption correct or not, I think the least would
                be to let us/me/someone know.

                Patrice

                P.S. the group's server seems to have temporary problems, not warning me of
                pending messages or subscription requests for a couple of days. This does
                not only concern new members, but just anyone, since Yahoo sometimes fancies
                marking messages as spam without any obvious reason, and we have to go and
                "unlock" them.





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Richard Lund
                Sorry, too late :-) I am using httracks actually after trying a few others that just didn t work at all... My hope is that I can download all the RAM files,
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 3, 2010
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                  Sorry, too late :-)
                  I am using httracks actually after trying a few others that just didn't
                  work at all...
                  My hope is that I can download all the RAM files, parse them into one
                  large text file and have a Real Audio downloader pull them all when it's
                  done.
                  But I am encountering quite a few 404 (page/object not found) errors.
                  The program ran overnight and just finished its first run, so I told it
                  to go again.
                  The program IS fairly slow given my fast connection, so I don't think
                  I'm overloading the server :-)


                  On 12/3/2010 4:08 AM, patrice.champarou@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Sorry for the tecchy discussion here, but Richard, just to save you and
                  > anyone else a lot of disappointment :
                  > you *can* download the whole site, but you'll only get the pages, not the
                  > soundfiles which are stored in
                  > a protected folder, and "called" by separate streaming files (all in the
                  > "songs" folder).
                  > These are not the songs themselves, but .ram files, so a backup of the
                  > site
                  > on your computer won't work.
                  > Unless, of course, you have enough time on your side to record
                  > thousands of
                  > samples, convert, rename and reorganize them into your own folders, and
                  > rewrite all links in each of the html pages. I am too busy/lazy to
                  > make an
                  > estimation of the time it would take...
                  >
                  > I already thought of these problems when Scott was considering moving his
                  > site to France, I think it should either be kept as is (and no-one but
                  > Scott
                  > has access to the whole content, as far as I know) or completely
                  > rewritten,
                  > using a CMS which would indeed save a lot time, and allow more
                  > functions -
                  > like new entries or minor corrections, for a limited number of
                  > contributors
                  > with the relevant permissions.
                  >
                  > Not that the purely informative part is not instructive enough in
                  > itself, I
                  > saved it years ago.
                  > But please don't all rush on HTTracks together, or we'll do know why the
                  > server is getting slow! ;-))
                  >
                  > Patrice
                  >
                  > -----Message d'origine-----
                  > From: Richard Lund
                  > Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 2:27 AM
                  > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Anyone know why the main site is down?
                  >
                  > First of all:
                  > Please do NOT hit the Delete button :-)
                  >
                  > Second, I was able to get to the site today (just now), so at least it
                  > is not completely down...
                  >
                  > But it is slow and seems a little unreliable right now...
                  > This thread alarmed be to the degree that I am now attempting to
                  > download the entire site just to have an archive should the worst
                  > happen. So far I am not having too much luck (timeouts and other
                  > errors), but I'll keep trying. This great collection must be preserved!
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Richard Lund
                  Well, after 3 days of experimenting I had to finally give up on downloading/archiving the site... Apart from the fact that I received at least 2 dozen file
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 4, 2010
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                    Well, after 3 days of experimenting I had to finally give up on
                    downloading/archiving the site...
                    Apart from the fact that I received at least 2 dozen "file not found"
                    errors, I could not find a program that would allow me to batch download
                    the over 9,000 (!!!) song files...
                    I was able to get the URLs from the header files and combine them into
                    one text file, but there is no reliable program out there that will a)
                    load a list of URLs, b) download the old PNM protocol and c) work
                    without crashing randomly...
                    In fact, Streambox was the only program that came close, but it crashes
                    to frequently that the work I'd have to put into keeping it going would
                    not make it worth the little time I have available.

                    I can only hope that Scott finally will answer again and let us know of
                    his plans.

                    If he should contact someone, I would like to offer an alternate
                    technology for serving the audio files - they could be stored in better
                    quality as MP3 files and played through a Flash interface (which is a
                    lot more common to find pre-installed than Real Player). Hopefully he
                    kept the original quality sound bites archived somewhere...

                    Anyway, that's neither here nor there until he surfaces again.

                    In any case, except for some "file not found" errors, the few audio
                    files that the program tried to download were downloaded successfully,
                    so it would seem that at least most of the site is still intact.
                  • patrice.champarou@free.fr
                    I personally wish this discussion to be over, but since (for once) I started replying to a query regarding the RHJ site, here we go : The most important thing
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 4, 2010
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                      I personally wish this discussion to be over, but since (for once) I started
                      replying to a query regarding the RHJ site, here we go :

                      The most important thing (which I already mentioned) is, I think, that we
                      can expect the site to keep working at least until December 2011.
                      The have been so many temporary failures over the years that I suppose the
                      safest thing, now that we've lost concact with Scott, is to wait until
                      things are settled.

                      Another comment is that I think one of the reasons why Scott chose the
                      realaudio format was that he simply did not want his files to be downloaded.

                      Plenty of things have changed since then, not only the actual downloading
                      facility offered by the latest version of the Realplayer, but also the
                      amazing number of free downloads now offered all over the web, with the more
                      or less valid excuse of public domain status.

                      Keeping a streaming protocol, rather than dowloadable mp3's with better
                      sound quality is, among other things, a way to expressly support the efforts
                      of the few small records companies which still remaster, publish, and of
                      course, expect to sell pre-war music. I suppose I do not have to elaborate
                      any further about this.
                      Another, very important thing is that Scott's labor of love cannot be
                      compared to large streaming websites supported by ads and/or some related
                      commercial activities, which can afford to pay for broadcasting music. We
                      did fear, a couple of years ago, that new directives regarding online
                      radios in the US might kill the Archives for good, I do not know much about
                      these questions but if I consider the crazy ambiguities of French law, I
                      assume the risk is still pending.

                      This is why I've always tried to be as discreet as possible about
                      downloading, and I encourage everyone here to do the same. Of course I am
                      not candid, the possibility of capturing online music has always existed, be
                      it only by recording what comes out of your soundcard.

                      I am not exerting any censorship here, but please remember that discussing
                      some questions privately with other members you know or trust is still a
                      possibility, and sometimes a more efficient one than making them public. Up
                      to your judgement, and I must add that this group is the only one I've known
                      or run where there are nearly no "moderating" problems, because of
                      everyone's self-discipline.

                      Best,

                      Patrice


                      -----Message d'origine-----
                      From: Richard Lund
                      Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 9:04 PM
                      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Anyone know why the main site is down?

                      Well, after 3 days of experimenting I had to finally give up on
                      downloading/archiving the site...
                      Apart from the fact that I received at least 2 dozen "file not found"
                      errors, I could not find a program that would allow me to batch download
                      the over 9,000 (!!!) song files...
                      I was able to get the URLs from the header files and combine them into
                      one text file, but there is no reliable program out there that will a)
                      load a list of URLs, b) download the old PNM protocol and c) work
                      without crashing randomly...
                      In fact, Streambox was the only program that came close, but it crashes
                      to frequently that the work I'd have to put into keeping it going would
                      not make it worth the little time I have available.

                      I can only hope that Scott finally will answer again and let us know of
                      his plans.

                      If he should contact someone, I would like to offer an alternate
                      technology for serving the audio files - they could be stored in better
                      quality as MP3 files and played through a Flash interface (which is a
                      lot more common to find pre-installed than Real Player). Hopefully he
                      kept the original quality sound bites archived somewhere...

                      Anyway, that's neither here nor there until he surfaces again.

                      In any case, except for some "file not found" errors, the few audio
                      files that the program tried to download were downloaded successfully,
                      so it would seem that at least most of the site is still intact.
                    • patrice.champarou@free.fr
                      ... From: myself ... I meant to add next time the site is down .
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 4, 2010
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                        -----Message d'origine-----
                        From: myself

                        >TheRE have been so many temporary failures over the years that I suppose
                        >the
                        > safest thing (...) is to wait until things are settled.

                        I meant to add "next time the site is down".
                      • Richard Lund
                        Sorry, I guess I went a little overboard with this, partially because of my fear that the site might disappear some day... If this wasn t a realistic
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 4, 2010
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                          Sorry, I guess I went a little overboard with this, partially because
                          of my fear that the site might disappear some day...
                          If this wasn't a realistic possibility, I would never have said anything
                          publicly, and now after reading your last message I will stop talking
                          about it - done.
                          One clarification: MP3s when played through a Flash interface are not
                          particularly easy to download either unless you know a few tricks.
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